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Vegetarianism

Hitler was a vegetarian too.
Not fully relevant, but since this is such a widespread belief:
Hitler was not a vegetarian. Even sources that said he ate mostly a vegetarian diet say that he did enjoy meat every now and again. He ate meat.

The same goes for those pescaderians out there. Fish are animals. You eat fish. You eat animals. You are NOT a type of vegetarian. So what if a fish isn't a mammal?
 
The same goes for those pescaderians out there. Fish are animals. You eat fish. You eat animals. You are NOT a type of vegetarian. So what if a fish isn't a mammal?

THANK YOU COOKIE!!!

You're pulling this crap out of your rear end, I think......crap is promoted by PETA types

I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass. I've read lots of books on the subject, taken advanced environmental classes, and written multiple papers in which my sources had to be sighted.

"Amount of marine life that is hauled up with the fish and discarded per person...210 Kilograms"

Source: Reversing the Spread of Hunger and The Effects of Aquaculture

I don' Pull anything out of my ass. Period. Thats just insulting.


And the whole PETA thing, that just really bugs the fuck out of me. I don't get ANY of my info from them. They dont give two shits about the environment.
 
THANK YOU COOKIE!!!



I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass. I've read lots of books on the subject, taken advanced environmental classes, and written multiple papers in which my sources had to be sighted.

"Amount of marine life that is hauled up with the fish and discarded per person...210 Kilograms"

Source: Reversing the Spread of Hunger and The Effects of Aquaculture

I don' Pull anything out of my ass. Period. Thats just insulting.


And the whole PETA thing, that just really bugs the fuck out of me. I don't get ANY of my info from them. They dont give two shits about the environment.


People have written endless amounts of papers on the wonders of communism and how effective it is as a system of governance. Just because someone has written about it does not lend it automatic credibility. Global Doom Theory is a very profitable business, much more profitable than fishing and meat manufacturing because all they need is a willing dupe to make outrageous claims under the veil of science. Meat manufacturerers and fisheries have a long-term economic interest not overfarming/overfishing, and while I'm sure there's a few irresponsible dopes out there, but by and large overfishing hurts the entire industry.

All Global Doom Theory needs is one scientist that they can reference over and over again. I'm sorry, I'm not going to swallow that humanity has reduced the oceans to 10% of their initial food supply. That is an outlandish claim that is hardly testable. Think about it, if 90% of the oceans were culled of life, wouldn't there be worldwide starvation? With the supply cut that low it would be impossible to bring it back, the populations currently there could not sustain themselves, and the entire ocean ecosystem would have collapsed in a matter of a decade, maybe less.

I'm calling BS on that. Anyone can spout global doom theories and blame evil corporations, it's standard communist rhetoric the world over.
 
I think killing for sport is wrong.. I still eat meat because eating meat is natural for humans.

Hunting for sport is just wrong imo, unless you are actually going to eat the animal you kill.
 
Killing for sport is NOT natural. If 'natural' is defined as what the primitive humans did, they would eat everything and anything they killed, and if they had spare time (like during the agricultural era), they would educate themselves or try to make things more efficient, not just go kill some deer "just because".

Also, the premise for communism is great, actually. The unfortunate thing is that no rocket scientist or brain surgeon wants to be paid the same as a construction worker or a janitor.
 
actually hunting for sport is documented throughout history dating back to when man was just beginning. sure they ate the animals they killed, and most hunters nowadays do too or they donate the meat to some kind of charity so it isn't going to waste most of the time, but you can't overlook the fact that they compared who had the biggest catch and that is a form of sport. thats essentially what sports are, a competition to see who is the better in some way or another.
 
All Global Doom Theory needs is one scientist that they can reference over and over again. I'm sorry, I'm not going to swallow that humanity has reduced the oceans to 10% of their initial food supply. That is an outlandish claim that is hardly testable. Think about it, if 90% of the oceans were culled of life, wouldn't there be worldwide starvation? With the supply cut that low it would be impossible to bring it back, the populations currently there could not sustain themselves, and the entire ocean ecosystem would have collapsed in a matter of a decade, maybe less.

I hate to say it but it really is common knowledge that our worlds oceans have decreased in population by 90%. Even time magazine accepts this and made it the cover story of one of there issues.

There have been multiple documentaries on the subject and o yeah....

Its back by 49 Noble prize winning scientists.

Also you say you refuse to believe that, so why don't you do some research about the issue, cuz its blatantly obvious that you haven't read up at all on this subject.
I hate fish. I love steak. So what? It is human nature to kill. We kill for sport and we kill to eat. Why do you have to go against what is natural?

There is nothing natural about humans preforming a yearly genoside on entire species that we pump full of hormones and chemicals to change the color of there flesh, the amount of flesh on there body, and the amount of milk they produce.

Theres nothing natural about even going to the supermarket and buying food.

If you want to go natural, eat organic foods.

And killing isn't natural for humans, is something we have been classically conditioned to accept.

Why do people post in this thread that have do no research on the befits and down sides of a vegetarian diet.


Some many of you say, " I think what ______ said is bull shit"

Well go read some fucking book and find out for your selves.
 
I hate to say it but it really is common knowledge that our worlds oceans have decreased in population by 90%. Even time magazine accepts this and made it the cover story of one of there issues.

If it's common knowledge, it is common only to you.

There have been multiple documentaries on the subject and o yeah....

There are documentaries claiming that the US Health Care system is inferior to Cuba's and that 9/11 was an inside job. The existence of a documentary does not make that documentary's assertions true.

Its back by 49 Noble prize winning scientists.

Too bad the Nobel Prize has since become just another trophy for the left-wing zealot du jour (As do endorsements by TIME, which is not a scientific or scholarly journal.) Apparently no one did anything for World Peace last year, because they gave it to Al Gore for combatting global warming, despite the fact his documentaries too are scientific horse hockey.

there is nothing natural about humans preforming a yearly genoside on entire species that we pump full of hormones and chemicals to change the color of there flesh, the amount of flesh on there body, and the amount of milk they produce.

Yearly genoside [sic] on entire species? You do realize they have regulations on overfishing and the EPA is highly protective of plots of dirt in Southern Cali, nevermind rainforests and the like. Plus cows and chickens are a controlled population now solely in existence for human farming. They literally serve no other purpose. All you do if you set all the cows free from human opression is cause more road accidents. All you do if you set the chickens free is increase the fox, coyote, and cat population.

Theres nothing natural about even going to the supermarket and buying food.

Good thing vegetarians don't do that too. They also don't chat on the internet because using man-made inventions to aid man is also completely unnatural.

If you want to go natural, eat organic foods.

Which you will then buy from an organic market, which I assume is exempted from the unnaturralness of the supermarket because it keeps vegans from being destroyed by malnutrition.

And killing isn't natural for humans, is something we have been classically conditioned to accept.

Native Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians, Middle-Easterners, and basically every surviving society known to man disagrees.


I'll see if I can illustrate this for you. There are 6 billion human beings on planet earth. If we were to remove 90% of them, we would be left with 600 million people. Such a loss would be nearly impossible to recover from unless a large portion of the 600 million were close enough together to rebuild a society.

If we were to wipe out 90% of edible aquatic life, they are not equipped with the intelligence to repopulate at a level that can be sustained. Predators would die off because of no prey, and the prey of the killed off creature would presumably grow in number. There is no possible way to insure a blanket 90% negative impact on every species in the world simultaneously.

Moreover, what are we comparing the 90% to, and how often does it occur? If we were to wipe out 90% of a population every 10 years, and we started with a population of 1 million, They would be culled down to 100,000 after 10 years and maybe 20,000 after 20 years, and 3,000 after 30 years. I've even assumed the remaining population doubles in 10 years. These numbers aren't sustainable, but the market effects would be obvious. After the first 10 years, markets would have incredible shortages, and the entire business model would dissappear.

The fact is Ambitions, you've used nothing but appeal to authority, while providing us no linkage to your assertions, and combined them with poor reasoning as to what is and is not natural.
 
kind of off topic but did you know that if humans stopped hunting altogether there would be population explosions of just about every animal we hunt that would be impossible for other natural predators to handle? hunters are also one of the largest animal rights/ protection groups in the world, we kill them but it is really for the good of the world and natural habitats. hunting also provides a valuable service to farmers who grow crops by keeping a majority of the seed eating wildlife off of their fields. even if you try to argue that hunting isn't natural, you can not argue that at this point it isn't necessary.
 
Deck Knight

When I read what you have to say, I feel like my brain starts to shrink.

If it's common knowledge, it is common only to you.

Like why don't you just say "I haven't done any research on the topic"

And the regulations you speak of arn't enforced. I'm not going to go into detail because you'll think I'm lying, cuz you don't do research your self.


Vespa

Yeah.......we kind of hunt species to extinction. So I see your point with like deer and shit, but what you said is totally fiction. Our seas are in critical condition, and with amount of CO 2 pouring into our air every day among other things, we could see a sever drop in land animals populations just like we have in marine life.

BTW, If the bee epidemic keeps on occurring at its current rate, we should die off 4-6years after they do.

Sumatran tiger
Pandas
Killer Whales
North Amer. Right Whale
Polar Bears
Penguins
Gorillas
Bald Eagle
Great White Sharks
Blue Whale
Sea Lion
Walrus
Linos
Whale Shark
Humpback Whale
Dugong
StingRay
Hippopotamus
Grizzly Bear
Homed Puffin
Wood Pecker
Leopard
Bison
Orangoutang
Sperm Whales

And shit loads of other species are endangered and hold a key roll in our ecosystems.
And the above list is a list of species who's population is not only endangered, but not on the rise.

Did you know that are Government (US) authorized the extinction of wolves in the 1800's so the West would become safer.
 
Vespa

Yeah.......we kind of hunt species to extinction. So I see your point with like deer and shit, but what you said is totally fiction. Our seas are in critical condition, and with amount of CO 2 pouring into our air every day among other things, we could see a sever drop in land animals populations just like we have in marine life.

BTW, If the bee epidemic keeps on occurring at its current rate, we should die off 4-6years after they do.

Sumatran tiger
Pandas
Killer Whales
North Amer. Right Whale
Polar Bears
Penguins
Gorillas
Bald Eagle
Great White Sharks
Blue Whale
Sea Lion
Walrus
Linos
Whale Shark
Humpback Whale
Dugong
StingRay
Hippopotamus
Grizzly Bear
Homed Puffin
Wood Pecker
Leopard
Bison
Orangoutang
Sperm Whales

And shit loads of other species are endangered and hold a key roll in our ecosystems.
And the above list is a list of species who's population is not only endangered, but not on the rise.

Did you know that are Government (US) authorized the extinction of wolves in the 1800's so the West would become safer.

for one lets deal in the now, not the 1800's, they didn't exactly have the good of the world in mind back then.

i was talking about animals that are legal to hunt. obviously hunting an endangered species isn't going to help the ecosystem at all. take migratory waterfowl for instance, specifically the snow goose population. its fucking enormous and we are hunting them right now. the government is planning on increasing the limit to 6 per day and the season into february to help the problem becaus they are absolutely destroying fields of winter crops.

also,writing off my information as false is pretentious at best. you seem to focus on the illegal aspects of hunting here and i am in no way advocating that. we cannot control the poachers across the world because there are far too many of them but comparing a poacher to a hunter is an insult.

as for the population of land animals dropping on its own is concerned, there is no evidence to back your claim up. the majority of legally huntable land dwelling creatures populations would explode before falling due to damage to the ecosystem (which would be caused by those explosions)
.
 
Deck Knight

When I read what you have to say, I feel like my brain starts to shrink.

When I read what you have read, seeing as you never back any of it up, the claims are outlandish, and they would also result in industry-killing shortages if they were true, I'd say your brain shrinkage is because you aren't getting enough protein in your diet, not because of what I've written on the internet.

Every couple years some idiot comes out with a new Global Doom Theory that falls apart using basic logic. If we had overfished 90% of aquatic population out of existence, there would be massive shortages of fish. Fresh fish cannot be preserved for more than a few weeks at best. Frozen fish do not have the quality desired by consumers and also do not last forever.

Culling 90% of the aquatic edible life on earth would destroy essentially every fish market on earth, likely destroy surface algae because of the lack of CO2 byproduct let out by fish to feed the algae, and in general would have caused the earth to die off very rapidly.

Ah, here's a good tip this is full of crock:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2006-11-02-overfishing-threat_x.htm

"It is a very clear trend, and it is accelerating," Worm said. The paper represents four years of work by an international team of researchers at various universities who analyzed ocean species diversity over the past 1,000 years.

Do tell me, what methods were they using to catalogue ocean biodivirsity in 1006 AD? I imagine it was very scientific and required meticulous use of fishing rods and reels. They also predict the 90% will be destroyed by 2048.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/10/24/1066631610205.html?from=storyrhs

Large fish have been depleted by about 90 per cent in the past half century and fishing grounds are being destroyed by large fleets who are delving deeper.

"By changing one part of the ecosystem, the whole food chain changes," said O'Dor.

The obvious challenge in conducting the census is the vast size of the oceans and complete darkness at lower levels kilometres below the surface - what scientists call the Dark Zone.

That's cool. What they're basically saying (in the back room) is "sure, we can't be completely sure 90% of large fish are destroyed because of the Dark Zone and overall ocean size, but we know it happened in the last 50 years and we're betting we could get more funding for our pet projects. Nobody seems to agree whether we have culled 90% by 2048 (the first link) or now (the second link is 2003,) but damn, it sounds alarming and damn, I bet it keeps our projects funded.

While I'm sure it's true that overfishing is a problem, this 90% is just a feel-good number for eco-nuts to quote, just like Al-Gore has repeatedly stated the earth will be destroyed due to global warming in 10 years, before he had to change his scam to the even more vacuous "global climate change."
 
I think that if someone chooses to be a vegetarian, then that is there call. As long as they don't try to force their beliefs on everyone else, life will go on.

I eat meat/animal products because it is a natural thing, but I am against animal cruelty (I'd rather pay for the expensive "free range" eggs then regular cheap ones)
 
but comparing a poacher to a hunter is an insult.

One kills animals no one cares about, one kills animals that a bit more people care about.

as for the population of land animals dropping on its own is concerned, there is no evidence to back your claim up. the majority of legally huntable land dwelling creatures populations would explode before falling due to damage to the ecosystem (which would be caused by those explosions)

If the majority of Scientits are right, Global Warming should put a dent in 50%ish of our animal population by 2040.

Why don't we all just, like, not be totally ass holes and not eat other living things.

I
'd say your brain shrinkage is because you aren't getting enough protein in your diet, not because of what I've written on the internet.

This could be the funnier then when that one kid said "Vegetarians only live longer because they are healthier"

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/05/14/coolsc.disappearingfish/

LOOOK I can post links to sites that are run by corporate fucks that are full of @%@! and have to obey the Animal Enterprise Terrorim Act too!!!
:D :D :D
 
One kills animals no one cares about, one kills animals that a bit more people care about.

if nobody cares about the animals than why are we having this discussion? you obviously have nothing to argue about if you couldn't care less about the animals you wont eat. in fact, why don't you eat them if you don't care about them? also, how can one be perceived as an asshole for eating animals if you don't care about them?
 
Meat isn't necessary but it still has stuff in it that you might not get out of being a vegetarian unless your also very keen about health, namely protein. Fish oil is really healthy, a great source of vitamin D. I'm pretty sure hunting is good for keeping certain animal populations balanced.
At the same time we're eating stuff like veal that you couldn't really make a case for its importance at all. Yet I eat it, and for the most part I care less, while hypocritically I would never slaughter baby cows myself =/
 
Your body doesn't digest Soy protein the same as it does protein from Animals. Think of your digestive system as a car engine that gets 40 mpg on soy protein and 25 mpg on meat protein.

I know if soy is your main source of protein, you only need 25 grams of soy protein a day based on a 2000 calorie (a day) diet. I'm not sure how much meat protein you would need to eat based on a 2000 calorie a day diet. Soy happens to be hight in vitamin D to, but there are like....welll....LOTS of other ways to get vitamin D. Not a very hard vitamin to get a lot of.

Basically because soy protein is less fatty, your body has a easier time digesting it and making the best out of it. It's kinda like high octane gas.

This is why some Olympic weight lifters are Vegan, and why Sumo wrestlers are Vegetarian.

Sumo guys eat like 40 eggs a day though ( O_O ) or some shit too though. I think its so they can keep there body weight up? Any one know more about that stuff than I?

if nobody cares about the animals than why are we having this discussion?

Vespa, I think you drastically misunderstood my post.
I was trying to say hunters kill animals that your run of the mill average people don't give a shit about. And that poachers kill animals that a select few care about. People don't really care about animals, when they see meat they think food not animal.

Obviously I care and respect all forms of life on this earth and believe that no one species has a right to dominate others. Hence my dietary choice.
My compassion for all walks of life is what got me to go vegetarian 5 years ago.
 
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

There you go. There's no good reason to not eat meat, avoid industrially grown meat if you have a moral qualm with animal cruelty. If you don't eat meat I hope you have a cupboard full of supplements because though it is true you can get all of the protein you need from combinations of nuts and beans (though inefficiently), you miss out on vital things like Iodine and vitamins.

If you go on a non meat diet and don't take supplements you will suffer brain damage, this is a sign from god that you should eat meat. As far as animals having feelings too, so what? I know this is true, my dog feels pain when I smack her for being a bitch but she's got a use other than being food (killing squirrels which I happen to find quite amusing) and frankly I doubt dog tastes good. My cats kill mice in the garage, saving me precious mouse trap money. Until a chicken proves that it has a use other than food I honestly don't give a damn about what it feels.
 
Kietharr,

Name calling has never impressed me as a valid form of argument. I suppose it shows the frustration of an industry with increasingly reduced scientific grounds on which to defend its products.

Do you have any source to back up your theories? Any doctors, universities what ever?

I've got (Some Of The More Famous Ones)
William Castelli,
Dean Ornish,
John Robbins,
The American Cancer Institute,
Caldwell B. Esselstyn,
Patricia Griffen
and other reputable names on my side saying a plant based diet is the best way to archive a healthy, physically fit life.

Type those names in the google search bar if you actually have a desire for knowledge.


Random Facts: The NCA sued Opra for saying "I'm never going to eat another hamburger again." on TV

US Pigs that have pneumonia at time of slaughter: 70%
Source: National Hog Farmer (Surprised they let that slip out into public)
 
I think people are getting a little too hot under the collar here. My main problem with this thread is that a proper debate topic has not been posted.

"People do not need to kill animals in order to survive, but must still exploit animals to do so."

This is a statement, not a question.

I'm going to post some of the questions that would naturally come about as a result of discussing this topic and answer them as such. I'm also going to ignore eggs, diary, honey and the various side arguments that could about as a result of acknowledging them.

Do people need to eat meat in order to live?
NO, Vegetarianism is a sustainable way of life, and has been for thousands of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vegetarianism
http://www.ivu.org/history/early/

Do people need to eat vegetables in order to live?
Yes, but it is very possible to live a very long time including fish, poultry and lean meat in your diet.
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story3.html
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

Does someone have the right to eat whatever they want?
YES

Is fellatio/cunnilingus considered eating meat?
Orwell is an idiot.

Is vegetarianism morally right or wrong?
It's neither, but CAN be very healthy.

Is eating meat morally right or wrong?
Guess again.

Is killing animals morally right or wrong?
Now we're getting somewhere. (READ: NEITHER!!!!)

Is making animals suffer UNNECESSARILY wrong?
Ladies and gentlemen, we have arrived at a proper topic.
 
someone on page 1 said:
Do vegetarians and vegans find meat eating wrong because of the violence associated with it?

That can be a motive, but doesn't have to be the case. Just because a lot of people aren't eating meat doesn't mean they all have the same reason.
 
See, here's how I look at it. Despite what ever else we might think ourselves to be, firstly and foremostly, we're animals. Animals eat other animals, so there's really nothing wrong about humans eating other animals. As far as factory farmed animals go, it's quite literally impossible for every individual to support a diet including meat without having this process. It's nasty sure, but that's life and the circle there of. If you can only eat animals, I applaud you for it and more power to you, but realize that if you're against farming animals, or consuming animals, you're dealing with one of the most fundamental aspects of biology. It cannot be stopped outside of individual choice.
 
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