Resource USUM NU Viability Rankings (Old)

[elodin]

decided to make a post to point out some of the things I find misplaced in this ranking

first of all slowbro should be on a tier of its own. I don't really think there's much of a difference between making it s+ or making it the sole pokémon in s, but slowbro's by far the best pokémon in nu and it should be above both incineroar and gigalith by at least one tier. nothing in the tier comes remotely close to doing what slowbro does, as it is the best pivot available in nu by far, is a huge offensive threat in both wallbreaking and sweeping, walls pretty much the entire tier, is great into sand teams which are currently on the rise, and is so versatile that it has the freedom to run whatever set is most needed by its team. I've seen thunder wave slowbros before in combination with king's rock cinccino, for example. I've used magic coat colbur slowbro before on teams that needed better hazard control or an unorthodox way to set up rocks vs xatu. slowbro is free to run waterium z, psychium z or buginium z and each z move forces you to play differently around it. it also has a very easy time wearing down (or even luring) its own checks and counters through toxic or other moves. there's no pokémon that comes remotely close to being as good as slowbro.

incineroar is kind of similar as it checks a good portion of the tier and is also a great offensive threat, but it just doesn't have the same defensive tools (regenerator, not weak to rocks) or the offensive versatility through an extensive movepool to put it on the same tier as slowbro. regenerator is a key differential here because incineroar becomes ridiculously easy to wear down, and it fails to check most of the pokémon it's supposed to once rocks go up. not to mention incineroar needs to choose between utility sets (av, iapapa) or offensive sets (sd), but it can't do both in one. slowbro is still a defensive behemoth even when opting for more offensive sets and move choices. av slowbro or calm mind slowbro are still amazing defensive walls that are super hard to switch into. if incineroar is not running sd it is easily checked by some of the best pokémon in the tier - slowbro, diancie, gigalith - which are all harder to chip down than itself. if it's running sd then it can't act as a pivot at all because it can't afford to run u-turn, and it also lacks the natural bulk to keep checking what it checks through its utility sets.

moving on, while gigalith is a great pokémon due to its typing, natural bulk boosted by sand stream, ability to set up rocks vs xatu and the fact that it can support his team to an absurd degree with sandstorm, it's still not nearly as good as slowbro. gigalith usually runs smooth rock so, like incineroar, it's also a lot easier to chip down. it doesn't come close to either of them in posing as an offensive threat and most offensive pokémon carry coverage options that seriously hurt its ability to check them efficiently throughout the whole game. I understand gigalith is listed highly mostly because of sand stream, but now that sand is being recognized as a prominent playstyle people are preparing more and more against it, so this trait lost a lot of value.

vanilluxe is either listed way too low or the other pokémon in a+ are listed way too high, because ice cream is most definitely better than all of them. vanilluxe is still impossible to switch into for the most part, and just like gigalith (well not just like it because sand is a lot better than hail) it can set up a potential team of weather abusers. lax's hail team might look like a cheesy, not very effective playstyle, but this is only another aspect to be added to vanilluxe's extensive list of qualities. it's still basically impossible to counter, considering specs is the strongest hitting pokémon in the tier and it can afford to run a multitude of sets to work around its checks. specs is the best set by far, but the fact it can run more utility oriented sets (like taunt z move and toxic protect) just goes to show that it also has some nice versatility to bring to the table.

the only other pokémon in a+ that should be listed alongside vanilluxe is diancie, which is also very good on its own. diancie's defensive utility is one of the best as it checks a plethora of threats in the tier and it's also a great stealth rocks setter. it has the ability to support its team through heal bell variants while also hitting decently hard even with little to no investment. the fact it has access to calm mind and good coverage moves also means it's quite hard to switch into depending on its set. earth power helps diancie break through common checks and it also has a variety of z move options it can run.

with these thoughts in mind, I believe the proper way to rank these would be:

S+

S

S-

but like I said I wouldn't be opposed to making both incineroar and gigalith a+ tier alongside vanilluxe and diancie while making slowbro the only pokémon in s, though if this route is taken then all the other pokémon listed in a+ should go down to a or lower.

the reason for that being they're really not nearly as good as they're ranked. stoutland is only good in sand and even then it's not even its best abuser, because sandslash poses as much more of a threat vs most teams due to its excellent coverage and sd. stoutland can be deadly vs some teams but normal stab is not very good in a tier where so many rock-types and steel-types are great, not to mention it being choice locked makes it rely on prediction often, which is very exploitable. if stoutland locks itself into the wrong move it can result in bad consequences for his team (say the opponent gets free layers up or a free defog), and it's easy to scout for which move the dog is gonna lock itself into because slowbro can always pivot against it. sandslash at least threatens slowbro with a +2 tectonic rage, and that should already put him on the same tier or above stoutland imo.

moving on, sneasel is also not that good. it's been extremely hurt by the recent drops, incineroar being one of his best counters and being a top 3 mon was already not helping, and the fact that it can't break through slowbro if it's z move or colbur is also ridiculous. of course sneasel is a great pokémon, but it is flawed and has hard counters in 3 out of the 5 best pokémon in the tier right now. that's not to mention its rocks weakness, lack of any defensive utility and the fact that steelix and hariyama are still very decent nu pokémon.

passimian is a great pokémon but not nearly as good as diancie or vanilluxe as well because it's extremely predictable and it's walled by the best pokémon in the tier. every passimian carries the exact same set with the potential z move fighting or choice band sometimes, but 90% of the time it's choice scarf. even if it's z move or choice band it's not breaking through slowbro regardless. although passimian is great at what it does it definitely doesn't come close to being the offensive threat that vanilluxe is or the utility wall that diancie is.

steelix is still pretty good but it's hurt by the new rockers added to the tier and by the fact that slowbro is so good. it's also a steel-type that fails to wall whimsicott and vikavolt, which extremely hurts its defensive prowess. the fact that it's basically the only rocker in the tier at the moment that fails to set up rocks vs xatu is also a major issue.

I won't bother going through all the pokémon in the other a ranks, but it's clear vanilluxe and diancie should be at least one tier above the other pokémon in a+. like I said before this can be done by either separating the s tier into s+, s and s- or by reorganizing the a and a- tier to fit the current a+ pokémon that shouldn't be there.

S

A+

other issues:

type: null is ranked way too high. it lacks offensive presence to be anything but a pivot, and it's also severely hurt by the fact that it's chipped down by both sand and hail. it relies on rest for recovery, which means it relies on sleep talk to beat what it's supposed to counter. the fact that sand is so good right now is also terrible for type: null, because this pokémon is free setup fodder for sandslash and gigalith, who can set up sd or rocks on it and force it to rest quite easily, and gets 2hkoed by stoutland. this pokémon is actually so much worse than most stuff in b+ at the moment that it should drop to b or even b-.

xatu, garbodor, silvally-steel and torterra are ranked too low. I guess the recent drops made people think xatu is worse somehow, but xatu is still the best hazard control in the tier and it forces people to build around it almost the same way as they did before. even when playing vs something that can set up rocks against it xatu still proves to have massive utility just by forcing mind games, getting chip damage with rocky helmet and pivoting around. I can't believe this mon that is borderline broken is ranked next to shit like vileplume. garbodor is also great at the moment because xatu is being used a lot less due to the drops, and since venusaur was banned golbat has dropped immensely in usage, so it's the best user of spikes and toxic spikes in the tier by far. the fact that it has access to stomping tantrum for silvally-steel, toxicroak other threats is also great, not to mention how it excels at chipping down foes with rocky helmet and aftermath. both these pokémon should be at least a-.

silvally-steel is definitely in a good position because it's the best defogger in the tier and has great utility with its standard set. being able to check most special attackers while also cleaning the field and providing utility with toxic and momentum with parting shot is something tremendously good. it should definitely be ranked higher, either b+ or a-.

torterra is the one I feel less strongly about because he's the only rocker besides steelix that fails to set up vs xatu. that said, the amount of things it walls and the fact that it's an excellent check to sand teams while being the only ground resist able to set up stealth rocks shouldn't be underestimated. it's also great at checking top tier threats such as whimsicott, heliolisk and klinklang, something not many pokémon can do. should be ranked either b or b+.

anyway those were the points I felt the need to point out since they're the most concerning regarding the current rankings. I'm not sure what's the procedure behind updating the rankings, but I hope some of these points are taken into account.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Minior C- > D: Agree
There’s nothing Minior really accomplishes as of now. Many fire types (except Incineroar) have lost viability and/or usage due to the abundance of sand and Incineroar. Mons that Minior used to set up on like Xatu, Altaria, and Scyther aren’t as viable anymore. Shields down looks good on paper. But it’s low HP is probably what killed it from being a reliable setup sweeper a long time ago. If you want a shell smasher just use Omastar.

Drampa C- > UR
Slow, and lets in Diancie and Medicham. Why is it still ranked?

Articuno C- > UR
Another mon that loses to Sand. Diancie and Gigalith are running rampage in the tier and rocks have become more apparent in the tier. Diancie even stole Articuno’s role as a cleric giving Articuno a much more nonexistent niche. What’s Roost gonna do for you when you are 2HKOd by most of NU’s offensive powerhouses.

Froslass C > C-
Another mon that hates the current trends of our meta. Sand, Incineroar, Diancie, it can go on. Many players won’t let you set up more than one layer of spikes and since your SpA is pretty damn pitiful, your only hope is to use Will O Wisp, do some chip with Ice Beam, or Taunt them.

Clawitzer C > C+
Clawitzer is highly benefited in the meta rn. Venusaur left and all of S rank loses to it. It loves to pick on the rising mons like Palossand and Ferroseed. Specs hits like a truck and even packs U-Turn, A rare sight for wallbreakers. It is an underrated and solid wallbreaker.

Altaria C > The Shadow Realm
This is arguably worse than Hitmontop and Minior rn. What’s good of a defogger when it loses to almost every viable rocker in the tier. Dragon/Flying is a horrible typing to have in the tier rn. You lose to Diancie, Gigalith, Piloswine, Vanilluxe, Sneasel, etc. Due to it’s passive nature, and reliance on non-STAB Flamethrower and Toxic, Toxicroak and other scary setup sweepers can just setup on its face and call it a day. The only helpful trend is Sneasel slight downgrade in usage and the disappearance of Venusaur.

Spiritomb C+ > C-/UR
This thing is straight up setup bait for Incineroar and Scrafty. Losing to Diancie is not good in at itself, but it can be very easily worn down throughout the battle up to the point where it can no longer do its job. It’s heavily reliant on Pursuit, and priority to kill something, and has to fight its niche against Sneasel and Houndoom as Pursuit trappers. The only reason to leave it ranked is it’s one of the best Medicham answers we have and can do okay vs Stoutland.

Golbat C+ > C
Golbat lost relevance since Venusaur left and its reputation has gotten even worse. Sand teams are everywhere and a lot of mons in the tier hit it super effectively. Not even the rise of Sceptile can warrant it to stay.

Torterra B- > B/even B+
This thing is very anti-meta at the moment. It’s a good mon for those looking for an answer to Diancie, Klinklang, and Steelix. It’s a solid rocker with Grass/Ground STAB, allowing it to pressure common grass and ground type switch ins. It’s even possible to run a Rock Polish set since its typing is amazing rn offensively and has a good number of setup opportunities. Lets not forget the mention of the decline of most flying and fire types due to Bro’s and Sand’s omnipresence. It’s a great mon to have on your team.

Silvally-Steel B > B+
I still have no idea why it hasn’t been ranked higher yet. Imo it’s one of the most reliable defoggers in the tier and the only one not hindered by Sand and Diancie besides Rotom and Whimsicott. Parting Shot also neglates Silvally’s only above average damage output. Great mon overall.

Scrafty B > B+/A-
Scrafty is great rn. Fightium-Z DD destroys Diancie and other bulky mons. It helps that the meta has slowly turned to Balance and Bulky Offense. It has a lot of setup opportunities to boot it up. Shed Skin makes sure that not even burns and poison can stop this beast. Threatening all three S rank mons and a large portion of NU makes it deserving of a higher spot in the VR.

Cryogonal B > C+
Cryogonal is an example of a mon ranked too high for what it has to offer. Any rocker not named Torterra and Piloswine can dismantle it. It’s better to use Rotom and Silvally as your hazard remover. It hates a lot of new trends like Diancie and Incineroar’s relevance and Golbat’s decline.

Type: Null A- > B+: Agree
This thing isn’t what it used to be. The once profound answer to Vaniluxe and Delphox has been left to the dust. Delphox is barely even useful anymore and we already have Hariyama and Silvally to take care of it. It can still pull off a sweep every now and then and it’s still decent, but A- isn’t a good reflection to how it’s doing in the current meta. Case closed.

 

[Abejas]

Hey I got some noms to make.

B-> B maybe B+
Torterra has to be one of the few mons that actually benefit from the drops that happened. The great natural bulk it has with its great typing really makes this mon good. The natural ability to check sandslash, every gigalith set and most diancie sets (besides specs) make this mon really good right now, it also has the ability to get up rocks and also provide great offensive presence with its dual typing. It has a reliable way of recovery, the capability to check heliolisk and also be a rocker that can beat xatu (if you run stone edge). Not only this, it can destroy every single rocker in the tier.

C+ > B-
Accelgor is really slept on these days. It's great speed tier make it a great revenge killer and really punishes teams that use passimian as the only form of speed control and it also has the ability to get up spikes which is pretty nice. The combination of energy ball focus blast and bug buzz really makes this mon hard to switch into, since it destroys most brolix cores and steelvally+vaporeon cores that have spiked up in usuage lately, any team that doesn't have golbat will really struggle against this mon and it can punish these switch ins with laying spikes.

A- > B+/ B
I agree with the post above. Type: Null has really fallen from grace, it just cant do what it once did. The lack of offensive pressence really makes this mon hard to use and when it switches in, its usually forced to rest to keep being able to check most threats. Not going to say much more about this since the reasoning is already above.

A+ > A maybe even A-
Poor sneasel has really fallen from grace, the drops really impacted it and not in the good way. With the rise of incineroar in usage and the drops of diancie and gigalith, its really hard to use this mon. Giving free set up turns to incineroar is never good due to the lack of reliable switch ins this mon has, gigalith can take any 2 hits from sneasel and set up sand for free and even rocks, defensive diancie laughs at what ever move this mon wants to go for and can easily pressure it out while also setting up rocks or throwing a strong hit off. It's hard to justify its usage with all the meta changes and its not free to use as it once was.

C- > D
Its a bad mon, no reason to actually use it. Cant break slowbro or steelix and it doesn't provide anything to a team.

B+ > B maybe B-
Another mon that really hates the current metagame. With the drops of gigalith and diancie this mon really struggles to excel at anything, especially when the later walls most of its sets (unless its np grassium). Another mon really hard to justify it's usage and cant really do what it once did.

C+ > C / C-
Agreeing with this nom, there is no reason to ever use this mon unless you really hate medicham. Giving free set up opportunities to incineroar which is running rampant is never fun. It also invites in diancie which is another mon that you never want coming in for free. Simply not good in the current metagame.

This last one I'm not sure and really would want some opinions

B- > C+
With the rise of xatu once again I really dont see why this mon so high in the VR list. The lack of offensive pressence really hurts it, and yes it does have access to u-turn but why use it over any other rocker?.

Thats about it.

 

[Rabia]

decided to make a post to point out some of the things I find misplaced in this ranking

first of all slowbro should be on a tier of its own. I don't really think there's much of a difference between making it s+ or making it the sole pokémon in s, but slowbro's by far the best pokémon in nu and it should be above both incineroar and gigalith by at least one tier. nothing in the tier comes remotely close to doing what slowbro does, as it is the best pivot available in nu by far, is a huge offensive threat in both wallbreaking and sweeping, walls pretty much the entire tier, is great into sand teams which are currently on the rise, and is so versatile that it has the freedom to run whatever set is most needed by its team. I've seen thunder wave slowbros before in combination with king's rock cinccino, for example. I've used magic coat colbur slowbro before on teams that needed better hazard control or an unorthodox way to set up rocks vs xatu. slowbro is free to run waterium z, psychium z or buginium z and each z move forces you to play differently around it. it also has a very easy time wearing down (or even luring) its own checks and counters through toxic or other moves. there's no pokémon that comes remotely close to being as good as slowbro.

incineroar is kind of similar as it checks a good portion of the tier and is also a great offensive threat, but it just doesn't have the same defensive tools (regenerator, not weak to rocks) or the offensive versatility through an extensive movepool to put it on the same tier as slowbro. regenerator is a key differential here because incineroar becomes ridiculously easy to wear down, and it fails to check most of the pokémon it's supposed to once rocks go up. not to mention incineroar needs to choose between utility sets (av, iapapa) or offensive sets (sd), but it can't do both in one. slowbro is still a defensive behemoth even when opting for more offensive sets and move choices. av slowbro or calm mind slowbro are still amazing defensive walls that are super hard to switch into. if incineroar is not running sd it is easily checked by some of the best pokémon in the tier - slowbro, diancie, gigalith - which are all harder to chip down than itself. if it's running sd then it can't act as a pivot at all because it can't afford to run u-turn, and it also lacks the natural bulk to keep checking what it checks through its utility sets.

moving on, while gigalith is a great pokémon due to its typing, natural bulk boosted by sand stream, ability to set up rocks vs xatu and the fact that it can support his team to an absurd degree with sandstorm, it's still not nearly as good as slowbro. gigalith usually runs smooth rock so, like incineroar, it's also a lot easier to chip down. it doesn't come close to either of them in posing as an offensive threat and most offensive pokémon carry coverage options that seriously hurt its ability to check them efficiently throughout the whole game. I understand gigalith is listed highly mostly because of sand stream, but now that sand is being recognized as a prominent playstyle people are preparing more and more against it, so this trait lost a lot of value.

vanilluxe is either listed way too low or the other pokémon in a+ are listed way too high, because ice cream is most definitely better than all of them. vanilluxe is still impossible to switch into for the most part, and just like gigalith (well not just like it because sand is a lot better than hail) it can set up a potential team of weather abusers. lax's hail team might look like a cheesy, not very effective playstyle, but this is only another aspect to be added to vanilluxe's extensive list of qualities. it's still basically impossible to counter, considering specs is the strongest hitting pokémon in the tier and it can afford to run a multitude of sets to work around its checks. specs is the best set by far, but the fact it can run more utility oriented sets (like taunt z move and toxic protect) just goes to show that it also has some nice versatility to bring to the table.

the only other pokémon in a+ that should be listed alongside vanilluxe is diancie, which is also very good on its own. diancie's defensive utility is one of the best as it checks a plethora of threats in the tier and it's also a great stealth rocks setter. it has the ability to support its team through heal bell variants while also hitting decently hard even with little to no investment. the fact it has access to calm mind and good coverage moves also means it's quite hard to switch into depending on its set. earth power helps diancie break through common checks and it also has a variety of z move options it can run.

with these thoughts in mind, I believe the proper way to rank these would be:

S+

S

S-

but like I said I wouldn't be opposed to making both incineroar and gigalith a+ tier alongside vanilluxe and diancie while making slowbro the only pokémon in s, though if this route is taken then all the other pokémon listed in a+ should go down to a or lower.

the reason for that being they're really not nearly as good as they're ranked. stoutland is only good in sand and even then it's not even its best abuser, because sandslash poses as much more of a threat vs most teams due to its excellent coverage and sd. stoutland can be deadly vs some teams but normal stab is not very good in a tier where so many rock-types and steel-types are great, not to mention it being choice locked makes it rely on prediction often, which is very exploitable. if stoutland locks itself into the wrong move it can result in bad consequences for his team (say the opponent gets free layers up or a free defog), and it's easy to scout for which move the dog is gonna lock itself into because slowbro can always pivot against it. sandslash at least threatens slowbro with a +2 tectonic rage, and that should already put him on the same tier or above stoutland imo.

moving on, sneasel is also not that good. it's been extremely hurt by the recent drops, incineroar being one of his best counters and being a top 3 mon was already not helping, and the fact that it can't break through slowbro if it's z move or colbur is also ridiculous. of course sneasel is a great pokémon, but it is flawed and has hard counters in 3 out of the 5 best pokémon in the tier right now. that's not to mention its rocks weakness, lack of any defensive utility and the fact that steelix and hariyama are still very decent nu pokémon.

passimian is a great pokémon but not nearly as good as diancie or vanilluxe as well because it's extremely predictable and it's walled by the best pokémon in the tier. every passimian carries the exact same set with the potential z move fighting or choice band sometimes, but 90% of the time it's choice scarf. even if it's z move or choice band it's not breaking through slowbro regardless. although passimian is great at what it does it definitely doesn't come close to being the offensive threat that vanilluxe is or the utility wall that diancie is.

steelix is still pretty good but it's hurt by the new rockers added to the tier and by the fact that slowbro is so good. it's also a steel-type that fails to wall whimsicott and vikavolt, which extremely hurts its defensive prowess. the fact that it's basically the only rocker in the tier at the moment that fails to set up rocks vs xatu is also a major issue.

I won't bother going through all the pokémon in the other a ranks, but it's clear vanilluxe and diancie should be at least one tier above the other pokémon in a+. like I said before this can be done by either separating the s tier into s+, s and s- or by reorganizing the a and a- tier to fit the current a+ pokémon that shouldn't be there.

S

A+

other issues:

type: null is ranked way too high. it lacks offensive presence to be anything but a pivot, and it's also severely hurt by the fact that it's chipped down by both sand and hail. it relies on rest for recovery, which means it relies on sleep talk to beat what it's supposed to counter. the fact that sand is so good right now is also terrible for type: null, because this pokémon is free setup fodder for sandslash and gigalith, who can set up sd or rocks on it and force it to rest quite easily, and gets 2hkoed by stoutland. this pokémon is actually so much worse than most stuff in b+ at the moment that it should drop to b or even b-.

xatu, garbodor, silvally-steel and torterra are ranked too low. I guess the recent drops made people think xatu is worse somehow, but xatu is still the best hazard control in the tier and it forces people to build around it almost the same way as they did before. even when playing vs something that can set up rocks against it xatu still proves to have massive utility just by forcing mind games, getting chip damage with rocky helmet and pivoting around. I can't believe this mon that is borderline broken is ranked next to shit like vileplume. garbodor is also great at the moment because xatu is being used a lot less due to the drops, and since venusaur was banned golbat has dropped immensely in usage, so it's the best user of spikes and toxic spikes in the tier by far. the fact that it has access to stomping tantrum for silvally-steel, toxicroak other threats is also great, not to mention how it excels at chipping down foes with rocky helmet and aftermath. both these pokémon should be at least a-.

silvally-steel is definitely in a good position because it's the best defogger in the tier and has great utility with its standard set. being able to check most special attackers while also cleaning the field and providing utility with toxic and momentum with parting shot is something tremendously good. it should definitely be ranked higher, either b+ or a-.

torterra is the one I feel less strongly about because he's the only rocker besides steelix that fails to set up vs xatu. that said, the amount of things it walls and the fact that it's an excellent check to sand teams while being the only ground resist able to set up stealth rocks shouldn't be underestimated. it's also great at checking top tier threats such as whimsicott, heliolisk and klinklang, something not many pokémon can do. should be ranked either b or b+.

anyway those were the points I felt the need to point out since they're the most concerning regarding the current rankings. I'm not sure what's the procedure behind updating the rankings, but I hope some of these points are taken into account.

Let me preface this post by stating that I do agree with creating + and - sub-divisions in S. I believe Vanilluxe and Diancie to be significantly better than the rest of A+ (except Passimian). I also do find myself generally believing Slowbro to be marginally better than Incineroar and Gigalith; however, I have many issues with some of the comments you made. I'll try my best to make it clear which sections or Pokemon I'm referring to.

Passimian: While versatility does correlate to a degree with viability (see: Slowbro, Diancie), and I will not refute Passimian is a generally linear Pokemon, lack of versatility =/= less viable than a more versatile Pokemon. We've seen this before with Pokemon such as Sawk getting banned from PU (and I believe NU in previous generations) solely because of one or two sets. While Sawk was clearly more overwhelming in its ability to break teams than Passimian (this can be attributed to Choice Scarf being the most common set), the point I am trying to make is that just because a Pokemon runs a limited number of sets, that doesn't make it objectively worse than a Pokemon with multiple sets. We see another example of a dominating Pokemon with all of two or three sets (depends on if you count ToxicTect Vanilluxe as a set) in Vanilluxe, a Pokemon you yourself are pushing for S-.

I believe Passimian to be if anything just marginally worse than Vanilluxe/Diancie; it is the best Choice Scarf user in the tier given its access to U-Turn and hitting as hard as it needs to without anything but 252 Attack investment (EDIT: there's more to it obviously; Passimian is also deceptively bulky and sits at a nice speed tier while revenging prominent threats in the meta such as Heliolisk and Incineroar), and its Choice Band set is grossly underrated because of how damn effective it is as a Choice Scarf user. I haven't used Fightinium Z, though I will comment that that set's existence does attest to Passimian's ability to adapt.

Steelix: A lot of what you're saying here is valid; Steelix struggles to beat Pokemon such as Vikavolt and Whimsicott because of its Ground-typing, and Steelix doesn't enjoy Palossand and Gigalith being prevalent Stealth Rock users since they threaten it. What I take issue with is the notion Steelix has this massive problem with Xatu (which you oversell greatly); Heavy Slam from Steelix is forcing Xatu to immediately Roost giving you a free turn to switch into whatever your team has to deal with Xatu. Yeah you don't win the 1v1, but you don't need to.

Xatu: Calling Xatu "borderline broken" was a real head-scratcher for me; Xatu hasn't been great for awhile and meta trends are trending against it even more other than the decline of Sneasel (which is still a very good Pokemon, though definitely has fallen from grace); Xatu struggles to do its job of bouncing hazards because every - and I mean every - common Stealth Rocker (Palossand, Gigalith, Diancie, Steelix) either bops it or forces it to Roost on the switch. I could see a rise to A- eventually, but Xatu is far from broken.

Some general comments: Garbodor is really cool right now given Golbat's decline, Silvally-Steel was cooler before Sand meta, Torterra is underrated, Type: Null could use a drop or two.

A few lot of small nominations with little explanation because \o/

A -> A+
It's just as good as Stoutland from my experience; Knock Off helps provide this with extra utility similar to Stoutland having Pursuit.

B+ -> A-
Being a Stealth Rock user that has recovery outside of an item + being good against Sand is really cool. Also checks Fighting-type Pokemon such as Passimian, Toxicroak, and Medicham which is really neat.

stay in B
Cryogonal is one of two viable Rapid Spin users (I don't like Hitmonlee lol) which in it of itself is great for Spike-stacking teams. Has access to Recover as well which sets it apart from Blastoise and can scout Pokemon like Sceptile and Heliolisk.

B- -> lower
It's Ambipom, but cute.

C+ -> C- / unrank
Unviable garbage which takes too much effort to set up with for what its worth. Even after a Belly Drum it's somehow underwhelming.

EDIT: I kind of like Zangoose more than I previously did after playing around with Screens (broken btw). I'm still not sure if Zangoose shouldn't drop, though I don't think unranking it is the best idea now.

C -> C- / D
Altaria was cool when Emboar was a thing since it checked most sets pretty consistently, but now it just either loses to the hazard setter it wants to Defog against or is forced to Roost and lose momentum.

C -> C- / unrank
Shuckle is better than Smeargle entirely because it has the bulk to get up one of its hazards relatively easily, but with Sticky Web being a dead archetype I don't see there being much reason to rank it.

stay in C-
It has a very minor niche on double Defog stall teams and is nice against Grass-types such as Sceptile and Whimsicott. I do understand why Articuno may get unranked regardless, though it does have a niche worth addressing.

C- -> unrank
It's a good breaker, but it's ridiculously slow and really frail which usually just gives your opponent momentum. Roost + 3 Attacks Life Orb sounds cool but I'm not sure if that's enough to bother keeping it ranked.

It's a long read.

 

[Musharnanigans]

I'd like to make a nomination for an unranked Pokemon that can beat Diancie, Steelix, Whimsicott, Klinklang, Gigalith, Cryogonal, Vanilluxe, and many other pokemon. Yep, I'm talking about Bronzor.

Bronzor: Unranked - - > C or C-

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rest / Stealth Rock / Trick Room
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball / Skill Swap
- Psywave

This Pokemon right here is dangerous; good mixed bulk lets it switch in many times on common Pokemon like Gigalith, Diancie, Steelix, and Vanilluxe which lets it throw off a Toxic or Psywave in return. Gyro ball is there to get the 2HKO on Sneasel if it wants to Pursuit trap you, but Skill Swap can be used with Stealth Rock to get rocks up versus Xatu. What's cool about Bronzor is that it can act as an emergency CB Stoutland answer locked into Return or a Lycanroc check. Trick Room, although somewhat niche, can be used as emergency speed control versus sand or fast offense teams and doing so can really mess up your opponent's game plan.

Some replays showing Bronzor's worth:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-757799680
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-757742201
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-757155691
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-757197484 (Bronzor sweep. Opponent called me the N word so don't click it if it'll offend you.)

 

[shiloh]

decided to make a post to point out some of the things I find misplaced in this ranking

first of all slowbro should be on a tier of its own. I don't really think there's much of a difference between making it s+ or making it the sole pokémon in s, but slowbro's by far the best pokémon in nu and it should be above both incineroar and gigalith by at least one tier. nothing in the tier comes remotely close to doing what slowbro does, as it is the best pivot available in nu by far, is a huge offensive threat in both wallbreaking and sweeping, walls pretty much the entire tier, is great into sand teams which are currently on the rise, and is so versatile that it has the freedom to run whatever set is most needed by its team. I've seen thunder wave slowbros before in combination with king's rock cinccino, for example. I've used magic coat colbur slowbro before on teams that needed better hazard control or an unorthodox way to set up rocks vs xatu. slowbro is free to run waterium z, psychium z or buginium z and each z move forces you to play differently around it. it also has a very easy time wearing down (or even luring) its own checks and counters through toxic or other moves. there's no pokémon that comes remotely close to being as good as slowbro.

incineroar is kind of similar as it checks a good portion of the tier and is also a great offensive threat, but it just doesn't have the same defensive tools (regenerator, not weak to rocks) or the offensive versatility through an extensive movepool to put it on the same tier as slowbro. regenerator is a key differential here because incineroar becomes ridiculously easy to wear down, and it fails to check most of the pokémon it's supposed to once rocks go up. not to mention incineroar needs to choose between utility sets (av, iapapa) or offensive sets (sd), but it can't do both in one. slowbro is still a defensive behemoth even when opting for more offensive sets and move choices. av slowbro or calm mind slowbro are still amazing defensive walls that are super hard to switch into. if incineroar is not running sd it is easily checked by some of the best pokémon in the tier - slowbro, diancie, gigalith - which are all harder to chip down than itself. if it's running sd then it can't act as a pivot at all because it can't afford to run u-turn, and it also lacks the natural bulk to keep checking what it checks through its utility sets.

moving on, while gigalith is a great pokémon due to its typing, natural bulk boosted by sand stream, ability to set up rocks vs xatu and the fact that it can support his team to an absurd degree with sandstorm, it's still not nearly as good as slowbro. gigalith usually runs smooth rock so, like incineroar, it's also a lot easier to chip down. it doesn't come close to either of them in posing as an offensive threat and most offensive pokémon carry coverage options that seriously hurt its ability to check them efficiently throughout the whole game. I understand gigalith is listed highly mostly because of sand stream, but now that sand is being recognized as a prominent playstyle people are preparing more and more against it, so this trait lost a lot of value.

vanilluxe is either listed way too low or the other pokémon in a+ are listed way too high, because ice cream is most definitely better than all of them. vanilluxe is still impossible to switch into for the most part, and just like gigalith (well not just like it because sand is a lot better than hail) it can set up a potential team of weather abusers. lax's hail team might look like a cheesy, not very effective playstyle, but this is only another aspect to be added to vanilluxe's extensive list of qualities. it's still basically impossible to counter, considering specs is the strongest hitting pokémon in the tier and it can afford to run a multitude of sets to work around its checks. specs is the best set by far, but the fact it can run more utility oriented sets (like taunt z move and toxic protect) just goes to show that it also has some nice versatility to bring to the table.

the only other pokémon in a+ that should be listed alongside vanilluxe is diancie, which is also very good on its own. diancie's defensive utility is one of the best as it checks a plethora of threats in the tier and it's also a great stealth rocks setter. it has the ability to support its team through heal bell variants while also hitting decently hard even with little to no investment. the fact it has access to calm mind and good coverage moves also means it's quite hard to switch into depending on its set. earth power helps diancie break through common checks and it also has a variety of z move options it can run.

with these thoughts in mind, I believe the proper way to rank these would be:

S+

S

S-

but like I said I wouldn't be opposed to making both incineroar and gigalith a+ tier alongside vanilluxe and diancie while making slowbro the only pokémon in s, though if this route is taken then all the other pokémon listed in a+ should go down to a or lower.

the reason for that being they're really not nearly as good as they're ranked. stoutland is only good in sand and even then it's not even its best abuser, because sandslash poses as much more of a threat vs most teams due to its excellent coverage and sd. stoutland can be deadly vs some teams but normal stab is not very good in a tier where so many rock-types and steel-types are great, not to mention it being choice locked makes it rely on prediction often, which is very exploitable. if stoutland locks itself into the wrong move it can result in bad consequences for his team (say the opponent gets free layers up or a free defog), and it's easy to scout for which move the dog is gonna lock itself into because slowbro can always pivot against it. sandslash at least threatens slowbro with a +2 tectonic rage, and that should already put him on the same tier or above stoutland imo.

moving on, sneasel is also not that good. it's been extremely hurt by the recent drops, incineroar being one of his best counters and being a top 3 mon was already not helping, and the fact that it can't break through slowbro if it's z move or colbur is also ridiculous. of course sneasel is a great pokémon, but it is flawed and has hard counters in 3 out of the 5 best pokémon in the tier right now. that's not to mention its rocks weakness, lack of any defensive utility and the fact that steelix and hariyama are still very decent nu pokémon.

passimian is a great pokémon but not nearly as good as diancie or vanilluxe as well because it's extremely predictable and it's walled by the best pokémon in the tier. every passimian carries the exact same set with the potential z move fighting or choice band sometimes, but 90% of the time it's choice scarf. even if it's z move or choice band it's not breaking through slowbro regardless. although passimian is great at what it does it definitely doesn't come close to being the offensive threat that vanilluxe is or the utility wall that diancie is.

steelix is still pretty good but it's hurt by the new rockers added to the tier and by the fact that slowbro is so good. it's also a steel-type that fails to wall whimsicott and vikavolt, which extremely hurts its defensive prowess. the fact that it's basically the only rocker in the tier at the moment that fails to set up rocks vs xatu is also a major issue.

I won't bother going through all the pokémon in the other a ranks, but it's clear vanilluxe and diancie should be at least one tier above the other pokémon in a+. like I said before this can be done by either separating the s tier into s+, s and s- or by reorganizing the a and a- tier to fit the current a+ pokémon that shouldn't be there.

S

A+

other issues:

type: null is ranked way too high. it lacks offensive presence to be anything but a pivot, and it's also severely hurt by the fact that it's chipped down by both sand and hail. it relies on rest for recovery, which means it relies on sleep talk to beat what it's supposed to counter. the fact that sand is so good right now is also terrible for type: null, because this pokémon is free setup fodder for sandslash and gigalith, who can set up sd or rocks on it and force it to rest quite easily, and gets 2hkoed by stoutland. this pokémon is actually so much worse than most stuff in b+ at the moment that it should drop to b or even b-.

xatu, garbodor, silvally-steel and torterra are ranked too low. I guess the recent drops made people think xatu is worse somehow, but xatu is still the best hazard control in the tier and it forces people to build around it almost the same way as they did before. even when playing vs something that can set up rocks against it xatu still proves to have massive utility just by forcing mind games, getting chip damage with rocky helmet and pivoting around. I can't believe this mon that is borderline broken is ranked next to shit like vileplume. garbodor is also great at the moment because xatu is being used a lot less due to the drops, and since venusaur was banned golbat has dropped immensely in usage, so it's the best user of spikes and toxic spikes in the tier by far. the fact that it has access to stomping tantrum for silvally-steel, toxicroak other threats is also great, not to mention how it excels at chipping down foes with rocky helmet and aftermath. both these pokémon should be at least a-.

silvally-steel is definitely in a good position because it's the best defogger in the tier and has great utility with its standard set. being able to check most special attackers while also cleaning the field and providing utility with toxic and momentum with parting shot is something tremendously good. it should definitely be ranked higher, either b+ or a-.

torterra is the one I feel less strongly about because he's the only rocker besides steelix that fails to set up vs xatu. that said, the amount of things it walls and the fact that it's an excellent check to sand teams while being the only ground resist able to set up stealth rocks shouldn't be underestimated. it's also great at checking top tier threats such as whimsicott, heliolisk and klinklang, something not many pokémon can do. should be ranked either b or b+.

anyway those were the points I felt the need to point out since they're the most concerning regarding the current rankings. I'm not sure what's the procedure behind updating the rankings, but I hope some of these points are taken into account.

thanks for the post, just going to address a few things about it:

first of all, im pretty against giving slowbro s+ or a rank of its own. if we look at other tiers that have done this for mons above the "s" rank / above the rest of the meta, you have ubers (primal groundon), smou (landorus-therian), gscou (snorlax). the most common factor among all three is how all of them have / had seen crazy usage. looking @ april usage, primal groudon hit 76% and lando-t 46%. if we go to the nu ladder for the same timeframe, slowbro is the third most used mon in the tier sitting @ 22% usage, behind both incineroar and steelix. i agree with all the points you made regarding what makes it so good, and why it is one of the best mons in the tier, but it doesnt have the impact on the tier that i believe justifies its own rank. in your post you downplay a lot of what makes incineroar so good, and why its on the level of slowbro. while incineroar may not have regenerator, theres a lot it has to offer that slowbro cant. things like intimidate (huge on offensive and defensive sets), u-turn, and knock off all play a major role in how a defensive incineroar is played and does make it one of the best defensive pivots in the tier, at least alongside slowbro. offensive sets are way more threatening than an av slowbro can ever hope to be. id go as far as to say sd incineroar is the most threatening offensive sweeper in the tier at the moment, as its ability to set up with intimidate, great typing, and extremely powerful z move make it hard to check with anything slower than it, and hard to revenge with most faster things due to its bulk. while yes slowbro is the more "all in one" package with an av set that remains offensively threatening, its on a very different level than incineroar is, which is why i think its unfair to say slowbro is so amazingly better it deserves its own rank.

with your comments regarding gigalith, i do see some merit there and i was on the fence myself when deciding on whether or not it should be s or a+, and i decided to go with s due to the state of sand at the moment, as well as how threatening offensive gigalith sets can be on their own. vanilluxe is a great pokemon, but its always hovered around the border of a+ and s ever since mid sm mainly because of a lot of issues with its speed tier & meta trends. regarding passimian, i agree with MewBby for the most part, just because it has one set doesnt mean its not worth a+. its sitting in the great position at the moment of being the most common / best choice scarfer and revenge killer in the tier. while it cant really deal with slowbro, it still has u-turn which w/ sr & spikes does but a dent in slowbro, especially after its being forced out time and time again when its pivoting in. sure, when you see a passimian you know what its going to do, but that doesnt stop it from doing its job of revenge killing things like toxicroak / sneasel / heliolisk, and just makes it good at what it does. i also disagree with the notion steelix isnt worthy of a+ when it can be such a great glue on teams needing a rocker, though with diancie & gigalith dropping i do see the points that could make it a, but i do want to see a bit more of nupl / ladder before i fully decide on this one. i do agree stout / slash should be the same rank, whether or not thats a+ / a still warrants a bit of time watching how sand ends up in the meta, though with the recent downturn i can definitely see stout moving to a with the next shift.

i do agree with you regarding most of your other points, null moving down a rank or two, xatu and tort moving up, but im not going to get that into since i have some work to do and i think i covered most of the important points i wanted to hit on anyway. feel free to respond to try to convince me otherwise, but at the moment i dont want to bring up making an s+ / giving slowbro its own rank in the current meta, but you made a good post & brought up some great points that will be voted on with the next slate for sure.

 

[AmpharosAlt]

Hey I got some noms to make.
View attachment 119761 B+ > B maybe B-
Another mon that really hates the current metagame. With the drops of gigalith and diancie this mon really struggles to excel at anything, especially when the later walls most of its sets (unless its np grassium). Another mon really hard to justify it's usage and cant really do what it once did.

Disagree with drop. Grassium-Z is really good, and has basically no switch ins bar Guzzlord, Hariyama, and Incineroar. Doom can also run a lure for Incineroar with mud shot-z for a good chunk of damage [252 SpA Houndoom Tectonic Rage (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 214-252 (64.6 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO]. Destiny bond is nice for playing mind games, causing Gigalith to have to play a 50/50 between switching out on a predicted Dbond and Stout/Slash taking a lot from blast if the prediction was wrong, or click stone edge on the off chance it doesn't go for Dbond and dropping if it predicts incorrectly. Flash fire, though not as useful as it once was, is still really nice considering the rise of rotom and silvally-steel, one of which loves to click wisp and one of which has to click flamethrower to hit lix. I can see it dropping to B, because of Incineroar, but I think it's still the second best fire type in the tier, and undeserving of B-

 

[banks]

clefairy ur -> c / c+
clefiary holds quite a few valuable traits in the current metagame, being a great specially defensive pokemon that is able of pivoting freely in against some of the top tiered pokemon as of right now, such as diancie, slowbro, rotom, blastoise etc and having the ability to just start firing off seismic tosses for free, mitigating any form of passivity against the likes of klinklang and incineroar, as well as knock off, considerably annoying most switch-ins like steelix and ferroseed. overall clefiary's main quality lies in it's ability to easily come in against prominent foes like the aforementioned diancie, slowbro, rotom, blastoise and so and so fourth, and begin to chip away at foes with ease thanks to the combonation of seismic toss + knock off, making it a decent pick for semi-stall / stall / bulkier variants or esque teams.
replay displaying how effective clefairy can be s/o to paper dreams for coming up w the idea of using clef in the first place

clefairy set

Clefairy @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Knock Off

blastoise b -> b+
blastoise has became more recognised as competent hazard remover as well as defensive pivot, mainly due to blastoise being very annoying to actually switch into with it's stab spammable scald in tandem with toxic, irritating most water-resists like slowbro and guzzlord by putting them on a timer. blastoise also finds itself in a fairly good state in the current metagame, acting as a reliable switch-in against pokemon like steelix, palossand, defensive diancie, defensive gigalith, less offensive variants of rhydon, and piloswine. in addition to this, blastoise also soft checks mainy more offensively orientated pokemon such as incineroar, sneasel, klinklang if no electrium z or if z-crystal has been used, houndoom and common pokemon right now that can be annoyances to teams like xatu and garbador.

for some examples to expand on the point of blastoise being an annoyances to teams with its water stab + toxic, i've compiled some nupl games to try and show blastoise's effectiveness - this isn't meant to be a bashing or me being disrespectful to these users just to clarify

vs.

lax vs. snagaa
the common theme here is that both teams have one specific dedicated water resist lying in slowbro and drampa, then another 1 or 2 soft checks, lying in rotom. excluding drampa, blastoise is free to click scald without any repercussions, and drampa is easily chipped by toxic damage and from support by other teammates. whereas lax's team, blastoise is able to toxic miltank (its not heal bell) and slowbro to easily chip them down and can click scald without real consequences, rotom taking 40 with the addition from rocks and chances to burn realistically only allowing rotom to come in twice against toise.

garay oak vs. kory2600
garay's team's primary blastoise checks are vaporeon and cryogonal, which both hate being crippled by toxic, whilst vaporeon has heal bell as its disposal, having a minimal pp of only 8, it doesn't make for an amazing check.

also in support of accelgor to b- | torterra to b / b+ | absol to b-
in disagreement with golabt dropping | sandslash rising | silvally-steel rising | spiritomb unranking (cm rest is still dangerous)

 

[poh]

--> Lower

The meta is quite aggressive atm and Audino can't really keep up with it. The main selling point of Audino is in my eyes the fact you can wishpass reliably without needing to mega evolve right away, keeping regen on it. Now the issue is that Audino needs to mega evolve way faster than it used to do, compromising that amazing wishpassing ability. Things like Toxicroak, Incineroar, Sandslash and Passimian are running rampant so Audino really struggles. Could probably move to A-, maybe B+.

C ranks

I know nobody really cares what dwells in there but I feel some of the mons in there should drop or be unranked completely.

(embodiment of Rain) has no place in NU since Sand and Hail are the main weathers.

should probably drop too since it doesn't have that Emboar-check label and our newest rockers have an easy time beating it.

was once ranked cause Veil and then it kept dropping and the only niche it has is HO Lead or whatever. Outclassed as a breaker and HO leads like Omastar and Crustle are just better imo. Unrank.

very bad mon, this can drop to D since it's still NU by usage somehow.

What others suggested

Don't drop Guzzlord. Specs, Mixed and Dragonium sets are still good and can heavily punish teams that don't have a reliable answer to it.
Agree with elodin 's post, maybe less about the S ranks question.
Don't drop Golbat. Being able to check Sceptile is greatly appreciated and fastbat is amazing.
Drop Type: Null. Kinda has the same issues Audino has and other mons like Steelvally, AV Slowbro, Hariyama replaced its role as a blanket check to special attackers.
Torterra should rise. Good rocker, strong stabs, answer to sand, reliable recovery. Solid mon.

 

[Modulo]

Sneasel: A+ -> A

I feel like Sneasel has a really hard time in the metagame rn. Aside from maybe AV Bro (which is double-edged IMO), the more recent meta trends have not been kind to it. The advent of sand means additional residual damage, which Sneasel despises; many current top-tier offensive mons resist at least one of Sneasel's STABs (Incineroar, Passimian, Vanilluxe, Toxicroak) and can abuse Sneasel being locked into an according move, and good defensive answers to it like Gigalith, Diancie, Steelvally and Hariyama are trending.
On the contrary, the mons Sneasel usually preys on have a hard time themselves. Druddigon and Altaria are nowhere to be seen thanks to Diancies and Comfeys popularity, Sigilyph and Xatu steadily decrease in usage.
It's obviously still a good mon with some major upsides (revengekilling Whimsi/Sceptile, trapping Xatu/AVBro/Slowking), but I think A+ is overselling Sneasel rn.

 

[AmpharosAlt]

I am going to echo a previous nomination
Bronzor UR>C+/B-
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Psywave/Protect
- Toxic

This thing is seriously under rated. Levitate Bronzor wins versus every relevant rocker in the tier bar Palossan and some variants of Druggidon with psywave and can counter many threats in the tier like Whimsicott, Vanilluxe, specs Dianice (probably the most notable of all), Sceptile, and Heliolisk(to a degree). Also a rocker that actually wins versus Blastoise, which is complete godsend, as no other rocker can claim to do so.

 

[Rabia]

I am going to echo a previous nomination
Bronzor UR>C+/B-
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Psywave/Protect
- Toxic

This thing is seriously under rated. Levitate Bronzor wins versus every relevant rocker in the tier bar Palossan and some variants of Druggidon with psywave and can counter many threats in the tier like Whimsicott, Vanilluxe, specs Dianice (probably the most notable of all), Sceptile, and Heliolisk(to a degree). Also a rocker that actually wins versus Blastoise, which is complete godsend, as no other rocker can claim to do so.

I personally am also a fan of Bronzor since it also has a pretty alright matchup against Sand other than Knock Off from Sandslash, though I feel Rest is essential on Bronzor to actually do its job well; you're going to be using Bronzor to check a plethora of threats and with neither passive recovery nor move such as Recover or Slack Off, Rest is necessary to continue sustaining. I'd run something like this:
Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
- Psywave
- Toxic

 

[shiloh]

nu viability rankings update | june 19th, 2018

like last time im going to include a spreadsheet with how we voted.

click here to check it out
​

heres a summary of rises and drops:

rises

lycanrock c- -> c
xatu b+ -> a-
torterra b- -> b
scrafty b -> b+
sandslash a -> a+
palossand b+ -> a-
clefairy ur -> c-

drops

minior c- -> d
type:null a- -> b+
drampa c- -> ur
articuno c- -> ur
froslass c -> c-
clawitzer c -> c-
altaria c -> c-
spiritomb c+ -> ur
houndoom b+ -> b
uxie b- -> c+
shuckle c -> c-
audino a -> a-
ludicolo c+ -> c-
aurorus c -> ur

this was a fairly small update, but there were a few things that we were more split on. mainly the two being cryogonal to b-, and garbodor to a- as we were split 5-5 on both of those. would love to see more thoughts about those two for the next shift to see what you guys think.

i also held off voting on gigalith for now as it is being suspected, we'll be taking another look at it once the suspect test is over.

see you guys again after the suspect n_n

 

[Captain Maybe]

So... my favorite Pokémon was a 5-5 split huh? Well I'm gonna go ahead and say it: B+ is where he needs to be. Garbo is setup fodder for the most part for Slash and fares poorly vs. Sand in general. He's still good and definitely has his place, but until Sand bites the dust, I don't see him rising to A- very soon.

Cryo should stay in B. He definitely lingers between the two, but I find that he still has all his positives to him. Certainly, the match up with Gigalith and Sand isn't great and he loses to other rockers, but he does have many positives that I think keep him just alive enough. Most grasses bar physical Sceptile can't do too much and he checks some new guys like Torterra decently. I think that's the word to describe him. "Decent". Can't get much more decent-defining than B in my opinion.

 

[Yoshi]

-> B- (Agree)
I'm not really sure what made people want Cryogonal to stay B in the first place. With Pokemon like Gigalith and Diancie being the most prominent Pokemon in the tier, it's kind of hard for Cryogonal to perform its job by any means. Not to mention, Incineroar is still a big thing, and while Sneasel definitely dropped down in viability and usage, is certainly still something Cryogonal needs to look out for. I could go on for hours talking about how other Pokemon, like Passimian and Steelix, keep Cryogonal in check. Therefore, all in all, I think a B- rank is the perfect rank for Cryogonal to go drop down to, as its kind of viable but doesn't like the recent meta trends with every team having at least one very consistent check.

edit: I meant to say in the first sentence that I was confused as to why some people wanted to stay B, poor wording on my part.

-> A- (Disagree)
I can see why you might want this to rise, hazard stack does seem kind of valuable in the meta, but I don't think that means it should rise to A-. Hazard stack HO is less viable than the currently used Screens HO (with Diancie and Xatu), and I just don't think it's usable enough over Screens to warrant a rise for Garbodor. I will agree that it is usable on certain teams, and I think Garbodor is a perfectly viable mon, but I don't think anything has really happened for Garb for it to rise to A-, in fact there have been more negatives than positive. All in all, Garbodor should definitely be staying at A-.

 

[Rodriblutar]

Articuno UnRanked since when? Its one of the best Moons that can be used in stalls teams, pressure, defog, heal bell. With the good support beat articuno is so dificult. If you can see his potential see my spl game vs teddeh or my nupl game vs PursuitAndHappyni. I have many stalls with him but Im reserving them for slam but you will see him slaying everyone for sure

 

[HeartfulKitty]

Articuno UnRanked since when? Its one of the best Moons that can be used in stalls teams, pressure, defog, heal bell. With the good support beat articuno is so dificult. If you can see his potential see my spl game vs teddeh or my nupl game vs PursuitAndHappyni. I have many stalls with him but Im reserving them for slam but you will see him slaying everyone for sure

So, I'm far from an active NU player (or an active community person at all, I only recently created a smogon account despite playing for a while), but just from passively observing it seems that sand teams have been dominating the past lil while, and articuno is quad weak to the primary type appearing on them: rock. With mons like gigalith and diance, along with incineroar, being pretty damn common, articuno is put at a pretty big disadvantage. This is also compounded by the fact that its one good set as a staller is hurt because it's quad weak to stealth rocks, meaning it's immediately constrained on what it can switch in on and what it can do once it switches in. It also has no good way to hurt pokemon like steelix and is easily revenge killed by passimian if it chooses to run with rock slide (who is a fairly common mon currently). All in all, it seems like the meta has taken a massive turn for the worse for articuno, to the point where it's simply just not viable considering all of the negatives it has to face in the current meta.

Although again, I'm not really an active NU player and all of this is just coming from casual observation, so I'm open to corrections if I'm incorrect on any points.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

So, I'm far from an active NU player (or an active community person at all, I only recently created a smogon account despite playing for a while), but just from passively observing it seems that sand teams have been dominating the past lil while, and articuno is quad weak to the primary type appearing on them: rock. With mons like gigalith and diance, along with incineroar, being pretty damn common, articuno is put at a pretty big disadvantage. This is also compounded by the fact that its one good set as a staller is hurt because it's quad weak to stealth rocks, meaning it's immediately constrained on what it can switch in on and what it can do once it switches in. It also has no good way to hurt pokemon like steelix and is easily revenge killed by passimian if it chooses to run with rock slide (who is a fairly common mon currently). All in all, it seems like the meta has taken a massive turn for the worse for articuno, to the point where it's simply just not viable considering all of the negatives it has to face in the current meta.

Although again, I'm not really an active NU player and all of this is just coming from casual observation, so I'm open to corrections if I'm incorrect on any points.

You're right. Sand is the reason why many Fire- and Ice-types dropped or got unranked

 

[Rodriblutar]

So, I'm far from an active NU player (or an active community person at all, I only recently created a smogon account despite playing for a while), but just from passively observing it seems that sand teams have been dominating the past lil while, and articuno is quad weak to the primary type appearing on them: rock. With mons like gigalith and diance, along with incineroar, being pretty damn common, articuno is put at a pretty big disadvantage. This is also compounded by the fact that its one good set as a staller is hurt because it's quad weak to stealth rocks, meaning it's immediately constrained on what it can switch in on and what it can do once it switches in. It also has no good way to hurt pokemon like steelix and is easily revenge killed by passimian if it chooses to run with rock slide (who is a fairly common mon currently). All in all, it seems like the meta has taken a massive turn for the worse for articuno, to the point where it's simply just not viable considering all of the negatives it has to face in the current meta.

Although again, I'm not really an active NU player and all of this is just coming from casual observation, so I'm open to corrections if I'm incorrect on any points.

This is why people thing in articuno as a single pokemon, obviusly is p weak, but the support he give to stalls (good stalls has to have st least 2 hazard control and one of them to remove hazard in gigalith and rhydon) is amazing. In fact, stalls teams (good stalls) re free win vs sand. Articuno doesnt have to be v hight in PR cause he only works in stall teams but unraked is ridiculous cause he gives an amazing support to stall but as people dont like this arqueotype or dont know how built a good stall team they dont realiza how good can going to be

 

[kay]

Rises:

A- --> A

In the wake of AV Slowbro gaining popularity, AV King has really fallen out of favor with a lot of players, causing it to drop. But after messing around with it on a lot of teams for NUPL I think people really sleep on just how good this mon really is. The special bulk when paired with an AV brings it to absurd levels, and you have access to the Dtail + Future Sight combo that can literally steal games away with a good phaze. It also completely abuses all Slowbro variants (aside from Z-Zap cannon but that's not really a thing) which only helps its case for being a sleep pick this format. NP 3 attacks and OTR are also amazing sets worth using!

A- --> A

Sceptiles a mon that really enjoys the Venu ban that I feel like hasn't really caught on as much as its deserves. Grass + Fighting coverage is insanely hard to switch into right now given Golbat has dropped off in usage, and it still boasts an amazing speed tier that allows it to outspeed all of the unboosted metagame. It can power through a lot of the normal grass resists such as Silvally Steel, Guzzlord, and Slash-a. Overall its kind of a bitch to deal with.

B- --> B+

Torts been slowly climbing the ranks of the VR but not nearly fast enough. Torts one of the best generic special walls thanks to its unique typing, rocks, and reliable recovery. The insane bulk allows it to sponge up most natural special hits, and its usable ATK stat + strong options in wood hammer and EQ allows it to be more then just a passive wall. Very good mon and I can honestly see it hitting A- some day.



Drops:

B+ --> B-

Do people even still use this? I've seen rough skin rocky helmet builds put in a bit of work as they can really annoy Passimian, but I think B+ is way to high for what it actually does. Xatu isn't nearly common enough to justify its mold breaker sets either, and the influx of fairy types in our meta only hinders its ability to phaze with Dtail and spread Glares. Its not doing anything this format and should drop.

A --> A-

Okay so these have all been kinda safe noms so I'm going to throw a bit of a controversial one for the sake of discussion. Whimsicott is a mon I've been using quite regularly, but in testing I've always found I'd rather have a Sceptile for a strong generic special attacker thanks to how the metas shaped up. Less Golbat and more Silvally-steel has really hurt this little grass fairy as it struggles to break the more common grass resists floating around, and more fairy types in the tier like Diancie makes the niche of having a strong fairy type less unique to it. I think this mon would be the best mon in A- by far, but I see it as a step under Sceptile right now so I'd like them to swap places.




As for the other things discussed, I agree with Rodriblutar in that Articuno should still be ranked. Its bulky as hell and annoying to deal with and fits perfectly on stall which gives it a viable enough reason to be ranked. I think Garb and Cryo are fine where they are at, and Tomb shouldn't be unranked because Crotomb is good.

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

Cryogonal -> B- Disagree
Cryogonal might be the best defensive hazard control (besides Xatu). Its ability to eat special hits and recover makes it a great option on stall teams. I see it as the prototypical b rank pokemon. It has weaknesses, but can florish on the right team
Garbodor -> A- Agree
Garbador is a great spiked. It has acess to both spikes and can set them up easily as it pressures every hazard control except for rotom. Also, its abilty is annoying as it can damage u even after ur dead. Not to mention its great offensive typing and drain punch which can deal with the steel types.

 

[Rabia]

rise

A- -> A
Like esteemed-Room Owner Kay has mentioned, Sceptile really benefits from both the decreased usage in Golbat as well as it being able to break through common defensive cores really easily by virtue of its coverage. Garbodor has gotten a bit better recently, but it is far from a solid answer to standard Choice Specs Sceptile.

B -> B+
Vikavolt appreciates the prominence of AV Slowbro as well as Pokemon it can reliably pivot into such as Passimian and Sceptile. Its access to Roost further bolsters its ability to pivot in on resisted hits such as Sceptile's Leaf Storm multiple times, which is really appreciated in the current meta.

B- -> B
Probopass is generally appreciated by Comfey builds because it can trap and remove Steel-types preventing Comfey from running through teams. Giving teams a reliable answer to threats such as Vanilluxe and Whimsicott is also appreciated, as well as hard-walling Klinklang and setting up Stealth Rock on most opposing Stealth Rock users because of Magnet Rise.

C- -> higher
Weezing struggled to find a niche as a defensive Poison-type when Venusaur was down, though I don't believe Garbodor and Vileplume have that same sort of stranglehold on that. Weezing not only bops Sand pretty effectively, but also is a real hard Passimian counter and deals with physical Toxicroak variants quite well, while also handling the myriad of offensive Grass-types pretty alright outside of Psychic from Whimsicott and Hidden Power Psychic from Sceptile (no clue how common that is tho). It also appreciates the rise of Torterra as a Stealth Rocker it can Taunt and beat 1v1, while also providing neat utility options in Toxic Spikes, Will-o-Wisp, and Haze.

drop bop

B+ -> B
I'm not a Braviary believer at all. While it sits at a nice speed tier for a Choice Scarf user, Passimian generally outclasses it by virtue of its access to Knock Off while also possessing better natural bulk, allowing for it to pivot in better off hard switches. Sub + Bulk Up suffers from being unable to break through the myriad of Flying-resists the tier has such as Diancie and Steelix (which has Curse to set up alongside Braviary). Tier shifts may make this nomination less convincing, but as stands currently Braviary is no bueno.

B- -> lower
It's still Ambipom, but cuter.

oh and maudino and houndoom should be updated to their correct ranks (both down 1 rank)

 

[shiloh]

removed gigalith, will move stout & slash back to ur during the next vote unless someone makes post for it. looking to get another vote before nu open r1 so lets get some posts in.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

removed gigalith, will move stout & slash back to ur during the next vote unless someone makes post for it. looking to get another vote before nu open r1 so lets get some posts in.

They'll move up to NU this month so they'd be in D rank

 

[LRJ87]

Sandslash and soutland should drop down to c at least, gigalith is gone so they don't do anything anymore