***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

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imperfectluck

Banned deucer.
Yes, it's finally time to decide on the status of Deoxys-S, after months of testing by both Shoddybattle's ladder and the unbanning of Deoxys-S on Smogon. Deoxys-S has had even longer time for people to "get used" to than Wobbuffet, and now it's time to quell the controversy surrounding Deoxys-S by determining its tier.

Discussion is welcomed if you clearly know what you are able to post coherently and have experience with both Deoxys-S-free metagames and the Deoxys-S metagame.

Use bolded posts and clear reasoning to explain why you believe Deoxys-S should be in a certain tier and make your vote.
 
Deoxys-E's effect on the metagame as we know it...

The very presence of Deoxys-E in the metagame spells death for Choice Scarfers with only mediocre speed stats to begin with. What once was a metagame with Modest ScarfGars and many SpecsGars has now become a metagame filled with Timid ScarfGars. Deoxys-E, with its great speed stat, has the freedom to "revenge" just about any offensive threat in the game without needing to use a Choice Scarf, a freedom no other Pokemon enjoys. And with its superb type coverage in its standard array of attacks, it forces players to have some "bulky" Pokemon capable of standing up to Deoxys-E's attacks, since you cannot merely rely on resists to beat Deoxys-E who has the freedom to switch attacks while maintaining a huge speed stat without the need of an item or stat-up move. Because of this, Deoxys-E is the bane to offense and especially speedy offense teams that rely on clever switching and resistances to win rather than being able to take hits while dishing out powerful hits back.

Therefore, I move that Deoxys-E be moved to Uber.
 
Just the offensive set makes me feel as if Deoxys E is too powerful. With it's fantastic array of offensive attacks, you either have to carry certain Pokemon or else you'll be forced to switch around and hope that you don't get "outpredicted" (or in this case, it might as well be luck). It seems at this point you HAVE to have a Pokemon that can take a hit from it.

It is uber, I don't think I even have to bring up what it can do defensively, such as being an unpursuitable Starmie and a pokemon that can easily Cosmic Power Up, Set up spikes, Taunt, etc etc... I just don't feel as if this thing belongs in OU.
 
Just because a Pokemon has an effect doesn't make it uber. "Blissey is uber because you don't see many 4 Special Attack Pokemon that don't use Fighting moves.". "Sandstorm is uber because people don't use Flail / Reversal.". "Stealth Rock is uber because people stopped using Focus Sash.".

Deoxys-S hits hard, but no harder than Infernape. It has slightly bulkier stats, but it also lacks any useful resistances outside of Fighting.

I also don't know that you can blame Deoxys-S for the downfall of Choice Scarf. To be honest, I've always thought the 'strategy' was overrated. Deoxys-S's lack of use would also imply that it didn't have a major impact. As my proof: consider the amount of Skarmory that use Leftovers vs. Shed Shell. I would venture a guess that roughly 80% of Skarmory use Leftovers of Shed Shell, despite Magnezone (and Probopass) existing, simply because they are too rare for most people to consider them.

Not uber.
 
As much speed as Deoxys-E has to spell trouble for offensive teams, I vote that it should not be uber. When you are using a certain type of team, there is of course that one weakness. For example, a pure stall team might have a Kabutops weakness, a Gravity team will have a Garchomp weakness, a Trick Room team will have a the slower Choice attacker weakness. When we reach full offensive teams, that weakness is Deoxys-E. Deoxys-E can be taken down with a fully offensive team as well, making your predictions and moves sharper, which should only increase you skill, it's not a determinant to where you should whine that you are now fucked, because you aren't, despite the common misconception. However as I am voting not uber, I don't mind to see it go as I feel it doesn't affect the metagame that much personally, but my vote is what it is.
 
Yes but we're talking about one Pokemon making team combinations impossible, not one single set/item useless. No longer are 100% sweeper teams, which were very popular in early dp, viable.

Deoxys-E is uber
 
Stall teams are smashed to little pieces by Calm Mind Clefable.

As I said, I don't attribute the decline of 100% offense to Deoxys-S.
 
A bad stall team maybe.

also edit: it is true that d-e was introduced at a time where full offense was already starting to decline, but people were still able to use it effectively. for example during the slight decline jrrrr and ipl ran very successful teams that were nothing but offense. these teams would fare extremely poorly in a metagame that contains deoxys-e. d-e may not have been the leading factor for the decline of pure offense, but it sure as hell is the reason it is not even viable anymore.
 
As true as that may or may not be, Obi, Clefable does not remain a paramount threat, and this is not a Clefable discussion. Deoxys-E is still capable of doing a great deal of damage unlike any other Pokemon due to its speed allowing it to hit before any non-priority moves and Scarf Pokemon around Timid Gengar's speed.
 
I've found Deoxys-E's presence in the metagame largely underwhelming. It does not destroy the need for other scarfed pokemon, nor does it replace all revenge-killers. Choice Scarf is largely used for the element of surprise and work as such. Gengar, for example, is still a fine candidate for Choice Scarf. Sure it won't be outspeeding everything under the sun anymore, but it will still fulfill it's purpose by Thunderbolting that +2 Spe Gyarados, HP Ice-ing that ScarfChomp or Focus Blasting that Weavile.

Deoxys-E is just another option for team builders when selecting a revenge-killer BUT, with it's poor typing (both offensively and defensively) it is rarely chosen. Without a useful trait (such as Levitate or Sand Veil) or typing (no immunities, two resists, three weaknesses) it makes it even more difficult to switch in even though it is 'fairly' bulky.

And as offensively speaking, Deoxys-E can only really pick off pokemon 2x or 4x weak to one of its moves. Bulky Steels generally have their way with Doexys-E not to mention its crippling fear of Pursuit or Priority moves. It is evidenced from usage statistics that Deoxys-E isn't as threatening as first thought, being the 37th most used pokemon in May 08' (Weighted usage).

It is for these reasons, that I believe Deoxys-E should remain in OU.
 
Deoxys-S is the ultimate clean up sweeper. It can pretty much hit anything except a number of common steel types for SE damage. It is, as already stated, faster than most choice scarfers, making it have nothing to fear in that sense. Not all of us use stall teams Obi, that obviously have little trouble taking on Deo-S. Deoxys-S poses such a unique threat that it really creates an entire new dimension to consider while building a team. The only pokemon that kind of resembles how Deo-S plays is infernape.

Take my World Cup team for example. It could handle garchomp/weavile/salamence and pretty much every single DP threat you could throw at me, which led to its overall success in the tournament. Its biggest threat was infernape if starmie got pursuited or in general worn down AND my choice scarf heracross was dead. I was still able to battle myself around a few infernapes that I was confronted with, however.

Both of those methods of dealing with infernape are useless against deoxys-S. I used the team in Immerse Yourself, was confronted with Deoxys-S and simply had no chance, even though my team was incredibly prepared for every other threat the DP metagame could throw at me.

That may be a personal and small example, but that last sentence is reason enough for me to believe that Deoxys-S is uber.
 
Deoxys-S is not too much of a problem in OU. There have been so few people that have complained about it, that it seems like it's almost forgotten. The problem with it is that, while it is a good pokemon, and a serious threat, if it gets paralyzed at all, it becomes dead weight on its team.

For instance, a simple Thunder Wave makes its entire purpose on the team - a fast revenge-killer, or a cosmic power abuser, completely useless. Its defenses are okay, but unless they're boosted by Cosmic Power, it can't take hits from the hard-hitters of OU very well. When it's paralyzed, it's forced to take hits from the slower but powerful sweepers such as Metagross, effectively screwing it over. Most teams carry something that can paralyze, meaning that it has to be careful when switching in. Now, I do realize that this goes for a lot of fast frail sweepers, but unfortunately, Deoxys-S's offenses really do not make up for this like they do for other sweepers, since they're not all that deadly.

I don't really see why it's so bad that it's made Choice Scarfers harder to use. People have been complaining about that particular item a lot more than they have been complaining about DX-S. Also, they're not completely obsolete now, because it's not as if people make their entire team out of Choice Scarfers. The pokemon that aren't Choice Scarfers can most likely handle Deoxys-S just fine if they have decent defenses on both sides. Pokemon such as Cresselia do that job perfectly fine, since Shadow Ball isn't even all that good against her.

It doesn't really seem to me that offensive teams have that bad of a time with Deoxys-S. Since most offensive teams play to their resistances, they can just keep switching to make Deoxys-S die from LO recoil, of course, a Rapid Spinner is probably important on offensive teams anyway. If the Cosmic Wall is giving the offensive teams problems, a lot of set-up sweepers enjoy using Taunt, and when CP Deoxys-S rarely carries an attacking move, it's unless it switches.

I'm just speaking from my own experiences, so if they're a bit different than some other people's, then that's fine. Also there's the fact that I haven't really seen anyone complain about it until now in this thread, but I've always been convinced from day 1 of Deoxys-S's addition to OU, that it is not uber.
 
I'm very torn, Deoxys is one of the top revenge killers, one of the few Pokemon that can handle Pokemon with multiple Dragon Dances, one of the few Scarf Pokemon counters, and one of the best late game sweepers. On top of that it can't be revenge killed outside of something like Scarf Weavile, its quite a dangerous combination. I pose this question, has its true potential been realized? I venture to guess that no it hasn't, but I also venture to say that it is not uber, due no real evidence that its overpowering, overcentralizing, or anything along those lines, its a good counter to certain Pokemon and teams, just like Gliscor is a good counter to Heracross.
 
Thunder wave is a moot point if you are playing against someone who is using Deoxys properly - set up stealth rock, possibly spikes, in general wear the opponents team down, shuffle their team to identify all six pokemon. Do what is necessary to kill what deoxys cannot handle (ie bronzong). You are not bringing this pokemon out until you can pretty much severely rape the opposing team. Any other way of using it is just wasting its abilities.
 
Jackal said:
Thunder wave is a moot point if you are playing against someone who is using Deoxys properly - set up stealth rock, possibly spikes, in general wear the opponents team down, shuffle their team to identify all six pokemon. Do what is necessary to kill what deoxys cannot handle (ie bronzong). You are not bringing this pokemon out until you can pretty much severely rape the opposing team. Any other way of using it is just wasting its abilities.
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From what you said, it sounds like you can do this with any other lategame sweeper though...it's not as if the opponent is doing absolutely nothing while you just kill their pokemon, there's a chance that it won't work, and that Deoxys-S will have to take on those pokemon, whether it likes it or not. How can Deoxys-S be uber when it needs something else to beat its counters for it? Like you said, Deoxys-S is only going to come out when it can rape a team, but if Bronzong survives, what can DX-S do?

We have pokemon that can beat a lot of their supposed counters by changing one or two moves on their moveset, and they're not being debated at all. Eg. Infernape can beat Tentacruel by just sticking Earthquake or HP Ground on its moveset. Starmie gets destroyed by Grass Knot if Infernape chooses to put that on its moveset. However, how can Deoxys-S deal with its counters if it has to face them, because if I remember correctly, he doesn't have a huge amount of tricks up his sleeve for that.
 
"Cosmic Power+Taunt" but that's besides the point. You've made your points and voted, please don't possibly let this turn into illogical arguments.
 
If you play like that, Jackal, yes, Deoxys-S is dangerous, but so is every other offensive Pokemon. Moreoever, until you get all the Pokemon into sweeping range, you are essentially playing 5 vs. 6.

I've also used a stall team exactly once this year (in OU), so no, I'm not just talking from that perspective.
 
since the topic title does say "discussion" I will discuss some more I guess, even though we are distracting from the votes.

Sure other pokemon can do the "late game sweep" bit, but deoxys does it at a MUCH higher level than any other pokemon I can think of. I already said why, its speed, type coverage and decent attacking stats from both sides. The important thing is the uniqueness, the type of attacking stance it provides (in terms of coverage) is unlike any other sweeper in pokemon.

Starmie is my main infernape counter oftentimes, and almost all infernapes have grass knot too, but thats besides the point. I'm not saying deoxys will 100% win you the game, nothing can do that, but when I said "brozong" i very literally meant "bronzong". Steel-Psychic types are basically its counter, and the odd forretres. But then again, it DOES learn fire punch, so are you ever truly safe?

Deoxys biggest problem is that it can rarely take an opponent from 100% to 0%. Its strength lies in the fact that it can take almost any pokemon from 50% to 0%, while going first almost 100% of the time. That is something that is unique to Deoxys, and is a much bigger threat than a late game infernape or some other conventional clean up sweeper.
 
Jackal said:
Deoxys biggest problem is that it can rarely take an opponent from 100% to 0%. Its strength lies in the fact that it can take almost any pokemon from 50% to 0%, while going first almost 100% of the time. That is something that is unique to Deoxys, and is a much bigger threat than a late game infernape or some other conventional clean up sweeper.
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Ok, well I don't mean to detract from discussion of this thing, but can't Yanmega do that as well as long as Blissey's gone? All Yanmega needs to do is Protect and it's basically faster than everything in the game, and can take most things, besides Blissey and Snorlax from 50% to 0% in one shot with Bug Buzz/Air Slash/HP Ground with a Life Orb or Wise Glasses. Sorry, but I just don't really think it's unique to Deoxys-S, and thus, being a late-game cleaner shouldn't be the only reason for Deoxys-S to be banned from OU in my opinion. The Cosmic Power thing isn't even close to uber.

That's all I'm going to say for now though. Like MoP said, I've already voted and placed my reasoning for what I think, unless someone convinces me to think otherwise.
 
Deoxys-Speed Uber? Yes.

The Deoxys-Speed being uber argument isn't about individual pokemon becoming less viable, its about team combinations becoming essentially unusable. The statistics only show how much an individual pokemon is used, not how it is actually used in the context of the team. Pokemon is a team game, so individual stats just aren't as significant in every situation. The method that "definitely works to detect centralization" ignores this. Sure, the usages of most OU pokemon have been steady, but this is a sign of the individual pokemon being good enough to use on its own. As ipl has described, and I have experienced as well, Deoxys-Speed is killer to offensive teams. Deoxys-Speed doesn't hurt the usage of individual pokemon, it hurts certain combinations of those pokemon by preventing them from being effective together and that in turn centralizes the game by removing potential usable strategies.

Sweeper teams, which were immensely popular and effective at the start of D/P, are basically unusable now with the advent of Deoxys-Speed . Also, D-S has essentially eliminated the Choice Scarf from having an impact, as ipl said. The game has turned into "bulky offense", as people like myself and (especially) ipl predicted, because any other kind of strategy is rendered unusable by Deoxys-Speed.

Bologo said:
Deoxys-S is not too much of a problem in OU. There have been so few people that have complained about it, that it seems like it's almost forgotten. The problem with it is that, while it is a good pokemon, and a serious threat, if it gets paralyzed at all, it becomes dead weight on its team.
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If it's hit with a crippling status effect, yeah of course it isn't going to be as good.

Bologo said:
For instance, a simple Thunder Wave makes its entire purpose on the team - a fast revenge-killer, or a cosmic power abuser, completely useless. Its defenses are okay, but unless they're boosted by Cosmic Power, it can't take hits from the hard-hitters of OU very well. When it's paralyzed, it's forced to take hits from the slower but powerful sweepers such as Metagross, effectively screwing it over. Most teams carry something that can paralyze, meaning that it has to be careful when switching in. Now, I do realize that this goes for a lot of fast frail sweepers, but unfortunately, Deoxys-S's offenses really do not make up for this like they do for other sweepers, since they're not all that deadly.
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If it's hit with a crippling status effect, yeah of course it isn't going to be as good.

Bologo said:
It doesn't really seem to me that offensive teams have that bad of a time with Deoxys-S. Since most offensive teams play to their resistances, they can just keep switching to make Deoxys-S die from LO recoil, of course, a Rapid Spinner is probably important on offensive teams anyway. If the Cosmic Wall is giving the offensive teams problems, a lot of set-up sweepers enjoy using Taunt, and when CP Deoxys-S rarely carries an attacking move, it's unless it switches.
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Offensive teams play to resistances, you are right. But the last part of what you said means that I have to guess correctly 10 times in a row, and even then that is assuming that you are using a Life Orb. Rapid Spinning is not important to offensive teams because the general idea is to not let entry hazards get set up.

Deoxys-Speed KILLS offensive teams. I really can't believe you posted this. How can you expect a team that relies on resistances to beat something that hits almost everything for super effective damage?

Bologo said:
Ok, well I don't mean to detract from discussion of this thing, but can't Yanmega do that as well as long as Blissey's gone? All Yanmega needs to do is Protect and it's basically faster than everything in the game, and can take most things, besides Blissey and Snorlax from 50% to 0% in one shot with Bug Buzz/Air Slash/HP Ground with a Life Orb or Wise Glasses. Sorry, but I just don't really think it's unique to Deoxys-S, and thus, being a late-game cleaner shouldn't be the only reason for Deoxys-S to be banned from OU in my opinion. The Cosmic Power thing isn't even close to uber.
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Except doing that requires a moveslot for Protect, the inferior Speed Boost ability, is walled by any Flying-type, is 4x weak to stealth rock, and after one protect is still not faster than Choice Scarfers. Oh yeah, and it still can't touch Blissey and Snorlax without some serious team support. Being an effective late-game sweeper is not unique to D-S, but being the best sweeper is.

Train Man said:
And as offensively speaking, Deoxys-E can only really pick off pokemon 2x or 4x weak to one of its moves. Bulky Steels generally have their way with Doexys-E not to mention its crippling fear of Pursuit or Priority moves. It is evidenced from usage statistics that Deoxys-E isn't as threatening as first thought, being the 37th most used pokemon in May 08' (Weighted usage).
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There are quite a few pokemon with 4x and 2x weaknesses that Deoxys-Speed outspeeds and OHKOs 100% of the time. I would go through a list but this post is long enough already. I've already addressed why the usage statistics are meaningless at the top of this post.

Obi said:
Deoxys-S hits hard, but no harder than Infernape.
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Boltbeam+Superpower is much more effective than CC+Fire Move+Ice or Grass move, and Infernape does not have the advantage of being faster than all of its counters.

Aeroblacktyl said:
When you are using a certain type of team, there is of course that one weakness.
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Except that weaknesses to certain pokemon can be adapted to by simply switching a pokemon or a moveset around here or there. Deoxys-Speed requires you to change the entire mindset of your team or else you are getting swept without even touching it. Using resistances isn't enough anymore, you have to rely on sheer defensive stats to take its attacks. Offensive teams can not do this because pokemon with high attack and speed stats rarely have good defensive stats.
 
This really is a tough decision, at least tougher than the Wobbuffet decision. Now, I don't mind Deoxys-S in OU, nor would I miss it. In the end, an environment without Deoxys-S would have slightly more variance. This was seen when OU dropped from 49 previously nonuber pokemon to 45 previously nonuber pokemon.

Thus, I feel my final decision is that Deoxys-S is uber.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
Except that weaknesses to certain pokemon can be adapted to by simply switching a pokemon or a moveset around here or there. Deoxys-Speed requires you to change the entire mindset of your team or else you are getting swept without even touching it. Using resistances isn't enough anymore, you have to rely on sheer defensive stats to take its attacks. Offensive teams can not do this because pokemon with high attack and speed stats rarely have good defensive stats.
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No it can't. No team can cover everything. Every team has in fact a weakness. There are plenty of resistances you can switch around even on an offensive team. Is Heatran and Metagross suddenly not offensive anymore? Or the various amounts of Intimidators and priority attackers. That is a total inaccurate assessment. Not to mention, if a team has a weakness to something, it's not tweaking the team during the game to fix that weakness. What can a Deoxys even come in on an offensive team? YacheGarchomps? Multiple DD'd Gyarados? Heracrosses? Lucarios? Mamoswine? Zapdos? Heatran? Deoxys is in fact just another revenge killer with better speed. Sometimes your only way is to sacrifice and revenge kill, which is exactly an offensive team's main way of countering something. Not to mention, plenty of people use that whole 5 super offensive Pokemon with the one random thing that helps the team, whether it's Jirachi, Bronzong, Uxie, Zapdos or any other assortment of Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock or absorb sleep. You make it sound as if Deoxys sent out turn 1 is going to stop an entire offensive team. And if you claim it's "for late game" well that can go for nearly anything if it's "late game" and every Poke is under 50%. This still goes for every team, it's not paper Pokemon and will never be paper Pokemon. Play the game. If you lose, maybe that's not Deoxys' fault.

You can argue your point and stance, but don't go into my points to attempt to sway me from my own opinion and personal experience. We can go at this in private if you want if this starts to get out of hand.

Next.
 
darkie said:
This really is a tough decision, at least tougher than the Wobbuffet decision. Now, I don't mind Deoxys-S in OU, nor would I miss it. In the end, an environment without Deoxys-S would have slightly more variance. This was seen when OU dropped from 49 previously nonuber pokemon to 45 previously nonuber pokemon.

Thus, I feel my final decision is that Deoxys-S is uber.
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How can you say that the metagame would be more varied when the Pokemon that it would be "replacing" and what have you are still usable?

I vote Deoxys-S as not uber. Sure he can still switch attacks and is fast, but that doesn't make him replace every choice scarf Pokemon out there. His attack stats aren't all that great compared to most things you would stick a choice scarf on too.
 
jrrrrrrr said:
Deoxys-Speed KILLS offensive teams. I really can't believe you posted this. How can you expect a team that relies on resistances to beat something that hits almost everything for super effective damage?
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I guess I should reply, since you did ask a question, so I'll answer it with my experiences, but nothing else. However, I'm not exactly sure why you quoted two paragraphs just to say the exact same thing, I don't believe there's something wrong with me providing examples to back up my claims, so stop making it sound like there is. I'm not changing my opinion, and trying to make me look stupid when I posted something that obviously wasn't stupid and based off of my own experiences is not going to impress anyone, so just don't do that.

Ok, I do agree with you that it hits almost everything for super-effective damage. However, people have been able to deal with a Motor Drive MixVire quite easily, even when it gets the Motor Drive, and that basically hits everything for super-effective as well. If people can get past that pokemon, who has higher offenses, and is basically still faster than everything after a Motor Drive, then they can most likely deal with Deoxys-S too.

Also, Deoxys-S is just one pokemon. It can't deal with a whole offensive team by itself. The rest of DX-S's team has to whittle down the offensive team for him so that he can actually have a chance at sweeping. Do remember that most of the attacks on its moveset are unSTAB moves, so even when they're hitting super-effective, there's not a huge chance that it's going to have a guaranteed OHKO unless the opponent is really frail. Even a neutral STAB Psycho Boost hits harder than a SE unSTAB Ice Beam. Having an offensive team doesn't mean that you're automatically not allowed to have any defenses whatsoever. Remember, most offensive teams do include at least one defensive pokemon, such as Cresselia, and that there ARE offensive pokemon, like MoP said, that can be bulky and not super-slow as well, such as Heatran or Metagross. What Jackal said really is what DX-S has to do to sweep, for the reasons mentioned above.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
No it can't. No team can cover everything. Every team has in fact a weakness. There are plenty of resistances you can switch around even on an offensive team. Is Heatran and Metagross suddenly not offensive anymore? Or the various amounts of Intimidators and priority attackers. That is a total inaccurate assessment. Not to mention, if a team has a weakness to something, it's not tweaking the team during the game to fix that weakness. What can a Deoxys even come in on an offensive team? YacheGarchomps? Multiple DD'd Gyarados? Heracrosses? Lucarios? Mamoswine? Zapdos? Heatran? Deoxys is in fact just another revenge killer with better speed. Sometimes your only way is to sacrifice and revenge kill, which is exactly an offensive team's main way of countering something. Not to mention, plenty of people use that whole 5 super offensive Pokemon with the one random thing that helps the team, whether it's Jirachi, Bronzong, Uxie, Zapdos or any other assortment of Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock or absorb sleep. You make it sound as if Deoxys sent out turn 1 is going to stop an entire offensive team. And if you claim it's "for late game" well that can go for nearly anything if it's "late game" and every Poke is under 50%. This still goes for every team, it's not paper Pokemon and will never be paper Pokemon. Play the game. If you lose, maybe that's not Deoxys' fault.
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Yes, you can just use a supporting pokemon to switch into D-S. That means that you *have* to use a support pokemon, and it can't be weak to D-S' moves. I understand that having a support pokemon is very common, but to have 5 pokemon on a team and then think "wow, I really need Bronzong, Jirachi, Cresselia or Uxie so I don't get swept" is very limiting to team building. Yes, you can say "hey, you really need a pokemon to take on SpecsMence", but as you touched upon, you can rely on revenge killing to beat certain things. Revenge killing D-S is much more difficult and basically relies on either amazing guessing skills or slowly backing it into a corner until it sacrifices itself. It is a psychological adjustment that you have to make to accomodate for D-S that in turn has an impact on team building. Your argument is literally exactly the same as mine but we are reaching different conclusions. I'm not sure how I misrepresented your ideas (if I did, I apologize) when you are saying what I am saying.

I never said that D-S was uncounterable. I said that the only way to counter it is by sheer defensive numbers, which stifles team building as a whole. That is why I feel it is Uber.
 
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