Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

Finchinator

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#1

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*Credit to PK Gaming for OP*

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

  • EX: Zygarde can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Toxapex can be can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.
Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Ranking Team:
We are alphabetical just like the mons.

SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the online Pokedex. Also, each Pokemon will have a link to its individual analysis for detailed information. Just click on their names to be taken to their respective analysis. http://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon

Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ultra-sun-moon-sets-vr-thread.3621908/

SM OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank
Heatran
Landorus-T


A Rank:

A+ Rank
Clefable
Ferrothorn
Greninja
Greninja-Ash
Kartana
Tapu Koko
Tornadus-T
Toxapex
Zygarde

A Rank
Celesteela
Hawlucha
Latios (Mega)
Magearna
Magnezone
Medicham (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Lele
Tyranitar

A- Rank
Alakazam (Mega)
Chansey
Gliscor
Kyurem-B
Latias (Mega)
Mawile (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Tangrowth
Volcarona

B Rank:

B+ Rank
Gastrodon
Gyarados
Hoopa-U
Lopunny (Mega)
Pelipper
Reuniclus
Sableye (Mega)
Swampert (Mega)
Tyranitar (Mega)
Weavile
Zapdos

B Rank
Alomomola
Charizard (Mega X)
Diancie (Mega)
Excadrill
Gengar
Gyarados (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Keldeo
Kingdra

Latios
Mamoswine
Mew
Rotom-W
Suicune
Venusaur (Mega)
Victini

B- Rank
Amoonguss
Garchomp
Hippowdon
Mantine
Quagsire
Jirachi
Latias
Manaphy
Tapu Fini
Terrakion
Volcanion

C Rank:

C+ Rank
Araquanid
Azumarill
Bisharp
Blacephalon

Charizard (Mega Y)
Ditto
Hydreigon
Manectric (Mega)
Marowak-Alola
Mimikyu
Serperior
Shuckle
Skarmory
Stakataka
Thundurus

C Rank
Alakazam

Camerupt (Mega)
Crawdaunt
Cresselia
Gallade (Mega)
Garchomp (Mega)
Muk-Alola
Nidoking
Ninetales-Alola
Qwilfish
Slowbro (Mega)
Thundurus-T
Uxie

C- Rank
Aerodactyl (Mega)

Altaria (Mega)
Avalugg
Azelf
Dragonite
Garchomp (Mega)
Golem-Alola
Nihilego
Pyukumuku
Scolipede



Rules - Now updated 5/17/2017
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
  • No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.
  • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
  • Pokemon that are OU simply by usage do not guarantee them a spot in the rankings
  • When new Pokemon/Mega Stones are released, please hold off on discussing their ranking placement for at least a week to avoid theorymoning
  • Failure to follow these rules after multiple warnings will result in an infraction or possibly worse
  • POST REPLAYS FOR NOMINATIONS FROM UNRANKED TO RANKED OR YOUR POST WILL BE DELETED!!! (Example of GOOD UR Nomination)
Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these pokemon will be deleted.

  • You if you piss me off
  • Alolan Marowak
  • Mimikyu
  • Swampert

Happy posting
 
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Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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OU Forum Leader
#2
FIRST UPDATE OF ULTRA SUMO

Rises
Added to S
A ---> A+
Added to A-
B+ ---> A-
B ---> A-
C ---> B
C+ ---> B
C+ ---> B-
Added to B-
UR ---> C+


Drops
A+ ---> A
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
B+ ---> B
C- ---> UR
C- ---> UR
C ---> UR


  • Naganadel has very quickly proven itself to be the most dangerous offensive Pokemon in the tier. Its Nasty Plot set is extremely difficult to counter reliably outside of keeping SpD Heatran very healthy, Chansey with Thunder Wave, or AV Tyranitar, which also has to worry about Nagas that often pair themselves with T-tar lures. While its other sets are only decent, its NP set is extremely difficult to stop once its gotten a kill because of the Speed boost, and outside of strong or super effective priority, or Scarf Greninja, it's very difficult to revenge kill. Being able to set up on the metagame's premier defensive Pokemon in Toxapex is also huge. It practically invalidates rain as a playstyle, has made Webs and Veil more viable just from its presence, and is still able to shit on defensive teams because of its immunity to Toxic and near perfect coverage. It's easily the most defining offensive Pokemon in the tier, and its rank should reflect that.
  • Tyranitar has become a top 5 pick with the addition of Naganadel and Blacephalon in the tier. Not only is it the ONLY reliable switch-in to Blace, but it's also capable of soft checking even NP Naga with Assault Vest. Choice Band is also still very good, being able to trap Blace as well as still being nigh impossible to switch into. Overall, Tyranitar's role as a fat Dark-type Pursuiter has only gotten more and more valuable, which is why it deserves a rise, even if Naga were to leave the tier. It fits very nicely on many of the bulky offenses and balances running around, which otherwise struggle vs Blace.
  • Blacephalon is been receiving mixed reactions from people; some think it's terrible because of T-tar's massive presence, while others think it's a massive team building constraint that forces the meta into being Pursuit heavy. Regardless, anyone who has been playing the ladder recently should be well aware that any team lacking a T-tar is going to have a massively difficult time dealing with Blacephalon. Specs is insanely strong, 2HKOing SpD Pex after Stealth Rock, and OHKOing pretty much any offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it. While its Speed tier isn't amazing, it's still high for a wallbreaker, putting it above everything relevant defensively and above other notable Pokemon such as Landorus-T, Zygarde, and Tapu Lele. Choice Scarf is also a cool set, being able to shred through offensive teams late game with its powerful STAB moves. We felt like A- was a good fit for now, because while it's an absolute menace to some teams, it does have its fair share of bad match ups, mostly versus Webs and T-tar balance. Although, T-tar is very susceptible to being weakened and lured, so keep that in mind before denouncing Blacephalon as useless in any T-tar match ups.
  • Weavile is very solid right now, being one of the few Pokemon in the tier that reliably revenge kill Naganadel with Band Ice Shard, as well as Pursuit trapping Blacephalon and all the Scarf Greninjas running around. Its STAB moves are very strong in general, as Magearna hates losing its Assault Vest, and other Pokemon like Mega Mawile or T-tar take a lot from Icicle Crash. It just has a great match up vs a lot of these teams atm, and pairs very well with Naganadel.
  • Defog finally allows Rotom-W to separate itself from other defensive pivots in the metagame. Its immune to both Spikes which is huge, and takes neutral damage from SR, much like Latios. On top of that, Rotom-W's defensive typing is still hella lit, being able to pivot into Protean Gren decently well as well as Mega Pinsir, fat Lando, Heatran, Celesteela, etc. It's easily one of the best Defoggers to pair with Volcarona, considering its defensive typing covers some of Volc's weakness quite well, and Volt Switch gives it free opportunities to come in. It's one of the more splashable hazard removers, so it warrants quite a big jump.
  • Gliscor, while not used as much as Rotom-W atm, is still a very good remover. It fits very well on fat balance, and because of its multitude of recovery options as well as utility, it basically completely shuts down passive hazard setters such as Lando-T, and Toxapex. While it's not as splashable as Rotom-W and doesn't really fit on more offensive teams because of its passive nature, it's easily one of the most durable removers in the tier, and is very successful at keeping hazards off the field, more so than other defensive removers such as Skarm, which can be trapped, and is very susceptible to being knocked off. Gliscor could very well go higher in the future, but it needs to be explored more, as many people are still spamming Defog Lando-T.
  • Mega Latios is really solid in the current meta. Tyranitar is everywhere, as well as Heatran, both of which are not switch-ins to Mega Latios. Combined this with the fact that Mega Latios pairs very well with Blace, it's a very solid pick in the meta and is starting to become more than just a super niche pick. Latios on its own is sort of being forced to run Z lure moves for T-tar, because Scarf sets are just really vulnerable to it, but with Mega Latios, Tyranitar is extremely pressured to ever come in vs those kinds of Blace builds. Outside of Mega T-tar, Mawile, Scizor, and the occasional Lopunny, there currently aren't a ton of super splashable Megas running around, so Mega Latios finds more opportunities to see usage.
  • Bisharp rose because of the massive influx in Defog. While some of the Defoggers can still threaten Bish, it's sheer presence still pressures them from Defogging, as even Pokemon like fat Lando, Gliscor, and Rotom-W don't like eating a +2 Knock or Iron Head. This is especially bad if your defogger is something like Scarf Lando, Latios, or Koko. Webs is also a bit more common atm, which obviously Bish fits on well.
  • Stakataka is by no means an amazing Pokemon, but it's still quite a threat that people need to be aware of. While CB is getting the most usage, its best set is arguably OTR Rockium, being able to slice through Celesteela and Rotom-W. Gyro Ball does so much to common physically defensive Pokemon such as Lando-T, Gliscor, and Mew, practically OHKOing offensive variants of Lando even after an Intimidate. It's very good on TR teams, which are seeing good usage again, and is also just a very good anti offense mon in general. Its massive bulk also prevents it from being revenged easily lacking a strong STAB move or 4x move. Also it basically has Moxie if it's IVed correctly, which is neat.
  • Araquanid has seen usage on ladder for its ability to lay Webs while being an offensive threat, unlike every other Webber. The VR team considers it about equally as good as Shuckle, because it trades the ability to set rocks to actually pose as an offensive threat. Cool mon.
  • Tapu Lele has fallen off a bit in usage due to the influx in Heatran and T-tar. Its choiced sets are highly pressured by both Weavile and T-tar, and it no longer really wants to run Psychium Z anymore because it needs Z Fight to break the AV T-tars.
  • Latios is falling off a bit due to AV T-tar and T-tar in general. It's basically forced to run Z move or a Mega to touch it.
  • Mega Diancie is a pretty awkward Pokemon to build with currently. Its defensive typing isn't that useful, Mega Scizor usage is still quite high, it's not bulky enough to soft check Naganadel, and it really needs Sub Endeavor to really do much vs AV Magearna teams. Its hazard pressuring abilities it mediocre considering mostly all of the common hazards mons can beat it, and with all the Defoggers running around, more teams can afford to run Defog instead of relying on Diancie's pressure. Many of the other Megas are getting more usage.
  • Gengar dropped because it now faces a lot of competition from Blacephelon as an offensive Ghost-type breaker. Even with Focus Blast, it still can't really break AV T-tar, and its extra Speed isn't super significant considering Keldeo is still seen running Scarf a lot of times and Latios is a Speed tie.
  • Slowbro is unviable. Just use Pex/Mola/Mega Bro
  • Cofagrigus is too niche to consider. As an offensive Ghost-type, both Gengar and Blace give it massive competition. As a TR abuser or OTR mon, just use Stakataka, which has a much stronger STAB move and actual coverage.
  • Chandelure is actually useless now. This shouldn't need an explanation.

Naganadel to S: All agreed except one stubborn boy
T-tar A to A+: All agreed
Tapu Lele A+ to A: All agreed
Mega Diancie A to A-: All agreed
Kartana A to A+: 50/50 most want to wait a bit
Blacephelon to A-: Most said A-
Weavile B+ to A-: Most agreed
Rotom-W B to A-: Most agreed
Gliscor C to B: Most agreed
Gengar B+ to B: All agreed
Mega Latios C+ to B-/B: Most said B
Stakataka to C+/B-: Most said B-
Bisharp C+ to B-: Most agreed
Chandelure C to Unranked: All agreed


Keep in mind that this is the FIRST UPDATE. The meta is still only a few days old, so some of these new Pokemon ranks might not be incredibly accurate. Also, keep in mind, a lot of Pokemon we chose not to move around due to Naga's presence, because there is a very high possibility of it getting banned this week, and thus most of the ranks would just end up getting revoked.

This will get unlocked at the end of this week. I'm feeling generous. It will be on a short leash though, and will get re-locked if people fuck it up.


More in depth explanations.
 
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#6
Personally I think that even with Naga being banned. Ttar should stay in A+. Its work as a Trapper is still great, and it still is arguably the best check to the insane power of Blacephalon. And Band still 2HKO's the god that is Toxapex. Band also OHKO's Stak outside of TR. Which is a niche calc but one I thought I'd throw out there. Even the AV set still has its uses, such as it isn't 2HKO'd by Magearna and takes care Trans even if they run something outlandish like Z-Flash Cannon. Though AV will obviously decline in favor of Band, it still has merit.

I feel that many will call for it to drop, but I think Ttar is still a super solid Mon in the meta, totally worthy of an A+ rank and has more than just one set worth using.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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#7

Not a nom, but the first thing I want to say here is that Blacephalon should remain A- rank. I know a lot of people are going to dismiss it as overhyped garbage and request it move down because it loses to TTar, but outside of that it's actually really solid. Specs is a really strong wallbreaker which can punch massive holes in teams, and can even 2HKO standard Bandtar after rocks with HP Grass or Ground, so it's not like it's completely useless vs it. Any team without TTar is probably in big trouble if it lets this thing get a free turn, and while its speed isn't amazing it's still pretty impressive for a walbreaker. Mind Blown was thought to be garbage at first but I personally find it really useful as a powerful and, crucially, perfectly accurate fire STAB you can use if you know you're not going to be able to send Blace in anymore and just want to deal as much damage as possible before you go.
Scarf is a pretty good too, and thanks to Explosion, it's one of the few things that reliably revenge kills Volcarona which is neat. I haven't used that particular set too much, and I've found Specs's raw power to be generally more useful and give Blace a stronger niche with less competition, but I've heard from other players that Beast Boost turns Scarf Blace into a really good cleaner.
Overall, Blace amazing or anything, but A- is more than justified imo.

Okay, now the actual noms:

Rotom-W -> B+. I think people are really hyping this thing up way too much. Yes, it does get Defog, and beating the main SRer in the tier is pretty good. But… it’s still Rotom-W. It’s still easy to wear down, it still struggles to keep up with the metagame’s power level, and it’s still very limited in terms of what it actually beats.
I honestly find Gliscor to be a better defogger, even if it probably isn't as good a Pokemon overall. While Rotom is a better VoltTurn user (U-Turn Gliscor, from my experience, is terrible), Gliscor still beats Landorus-T and Heatran, but it also beats Toxapex instead of forcing a stalemate, and isn’t completely stopped by the third big hazard setter, Ferrothorn, which no longer minds burns that much. It’s also much harder to wear down thanks to its ability giving it passive recovery while also making it immune to Poison, which is especially relevant since Lando-T will often spam U-Turn in order to wear down Rotom which is not something it can do for Gliscor. Not to mention, that, unlike Rotom, it has actual recovery, enabling it to act as a much more consistent hazard remover for balance teams.
Oh, and this is just a detail, but you really want your bulky Water to be able to switch into Ash-Gren, and Rotom just can’t take Dark Pulses no matter how much SpD it runs.
So, yes, Rotom might be more splashable and a better fit for bulky offense, but personally, I much prefer a scarfed Defogger like Latios, Kartana or Landorus-T on those kinds of teams, because Rotom’s ability to switch into stuff is just not good enough.


Mega Medicham -> A- This thing definitely needs to move up imo, obviously it loves the increase in usage of Tyranitar which it completely destroys, but there are other metagame trends it likes such as the decrease in usage of stall making Sableye less common, and the increase in usage of Sticky Webs which it works very well on. It's also more versatile than people think, personally I've been really enjoying Substitute MMedi since it can ease prediction a lot, and really helps vs random stuff that tries to Protect on you like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Blacephalon's introduction is a double-edged sword for it since it makes it harder to mindlessly spam HJK, but it's also a fantastic partner since it just crushes all of Blace's switchins and vice-versa and generally benefits from the exact same kind of support.
Overall, it’s just a very strong wallbreaker which is always going to put in work against any team that isn’t either full HO or hard stall, and it’s definitely more on par with than stuff like Pinsir and Lopunny than Heracross and XZard. Heck I can even see it going up even further since it requires so little support to wreck teams, and although it's lacking in speed and has almost no bulk, it can be ablesolutely terrifying with the right support. (incidentally, Thunder Punch isn’t great nowadays, you’re probably better off with Zen Headbutt for MVenu and Clefable)


Mega Lopunny -> A I’m not as confident with this nom, since MLop still struggles a lot with Toxapex and the influx of Scarf Greninja is an issue for it. Still, Mega Lopunny has improved for much the same reasons as Medicham, namely, the increase in usage of Tyranitar, which it takes advantage of very well. But people have also started getting more creative with MLop recently, venturing outside of the usual HJK/Return/Fake Out/Ice Punch set in order to patch its flaws or even provide team support.
While I do think Ice Punch is kind of a necessity given how common Landorus-T is, Fake Out isn’t really mandatory anymore, and I’ve had a lot of success using Power-Up Punch to break through fat stuff like Toxapex and MVenu, and make it harder for more offensive teams to force it out with something slower that can usually take a hit and KO back. Some have also been using Encore which I'm not hugely fond of, but that can really screw over defensive Pokemon if you play it right, which is pretty appealing. There's just a lot of interesting stuff you can do with MLop, and this is becoming more and more acknowledged as of late.
But what's most defining about it is still how much of a nightmare it can be for offense to deal with, and that definitely makes it one of the best megas at the moment.

also lol how is Hawlucha not at least B+ that mon has like 5 checks in the entire tier
 
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#8

Mamoswine: B- to B

I'm not quite sure why weavile rose and Mamoswine didn't. Ground Stab is as valuable as ever in the current metagame, with threats like Stakataka, Heatran, Toxapex, Mega Mawile, and Tyranitar running around. Ice stab also lets it shut down some of the new defoggers too like Lando-T and Gliscor. While it does have to deal with mega lopunny more, it benefits from a ghost type on the team and it is one of Mamoswine's only checks. The extra damage, Fire neutrality, and better physical bulk along with some other cool moves like superpower and stealth rock helps it distinguish itself from Weavile. These calcs show how much various mamoswine sets can do to some of the new threats in the meta. Also, while life orb is the most common set, I have seen many more sets like Z crystal sets and scarf and band sets are all grossly underrated, especially the choice band set which does ridiculous damage.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 393-463 (108.8 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 662-780 (222.8 - 262.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mamoswine Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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#9
I nominate torn from B- to B. This pokemon is unique its access to the ability regenerator and the moves defog and taunt.
It has a solid speed tier and hits decently hard. It beats common hazard users like ferrothorn and toxapex through either coverage such as heat wave for ferrothorn or taunt for toxapex. It also beats lando-t sets that don't carry rock type coverage as hp ice cant beat torn without it being severely whittled. I think it holds a solid niche on bulky offense as an defogger. Its versatility between sets make its solid choice as well. The best sets so far, in my opinion; is the taunt flynium z defog u-turn set or the z-move three attacks plus defog. one of the flaws it has however is that many threats such as tapu koko kyurem-b Clefable etc either force it out or whittle it severely. Also its weak to stealth rock making it less desirable over another defoggers.
Calculations
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 313-370 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 292-345 (74.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
#10

Not a nom, but the first thing I want to say here is that Blacephalon should remain A- rank. I know a lot of people are going to dismiss it as overhyped garbage and request it move down because it loses to TTar, but outside of that it's actually really solid. Specs is a really strong wallbreaker which can punch massive holes in teams, and can even 2HKO standard Bandtar after rocks with HP Grass or Ground, so it's not like it's completely useless vs it. Any team without TTar is probably in big trouble if it lets this thing get a free turn, and while its speed isn't amazing it's still pretty impressive for a walbreaker. Mind Blown was thought to be garbage at first but I personally find it really useful as a powerful and, crucially, perfectly accurate fire STAB you can use if you know you're not going to be able to send Blace in anymore and just want to deal as much damage as possible before you go.
Scarf is a pretty good too, and thanks to Explosion, it's one of the few things that reliably revenge kills Volcarona which is neat. I haven't used that particular set too much, and I've found Specs's raw power to be generally more useful and give Blace a stronger niche with less competition, but I've heard from other players that Beast Boost turns Scarf Blace into a really good cleaner.
Overall, Blace amazing or anything, but A- is more than justified imo.

Okay, now the actual noms:

Rotom-W -> B+. I think people are really hyping this thing up way too much. Yes, it does get Defog, and beating the main SRer in the tier is pretty good. But… it’s still Rotom-W. It’s still easy to wear down, it still struggles to keep up with the metagame’s power level, and it’s still very limited in terms of what it actually beats.
I honestly find Gliscor to be a better defogger, even if it probably isn't as good a Pokemon overall. While Rotom is a better VoltTurn user (U-Turn Gliscor, from my experience, is terrible), Gliscor still beats Landorus-T and Heatran, but it also beats Toxapex instead of forcing a stalemate, and isn’t completely stopped by the third big hazard setter, Ferrothorn, which no longer minds burns that much. It’s also much harder to wear down thanks to its ability giving it passive recovery while also making it immune to Poison, which is especially relevant since Lando-T will often spam U-Turn in order to wear down Rotom which is not something it can do for Gliscor. Not to mention, that, unlike Rotom, it has actual recovery, enabling it to act as a much more consistent hazard remover for balance teams.
Oh, and this is just a detail, but you really want your bulky Water to be able to switch into Ash-Gren, and Rotom just can’t take Dark Pulses no matter how much SpD it runs.
So, yes, Rotom might be more splashable and a better fit for bulky offense, but personally, I much prefer a scarfed Defogger like Latios, Kartana or Landorus-T on those kinds of teams, because Rotom’s ability to switch into stuff is just not good enough.


Mega Medicham -> A- (or A) This thing definitely needs to move up imo, obviously it loves the increase in usage of Tyranitar which it completely destroys, but there are other metagame trends it likes such as the decrease in usage of stall making Sableye less common, and the increase in usage of Sticky Webs which it works very well on. It's also more versatile than people think, personally I've been really enjoying Substitute MMedi since it can ease prediction a lot, and really helps vs random stuff that tries to Protect on you like Ferrothorn and Celesteela. It’s just a very strong wallbreaker which is always going to put in work against any team that isn’t either full HO or hard stall, and it’s definitely more on par with than stuff like Pinsir and Lopunny than Heracross and XZard, heck I can even see it going up even further since it requires so little support to wreck teams (incidentally, Thunder Punch isn’t great nowadays, you’re probably better off with Zen Headbutt for MVenu and Clefable)


Mega Lopunny -> A I’m not as confident with this nom, since MLop still struggles a lot with Toxapex and the influx of Scarf Greninja is an issue for it. Still, Mega Lopunny has improved for much the same reasons as Medicham, namely, the increase in usage of Tyranitar, which it takes advantage of very well. While I do think Ice Punch is a necessity given how common Landorus-T is, Fake Out isn’t really needed, and I’ve had a lot of success using Power-Up Punch to break through stuff like Toxapex and, and make it harder for teams to force it out with something slower that can usually take a hit and KO back. It can be an absolute nightmare for offense to deal with and it’s definitely one of the best megas at the moment.

also lol how is Hawlucha not B+ that mon has like 5 checks in the entire tier
Fake-out on M-Lopunny can still be useful . Such as breaking Mimikiyu's disguise and robbing it of a chance to set up SD. Ensuring it can kill Tapu Koko without it having a change to retalitiate. Even able to revenge kill weakened faster threats M-Alakazam or normal Alakazam holding Focus Sash.

But yea. Fake out is not the staple move it was for M-Lopunny back in GenVI
 
#11
I don't know how intelligent my post is but I will try to at least sound smart. Here are my 2 cents on Toxapex. What this pokemon does is obvious. It tanks hits from threats it is supposed to wall, it scatters toxic spikes, it neutralizes setup sweepers with haze, it knocks off items and it scald burns. Not to mention a fantastic ability in regenerator that provides little to no risk in switching in and out. In a sense, it defined the meta. I won't go into much more detail as it has already been covered adequately in the past why toxapex has a real value as an S rank pokemon. However, with the introduction of ultra sun and moon, i feel that things have changed for toxapex. Firstly, the introduction of two new mons, stakataka and blacephalon, who are capable of netting a ko on toxapex with some prior setup or prediction, the first through an earthquake and the second through running psyshock. Secondly, with the addition of knock off, toxapex truly struggles with 4-move slots syndrome and is more easily countered after being scouted. Thirdly, the number of potent t-spikes immune defoggers has risen (landorus, tornadus, rotom, kartana, scizor, gliscor, latios, zapdos to name but a few), all of them mons completely viable and dangerous in their own right in the OU tier, thus not hindering your team's potential in the slightest. Lastly, toxapex is a pretty straight forward pokemon. It walls certain threats to prevent them from sweeping, therefore every well built team takes toxapex cores into consideration and has a form of breaking it down, either through a z move or through a taunt user (namely trapper heatran set). For these reasons, I reckon that the beginning of USUM has not been kind on toxapex and I believe it should hold no place in S rank, but instead it deserves all respect as an A+ rank pokemon. Thank you for taking your time to read my post.
 

Jordy

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#12
(latias)
B+ -> B
Mega Latias has a hard time in the current metagame, the surge of Tyranitar and Weavile really hurts its ability to sweep as well as its support set, both sets struggle a lot in the current metagame and i don't think Mega Latias is deserving of B+ because of this.


A- -> B+
I think that Rotom-W is one of the best newly introduced defoggers but i think that A- is overselling it it suffers heavily from 4MSS which holds it back, the fact u have to choose between split and wisp is really annoying since without wisp ur only having 1 time recovery via iapapa berry and with split ur missing out on properly checking mons like Bisharp and Tyranitar.
 
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#13
I don't know how intelligent my post is but I will try to at least sound smart. Here are my 2 cents on Toxapex. What this pokemon does is obvious. It tanks hits from threats it is supposed to wall, it scatters toxic spikes, it neutralizes setup sweepers with haze, it knocks off items and it scald burns. Not to mention a fantastic ability in regenerator that provides little to no risk in switching in and out. In a sense, it defined the meta. I won't go into much more detail as it has already been covered adequately in the past why toxapex has a real value as an S rank pokemon. However, with the introduction of ultra sun and moon, i feel that things have changed for toxapex. Firstly, the introduction of two new mons, stakataka and blacephalon, who are capable of netting a ko on toxapex with some prior setup or prediction, the first through an earthquake and the second through running psyshock. Secondly, with the addition of knock off, toxapex truly struggles with 4-move slots syndrome and is more easily countered after being scouted. Thirdly, the number of potent t-spikes immune defoggers has risen (landorus, tornadus, rotom, kartana, scizor, gliscor, latios, zapdos to name but a few), all of them mons completely viable and dangerous in their own right in the OU tier, thus not hindering your team's potential in the slightest. Lastly, toxapex is a pretty straight forward pokemon. It walls certain threats to prevent them from sweeping, therefore every well built team takes toxapex cores into consideration and has a form of breaking it down, either through a z move or through a taunt user (namely trapper heatran set). For these reasons, I reckon that the beginning of USUM has not been kind on toxapex and I believe it should hold no place in S rank, but instead it deserves all respect as an A+ rank pokemon. Thank you for taking your time to read my post.
I personally disagree with a pex drop because it is an extremely defining and centralizing force. Firstly, being one dimensional isn’t really a problem for toxapex when you still Wall 90% of the tier. It is a staple on every balance team which is super popular on the ladder and in general for a reason, with its ability to keep otherwise balance breakers in check. Blacephalon and Stakataka didn’t hurt it too much as neither are particularly reliable switching to pex. Toxic Spikes also put an extreme strain on teambuilding, forcing every team to run defog or poison absorbers in order to not lose to a well played pex. Gaining Knock off didn’t really hurt it, as it simply gained another option, and Toxapex can function perfectly without it. I feel that it’s insane usage, influence in the metagame, the ability to wall 90% of the tier, and while still being extremly annoying to switch into despite its low offensive stats make me feel toxapex is a worthy s tier mon.
 
#14
I personally disagree with a pex drop because it is an extremely defining and centralizing force. Firstly, being one dimensional isn’t really a problem for toxapex when you still Wall 90% of the tier. It is a staple on every balance team which is super popular on the ladder and in general for a reason, with its ability to keep otherwise balance breakers in check. Blacephalon and Stakataka didn’t hurt it too much as neither are particularly reliable switching to pex. Toxic Spikes also put an extreme strain on teambuilding, forcing every team to run defog or poison absorbers in order to not lose to a well played pex. Gaining Knock off didn’t really hurt it, as it simply gained another option, and Toxapex can function perfectly without it. I feel that it’s insane usage, influence in the metagame, the ability to wall 90% of the tier, and while still being extremly annoying to switch into despite its low offensive stats make me feel toxapex is a worthy s tier mon.
Yeah, Pex currently dominates a lot of the metagame. It's a premier hazard setter while also being a general annoyance to almost the entire tier. There are legitimate arguments for a suspect test and ban, but that's for another day.
 

Finchinator

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#15
Dropping Toxapex should not happen. Toxapex was one of the best Pokemon in the tier prior to the USUM release, perhaps being seen as the vanguard of SM OU, and it is very likely to retain this status in the coming weeks. Not only does it wall a majority of the threats in the tier, but it also only improved with the implementation of USM as it now has a new move to use, in Knock Off. I suppose you can argue the surplus of Defog users hurts it, but in reality I think that it makes Toxapex the Pokemon itself more effective as now there is more reason to use Toxic over Toxic Spikes, which lets it 1v1 a number of things it otherwise did not. While Toxic Spikes being less prominent might drop it a slight amount in usage, I find this to not be a problem seeing as it will still be one of the most common Pokemon in the tier and a staple on a number of bulkier balance builds. Oh right and also it walls Scarf Blacephalon and Magma Storm Heatran took a hit in usage, so these both go in the favor of Toxapex, too. In conclusion, Toxapex should 100% remain where it is and not move unless there is a clear metagame shift involving it.
 
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#16
Gotta respect this mega, it sub ddanced my ass to the 1800+ world.


Gyarados-M B- -> B

Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch / Earthquake
- Substitute

If targets like haze mantine, ferrothorn, tangrowth, venusaur-m, etc are taken care of easily on your team, eq can be used over crunch to destroy pex, magearna, and more.

Gyarados-M finds plenty of setup opportunities in the USUM meta at the moment, especially with the substitute set. Setting up on heatran, defensive lando, celesteela, quagsire, ash gren, volcanion, weavile, water-locked rain mons, etc while scaring out a plethora of threats like ttar is really big (although ttar users might get a little crazy and try to stone edge you, expecting a ddance). Blacephalon is a new threat it can set up on, too. Toxapex having to run spdef is also really big, because:

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Gyarados-Mega Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 154-183 (50.8 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

You can essentially stall toxapex out of recovers by repeatedly ddancing and crunching, then go on your way with a sweep anyway. Trying to haze twice in a row is very risky, as eating +1 crunch followed by +0 crunch without recovering forces toxapex out. Toxapex can't even break the sub anyway, so this is a temporary stalemate in your favor. Oh, and this all assumes you're not running eq > crunch.

The rise of trick room is also huge, because you can anti-lead uxie by using substitute. Sub makes memento fail, so uxie is stuck and has to hard switch out, letting you get a free turn to boost or damage sweepers. Trick room really struggles to deal with this gyarados set.

The substitute set is also much harder to revenge kill than the taunt set, as your revenge killer is forced to take a hit and potentially be ko'd as you continue sweeping. Sub still lets you set up on non-whirlwind skarmory (a dying set and mon) while dodging scald burns, so not much is lost from forgoing taunt.

I feel that as a cele/pex breaker and threatening anti-meta sweeper, gyarados-m is a step above many B- mons like zard y, bisharp, terrakion, and gallade-m. I also feel that its threat level is as high as the non-mega set in the B tier, and has a more useful collection of traits than other pokemon in the B tier like fini or gliscor.
 
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#17
I think mew needs to drop. This is pretty simple to understand. With more Pokémon being able to use Defog and toxapex starting to carry toxic mew has lost a lot of what made it good before. Tyranitar rising also is a problem for it because all it can really do to a ttar is Willo wisp and if it tries to Defog ttar will come in and destroy it. Blacephalon coming into the tier also does not help it because mew is pretty much dead weight against that Pokémon. Not to mention weaving is also rising.

Just look at recent rises and drops. All the Pokémon mew hates are rising (tyranitar, weavile, bisharp, gliscor, rotom wash) and all the Pokémon new beats are falling (tapu lele, latios)
 
#18
Alright, this thread is looking lit so far, time for me to make nominations too!
Charizard Y to C+
I made this nomination a few times before, this mon is absolutely horrible right now. It can’t so it’s job as a balance breaker because of Toxapex, is too easily pressured by offensive builds, and faces too much competition from Blacephalon, who is faster, has a better offensive typing, not deadweight against popular bulky builds, requires less support, can hold an item, and takes up a mega slot. While Charizard Y does have a few good matchups such as rain, I feel Zard Y is overrated in b-, like putting Zard Y there is a slap in the face to mons like Mega Gyarados and Stakataka.
Mega Gallade to C+
Again, with Mega Medicham getting better by the day and Mew going down in usage, there is very little reason to consider using this mon. Knock off isn’t a good enough niche over Medicham to warrant B-, especially since Gallade has seen very little ladder success as well as in tournaments after the hype died.
Tapu Fini to B-
Another example of a mon who is just outclassed all around. There is very little reason to use Tapu Fini over Mantine, who is bulkier, reliable recovery, and can check rain. Stallbreaking is isn’t really needed on teams anymore with how little usage stall has at the moment, and Tapu Fini hates the fact that defog has much wider distribution. Non scald sets also let Blacephalon come in for free, and give Stakataka free setup. Despite how much usage this thing gets on the ladder, it’s just not good at all right now, and it’s ranking should reflect that.
Terrakion to C+
Again, very little reason to use this mon over better scarfers. I find Scarf Nihilego better than it as it offers amazing support in absorbing T spikes as well as setting them up. Charti Berry Volcarona is deader than disco right now, and there is almost no reason to run stealth rock Terrakion over Landorus and Garchomp.
Thats all for now.
 
#19
So should M-Lopunny go to A- to A? . It can deal with a lot of common metagame threats such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Kartana , non-Choice-scarf Greninja, Stakataka, if it becomes popular and Tapu Koko if it runs Fake-Out.
Yea it can stuggle vs Toxapex but it has a chance to power though it using Power up punch and other support.
 
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#20
Stakataka: B- to B

Stakataka has proved to be quite a powerhouse in OU. It's main attack, Gyro Ball, hits for insane damage with minimum speed, and can pull off amazing feats like OHKOing Garchomp with Max attack and a life orb. On top of this, it gets Trick room to change its incredibly low speed and gives it a good chance to sweep. OTR sets are arguably the best too, especially when paired with Rockium-Z to blow past stuff like Celesteela, Rotom W, Alomomola and bulky fat pokemon. Also, its ability beast boost can be used to get an attack boost too if you give staka a lonely nature and 14 or lower defense ivs. At +1 attack in Trick room, it can be very hard to stop and almost impossible to switch into, especially with a Choice band or a life orb. While B rank may seem like it is overselling it a bit, it is definitely more of a threat than Mimikyu, Serperior, and Tornadus, and seems more on par with pokemon like Gengar, Mega Heracross and Mamoswine (which btw mamo should also rise for reasons i said on my mamo post)
 
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#21
Mega Loppuny should DEFINITELY go to A. With facade + pup it can break through many balances and quick attack+a high speed stat in general is super nice against offense. Fighting types are amazing right now being able to beat ttars and trans and steel types. It can also run fake out for mimikyus and stuff to prevent them to set up. This thing is amazing right now and should definitely rise.

I also think that hawlucha should go up to B+ or A-. This is one of my absolute favorite mons right now and it can steel games by itself. The main thing about this is that it almost always gives you a wincon against most teams and it is super easy to fit on a team with all the tapus being so common and splashable. It also has all the great things that lopunny has in being a fighting type.
 
#22
I recommend dropping Magnezone to A- --> B+.

There are so many ground attackers in the tier that it is incredibly frail/susceptible, has no power when running AV to try and be a pivot, and has no bulk when running specs/Z-move when it really wants both. Honestly should have dropped before USUM came in, but now it seems way out of place with the rest of mons in A-

It checks 3 mons reliably: Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and M-Scizor, however, these mons will see a drop in usage from increased Heatran usage and Blacephalon's introduction, or you should just honestly run those two to counter those specific mons and hold a much larger niche than Magnezone. I know those aren't trappers like Magnezone, but forcing the switch and using one of those mons incredible versatility (sub/rocks/toxic on Heatran) or stopping power (Anyone of Blace's stabs or trick) is a much better idea in this meta. If you run into none of these 3 mons Magnezone is literally deadweight, all the old threats are still here along with Gliscor/Chomp/Mamo/Pert all rising in usage.

I know my argument could be better, if anyone else wants to elaborate please do, but I'm dead sold on Magnezone dropping at least to B+


Second Nom is Kartana to A+

I know this has been debated for a while, but the addition of knock off gives Kartana yet another really solid set (C-Banded Kartana) as well as a better fit than Smart Strike in the Scarf/SD sets, which was in reality a poor placeholder of a third attacking move that everyone wishes was a little stronger or had better coverage. And while night slash was okay as well, its power was still too low to justify clicking it without a Z-move. Even if your opponent switches to a mon that forces you out, it now no longer has an item, which is huge on the plethora of defensive mons like Ferrothorn/Celesteela/Toxapex.
 
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#23
I recommend dropping Magnezone to A- --> B+.
There are so many ground attackers in the tier that it is incredibly frail/susceptible, has no power when running AV to try and be a pivot, and has no bulk when running specs/Z-move when it really wants both. Honestly should have dropped before USUM came in, but now it seems way out of place with the rest of mons in A-

It checks 3 mons reliably: Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and M-Scizor, however, these mons will see a drop in usage from increased Heatran usage and Blacephalon's introduction, or you should just honestly run those two to counter those specific mons and hold a much larger niche than Magnezone. I know those aren't trappers like Magnezone, but forcing the switch and using one of those mons incredible versatility (sub/rocks/toxic on Heatran) or stopping power (Anyone of Blace's stabs or trick) is a much better idea in this meta. If you run into none of these 3 mons Magnezone is literally deadweight, all the old threats are still here along with Gliscor/Chomp/Mamo/Pert all rising in usage.

I know my argument could be better, if anyone else wants to elaborate please do, but I'm dead sold on Magnezone dropping at least to B+
I think this is too generous for Magnezone, honestly. I think it should drop to B or even B-. Its niche is really declining along with the drop in Magearna and Celesteela usage, and it has way too many checks and counters to be viable.
 
#24
I think this is too generous for Magnezone, honestly. I think it should drop to B or even B-. Its niche is really declining along with the drop in Magearna and Celesteela usage, and it has way too many checks and counters to be viable.
While I’m not entirely opposed to a Magnezone drop, Keep in mind that Pokémon don’t generally move more than one subrank per update unless if something vital to its viability is banned, or it gained something new that made it much more usable. For an example, before Baton pass was banned, Scolipede was in A-, but after, it dropped all the way down to C+. Another example is Victini. Victini used to be c-, but when celebrate victini was released it rose two subranks in the next update. Magnezone is still good on a lot of teams as a lot of Pokémon like latios, Tapu Lele, and Mega Pinsir really enjoy Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor our of the picture.
 
#25
A- -> A
Agreed
I will keep it short since many here have already talked about this, but Mega Lop is quite nice on this meta.
Not only is really good against Ttar, Tran and Bisharp, all of which have been very common lately thanks to being effective anti meta trends, but several mons that would give it problems (Like Scarf Lele as an example) are not as good as they were before.

For my own nom

C- -> Unranked
This mon has been pretty irrelevant for quite a while now, and I'm honestly surprised that it has stayed in the VR for so long. I don't remember it winning any games (nor used at all) in any important tournament in the last 6 months. I might be wrong on that last one tho.

The Z-Conversion set isn't good. Every Choice Scarf user ever can beat it. While the defense boost are nice and 135 +1 is strong, it can only set up once in the game, and if you switch out after setting up, you have a deadweigth mon in your team, making it very restrictive to when to set up. Sure, its Special Attack is about as good as Volcarona, but Volc can set up multiple times without having to waste a Z-move, meaning that I can run a much wider selection of items, including offensive Z-moves.
I know there is a Nasty Plot Z-Hyper Beam set, but I have never seen that set put work in an actual match, and I don't see it being that good in a meta where Stall is not quite common

With Tyranitar and Tran being so common, AV Mag regaining popularity, and with so many threats not letting it set up in the first place, Porygon-Z struggles even more in the OU tier. Even when compared to the rest of C-, Porygon looks like the worst of the bunch.
 
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