I see lots of people who are saying that RS is a waste of time, since its easy to set up SR. Well from what it looks like, based on the recent tournament, stacking SR and Spikes is very common, and is causing a huge problem for most teams. For this reason alone, I usually like to try to include a RSer in my teams, I mean 38% is a lot of damage, and from warstories, people seem to very switch happy these days. Sure SR alone may not be worth it, but if spikes are as common as I think, I think it may almost be necessary. Perhaps Jibaku could give his testimony as to how useful and deadly stacking SR and Spikes are.
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Utility discussion: Rapid Spin
- Thread starter Dragontamer
- Start date
Stealth Rocks can get really annoying though for Focus Sash users as well as all those common flying types like Mence and Gyara which is why Rapid Spin imo should be used if you're team has pokes like that.
Then again, I just like Donphan ^_^
Then again, I just like Donphan ^_^
My take on the spinners. tl;dr warning.
Blastoise - UU Rapid Spinner, probably the best in UU. Would have been good in OU if only he could hurt the ghosts without resorting to Toxic. A viable option if you don't want a more defensive water spinner besides Starmie.
Sandslash - UU Donphan but it isn't seen much as a Rapid Spinner mainly because it gets Swords Dance and people lean more towards the attacking version.
Starmie - Great speed and nice Special Attack combined with the ability to hurt ghosts (well maybe not Dusknoir), makes it an excellent choice for Rapid Spinning if only it didn't have the Dark (more like Pursuit) weakness. Oh well, you can't get everything.
Forretress - The only thing it can do decently. Ok it can spike decently too. Again has a problem hurting ghosts and also is a bait for set-up pokemon.
Donphan - Probably the best Rapid Spinner in this generation. Excellent attack and defense and nice HP means it can in so many times. Resistance to Stealth Rock also helps greatly.
Hitmontop - Another UU poke. Doesn't see much use I don't know why. Fighters in general are defesively weak. But this dude and nice Special Defense and an awesome ability (Intimidate). Good candidate for UU spinning.
Torkoal - Defensive fire types suck. You don't see much spikes in NU so don't see him spinning either.
Claydol - One of the best spinners again if only he didn't have Psychic typing which is both a boon and weakness. But resisting both Spikes and Stealth Rock is nice.
Tentacruel - Has better things to do than spinning (read sweeping) but can be used for surprises in UU.
Cloyster - Ice is a bad defensive typing. Crap HP and Special Defense doesn't help either. Add to that weakeness to Stealth Rock and this becomes not so good for spinning.
Hitmonlee - Shouldn't be spinning. This isn't like its GSC brother. Better suited to sweep.
Hitmonchan - Same case as Hitmonlee.
Kabutops - Acess to Swords and Swift SWim means it is again better as a sweeper. But it has a nice attack, so it can hurt the ghosts but it can't take hits forever.
Delibird - lol. 4x weak to rock hurt it. Even if it was absent, its stats don't warrant Rapid Spin usage. Better to Hustle+CB+Aerial Ace.
Armaldo - Unlike Kabutops this thing can take hits. Not being 4x weak helps too. But rock weakness doesn't left much desired for. This can spin only if you are not so much fan of Swords Dance.
(Assuming there is not too much change in tiers)
Blastoise - UU Rapid Spinner, probably the best in UU. Would have been good in OU if only he could hurt the ghosts without resorting to Toxic. A viable option if you don't want a more defensive water spinner besides Starmie.
Sandslash - UU Donphan but it isn't seen much as a Rapid Spinner mainly because it gets Swords Dance and people lean more towards the attacking version.
Starmie - Great speed and nice Special Attack combined with the ability to hurt ghosts (well maybe not Dusknoir), makes it an excellent choice for Rapid Spinning if only it didn't have the Dark (more like Pursuit) weakness. Oh well, you can't get everything.
Forretress - The only thing it can do decently. Ok it can spike decently too. Again has a problem hurting ghosts and also is a bait for set-up pokemon.
Donphan - Probably the best Rapid Spinner in this generation. Excellent attack and defense and nice HP means it can in so many times. Resistance to Stealth Rock also helps greatly.
Hitmontop - Another UU poke. Doesn't see much use I don't know why. Fighters in general are defesively weak. But this dude and nice Special Defense and an awesome ability (Intimidate). Good candidate for UU spinning.
Torkoal - Defensive fire types suck. You don't see much spikes in NU so don't see him spinning either.
Claydol - One of the best spinners again if only he didn't have Psychic typing which is both a boon and weakness. But resisting both Spikes and Stealth Rock is nice.
Tentacruel - Has better things to do than spinning (read sweeping) but can be used for surprises in UU.
Cloyster - Ice is a bad defensive typing. Crap HP and Special Defense doesn't help either. Add to that weakeness to Stealth Rock and this becomes not so good for spinning.
Hitmonlee - Shouldn't be spinning. This isn't like its GSC brother. Better suited to sweep.
Hitmonchan - Same case as Hitmonlee.
Kabutops - Acess to Swords and Swift SWim means it is again better as a sweeper. But it has a nice attack, so it can hurt the ghosts but it can't take hits forever.
Delibird - lol. 4x weak to rock hurt it. Even if it was absent, its stats don't warrant Rapid Spin usage. Better to Hustle+CB+Aerial Ace.
Armaldo - Unlike Kabutops this thing can take hits. Not being 4x weak helps too. But rock weakness doesn't left much desired for. This can spin only if you are not so much fan of Swords Dance.
(Assuming there is not too much change in tiers)
Spikes + SR are only deadly if:
1) The opponent has no Spinner, or if you can lol at their spinner
2) You find all the time to set up.
3) You can force a lot of switches
Also, since Spinners aren't very good in D/P. Starmie is weak to Pursuit, Donphan has no recovery (Skarmory WILL eventually wear it down with Drill Peck, while Donphan can't do anything to Skarmory but Spin its Spikes and phaze it off. Drill Peck does 13%-15%), Claydol is a set up bait for many pokemon and the rest of the spinners are rather lol.
Skarmory has a recovery move, so once you find a pogey in your opponent's team to set up on, you will attempt to keep trying to bring that guy out so you can spike. Swampert can cause switches on many ground types and easily Stealth Rock on the opponent. He does not fear any spinner except for Starmie.
Furthermore, there's Dusknoir, who is very common in teams, making the Spin attempts useless.
1) The opponent has no Spinner, or if you can lol at their spinner
2) You find all the time to set up.
3) You can force a lot of switches
Also, since Spinners aren't very good in D/P. Starmie is weak to Pursuit, Donphan has no recovery (Skarmory WILL eventually wear it down with Drill Peck, while Donphan can't do anything to Skarmory but Spin its Spikes and phaze it off. Drill Peck does 13%-15%), Claydol is a set up bait for many pokemon and the rest of the spinners are rather lol.
Skarmory has a recovery move, so once you find a pogey in your opponent's team to set up on, you will attempt to keep trying to bring that guy out so you can spike. Swampert can cause switches on many ground types and easily Stealth Rock on the opponent. He does not fear any spinner except for Starmie.
Furthermore, there's Dusknoir, who is very common in teams, making the Spin attempts useless.
Oh, so rapid spin only works when it actually hits the opponent? Has that been tested?
Yes.
Teams that seriously utilize Spikes and/or Stealth Rock will always have at least 1 of either Gengar, Mismagius, Dusknoir, or Spititomb, it isn't as if there aren't any good OU ghosts to block spinning with their mere presence.
Anyway, Claydol is the best at coming in on spikes and SR on paper, too bad even with its new toys Earth Power and Shadow Ball allowing it to skip splitting EVs it can't do anything noticable to ghost types not named Gengar, and that's after you pump its SA up to around 230.
Donphan, Armaldo, Blastoise and Hitmontop are probably your best bets.
Sure, people discount Blastoise, but Aqua Ring helps it alot, and if anything, you can use Brine to take out weakened Ghosts. Or, since most ghosts will Shadow Ball or Thunderbolt you, you could try Mirror Coat. Actually... with Blastoise you could even use Yawn to force them to either switch, get inflicted with Sleep and made prime Pursuit bait later, or lose spikes. Doesn't work if they have two ghosts, though.
Really, Dusknoir are Spiritomb are the biggest pain out of all the ghosts. Misdreavus and Gengar are Pursuit bait.
Anyway, Claydol is the best at coming in on spikes and SR on paper, too bad even with its new toys Earth Power and Shadow Ball allowing it to skip splitting EVs it can't do anything noticable to ghost types not named Gengar, and that's after you pump its SA up to around 230.
Donphan, Armaldo, Blastoise and Hitmontop are probably your best bets.
Sure, people discount Blastoise, but Aqua Ring helps it alot, and if anything, you can use Brine to take out weakened Ghosts. Or, since most ghosts will Shadow Ball or Thunderbolt you, you could try Mirror Coat. Actually... with Blastoise you could even use Yawn to force them to either switch, get inflicted with Sleep and made prime Pursuit bait later, or lose spikes. Doesn't work if they have two ghosts, though.
Really, Dusknoir are Spiritomb are the biggest pain out of all the ghosts. Misdreavus and Gengar are Pursuit bait.
Iirc, Stone Edge can do some damage and when Skarmory roosts, you can predict that and EQ away (Donphan should be slower)
Did you just recommend Choice-Band on a Rapid Spinner? :-p Life-Orb... maybe. But switching your Rapid Spinner out so that it can... rapid spin... sounds like an self-defeating strategy at best.
CBDonphan (with Rapid Spin) used to be a standard in Advance. SO it can work in this generation too. Using Life Orb without having a reliable recovery move and the fact that CB is there to hurt the ghosts on the switch-in hard, CB will always be more preferable than Life Orb.
I mean, if you're gonna do that, why have Rapid Spin on Donphan at all? You will force 2 more switch-ins on yourself at least before the Spikes/Stealth Rocks are gone if you get locked in because of CB. Life Orb is also new, not in Advance. So I think it is worth checking out at least with Wish Support. (Plenty of nice pokemon with Wish)
Well... since we're seeing alot more offensive teams these days than defensive teams, Stealth Rocks has become more popular than Spikes. In any case, it's alot easier in my opinion to put up SR than it is to RS, especially since the Pokemon has to switch in then Rapid Spin, potentially taking two attacks. The RS can also be foiled by Ghost types like Dusknoir or Gengar (Dusknoir being a staple of most Spike/SR teams that I've seen).
It is always better to be proactive than reactive.
Just my two cents.
It is always better to be proactive than reactive.
Just my two cents.
You can hammer and almost OHKO dusknoir with an earthquake, and it calls for some interesting prediction games after you hit them once. Should they switch in dusknoir to block spin but risk dying to eq?If you're smart, you can punch a rapid spin in there and start using donphan as a conventional CBer.
How is rapid spin donphan awkward?...
And dusknoir won't destroy your team in the least. Almost all of the time your opponent will send out dusknoir when donphan rears his ugly head, and that's a free earthquake, forcing dusknoir to switch. With life orb, there's a good chance dusknoir's lefties will change it to a 3HKO, making it worse... plus, life orb's recoil can be bothersome after taking a hit.
Its not Dusknoir I'm worried about. Its Gengar + the wasted turn. Unless you know their team well, you're gonna have to risk getting trapped in the wrong attack (IE: doing earthquake or rapid spin against Gengar).
Furthermore, this means that _after_ you rapid spin, you have nothing to do but switch out. Rapid spin is a pathetic 20 BP attack, 30 with choice band. Thats three turns used: one on the switch, one on the switch out, one for the rapid spin.
With life orb, you save one turn in comparison. You switch in, you don't even have to rapid spin yet... you can earthquake now or even stone edge. And you rapid spin when ready (hopefully soon. You don't want them to switch into a counter). Furthermore, you can keep donphan in there as you need him.