OU Venomoth

s_aman

s_aman

Skeleton by TheManlyLadybug

Overview
########

Venomoth looks useless at first; poor base stats and weaknesses to common Fire- and Flying-type attacks, as well as Stealth Rock, are never good. However, Venomoth has access to the combination of Quiver Dance and Baton Pass, allowing it to pass boosts to one of its teammates and provide them with an opportunity to sweep. Though it faces competition in this niche from the likes of Gorebyss, Smeargle, and Scolipede, it sets itself apart with its ability Wonder Skin, which can potentially let Venomoth avoid Taunt, and access to Sleep Powder, which lets it set up with relative ease.


QuickPass
#########
Name: QuickPass
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute / Bug Buzz
ability: Wonder Skin
item: Focus Sash / Black Sludge
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

Moves
======

Quiver Dance is the only reason to use Venomoth ever, boosting Speed, Special Attack, and Special Defense. Sleep Powder provides valuable free turns, easing setup. Baton Pass allows Venomoth to pass the boosts it has earned to a teammate. Substitute eases prediction, protects Venomoth from status, and also prevents it from getting revenge killed by priority users. It is also very helpful for the recipient of the boosts acquired by Venomoth. Bug Buzz can be used to prevent Venomoth from getting being shut down by Taunt, and it hits fairly hard after some boosts.

Set Details
========

A Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs maximize Venomoth's, allowing it to tie with other base 90s. 248 HP EVs give it some decent bulk and minimize Stealth Rock damage. Wonder Skin stops annoying support moves like Thunder Wave and Taunt cold 50% of the time, which, although not to be relied upon, can certainly come in handy. Focus Sash guarantees that Venomoth will set up a Quiver Dance most of he time, while Black Sludge provides passive recovery that heals some of the damage taken from setting up Substitute. Tinted Lens is an option for Venomoth to deal solid damage by itself when passing the boosts would be detrimental to the recipient. However, it makes Venomoth more vulnerable to Taunt and status.


Usage Tips
==========

Bring Venomoth in on Pokemon that don't threaten it, such as Keldeo locked into Sacred Sword and Sylveon, and set up Quiver Dance on the switch. Then, if the new Pokemon is slower than +1 Venomoth, it can Quiver Dance again with its Focus Sash, use Sleep Powder, and then Baton Pass. If the Pokemon is faster, use Sleep Powder and then Baton Pass immediately. You should not get greedy unless the extra boosts are necessary: and Venomoth should Baton Pass immediately after it puts something to sleep so that the chances of a successful pass are as high as possible, particularly to a teammate that can threaten the Pokemon that's out easily. If the opponent sends in a Pokemon that may status Venomoth, it is better to use Substitute. Don't set up if your opponent has a phazer or a Pokemon that can check or counter Venomoth or its recipient.

Team Options
============

Pokemon that can effectively take advantage of the boosts acquired by Venomoth are the best teammates. Thundurus, Thundurus-T, Landorus, Keldeo, and Mega Gardevoir are good recipients. Maximum Speed Spooky Plate Aegislash is also a very good recipient, as Shadow Ball is an amazing cleaning move. King's Shield prevents it from being taken down by priority as well. Venomoth also appreciates Defog or Rapid Spin support in order to switch in without losing its Focus Sash. Latios is a good partner as after using Defog, it can provide an easy setup opportunity to Venomoth with Memento.


Other Options
##########

A Quiver Dance sweeping set with Sleep Powder, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and Psychic is an option, as Tinted Lens Venomoth achieves perfect neutral coverage with just two attacks. However, Venomoth is mostly outclassed by Volcarona, which has better bulk, power, and movepool. Sludge Bomb is an option if your team struggles against Fairies.


Checks And Counters
###############

**Priority**: Due to its frailty, Venomoth is prone to being taken out by priority moves, especially if it is down to its Focus Sash. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir in particular threaten with their STAB super effective priority attacks.

**Ditto**: Ditto copies Venomoth, allowing it to pass Quiver Dances to its own teammates as well. It can also copy the boosts passed by Venomoth to its teammates. However, this strategy can be blocked by Substitute. Most people probably won't prepare to counter their own Pokemon in case of Ditto, another reason why it is an effective check.

**Phazers**: Bulky phazers such as Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Heatran can all take Bug Buzz from Venomoth and get rid of any boosts it has accumulated, messing up the opponent's game plan. Mandibuzz in particular can both Taunt and Whirlwind Venomoth, while being immune to Sleep Powder thanks to Overcoat.

**Taunt Users**: Taunt from foes such as Sableye, Deoxys-S, Tornadus, and Thundurus has the potential to completely shut down Venomoth, though Wonder Skin can make it unreliable. Thundurus can also stop the recipient's sweep prematurely with its priority Thunder Wave.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is pretty good, I just have four comments to make.

In Team Options, you mention Latios as a good teammate, but it really isn't, because it uses Draco Meteor and will negate the boosts you pass. The rest of the attackers you mention are good, though.

In Usage Tips, you need to buff out how to get a boost with Venomoth. Come in for free on a Pokemon that doesn't threaten Venomoth (such as X, Y, and Z), and set up a Quiver Dance as they switch. Then, if the new Pokemon is slower than +1 Venomoth, use Quiver Dance again with your Focus Sash, use Sleep Powder, and then Baton Pass. If the Pokemon is faster, use Sleep Powder and then Baton Pass immediately. You should not get greedy unless you have to and Baton Pass immediately after you put something to sleep so that the chances of a successful pass are as high as possible. Remember to pass to a teammate that can come in on the Pokemon that's out easily and threaten it. You have to remove the surefire counters that you mention in C&C before you try to pass, or it won't work.

In Checks and Counters, you say Quagsire with Clefable, but almost every Quiver Dance receiver beats Quagsire due to its poor special bulk and lack of a method to boost it, unlike Clefable. So remove that.

The general tone of the analysis is too positive about Venomoth. This is a Pokemon that's only getting an OU analysis because it's BL, don't make it sound better than it is.

Other than that, good job.

Stamp.gif


QC 2/3
 
Honestly, Venomoth should never be taking advantage of the boosts itself, it should always be looking for an opportunity to pass the boosts to its teammates, usually after it puts something to sleep, which is why why Sub > Bug Buzz imo. The ability to shut down Pokemon such as Ferro and T-Wave Thundurus is immensely useful.
 
i agree with alexwolf. i never rly find myself using bug buzz when using this critter. i still think it's slashworthy though (bug buzz), just make it second.
 
Just a couple of things I noticed.

Wonder Skin is the better choice, though, as it gives it a 50% chance to completely ignore Taunt and all forms of status, which is certainly notable.
Click to expand...

This doesn't really seem like the kind of information that belongs in the Overview. Mentioning that it has two solid abilities is good, but information regarding the abilities and which one is better is more of a Set Details thing.

- Taunt bait
Click to expand...

Please remove this. I've always hated the phrase "Taunt bait" because it implies that Taunt is running rampant in OU and its very existence renders this set useless. Here's all the Pokemon in OU that commonly use Taunt:
Thundurus: Yeah, this shuts you down thanks to Prankster Taunt (if it hits).
Heatran: Honestly, you have a lot more to worry about from Roar and STAB Lava Plume than from Taunt.
Skarmory: Again, Whirlwind is a way bigger issue than Taunt is.
Talonflame: I'd be a lot more afraid of Brave Bird.
Deoxys-S: Already slams you with Psycho Boost, although non-offensive variants can shut you down with Taunt.
Gyarados: Who cares, you can outspeed and put it to sleep or Baton Pass out before it gets a chance to use Taunt.
Gliscor: Same as Gyarados, although you can't put it to sleep if the Toxic Orb has activated.
Gengar: See Gyarados.
Deoxys-D: Again, see Gyarados.
Terrakion: Pretty much Talonflame with Stone Edge > Brave Bird.
Mandibuzz: See Skarmory.
That's all the Pokemon on whom Taunt is used commonly enough to appear on the moveset statistics. Most of them have other moves that you should be much more afraid of or are outsped by a +1 Venomoth and either put to sleep or Baton Passed on. Also, keep in mind that most of these Pokemon use Taunt ~1/4 of the time or less, with the only ones that run it more commonly being Deoxys-S/D, Gengar, and Mandibuzz. In addition, Wonder Skin reduces Taunt's accuracy to just 50%, so Venomoth is actually one of the more Taunt resistant support Pokemon out there.

Mentioning Taunt in Checks and Counters is fine since it does ruin Venomoth if it hits, but don't mention "Taunt bait" in the Overview because that in itself isn't really a major point against it.

QuickPass
#########
Name: QuickPass
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Bug Buzz / Substitute
ability: Wonder Skin / Tinted Lens
item: Focus Sash
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Click to expand...

I agree with alexwolf that Substitute needs to be the first slash. The few times I've used Venomoth, I very rarely found an opportunity to use Bug Buzz. I was honestly too busy trying to put things to sleep and pass boosts rather than attempt to do a little bit of damage with an uninvested STAB move. Substitute is somewhat useful for its ability to scout moves and stop status (Wonder Skin is nice but not super reliable), and it's a nice thing to pass if you get the chance. I'd also personally prefer that Wonder Skin be the only ability slash. Reducing the accuracy of status moves (when you don't have a Substitute up) and Taunt from Thundurus and Deoxys-S is honestly more useful than giving a weak STAB better neutral coverage, especially seeing as how there are several 4x Bug resists in OU that still resist Tinted Lens Bug Buzz (i.e. Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame, Aegislash, Heatran, Skarmory, Togekiss, Mega Mawile, and Gengar).

Also, a couple of things I'd like to bring up for QC consideration. Perhaps the EV spread can be adjusted? I don't think there are any common base 90 Spe Pokemon in OU, so maybe it can be adjusted to outspeed Jolly Scarf Excadrill at +1? That would require 12 fewer EVs, which could be placed into Def. Probably won't matter that much anyway, but I kinda think those EVs would be better used to slightly bolster Venomoth's bulk rather than to tie with a speed tier that doesn't really exist.

In addition, perhaps Black Sludge should get a slash? Substitute is a lot easier to use when you've got passive recovery, and it's a bit "safer" in mid-game situations than Focus Sash since you don't have to worry about Stealth Rock and other passive damage. Venomoth also isn't that frail with max HP and a little Def investment. For example, it can survive Adamant Excadrill's Rock Slide from full health and can even take LO Latios's Draco Meteor after a Quiver Dance boost, so the Focus Sash won't always be necessary. Besides, making Substitute the primary slash for the fourth moveslot would be really awkward when Focus Sash is the sole item slash. Maybe keep Focus Sash as the first item, but I think Black Sludge deserves a slash.
 
Deletions
Additions / Corrections
Comments

Overview
########

Venomoth's has always been considered a weak Pokemon. Its base stats are poor, (add comma) and its typing gives common it weaknesses to common Fire- and Flying-type attacks as well as Stealth Rock. It is also weak to Stealth Rock. However, Venomoth has access to the combination of Quiver Dance and Baton Pass, allowing it to So, it can pass boosts to one of its teammates and provide them with an opportunity to sweep. Venomoth Though it faces competition in this niche from the likes of Gorebyss, Smeargle, and Scolipede, it sets itself apart with However, Venomoth has a chance of bypassing Taunt thanks to its ability Wonder Skin, which can potentially let Venomoth avoid Taunt, and has access to Sleep Powder, which lets it set up with relative ease.


QuickPass (I don't play OU, but isn't this set commonly called 'QuiverPass' ?)
#########
Name: QuickPass
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute / Bug Buzz
ability: Wonder Skin
item: Focus Sash / Black Sludge
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

Moves
======

Quiver Dance is the only reason to use Venomoth ever, (add comma) It boosting its Speed, Special Attack, and Special Defense and eventually one of its teammates'. Sleep Powder provides valuable free turns, easing setup. Baton Pass allows Venomoth to pass the boosts it has earned to a teammate. Substitute eases prediction, protects Venomoth from status, and also prevents Venomoth it from getting revenge killed by priority users. It is also very helpful for the recipient of the boosts acquired by Venomoth. Bug Buzz can be used to prevent it Venomoth from getting wreaked being shut down by Taunt, and it hits fairly hard after some boosts.

Set Details
========

A Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs maximize its Venomoth's Speed, (add comma) speed tying allowing it to tie with other base 90s. 248 HP EVs give Venomoth it some decent bulk and minimize Stealth Rock damage. Wonder Skin stops annoying support moves like Thunder Wave and Taunt cold 50% of the time, which, although not to be relied upon, can certainly come in handy. Focus Sash guarantees that Venomoth will set up a Quiver Dance most of the time, while Black Sludge provides passive recovery and heals some of the damage taken from setting up Substitute. Tinted Lens is an option in order for Venomoth to deal solid damage by itself when passing the boosts would be detrimental to the recipient. However, it makes Venomoth more vulnerable to Taunt and status.


Usage Tips
==========

Bring Venomoth in on Pokemon who that don't threaten it, such as Keldeo locked into Sacred Sword and Sylveon, (add comma) and set up Quiver Dance on the switch. Then, if the new Pokemon is slower than +1 Venomoth, it can Quiver Dance again with your its Focus Sash, use Sleep Powder, and then Baton Pass. If the Pokemon is faster, Venomoth should use Sleep Powder and then Baton Pass immediately. You should not get greedy unless you have to the extra boosts are necessary: and Venomoth should Baton Pass immediately after you it puts something to sleep so that the chances of a successful pass are as high as possible, particularly Pass to a teammate that can threaten the Pokemon that's out easily. If the opponent sends in a Pokemon that may status you Venomoth, it is better to use Substitute. Don't set up if your opponent has a phazer or a Pokemon that can check or counter Venomoth or its recipient.

(Remember, 'you' refers to the user, not the Pokemon. 'You' don't Quiver Dance, the Pokemon does)

Team Options
============

Pokemon who that can effectively take advantage of the boosts acquired by Venomoth are the its best teammates for Venomoth. Thundurus, Thundurus-T, Landorus, Keldeo, (add comma) and Mega Gardevoir are good recipients. Maximum Speed Spooky Plate Aegislash is also a very good recipient, as Shadow Ball is an amazing cleaning move. King's Shield prevents it from being taken down by priority as well. Venomoth also appreciates Defog or Rapid Spin support in order to switch in without losing its Focus Sash. Latios is a good partner as after using Defog, it can use memento to provide an easy setup opportunity to Venomoth with Memento.


Other Options
##########

A Quiver Dance sweeping set with Sleep Powder, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and Psychic is an option, as Tinted Lens With Tinted Lens as its ability, Venomoth achieves perfect neutral coverage with just two attacks. However, Venomoth is mostly outclassed by Volcarona, as Volcarona which has better bulk, power, and movepool, and generally does the role of sweeping better than Venomoth. Sludge Bomb is an option if your team struggles against Fairies.


Checks And Counters
###############

**Priority**: Due to its frailty, Venomoth is prone to being taken out by priority moves, especially if it is hanging on with its Focus Sash. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir in particular threaten with their STAB super effective priority.

**Ditto**: Ditto copies Venomoth, allowing it to pass Quiver Dances to its teammates as well. Another thing to note is that Most people probably won't prepare to counter their own Pokemon in case of Ditto, another reason why it is an effective check.

**Phazers**: Bulky phazers such as Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Heatran can all take Bug Buzz from Venomoth and get rid of any boosts it has accumulated, messing up the opponent's game plan. Mandibuzz in particular can both Taunt and Whirlwind Venomoth, while being immune to Sleep Powder because of Overcoat's new mechanics thanks to Overcoat.

**Taunt Users**: Taunt from foes such as Sableye, Deoxys-S, Tornadus, and Thundurus has the potential to completely shut down Venomoth, though Wonder Skin can make it unreliable Only trouble is, Wonder Skin blocks Taunt half the time. Thundurus can also stop the recipient's sweep prematurely with its priority Thunder Wave.

**Clefable**: Clefable does not care about the boosts thanks to Unaware, (remove comma) and can set up with Calm Mind, provided that something has already been sleep foddered Venomoth has already put something to sleep.

**Grass-types neutral to Bug Buzz**: Bulky Grass-types with a secondary typing that makes them neutral to Bug Buzz, (add comma) such as Chesnaught and Mega Venusaur, (add comma) may not seem like a good option at first, but look closer, and you'll see why they are effective at neutering Venomoth. They both aren't threatened by Venomoth; they are also immune to Sleep Powder, and each have a way of shutting it down, with Roar and Sleep Powder, respectively.

I know you asked for a C/P, but it's better if you make the changes manually: that's the best way to learn so that you can avoid making similar mistakes in the future :)

contrib_gp.png


GP 1 / 2
 
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Overview
########

Venomoth's Ba looks useless Stats are first; poor, and its typing gives Venomoth base stats and weaknesses to common Fire- and Flying-type attacks, as well as Stealth Rock, are never good. However, Venomoth has access to the combination of Quiver Dance and Baton Pass, allowing it to pass boosts to one of its teammates and provide them with an opportunity to sweep. Though it faces competition in this niche from the likes of Gorebyss, Smeargle, and Scolipede, it sets itself apart with its ability Wonder Skin, which can potentially let Venomoth avoid Taunt, and access to Sleep Powder, which lets it set up with relative ease.


QuickPass
#########
Name: QuickPass
move 1: Quiver Dance
move 2: Sleep Powder
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Substitute / Bug Buzz
ability: Wonder Skin
item: Focus Sash / Black Sludge
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

Moves
======

Quiver Dance is the only reason to use Venomoth ever, boosting Speed, Special Attack, and Special Defense. Sleep Powder provides valuable free turns, easing setup. Baton Pass allows Venomoth to pass the boosts it has earned to a teammate. Substitute eases prediction, protects Venomoth from status, and also prevents it from getting revenge killed by priority users. It is also very helpful for the recipient of the boosts acquired by Venomoth. Bug Buzz can be used to prevent Venomoth from getting being shut down by Taunt, and it hits fairly hard after some boosts.

Set Details
========

A Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs maximize Venomoth's, allowing it to tie with other base 90s. 248 HP EVs give it some decent bulk and minimize Stealth Rock damage. Wonder Skin stops annoying support moves like Thunder Wave and Taunt cold 50% of the time, which, although not to be relied upon, can certainly come in handy. Focus Sash guarantees that Venomoth will set up a Quiver Dance most of he time, while Black Sludge provides passive recovery that heals some of the damage taken from setting up Substitute. Tinted Lens is an option for Venomoth to deal solid damage by itself when passing the boosts would be detrimental to the recipient. However, it makes Venomoth more vulnerable to Taunt and status.


Usage Tips
==========

Bring Venomoth in on Pokemon that don't threaten it, such as Keldeo locked into Sacred Sword and Sylveon, and set up Quiver Dance on the switch. Then, if the new Pokemon is slower than +1 Venomoth, it can Quiver Dance again with its Focus Sash, use Sleep Powder, and then Baton Pass. If the Pokemon is faster, use Sleep Powder and then Baton Pass immediately. You should not get greedy unless the extra boosts are necessary: and Venomoth should Baton Pass immediately after it puts something to sleep so that the chances of a successful pass are as high as possible, particularly to a teammate that can threaten the Pokemon that's out easily. If the opponent sends in a Pokemon that may status Venomoth, it is better to use Substitute. Don't set up if your opponent has a phazer or a Pokemon that can check or counter Venomoth or its recipient.

Team Options
============

Pokemon that can effectively take advantage of the boosts acquired by Venomoth are the best teammates. Thundurus, Thundurus-T, Landorus, Keldeo, and Mega Gardevoir are good recipients. Maximum Speed Spooky Plate Aegislash is also a very good recipient, as Shadow Ball is an amazing cleaning move. King's Shield prevents it from being taken down by priority as well. Venomoth also appreciates Defog or Rapid Spin support in order to switch in without losing its Focus Sash. Latios is a good partner as after using Defog, it can provide an easy setup opportunity to Venomoth with Memento.


Other Options
##########

A Quiver Dance sweeping set with Sleep Powder, Bug Buzz, Quiver Dance, and Psychic is an option, as Tinted Lens Venomoth achieves perfect neutral coverage with just two attacks. However, Venomoth is mostly outclassed by Volcarona, which has better bulk, power, and movepool. Sludge Bomb is an option if your team struggles against Fairies.


Checks And Counters
###############

**Priority**: Due to its frailty, Venomoth is prone to being taken out by priority moves, especially if it is hanging on withdown to its Focus Sash. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir in particular threaten with their STAB super effective priority attacks.

**Ditto**: Ditto copies Venomoth, allowing it to pass Quiver Dances to its own teammates as well. Most people probably won't prepare to counter their own Pokemon in case of Ditto, another reason why it is an effective check. well if somebody does this, can't you net another qd and then pass off to a teammate, which will still have a +1 spe/spatk/spdef on the pokemon the ditto passed to? -- this is also blocked by sub

**Phazers**: Bulky phazers such as Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Heatran can all take Bug Buzz from Venomoth and get rid of any boosts it has accumulated, messing up the opponent's game plan. Mandibuzz in particular can both Taunt and Whirlwind Venomoth, while being immune to Sleep Powder thanks to Overcoat.

**Taunt Users**: Taunt from foes such as Sableye, Deoxys-S, Tornadus, and Thundurus has the potential to completely shut down Venomoth, though Wonder Skin can make it unreliable. Thundurus can also stop the recipient's sweep prematurely with its priority Thunder Wave.

**Clefable**: Clefable does not care about the boosts thanks to Unaware and can set up with Calm Mind, provided that Venomoth has already put something to sleep. this really depends on the recipients -- first of all unaware cm isn't generally a good set, just plain unaware -- and stuff like aegi, sludge wave lando, etc can smash through clef

**Grass-types neutral to Bug Buzz**: Bulky Grass-types with a secondary typing that makes them neutral to Bug Buzz, such as Chesnaught and Mega Venusaur aren't threatened by Venomoth; they are also immune to Sleep Powder, and each have a way of shutting it down, with Roar and Sleep Powder, respectively. see the thing here is that, both of these are smashed by the best recipients, no one runs roar on chesnaught and sleep powder can be blocked by sub, which is typically the better move choice
gp 2/2

caught a few things kinda missed in qc in the checks and counters, look at that. good job!
 
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