Usable (and Good) NFE (both non- and with Eviolite) Pokemon in RU

So I think Defensive Electabuzz is definitely worth using. It's a pretty good special wall considering that Paralysis and STAB Electric are pretty relevant to the metagame. It may not have many resists but Electric and Flying are pretty nice with Rotom and Honchkrow being very popular. Don't worry about fully running Defense for Static abuse because you also have Discharge to paralyze with. Getting that ~440 SpD is better than going mixed and being well rounded but not quite a wall on either side. Also when you consider anything with Earthquake (which isn't a contact move) will just use that it's not all that worth it. I used it on a balanced team and it checks a lot of threats.

The set is:
Electabuzz @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe, Calm
Discharge
Hidden Power Ice
Rest
Sleep Talk

Pretty simple really - wall things and spread paralysis. This combo-ed really well with my favorite RU set (Stall-breaker Samurott) but you could substitute any slow, bulky attacker as a great teammate for it.
 
Natu isn't used because
1. Let's face it, its ridiculously easy to predict a switch-in to a Natu
2. Even if you do bounce Rocks/ Spikes, its not going to force out anything else. Its not like Espeon where it can actually deal damage to common entry hazards pokes, whereas Natu can beat... Ferroseed... if the other player is stupid. Steelix, Crustle, Cloydol, you name it can all beat Natu.
You're right it's terrible, It's more or less a dead weight, BUT is it usable? That's the question of the thread.

Besides Ferroseed being number 8 in the tier with 8.9% usage means it has it's niche, it also walls Gligar that dosen't use an offensive move besides Earthquake. It can probably catch Smeargle off guard if you can predict a spore and stops Tangela cold unless it's carrying HP-something instead of stab Giga Drain.

I wonder how it does against Mandibuzz?

Sadly it can't do much to everyone else, except take a hit and status them. I reckon it was worth a mention.
 
So I think Defensive Electabuzz is definitely worth using. It's a pretty good special wall considering that Paralysis and STAB Electric are pretty relevant to the metagame. It may not have many resists but Electric and Flying are pretty nice with Rotom and Honchkrow being very popular. Don't worry about fully running Defense for Static abuse because you also have Discharge to paralyze with. Getting that ~440 SpD is better than going mixed and being well rounded but not quite a wall on either side. Also when you consider anything with Earthquake (which isn't a contact move) will just use that it's not all that worth it. I used it on a balanced team and it checks a lot of threats.

The set is:
Electabuzz @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe, Calm
Discharge
Hidden Power Ice
Rest
Sleep Talk

Pretty simple really - wall things and spread paralysis. This combo-ed really well with my favorite RU set (Stall-breaker Samurott) but you could substitute any slow, bulky attacker as a great teammate for it.
What would that be like in comparison to Ampharos? Ampharos has much higher HP and although Electivire has higher defenses with Eviolite, I doubt its by THAT much and Ampharos has Leftovers. Ampharos can also do a lot more with Discharge than Electabuzz.
 
What would that be like in comparison to Ampharos? Ampharos has much higher HP and although Electivire has higher defenses with Eviolite, I doubt its by THAT much and Ampharos has Leftovers. Ampharos can also do a lot more with Discharge than Electabuzz.
Lest we forget Cotton Guard...
 

Agonist

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And it get Heal Bell, which is useful. Plus dual screens (reflect's an egg move).
 
So this thread needs a little bit of updating in the OP because of Comments like This is a great Yanmega check and When Spooky Manor gets released etc...

Speaking of Spooky Manor, since I had to replace my Alakazam, I started thinking... (thinking is dangerous and not recommended) "What is just like Alakazam, except less good?" My first thought was Porygon-Z and then I thought, Why not Kadabra (\/)(;,,;)(\/)?

Kadabra@Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
-Substitute
-Psychic/Psytrike
-Shadow Ball
-Charge Beam / HP Fighting

I chose to run Life Orb over Focus Sash or Eviolite because: I prefer the Substitute set and Kadabra is just too frail to use any other set up move (even Calm Mind).

Charge Beam, that sounds weird, doesn't it? Indeed it does. My initial thought was to use Signal Beam since Kadabra doesn't get Focus Blast and I wanted to be able to hit Krookodile/Crawdaunt and the Grass types (that there seems to be more and more of). Alas, Signal Beam is illegal in conjunction with Magic Guard.

HP Fighting is a viable choice for coverage. It hits a lost of things that would otherwise completely wall Kadabra. Another option, that I tried on a complete whim and love now, is Charge Beam. If you can fire one off to clean something up or from behind a sub (or on a predicted Honchkrow switch-in), well, +1 on an already impressive base 120 Special attack is pretty sweet. Kadabra also has an impressive 105 base speed putting it well above several of the major offensive threats.
 

macle

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need more mentions of rhydon. the only set posted so far as been a defensive one. Rhydon is so powerful man.

You can use sword dance + rock polish with stone edge + eq or get rid of sword dance and throw on a coverage move or sr (if you need it for your team). No evolite required. it sets up on a shit ton of pokemon its unbelievable.
 
So this thread needs a little bit of updating in the OP because of Comments like This is a great Yanmega check and When Spooky Manor gets released etc...

Speaking of Spooky Manor, since I had to replace my Alakazam, I started thinking... (thinking is dangerous and not recommended) "What is just like Alakazam, except less good?" My first thought was Porygon-Z and then I thought, Why not Kadabra (\/)(;,,;)(\/)?

Kadabra@Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
-Substitute
-Psychic/Psytrike
-Shadow Ball
-Charge Beam / HP Fighting

I chose to run Life Orb over Focus Sash or Eviolite because: I prefer the Substitute set and Kadabra is just too frail to use any other set up move (even Calm Mind).

Charge Beam, that sounds weird, doesn't it? Indeed it does. My initial thought was to use Signal Beam since Kadabra doesn't get Focus Blast and I wanted to be able to hit Krookodile/Crawdaunt and the Grass types (that there seems to be more and more of). Alas, Signal Beam is illegal in conjunction with Magic Guard.

HP Fighting is a viable choice for coverage. It hits a lost of things that would otherwise completely wall Kadabra. Another option, that I tried on a complete whim and love now, is Charge Beam. If you can fire one off to clean something up or from behind a sub (or on a predicted Honchkrow switch-in), well, +1 on an already impressive base 120 Special attack is pretty sweet. Kadabra also has an impressive 105 base speed putting it well above several of the major offensive threats.
I recommend you take those 4 EVs in HP and put them somewhere else like Def/spD (not that the 4 Evs will make a difference lol.

The reason why is because the 4 EVs in Hop changes your HP stat from 221 to 222, 221 is better because it allows your Kadabra to create 4 substitues leaving you with 1 HP, while 222 only allows you to create 3 subs, the extra sub is more likely to help you in the long run.
 

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Wrong, 222 is not divisible by four and after four Substitutes would leave Kadabra with 2 HP overall. However, I do agree that the 4 EVs should be placed elsewhere as they provide no benefit whatsoever as opposed to only a minor (miniscule) benefit.
 
^ I already know 222 isn't divisible by 4, but will the game allow you to create 4 substitutes if you have 222 HP? I haven't tested it myself but I always assume that if you want to create 4 substitutes without leftovers or other forms of healing (ie leech seed) you need a number divisible by 4 plus 1 HP.
 
As long as it isn't divisible by 4, you will have the remaining number of HP left and will be able to make 4 substitutes at full health, so that'll work out fine.

Frankly, i think a full defensive scyther might work. Just thinking about it gives me shivers, since even though offensively it's solidly walled by a few pokemon, if you made it defensive it could take a lot of hits and has a few neat resists in the tier:

Scyther @ Eviolite
248 HP/252 Def/8 SpDef
Impish / Technician

Toxic
Roost
Knock Off
Light Screen/U-turn

Just shows up and annoys the opponent. Toxic+Roost lets it stall fairly well, and it has good natural speed. Light Screen helps it tank special attacks, Knock Off is a great all-around move that helps your team clear out other Eviolite walls, and U-turn has good utility to scout the opponent and get sweepers in. Full Special defense would let it be a check to Kadabra and Duosion, surviving LO Charge Beam and LO Psychic at +1 if stealth rock is kept off the field and cleaning them up with U-turn. The only thing that can really 1hko it is a boosted or stab Stone Edge, as anything short of a x4 weakness can be roosted off and stalled out with full defense investment. Yeah, he will always lose to Rhydon, but a toxic'ed Rhydon with no Life Orb/Eviolite is easier for your team to deal with than anything else.
 
Wrong, 222 is not divisible by four and after four Substitutes would leave Kadabra with 2 HP overall. However, I do agree that the 4 EVs should be placed elsewhere as they provide no benefit whatsoever as opposed to only a minor (miniscule) benefit.
The only reallocation would be to put it into SDef and even that will probably never make a difference. Let's face it 40/30/70 isn't doing anyone any good. Probably ever. The 1 point those last 4 EVs give is tantamount to worthless.





Anyway


Another set I've been having some real fun with is a hindrance Misdreavus. I've been using it a bulkier but overall less ridiculous replacement for Sableye.

Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SDef
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball / Perish Song
- Will-O-Wisp
- Thunder Wave
- Pain Split

With eviolite Misdreavus' Def and SDef both get to an impressive 360 and the slightly lowered HP stat serves to make Pain Split a little more effective. People seem to forget that Misdreavus can even learn t-wave and W-o-W is still fantastic for systematically crippling physical attackers. I generally run Shadow Ball over perish song to let Missy beat other ghost types (like Rotom) but it deserves a mention.
 

Oglemi

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aaaa I totally forgot about this thread :x

OK I'll update the OP occassionally but keep up the good discussion peeps. Remember any forum presense you guys have will go towards your standing in being chosen to be on the Council!

As for continuing the conversation:

I've actually never used Misdreavus, but every time I face one I'm extremely surprised by its bulk. I have to ask Vratix, why a physically defensive spread? Especially since you have Will-O-Wisp, and Misdreavus has a very very good Special Defense stat with Eviolite and you should capitalize on that. Maybe provide some damage calcs with your spread?

Also, where have all the Munchlax gone? What kind of sets are people using with Munchlax and what kind of EV spreads?
 
Vratix, I wrote up this whole treatise on EV spreads, not realizing you had lowered the HP to make Pain Split more effective. Still, I'm going to post this because I've seen many players make this mistake and I think it could do some of them some good. Also, I think the max HP spread will be better for your Misdreavus regardless.

First, I will say that when investing bulk into a pokemon you should almost always invest in HP first. Consider this the default action that should only be strayed away from in special circumstances.

If you are going to invest EV's in Def or SpD without the HP stat being maxed, then in most cases two conditions should be met:

1. The HP stat is more than double the Def and SpD stats.
2. You are going for mixed bulk rather than maxing out a particular stat.

Let me use Shiftry as an example:

First of all, we are talking about a Swords Dance sweeper, so you want 252 Atk EV's and an Adamant nature, so you can hit as hard as possible.

Next, hit a certain speed threshold. 208 will outspeed 4 Spe base 85's, which is most walls, so let's just say that's our speed of choice. This requires 48 EV's.

We are left with 210 EV's to invest in bulk. At this point, Shiftry has 321 HP and 156 in both defense stats. 321 is more than double 156, so we want to increase each defense stat until they are half the HP stat. 16 EV's a piece brings the defenses up to 160, about half of the HP. Now, in order to maintain this ratio, you need to put twice as many of the remaining EV's into HP as into each defense. To do this, put half of the remaining EV's into HP, and split the other half between Def and SpD. This yields defensive stats of 343 HP, 177 Def, 177 SpD and an EV spread of 88 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Def / 60 SpD / 48 Spe. In this case, 88 HP / 60 Def / 60 SpD is bulkier than 210 HP would have been. This is entirely because the HP is high enough to become more than double the defenses, and is made simpler by the Def and SpD being the same.

Let's look at another example, Golurk:

Again, we want 252 Atk and Adamant.

44 Spe we want to outpace Empoleon (this is a UU example I know).

we now have 208 EV's left over to invest in bulk. Lets look at those defensive stats. 319 HP, 196 Def, 196 SpD. This is really simple, put 208 EV's in HP and it's still not more than double the defense stats. This is what you will be doing 99% of the time when investing 252 or less EV's into bulk.

Now lets look at Chansey:

First, when deciding whether the HP is more than double the defenses, you should be looking at the defenses before eviolite, not after.

No Atk or Spe EV's, we are investing entirely in bulk.

Wow, that HP stat is waaaay higher than the Def or SpD stats, so we should invest in defenses before HP, right? Not necessarily. Chansey has obscene SpD even without investment, whereas it's Def can be penetrated by powerful attackers. Most often Chansey should be EVed 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD, because you want to get as much physical defense as possible, which requires a full investment it both Defense and HP. This is usually what you'll be doing with walls. You'll invest in full HP and one of the defense stats in order to max out on one side of the spectrum, and take advantage of the fact that most attackers carry all physical or all special attacks. Chansey is an odd case because it's uninvested SpD is already outstanding. Usually, you will be neglecting one of the defenses not because it is inferior and not as much worth investing in, and you'd rather be a solid wall on one side than a mediocre wall on two.

Now lets get to your Misdreavus.

Again we are investing all of our EV's into bulk.

The defense stats are 261 HP, 171 Def, and 206 SpD. The HP is not even close to double either defense, so we put EV's in HP. 252 EV's later, the HP is 324. We never exceeded double either defense, so there is no reason whatsoever not to put a full HP investment in. If we were looking max defense on one side of the spectrum (we probably should), then we wouldn't care what the relative HP and Defense stats were, we'd just go for a standard 252 / 252 / 4 spread and call it a day. However, for the sake of argument, we are going for mixed bulk and want to take this into consideration.

As an arbitrary cutoff for the Special bulk we want, I'm giong to use the Special bulk of your 120 HP / 252 Def / 136 SDef spread. with 252 HP EV's already invested, 40 SpD EV's give us the same level (ever so slightly better, actually) of special bulk as with your spread. With that out of the way, we throw the rest into Def and give it a Bold nature, since it seemed like the gist of your spread was to go for physical bulk. The Special bulk is about the same, as I pointed out, so lets test a physical attack.

CB Entei Flare Blitz vs. 120 HP / 252 Def Bold Mismagius: 67% - 78.7%

CB Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 218 Def Bold Mismagius: 62.3% - 73.5%

Overall you're taking about 7.5% less damage from physical attacks. That's nearly as much difference as between running a neutral or boosting nature. This almost certainly outweighs the benefits of making Pain Split slightly stronger. Misdreavus' fully invested HP of 324 is pretty low, anyway. Pain Split is really only reliable on offensive pokemon like Rotom who are using it on full health switch-ins and then blasting them with an attack. Misdreavus is going to be weakening things with Will-o-Wisp and with weak attacks, meaning that it will be hard to really get good use out of Pain Split anyway. You'd be better off making sure you can survive as many attacks at full health as possible.

Honestly I'd rather just run 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm or 252 HP / 252 Def Bold, though. Pick your side and stick to it, I say. With Will-o-Wisp you can cripple a lot of physical attackers, and the SpD is much higher with full investment, so that would be my preferred spread.
 
Vratix, I wrote up this whole treatise on EV spreads, not realizing you had lowered the HP to make Pain Split more effective. Still, I'm going to post this because I've seen many players make this mistake and I think it could do some of them some good. Also, I think the max HP spread will be better for your Misdreavus regardless.
I am testing the max HP spread out now. To be honest, it's very similar and if someone had changed it without telling me I don't think I would have noticed. The amount of mitigated damage probably adds up but frankly, it's hard to tell mid-battle.

Back on topic



Anyway, other NFEs that I have noticed absent from the OP but haven't tested personally:

with Eviolite

Rapid Spin Wartortle
Mini-pert Marshtomp
Walling Lickitung (ran into a few, it's very tough to take out)
Baton Pass Aipom

without it
LO Yanma (same problem as Kadabra, lacking the oomph of its final form but still ok for the tier)
Lead/LO Aipom
 
Out of curisoity, what does Aipom offer over Persian as a Lead/LO attacker? If I recall correctly, Persian has better speed, slightly better bulk, Technician and Hypnosis/Switcheroo/NP over Aipom.
 
Out of curisoity, what does Aipom offer over Persian as a Lead/LO attacker? If I recall correctly, Persian has better speed, slightly better bulk, Technician and Hypnosis/Switcheroo/NP over Aipom.
You are quite right. I forgot about persian's existance because this is not gen1 but Lead/LO Persian outclasses Aipom in every way.

I still see merit in the BP set being so few pokemon learn BP with anything useful to give in this tier so sending Nasty Plots about could be pretty nice.
 

marilli

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Nah, actually there's a lot of pokemon that can learn BP with something useful to give. In fact it seems like most of the notable baton passers are in RU or below. The list includes: Smeargle, Ninjask, Gorebyss & Huntail, Volbeat & Illumise, and others I can't really think of. Even in upper tiers, RU baton passers like Durant is commonly used because of its rare steel typing. Only notable baton passers RU doesn't have are Mew and Espeon. I'd rather use BP Volbeat with Tail Glow or Smashpass Smeargle over NP Aipom any day.
 
^ Gligar, Mr. Mime, Volbeat... the list just goes on and on.

Also, GOLBAT. Holy crap that thing is bulky with an Eviolite and a 252 Hp/172 Def/84 SpD spread. It completely walls Lilligant after the Sleep Clause is in play and does a fine job of stopping Moxie Honchkrow as well, and it's an excellent check to most every Fighting-type. Durant hates the thing almost as much as Gligar. IIRC Lilligant Petal Dance 3HKOs (which is blocked by Roost) and Medicham HJK does practically nothing.

Regirock is kinda a bajillion times better imo, but perhaps I'm missing something
I guess Magnet Pull could work, but I really don't want to use it for that :/
 
Why has no one mentioned an offensive Metang? Its attack and speed are a bit low, but it can make up for that with Hone Claws and Rock Polish, respectively.

I would use this.

Metang
Adamant
EVs: I suck at EVing, but max attack would be used in this, as well as investment in defences.
Eviolite

Hone Claws
Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Zen Headbutt

So here's how this would work. Switch in on a resisted attack, and start boosting with Hone Claws. Zen Headbutt and Meteor Mash will get boosted the most, with the accuracy issues being fixed by Hone Claws, and Earthquake for coverage.
 
I used this on a really fun RU stall team once.

Lickitung@Evolite
Careful
Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Def
Moves:
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Curse
-Dragon Tail

RestTalk has been nerfed, but it was honestly the most reliable set that I tried. Pretty nice phazer on full stall. Even has a chance to sweep later on if hazards are up.
 

Oglemi

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all the numbers in the link of the BW sprites were moved due to the addition of the Arceus Dex pages, so I'll have to go through and fix it eventually
 

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