Data Usage-Based Tier Update for January 2018 (Feb @ #263) (Mar @ #696)

[ehT]

OK rant time.

I'm honestly kinda shocked that we let this Ambipom thing happen. I'm not trying to call out Joey or anything, cause whatever he doesn't care, but why did we let trolling this blatant on this scale impact tiering like this? I'm not saying hold anybody accountable, cause you can't really, but it's kinda ridiculous that any schmuck with enough subs can get power drunk one day and decide to fuck with Smogon and we'll just let it happen. What I am saying is that I think we should develop some sort of method to respond to trolling on this scale. I don't have an answer for exactly what that is, but Joey only gained more subs and made more money from this whole thing, and he's already up for round 2. People with just as, if not more influence than him are taking notes. It's worth thinking about. Smogon's only gonna get bigger and attract more attention, and with that are going to be more people like Joey who use their followers as their personal army. We can't stop that, but we can minimize its impact. This time it was pretty harmless, just some kids laddering with a monkey, but what if Pewdiepie or one of them makes a Showdown live one day and says "Hey bros vote no ban in this suspect". What'll we do then? It's unlikely, but it's only gonna become more likely as Smogon gets bigger.

 

[Jordy]

Ay aim im not here to start shit cuz i clearly offended some ppl with wht i said. Props to u for getting nr 5 w ambi teams but i dont rly see its unique merits might just be me. Also my apologies to anyone else who i mightve offended with “joey dickriders”.

 

[Makeden]

Ambipom is actually useful in UU. You're all getting so mad over nothing, Joey getting top 5 on the ladder with only Ambipom teams and pif saying it proves it.

 

[Ryolain]

Is there a way to incorporate not just percentage of games a Pokemon is used in but also percentage of players using that Pokémon, so that if the usage is heavily concentrated under a handful of users it won’t count towards a rise/drop? In other words, in order to rise a Pokemon would need 3.41% usage *and* usage by at least 5% of players in the tier (or whatever the appropriate number would work out to be). That would prevent one determined player with a bunch of alts from influencing tiers since they’d only end up accounting for, like, .1% of overall players.

 

[Vengeance417]

Hide

 

[GustavoR]

OK rant time.

I'm honestly kinda shocked that we let this Ambipom thing happen. I'm not trying to call out Joey or anything, cause whatever he doesn't care, but why did we let trolling this blatant on this scale impact tiering like this? I'm not saying hold anybody accountable, cause you can't really, but it's kinda ridiculous that any schmuck with enough subs can get power drunk one day and decide to fuck with Smogon and we'll just let it happen. What I am saying is that I think we should develop some sort of method to respond to trolling on this scale. I don't have an answer for exactly what that is, but Joey only gained more subs and made more money from this whole thing, and he's already up for round 2. People with just as, if not more influence than him are taking notes. It's worth thinking about. Smogon's only gonna get bigger and attract more attention, and with that are going to be more people like Joey who use their followers as their personal army. We can't stop that, but we can minimize its impact. This time it was pretty harmless, just some kids laddering with a monkey, but what if Pewdiepie or one of them makes a Showdown live one day and says "Hey bros vote no ban in this suspect". What'll we do then? It's unlikely, but it's only gonna become more likely as Smogon gets bigger.

It's a meme thing I know, but it also shows that Ambi is really viable in UU fren

 

[sumwun]

Houndoom-Mega moved from UU to RU

Is drought going to be banned in RU now?

 

[GustavoR]

Is drought going to be banned in RU now?

Probably

 

[Magii]

And RIP Dugtrio, your descent to tier hell finally finished, aided by Megazard. Rest in pieces old friend.

 

[Bright Powder Cena]

Ambipom is actually useful in UU. You're all getting so mad over nothing, Joey getting top 5 on the ladder with only Ambipom teams and pif saying it proves it.

Joey getting top 5 on the ladder says more about the quality of the ladder than it does about the viability of Ambipom.

 

[GustavoR]

Joey getting top 5 on the ladder says more about the quality of the ladder than it does about the viability of Ambipom.

I don't see it as a bad ladder, it just shows that any Pokémon can work in any tier with the proper team support
Isn't that the point of Smogon? To prove creativity and letting you try different strategies with the Pokémon you want (as long as they're not banned)

 

[Marty]

Houndoom-Mega moved from UU to RU

Is drought going to be banned in RU now?

This didn't actually happen; I already updated the tiers on Showdown and specifically ignored this because of the post right under the post you quoted.

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Thing is, I'm sure Ambipom will become noobtrap and might actually stay for a while. There always are noobs who just put random mons they see in a tier together, achieve some wins low-ladder, and contribute usage. If Donphan ever drops to NU, I'm sure it'd never rise again. But now noobs see it's RU and instant think it is viable.

 

[GJLimeade]

OK rant time.

I'm honestly kinda shocked that we let this Ambipom thing happen. I'm not trying to call out Joey or anything, cause whatever he doesn't care, but why did we let trolling this blatant on this scale impact tiering like this? I'm not saying hold anybody accountable, cause you can't really, but it's kinda ridiculous that any schmuck with enough subs can get power drunk one day and decide to fuck with Smogon and we'll just let it happen. What I am saying is that I think we should develop some sort of method to respond to trolling on this scale. I don't have an answer for exactly what that is, but Joey only gained more subs and made more money from this whole thing, and he's already up for round 2. People with just as, if not more influence than him are taking notes. It's worth thinking about. Smogon's only gonna get bigger and attract more attention, and with that are going to be more people like Joey who use their followers as their personal army. We can't stop that, but we can minimize its impact. This time it was pretty harmless, just some kids laddering with a monkey, but what if Pewdiepie or one of them makes a Showdown live one day and says "Hey bros vote no ban in this suspect". What'll we do then? It's unlikely, but it's only gonna become more likely as Smogon gets bigger.

You actually think a bunch of Pewdiepie or even Verlis fans would be good enough to get reqs lol

 

[gloobi]

why so triggered tho

if anything it showed that tier based on usage never was and never will be about a pokemon viability, it's merely trends and that ambipom thing is just another example

 

[Escavalier Royale]

You actually think a bunch of Pewdiepie or even Verlis fans would be good enough to get reqs lol

In case of Verlis likely no. But PDP has so many fans that at least a few of them might be able to get reqs and seriously influence the outcome.

 

[Ryolain]

why so triggered tho

if anything it showed that tier based on usage never was and never will be about a pokemon viability, it's merely trends and that ambipom thing is just another example

That’s never been in question given that the tiers are usage-based - there have always been disconnects between usage and viability. The issue is that this isn’t even evidence of a trend, it’s evidence of one person gaming the stats.

 

[sumwun]

Is this really worse than the time Smeargle moved to OU?

 

[GustavoR]

Is this really worse than the time Smeargle moved to OU?

Maybe

 

[Escavalier Royale]

Smeargle actually was pretty viable. Using Ambipom is just for the sake of using Ambipom.

Also, Mamoswine rising from this is crossing the border of acceptability. Mamoswine is a really good mon in UU, and if it were to rise just because one guy desperately wants some subs and ad revenue then that'd just be unfair. Like dealing with Gliscor isn't hard enough already.
And that Mamoswine WILL rise if it keeps going like this. I have experienced how easy it is to win low-ladder OU with some skill (I have a team using Parasect that succeeds low-ladder, which just proves this)

 

[tondas]

I know this thread's kinda getting out of hand but I'd like to think this whole ordeal can be a learning experience.

If someone like aim can make something rise just out of their own interest then there's clearly a flaw in the system. I know a few people that have discussed restrictions on quick rises and I feel as if we need that sort of control so that a scenario like this doesn't happen at a much larger level. This is especially considering the fact that Ambipom didn't have that absurd usage in RU, in between UU and NU. It's unfair for lower tier players that they don't have control over this and that quickrises can occur with this little effort, it's not necessarily the fact that Ambi is unorthodox in a UU setting.

I propose a system revamping so that quickrises are no longer percentage based if anything at all. If I had thousands of subs and I used a PU mon in RU with SOME success, then I've effectively exploited the system of quickrises. This whole experience opened up the doors for thousands of people do to the same and mess up what makes Smogon what it is in the first place. Even if competent players are doing well with something like Ambipom in UU, just memeing around with it for a week or so is enough to merit a quickrise with the usage stats. This in and of itself is...uncompetitive to say the least.

I'm actually quite grateful that aim did this with Ambi instead of something that'd negativity impact a tier, and that he encouraged discussion for improving our tiering system. If he can do it, ANYONE can. I hope this isn't practicing any form of elitism but quickrises are shown to just not work anymore.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

OK rant time.

I'm honestly kinda shocked that we let this Ambipom thing happen. I'm not trying to call out Joey or anything, cause whatever he doesn't care, but why did we let trolling this blatant on this scale impact tiering like this? I'm not saying hold anybody accountable, cause you can't really, but it's kinda ridiculous that any schmuck with enough subs can get power drunk one day and decide to fuck with Smogon and we'll just let it happen. What I am saying is that I think we should develop some sort of method to respond to trolling on this scale. I don't have an answer for exactly what that is, but Joey only gained more subs and made more money from this whole thing, and he's already up for round 2. People with just as, if not more influence than him are taking notes. It's worth thinking about. Smogon's only gonna get bigger and attract more attention, and with that are going to be more people like Joey who use their followers as their personal army. We can't stop that, but we can minimize its impact. This time it was pretty harmless, just some kids laddering with a monkey, but what if Pewdiepie or one of them makes a Showdown live one day and says "Hey bros vote no ban in this suspect". What'll we do then? It's unlikely, but it's only gonna become more likely as Smogon gets bigger.

To be completely frank fuck off. I don't really even play Pokemon anymore but I can't stand cancer like this. This is fucking Pokemon. It's never ever going to be an actual competitive game. Stop pretending like it is. If people want to fuck with the usage they have the right to fuck with the usage and you can't do anything about it. People are allowed to use whatever they like and you can't stop them. If measures were put it place to prevent stuff like this happening then it would hurt the integrity of smogon as a whole and make the tier council's and smogon leadership seem even more elitest and power hungry than they already are.
/Rant

 

[GustavoR]

I know this thread's kinda getting out of hand but I'd like to think this whole ordeal can be a learning experience.

If someone like aim can make something rise out of their own interest then there's clearly a flaw in the system. I know a few people that have discussed restrictions on quick rises and I feel as if we need that sort of control so that a scenario like this doesn't happen at a much larger level. This is especially considering the fact that Ambipom didn't have that absurd usage in RU, in between UU and NU.

I propose a system revamping so that quickrises are no longer percentage based if anything at all. If I had thousands of subs and I used a PU mon in NU with SOME success, then I've effectively exploited the system of quickrises. This whole experience opened up the doors for thousands of people do to the same and mess up what makes Smogon what it is in the first place.

I'm actually quite grateful that aim did this with Ambi instead of something that'd negativity impact a tier, and that he encouraged discussion for improving our tiering system.

EXACTLY fren. I personally don't really see how Ambipom will impact UU in a negative way. All the haters are just trashtalking Joey because he did something that is basically one of Smogon's main points: Prove that any Pokémon can work with the proper team support in higher tiers

 

[Sage]

To be completely frank fuck off. I don't really even play Pokemon anymore but I can't stand cancer like this. This is fucking Pokemon. It's never ever going to be an actual competitive game. Stop pretending like it is. If people want to fuck with the usage they have the right to fuck with the usage and you can't do anything about it. People are allowed to use whatever they like and you can't stop them. If measures were put it place to prevent stuff like this happening then it would hurt the integrity of smogon as a whole and make the tier council's and smogon leadership seem even more elitest and power hungry than they already are.
/Rant

 

[GJLimeade]

In case of Verlis likely no. But PDP has so many fans that at least a few of them might be able to get reqs and seriously influence the outcome.

Pewdiepie finding Showdown and attempting to mess with suspect tests is about as likely as a meteor hitting the earth, but either way if a few of his fans prove themselves good enough to get reqs then they've earned that right anyway (assuming there are plenty of other regular Showdown users participating in it as well).