USM Ubers Analysis Index

[diamondsword92]

I would like to do an Ingrain variation of Celesteela.
- Yes, I know Celesteela doesn't need a new analysis, but I'd like to do it anyways.
- Those who have seen Ingrain know it's bad in theory, but I've found it's so much better in practice.
- And I've found nobody else has analyzed an Ingrain Celesteela.
Therefore, I ask to do Celesteela with Ingrain.

 

[Vengeance417]

I would like to do an Ingrain variation of Celesteela.
- Yes, I know Celesteela doesn't need a new analysis, but I'd like to do it anyways.
- Those who have seen Ingrain know it's bad in theory, but I've found it's so much better in practice.
- And I've found nobody else has analyzed an Ingrain Celesteela.
Therefore, I ask to do Celesteela with Ingrain.

Why would you use Ingrain on Celesteela? You're grounding and trapping yourself for an extra 6% recovery, meaning Primal Groudon or anything with Ground-type coverage just comes in and eliminates you almost for free. Seems like a waste of a moveslot.

 

[diamondsword92]

Why would you use Ingrain on Celesteela? You're grounding and trapping yourself for an extra 6% recovery, meaning Primal Groudon or anything with Ground-type coverage just comes in and eliminates you almost for free. Seems like a waste of a moveslot.

Just trust me, it works. With Leech Seed and Protect, better. And Celesteela can take a Fire Punch from P-Don and E-Quake as well. Overheat's the only OHKO P-Don has.

 

[Vengeance417]

Just trust me, it works. With Leech Seed and Protect, better. And Celesteela can take a Fire Punch from P-Don and E-Quake as well. Overheat's the only OHKO P-Don has.

Saying "just trust me" isn't enough to sell me. You haven't provided any replays proving that this set can do anything, and even on paper, it still sounds bad. Precipice Blades from offensive Pdon does this much:

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 390-458 (98.2 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

Even support overwhelms it:

0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 306-362 (77 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

Let's also not forget that mons who use Earthquake like Necrozma-DM, Mega Salamence, and Ekiller overwhelm it after SD/DD boosts. Ekiller and Mence are also able to Sub in front of Celesteela's face and DD/SD for free with Heavy Slam (post-Intimidate for Mence) unable to break their Subs.

 

[diamondsword92]

Saying "just trust me" isn't enough to sell me. You haven't provided any replays proving that this set can do anything, and even on paper, it still sounds bad. Precipice Blades from offensive Pdon does this much:

252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 390-458 (98.2 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

Even support overwhelms it:

0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 306-362 (77 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Leech Seed recovery

Let's also not forget that mons who use Earthquake like Necrozma-DM, Mega Salamence, and Ekiller overwhelm it after SD/DD boosts. Ekiller and Mence are also able to Sub in front of Celesteela's face and DD/SD for free with Heavy Slam (post-Intimidate for Mence) unable to break their Subs.

True, true, but there's a few things you may not have noticed:
- Protect exists.
- Both analyses of damage ignore Ingrain, so not only is the heal amount lowered in your math, but Celesteela has a free switch. The top one's higher limit will screw Ingrain, but if it doesn't KO, it guarantees at least one Flamethrower or Flash Cannon off, which, when Celesteela faints, makes a revenge kill for, say, Kyogre, much easier.
- The set in question is a special set, meaning Intimidate does nothing.
- Ubers is 6v6, not 1v1, so anyone can simply switch to Marshadow, Kyogre-Primal, etcetera, and therefore completely ignore the fact that the matchup is bad, at least for the time being.
- The set in question is used in practice (mine, at least) where Celesteela faints after some chip damage and lets another Pokemon take down a few Pokemon.
- A switch into Marshadow with a Sash and Spectral Thief exists and is viable.
- Ingrain isn't used first turn. This also means that Precipice Blades will do nothing until Ingrain is actually used.
- Most P-Don use Fire Punch instead of Precipice Blades on Celesteela.
- Do you really see everyone putting out replays on this thread when they reserve a Pokemon?

Theory isn't everything.

 

[Lotus]

True, true, but there's a few things you may not have noticed:
- Protect exists.
- Both analyses of damage ignore Ingrain, so not only is the heal amount lowered in your math, but Celesteela has a free switch. The top one's higher limit will screw Ingrain, but if it doesn't KO, it guarantees at least one Flamethrower or Flash Cannon off, which, when Celesteela faints, makes a revenge kill for, say, Kyogre, much easier.
- The set in question is a special set, meaning Intimidate does nothing.
- Ubers is 6v6, not 1v1, so anyone can simply switch to Marshadow, Kyogre-Primal, etcetera, and therefore completely ignore the fact that the matchup is bad, at least for the time being.
- The set in question is used in practice (mine, at least) where Celesteela faints after some chip damage and lets another Pokemon take down a few Pokemon.
- A switch into Marshadow with a Sash and Spectral Thief exists and is viable.
- Ingrain isn't used first turn. This also means that Precipice Blades will do nothing until Ingrain is actually used.
- Most P-Don use Fire Punch instead of Precipice Blades on Celesteela.
- Do you really see everyone putting out replays on this thread when they reserve a Pokemon?

Theory isn't everything.

Protect won't really change the fact that you are still 2HKOed, if not OHKOed by defensive variants as you are helplessly trapped due to Ingrain. Your argument of 'throwing an attack to Primal Groudon makes revenge killing easier' is basically saying throwing an attack and doing a miniscule damage to a threat is worth straightup wasting one of your teammates. If we employ the logic that "teammates do exist to take on threat A so this set is usable", we might as well have an analysis for Pikachu, since Salamence can pivot into Primal Groudon. Celesteela can already wear down foes with a combination of Leech Seed and Toxic and that doesn't reinforce your argument of Ingrain Celeteela being usable in any way. Focus Sash Marshadow is very ineffective in general (although many people in ladder runs this) and it isn't stopping boosted Primal Groudon (which will freely set up on Celeteela after it traps itself with Ingrain) if hazard are up. The reason why replay was requested was that we were open to persuasion even when you have suggested a set that is widely believed to be unviable. Yes, theory isn't everything but I frankly do not understand how arguments that are already addressed about this issue are not practical.

I think he is simply asking you to elaborate on the benefit of forgoing Celeteela's Ground-immunity to be vulnerable against Extreme Killer Arceus, Arceus-Ground, Necrozma-DM, and Primal Groudon (which you shouldn't take on with Celeteela in the first place). Your Ingrain Celeteela is basically forgoing what makes Celesteela useful for that extra 6% of extra recovery to be checked by an array of Pokémon it would with Ground-immunity. We honestly aren't ready for an argument when you employ irrelevant scenarios and reject further elaboration, especially on something like Ingrain Celesteela which I can confidently say more than few of us will deem unviable.

 

[Vengeance417]

True, true, but there's a few things you may not have noticed:
- Protect exists. So the set is Ingrain/Leech Seed/Protect/Flash Cannon or Flamethrower. So no Toxic to punish Ho-Oh (which completely wrecks this strategy btw thanks to Regenerator) and Primal Kyogre? Also, one of them's not running STAB which means the point I made with Substitute users still stands if Flamethrower's used.
- Both analyses of damage ignore Ingrain, so not only is the heal amount lowered in your math, but Celesteela has a free switch. The top one's higher limit will screw Ingrain, but if it doesn't KO, it guarantees at least one Flamethrower or Flash Cannon off, which, when Celesteela faints, makes a revenge kill for, say, Kyogre, much easier. Ingrain isn't included in the Showdown calculator, but even if it was, like you said, Overheat from support Pdon still obliterates you, and you're forgetting about Swords Dance Fire Punch Pdon, which sets up on Protect and no amount of passive recovery will save you.
- The set in question is a special set, meaning Intimidate does nothing. Why special over Heavy Slam?
- Ubers is 6v6, not 1v1, so anyone can simply switch to Marshadow, Kyogre-Primal, etcetera, and therefore completely ignore the fact that the matchup is bad, at least for the time being. So you're basically judging the viability of this mon because of having 5 other teammates? Might as well nom Golduck, also.
- The set in question is used in practice (mine, at least) where Celesteela faints after some chip damage and lets another Pokemon take down a few Pokemon. Any mon can chip at another mon for its teammates. Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur are also Leech Seed users.
- A switch into Marshadow with a Sash and Spectral Thief exists and is viable. Ok?
- Ingrain isn't used first turn. This also means that Precipice Blades will do nothing until Ingrain is actually used. Overheat/Fire Blast still obliterates Celesteela.
- Most P-Don use Fire Punch instead of Precipice Blades on Celesteela. No shit.
- Do you really see everyone putting out replays on this thread when they reserve a Pokemon? I asked for replays because your set is really out there, dude.

Theory isn't everything.

 

[Rei]

I'm gonna try Genesect and Reshiram

 

[hmsa2012]

Reserving Dugtrio

 

[Lotus]

Reserving Dugtrio

A little late, unfortunately.

 

[hmsa2012]

A little late, unfortunately.

Damn, I check the reservation list and it was open. I guess I'll take Smeragle then.

 

[Nayrz]

C&C is gonna start working back into the swing of things. I'll be looking for new QC members and we have a list of current approved revamps to begin:

Necrozma-DM
Necrozma-DW
Zygarde
CM Arceus-Ground (set revamp)

Note that the first three will be very closely monitored. We have very high expectations of anyone that takes them and we will not hesitate to reject poor work - please know what you are getting into. I may work on them myself if interest is low and I find sufficient time.

 

[ILoveMilk]

I'll try Blissey

 

[Lotus]

please know what you are getting into

I heard that Zygarde will take about Groudon analysis' work.

I'm just one crazy dude who never gave himself a break starting from December 4th in C&C. Every time I promised myself to take on bigger challenges but this one seems a little intimidating... since when did I give a shit though :lul:
Reserving Zygarde here and now. I just feel obligated to be responsible for revamping my big boss. Giving heads up that this will take around a week to get out of WIP, if not longer.

 

[l'habitat]

reserving Mega Houndoomn

 

[Stoward]

reserving Mega Houndoomn

Hi this is ubers, mega houndoom isnt in our reservation index, it's not an ubers mon and it's not in the viability ranks. It hasn't seen any prominent usage and I don't see that changing any time soon, as a result, it won't be getting an analysis.

 

[l'habitat]

Hi this is ubers, mega houndoom isnt in our reservation index, it's not an ubers mon and it's not in the viability ranks. It hasn't seen any prominent usage and I don't see that changing any time soon, as a result, it won't be getting an analysis.

Hey i was really serious and me i've played it, so i know his viability , stop be arrogant with a pokemon only because of his usages :)

 

[pooyou123456789q]

Hey i was really serious and me i've played it, so i know his viability , stop be arrogant with a pokemon only because of his usages :)

Any non-Ubers Pokémon requires approval from the QC council. If you really want to do a Houndoom analysis, ask them.

 

[Lotus]

Reserving Giratina

 

[Stoward]

Dropped CM Groundceus revamp. Only really picked it up for the sake of badge grinding which is really a bad approach. I haven't really used CM Groundy much or played that much USM Ubers lately, so I feel like it'd be better to offer it to someone who has more motivation to actually do it.

 

[Vengeance417]

I'll take Arceus-Ice.

 

[Lotus]

That Zygarde revamp was rough to get out of WIP. I think I might take it a little easier this time and do Necrozma-DM revamp(??????????).

Will take a little more than a week for this one to be out of WIP as well.

 

[Nayrz]

quick announcement: Serial EKiller is now QC!

 

[Cynara]

Reserving Shaymin-Sky

 

[Nayrz]

Revamp announcements:

Arceus-Water (Full revamp - more SR less Defog)
Arceus-Dark (support + overview revamp)
Primal Groudon (SR + SD set) < I'll do this