VGC Series 7 Metagame Discussion and Resources Thread (Viability Rankings Post #2)

[zee]

Crown Tundra is finally here! Landorus-T and the Tapus have (finally) returned to us for play in the new metagame and just in time for Player's Cup II. This thread will house both metagame discussion and important resources such as viability rankings and speed tiers.

Use this thread to discuss the evolving metagame however you'd like. Please be respectful and post intelligently within the thread, and don't flood.

Here are some questions for discussion to get everyone started.

1. How do you feel about the return of Hidden Ability Legends such as Defiant Tornadus and Inner Focus Entei?
2. Will Landorus-T dominate the metagame once again? Why (or why not)?
3. Do you think how players use the Dynamax Factor needs to change with the addition of so many high BST Pokemon?
4. What returning Pokemon does Dynamax make better than they were in previous generations?
5. Do you have a "Smart Money" on the Player's Cup II winning team/core/player?

 

[zee]

VIABILITY RANKING
​

With series 7 being around for a few weeks now, I'm opening the viability ranks discussion. As always, post with sense. We're purposefully starting off this VR incomplete. It will only comprise of S, A, B, and C ranks to begin with. You are free to nominate Pokemon to a D rank, as well as + and - ranks. These will be implemented in the first wave of shifts.

Ranking Criteria
This preliminary ranking is a collaborative effort between myself and multiple other established players. If a Pokemon was 50% approved to be tiered in a given voting slate, it ended up in the tier. For example, Metagross had 6/12 votes for S rank, so it will be placed in S. This approval number was then dropped by 1 for each lower tier, so 5 for A, 4 for B, and 3 for C

S Rank
Glastrier
Metagross
Tapu Fini

A Rank
Amoonguss
Cresselia
Dragapult
Dusclops
Incineroar
Kartana
Landorus-Therian
Moltres-Galar
Nihilego
Regieleki
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Stakataka
Thundurus
Tornadus
Tyranitar
Urshifu-S
Zapdos

B Rank
Celesteela
Cinderace
Charizard-Gmax
Clefairy
Dracovish
Entei
Ferrothorn
Gastrodon
Grimmsnarl
Heatran
Indeedee-F
Lapras-Gmax
Mamoswine
Pheromosa
Porygon2
Raichu
Regigigas
Regirock
Suicune
Torkoal
Venusaur-Gmax
Whimsicott

C Rank
Arcanine
Articuno-Galar
Blacephalon
Coalossal-Gmax
Comfey
Dragonite
Excadrill
Gothitelle
Guzzlord
Hatterene-Gmax
Ninetales-Alola
Marowak-Alola
Primarina
Regidrago
Salamence
Spectrier
Talonflame
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Terrakion
Togedemaru
Togekiss
Urshifu-R
Weezing
Zapdos-Galar

 

[zee]

ROLE COMPENDIUM​

Speed Control:
Max Airstream:

Tailwind:

Thunder Wave:

Icy Wind:

Bulldoze:

Trick Room:

Electroweb:

Positioning & Utility:
Fake Out:

Priority:

Parting Shot:

U-Turn:

Screens:

Prankster:

Intimidate:

Trapping: (Thunder Cage)

Redirection:
Follow Me:

Rage Powder:

Ally Switch:

Status:
Burn:

Sleep:

Paralysis: see: Thunder Wave

Offensive:
Physical Attackers:

Special Attackers:

Weather:
Rain Setters:

Rain Abusers:

Sun Setters:

Sun Abusers:

Sand Setters:

Sand Abusers:

Hail Setters:

Hail Abusers:

 

[zee]

quick speed tiers graphic with everything at 252 EVs, first column is boosting nature and second is neutral nature

 

[Yuichi]

steela gonna be top 10 mon yall heard it here first

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

Add these
Tailwind:
Bulldoze :
Icy Wind: :phermosa:
Thunder Wave:

Fake Out:
Prankster:

Ally Switch:

Rain Abusers:

 

[Bananers]

1. I feel like even though Tornadus will be gaining one of the best abilities in the game for offensive mons, it will still stick to a supportive role. Prankster tailwind is so strong and especially now with the speed mechanic changes, it's just too good to pass up. Inner focus Entei is nice though.

2. I have mixed opinions on Lando-T. While on one hand dynamax Lando-T sounds scary as all hell, buffing its speed with airstream, buffing its SpDef with max quake and buffing or nerfing other stats with its coverage. Now on the other hand, you have many counters for it. Competitive and Defiant pokemon are really common now with the new regional variants of the birds being released. Not to mention, Milo and Braviary have both been common this entire format, the former being able to smack it with Ice Beam. I don't know about lando yet, I'm gonna leave it at that.

3. I don't think dynamax will change much, the same hyper aggro spamming mons aren't going anywhere, except one. Lapras. As we all know, Gmax-Lapras as been a top threat ever since it could click resonance, but I think it will get heavily nerfed. First of all, it doesn't like the UB's coming back, especially Kartana. Other UB's that threaten it are Pheromosa, Buzzwole, and Celesteela, all of which I think will be good in this up coming series. Another thing that hurts it is the opportunity cost. Say you Gmax Lapras, a more defensive mon that doen't dish out that much damage, you will be losing the opportunity to Dmax another, more threatining mon. Kartana, Lando-T, Dragapult, Durant, all of these lose the chance to Dmax. So yeah, Lapras may get nerfed.

4. Lando-T obviously..... maybe. Physical Tapu Koko is an option with dmax, especially because it has Brave Bird, and we all know how dangerous Max Airstream is. Kartana loves dmax, sounds scary thinking about it. I personally think that offensive Celesteela is legit. With tailwind support it can be pretty fast and buff its speed further with StabStreams. Even though I said above that I thought Defiant Tornadus won't be used as much as Prankster Tornadus, it can still be a threat with Dmax. Dragonite could be decent with the Inner Focus buff, preventing intimidates which is huge for a mainly physical attacker. I know Wolfe is saying that Garchomp will be a threat, I don't see it. It's outclassed by Dragapult and Lando-T and is weak to Intimidate which is gonna be prevalent. One last mon I wanna talk about is Metagross. I think it can be really scary with a WP variant with the classic Bulldoze strat.

5. I'm not sure what player will do good, but I do have an idea for what mon is gonna be super popular. Lando-T, of course. But you know what mon becomes popular when there is intimidate everywhere? Milotic. Nothing much to say about Milo, you know what it does.

That's what I think so far, I am currently going through a move so I haven't been able to play the CT yet, but it looks fun!

 

[Scribls]

Might be worth adding hail abusers and setters in the interest of being complete. I know hail hasn't been super viable but we have the closest thing there has been with Arctozolt and Arctovish (55 base speed is bad but Jolly still outpaces Pheromosa and Adamant outruns Dragapult under hail) which paired with Ninetales-A as a setter have a different dimension thanks to Aurora Veil compared to other weather abuse.

Aside from that - remove from priority unless you think vacuum wave has a place and add to tailwind are a couple things I see based on recent developments.


1. How do you feel about the return of Hidden Ability Legends such as Defiant Tornadus and Inner Focus Entei? - Neither of these seem relevant but Defiant Thundurus and Static Zapdos seem pretty solid.
2. Will Landorus-T dominate the metagame once again? Why (or why not)? - Yes. Landorus benefits more than most pokemon from the dynamax mechanic and it was a dominant force in the metagame previously.
3. Do you think how players use the Dynamax Factor needs to change with the addition of so many high BST Pokemon? - I think how it is used will remain consistent (i.e. a few mons that are designated and then situational backups). The mons targeted for dynamaxing will shift heavily toward high BST pokemon because you get more value out of your dynamax in these cases.
4. What returning Pokemon does Dynamax make better than they were in previous generations? - I think an obvious answer is Metagross. Weakness Policy was a usable set previously and with dynamic speed ordering bulldoze WP becomes stronger which was the most common implementation but Brutal Swing is another form with wider distribution.
5. Do you have a "Smart Money" on the Player's Cup II winning team/core/player? - No idea, should be interesting to see how it shakes out.

 

[Im Texas Tough]

It might have been done before, but at least in like 7 total years of me playing Showdown, I've never seen it or used it: Tailwind followed by Trick Room (turns 2 and 3).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8vgc2021-1211761182

For me it was a really cool play on my part, something that proved crucial to win the match. I share this replay in hopes of raising a bit of discussion around the viability of this , given the new gen 8 speed mechanics.

 

[The Dragon Master]

Shouldn't regieleki be added to screens?

 

[Xatumiko]

what about ? I just won 15 ranked double matches straight with it on my team as a special sweeper. However I've only seen it used a handful of time, so either it's not going to be viable or people are just sleeping on it.

 

[Yuichi]

bop.

https://pokepast.es/fd5d89698851ebf9

heres a list of sets for 24 of the more usable(?) mons in the format currently that ive made for convenient cut and paste teambuilding

its not exhaustive by any means and most of the EVs are unoptimized and half of them are practically random numbers (except for the speed i EV'd most of them for some specific stuff in mind) bc well i made this for lazy cut and paste teambuilding so feel free to make a more optimized copy of this if you want. the sets are also mostly flexible so u can tweak the moves/items to your taste if you like feel free to do whatever u want with em ig

this isnt meant to restrict your teambuilding or anything but i feel that itll serve as a good jump off point for newer(or lazier) players looking to start building their own teams especially when some resources such as pikalytics can be quite vague or confusing when it comes to EV spreads and stuff

i think the 24 mons basically can cover up to 4-6 slots on a team for most of the archetypes such as HO BO semiroom sun sand and what not so thats cool ig

edit: some of the sets are kinda spicy so dont use them if you cant take the heat
edit2: fixed some abilities and natures

 

[The Dragon Master]

bop.

https://pokepast.es/6047f811be4e4063

heres a list of sets for 24 of the more usable(?) mons in the format currently that ive made for convenient cut and paste teambuilding

its not exhaustive by any means and most of the EVs are unoptimized and half of them are practically random numbers (except for the speed i EV'd most of them for some specific stuff in mind) bc well i made this for lazy cut and paste teambuilding so feel free to make a more optimized copy of this if you want. the sets are also mostly flexible so u can tweak the moves/items to your taste if you like feel free to do whatever u want with em ig

this isnt meant to restrict your teambuilding or anything but i feel that itll serve as a good jump off point for newer(or lazier) players looking to start building their own teams especially when some resources such as pikalytics can be quite vague or confusing when it comes to EV spreads and stuff

i think the 24 mons basically can cover up to 4-6 slots on a team for most of the archetypes such as HO BO semiroom sun sand and what not so thats cool ig

edit: some of the sets are kinda spicy so dont use them if you cant take the heat

May I ask, why is the Torkoal specs, as charcoal is probably better as it should only ever really use stab, and specs means it can become redundant after taking some dmg

 

[Yuichi]

May I ask, why is the Torkoal specs, as charcoal is probably better as it should only ever really use stab, and specs means it can become redundant after taking some dmg

as you have pointed out, tork is going to click its stabs most of the time and thus specs would be dealing greater damage. which is why depending on what is in front of you, you may consider clicking either heat wave or eruption. if you prefer charcoal u can also tweak it to a charcoal set as ive mentioned in the op bc all of these sets are made to my own preferences

 

[The Dragon Master]

as you have pointed out, tork is going to click its stabs most of the time and thus specs would be dealing greater damage. which is why depending on what is in front of you, you may consider clicking either heat wave or eruption. if you prefer charcoal u can also tweak it to a charcoal set as ive mentioned in the op bc all of these sets are made to my own preferences

Specs is more prediction reliant as If you click eruption when the opponent attacks you you've lost momentum. But I guess it's just personal preference.

 

[SoulBadguy0408]

bop.

https://pokepast.es/6047f811be4e4063

heres a list of sets for 24 of the more usable(?) mons in the format currently that ive made for convenient cut and paste teambuilding

its not exhaustive by any means and most of the EVs are unoptimized and half of them are practically random numbers (except for the speed i EV'd most of them for some specific stuff in mind) bc well i made this for lazy cut and paste teambuilding so feel free to make a more optimized copy of this if you want. the sets are also mostly flexible so u can tweak the moves/items to your taste if you like feel free to do whatever u want with em ig

this isnt meant to restrict your teambuilding or anything but i feel that itll serve as a good jump off point for newer(or lazier) players looking to start building their own teams especially when some resources such as pikalytics can be quite vague or confusing when it comes to EV spreads and stuff

i think the 24 mons basically can cover up to 4-6 slots on a team for most of the archetypes such as HO BO semiroom sun sand and what not so thats cool ig

edit: some of the sets are kinda spicy so dont use them if you cant take the heat

This is really cool and I appreciate it as I am new to this and not sure how to make my own sets sometimes, but what nature do you recommend on Cress? Is it suppose to be Bold instead of Serious? I am also assuming that Defiant was meant to be the ability on Thundurus since there is nothing to abuse with Prankster.

 

[Katy]

Role Compendium:

Speed Control:

1. Icy Wind:
2. Trick Room:
3. Electroweb:
4. Thunder Wave:

Trapping:

1. (Thunder Cage)

 

[The Dragon Master]

Now wouldn't it be better if we had seperate threads for role compendium, viability rankings, and metagame discussion?
Because this one will get cluttered and vgc has a pretty big playerbase on showdown.

 

[Sugarbear]

Gotta say I strongly disagree with Galarticuno in C Rank. It works great on physical offense teams as it provides both an Intimidate deterrent and Tailwind support. It can even counterset Trick Room. I would say B Rank is more fitting.

Speaking of B Rank, Regigigas is crap. You either have to run it with G-Weezing or with something that has Skill Swap / Worry Seed like Meowstic or Whimsicott. Problem with that is any opponent with 2 brain cells to rub together will see that strategy coming at team preview. If you run it with Weezing, they can easily double target Weezing and leave Regigigas helpless. If you run it with Whimsicott or Meowstic, then redirection shuts that down. Regigigas takes way too much support to be consistent, so I'd say C rank is more befitting.

Also why is Urshifu-S A Rank?

 

[Yuichi]

This is really cool and I appreciate it as I am new to this and not sure how to make my own sets sometimes, but what nature do you recommend on Cress? Is it suppose to be Bold instead of Serious? I am also assuming that Defiant was meant to be the ability on Thundurus since there is nothing to abuse with Prankster.

Yep some of the abilities and natures are a bit off in the first copy but ive fixed them (hopefully). LMK if theres anything else that feels really off. :)

 

[Yuichi]

Gotta say I strongly disagree with Galarticuno in C Rank. It works great on physical offense teams as it provides both an Intimidate deterrent and Tailwind support. It can even counterset Trick Room. I would say B Rank is more fitting.

Speaking of B Rank, Regigigas is crap. You either have to run it with G-Weezing or with something that has Skill Swap / Worry Seed like Meowstic or Whimsicott. Problem with that is any opponent with 2 brain cells to rub together will see that strategy coming at team preview. If you run it with Weezing, they can easily double target Weezing and leave Regigigas helpless. If you run it with Whimsicott or Meowstic, then redirection shuts that down. Regigigas takes way too much support to be consistent, so I'd say C rank is more befitting.

Also why is Urshifu-S A Rank?

Galarticuno kinda lost its niche after day 3 when people realised Thund I is in general superior in helping check Intim and breaking through teams. Shifu is really really good right now due to its dual stabs being able to hit majority of the format really hard (see: Metagross, Glastrier, Kart, Cress, Clops etc) . Its also able to ignore Protects with its ability and shrug off Intim statdrops for the most parts with Wicked Blow helping it do consistent damage against almost everything bar fairies and Moltres. Its also rather splashable and can fit into a variety of teamcomps, which is why its so good in the format rn. As for Regigigas the unfortunate reality is that it has seen some level of success in events and on mid-high ladder (1.7k~) which is probably why its placed in B tier rn (id assume). Granted in most of the games ive seen its useless by turn 3 but well.

 

[Darkmalice]

I’m surprised that Togekiss isn’t on the list. It’s definitely worse now, but it’s still a shock to see something go from S rank and as common as it was to off the list.
Also am fairly sure it’s Galarian weezing should be in C instead of Kanto Weezing

 

[Bananers]

Lapras-Gmax B->C
So I think that my prediction of Lapras not being as good was in fact true. I've tested a variety of sets and none have really worked. Lapras is just too passive compared to the other Dmax targets that have thrived in this meta. It also gets smacked pretty hard by a lot of the meta. Looking at the top 20 mons on pikalytics, 8 of them smack Lapras, and Lapras can't do much about it. It also faces competition as a slow, WP, Dmax ice type mon with Glastrier. I still think it has some merits, Aurora Veil is always nice, but I think it should drop.

Edit: I also agree with Darkmalice, as a G-Weezing user myself, there is almost no situations where you should use Weezing over G-Weezing. I can only see it if your team is really weak to steel, but its still kinda niche because K-Weezing still isn't doing anything to steels.

 

[ck49]

Given that Regigigas is completely reliant on Weezing (and not necessarily vis-versa), shouldn't they both be in the same tier?

 

[The Dragon Master]

Given that Regigigas is completely reliant on Weezing (and not necessarily vis-versa), shouldn't they both be in the same tier?

Regigigas should be in C rank regardless, as it's a horrible gimmick that 99% of the time is rendered useless by turn 3 as wheezing dosent have exceptional bulk and so folds to double targeting, and if your using skill swap then ... Click fake out or rage powder lol