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Walling physical attackers
- Thread starter Ryo
- Start date
At one time, one of my Shoddy teams had Mesprit to counter Gyara/Chomp (and Swampert XD). Psychic/Bolt/Ice Beam could potentially counter all three. (though Mesprit probably isn't going to withstand a CB/LO Megahorn from Cross, anytime soon) Togekiss could help against Heracross, though. (EDIT: Stone Edge notwithstanding, though XD)
Gliscor is the standard response against Heracross. Resists megahorn, close combat, immune to earthquake, neutral to stone edge. Roosts the damage off.
Cresselia + Gliscor is a pretty good combination. Cresselia handles most physical attackers well, and most of the ones she can't, Gliscor handles well. There are still plenty of pokemon that can get around this, (CBTar most troublingly, but also really hard hitting Normal or Flying pokemon like Staraptor). You can fix most of these problems without dedicated physical walls though. (ie with a defensive fighter and a steel type, so like RTMachamp and a Heatran)
Because there are too many pokemon to counter, it's important that your non physical wall pokemon can pull their weight defensivly via resistances. You obviously can't have a whole team of physical walls, so the way I see it, you have to choose physicals walls that cover the most potent threats that the rest of your team has no business facing ( which is why alot of people use Gliscor), and count on your team's resistances to take out the physical pokemon that do get by your walls (and there will pretty much always be a few), so if you used something like Bronzong as your main physical wall because you decided countering Garchomp was your major priority, you better also have something like Starmie on your team to beat Infernape and other physical attackers that get by Bronzong
Because there are too many pokemon to counter, it's important that your non physical wall pokemon can pull their weight defensivly via resistances. You obviously can't have a whole team of physical walls, so the way I see it, you have to choose physicals walls that cover the most potent threats that the rest of your team has no business facing ( which is why alot of people use Gliscor), and count on your team's resistances to take out the physical pokemon that do get by your walls (and there will pretty much always be a few), so if you used something like Bronzong as your main physical wall because you decided countering Garchomp was your major priority, you better also have something like Starmie on your team to beat Infernape and other physical attackers that get by Bronzong
Weezing is forgotten, but it seriously is an excellent counter to quite a few physical sweepers. Access to Will-o-Wisp and able to learn Fire Blast / Thunderbolt takes Weavile / Gyarados / Heracross out. You can try HP Ice for Dragons and such, but I don't think it's going to KO things like a maniac.
This is one of the problems I find with the DP metagame. There are so many pokemon that have only 1 or 2 truly solid and reliable counters. Things like heracross that are walled only by gliscor and weezing, things like mixape whose moves are only resisted by salamence and things like specsmence where only something like a blissey, empoleon, ss cradily can handle repeated draco meteor abuse.
It's basically like put these counters into your team or have to risk getting owned. You really can't cover every threat in the game so you just have to hope that you don't go up against a team that contains all the pokemon you fear.
Sometimes you have to use some more sketchy counters and prediction to get by. For example I don't want to put a salamence into all my teams to stop infernape, so I might use something like a blissey + gliscor combo where you predict and switch blissey into flamethrower/grass knot and gliscor into close combat and let it kill itself with life orb. Or I might have skarmory + a ghost for heracross instead of gliscor and switch skarm into megahorn/stone edge and the ghost into close combat. Of course, doing this means that one mis predict might mean one of those pokemon getting blasted to kingdom come so it's not without risk.
EDIT: To answer your question specifically, I agree that teams need more tanks these days as a purely offensive team will not survive for long. Therefore what you end up replacing for these walls are your sweepers. Generally, my team now contains only 2 sweepers who are usually choiced. They've been mainly physical lately too because if I do put in a special sweeper, it would have to be one that can break blissey on its own. I find there's nothing worse than sending in a special sweeper only to be walled by blissey and have to switch out. I have 2 full on tanks, 1 physical and 1 special. Something like skarmbliss, but the main thing is that they need good recovery moves. Then the last 2 slots are reserved for tanks that cover any additional weaknesses in my team. Ideally, they shouldn't be all out defensive pokemon like cresselia as I will need them to be able to dish out some damage as well. Something like a bulky gyara.
It's basically like put these counters into your team or have to risk getting owned. You really can't cover every threat in the game so you just have to hope that you don't go up against a team that contains all the pokemon you fear.
Sometimes you have to use some more sketchy counters and prediction to get by. For example I don't want to put a salamence into all my teams to stop infernape, so I might use something like a blissey + gliscor combo where you predict and switch blissey into flamethrower/grass knot and gliscor into close combat and let it kill itself with life orb. Or I might have skarmory + a ghost for heracross instead of gliscor and switch skarm into megahorn/stone edge and the ghost into close combat. Of course, doing this means that one mis predict might mean one of those pokemon getting blasted to kingdom come so it's not without risk.
EDIT: To answer your question specifically, I agree that teams need more tanks these days as a purely offensive team will not survive for long. Therefore what you end up replacing for these walls are your sweepers. Generally, my team now contains only 2 sweepers who are usually choiced. They've been mainly physical lately too because if I do put in a special sweeper, it would have to be one that can break blissey on its own. I find there's nothing worse than sending in a special sweeper only to be walled by blissey and have to switch out. I have 2 full on tanks, 1 physical and 1 special. Something like skarmbliss, but the main thing is that they need good recovery moves. Then the last 2 slots are reserved for tanks that cover any additional weaknesses in my team. Ideally, they shouldn't be all out defensive pokemon like cresselia as I will need them to be able to dish out some damage as well. Something like a bulky gyara.
With each new gen, there are more and more threats . . . I wonder, in another gen or 2, there could be way more threats than any combo of 6 pokemon can handle . . . I wonder if the game'll become about luck then.
Already, we are seeing that type of strain. :/
Already, we are seeing that type of strain. :/
This is why there was a thread about starting Draft tournaments a while back, to take some of the randomness out of the metagame.
Walling physical attackers... this topic always puts a smile to my face.
There's only one way to do that: predict, and switch to something resistant, or _maybe_ Cresselia if the hit is not supereffective.
To do that, yes, you'll generally need more than one Pokemon.
There's only one way to do that: predict, and switch to something resistant, or _maybe_ Cresselia if the hit is not supereffective.
To do that, yes, you'll generally need more than one Pokemon.
I agree with X-Act due to the number of hard-hitting physical attackers that are countered by a select few pokemon. I run an SS team so my two physical walls would have to be Cresselia(special as well I'm not fond of Blissey so I don't use it)and Jirachi they do well not the best ofcourse but they do get the job done with a little prediction
Honestly, the hardest part about D/P isn't necessarily walling stuff, it's the versatility of a lot of the big threats. I find myself in the most trouble when I expect something like SpecsMence and it DDs on the switch (and mind you, I don't use Blissey or anything). Most things carrying Life Orb instead of a Choice item can also ruin plans, especially if you think you're using the Sub you have to scout their move.
What pokemon of yours the big threats come in on makes more of a difference than ever now. You can put an end to a lot of things simply because they will assume a switch before they assume you're going to stay in to potentially sacrifice something.
What pokemon of yours the big threats come in on makes more of a difference than ever now. You can put an end to a lot of things simply because they will assume a switch before they assume you're going to stay in to potentially sacrifice something.
Tangrowth stops damn near everything except Mixape on the physical side.
It can take anything but a Megahorn from Cross and the Megahorn can be redirected to whatever Steel/secondary tank you have.
With sleep/seed, the only thing that really scares the 'Growth is mixers in general (which can talk to Cresselia for a while).
It can take anything but a Megahorn from Cross and the Megahorn can be redirected to whatever Steel/secondary tank you have.
With sleep/seed, the only thing that really scares the 'Growth is mixers in general (which can talk to Cresselia for a while).
Personally, I like the combination of Gliscor and Cresselia, with an auxiliary Rock resist to handle stuff like Tyranitar's Stone Edge. The problem with this is that Cresselia takes a good ~80% from Tyranitar's Choice Banded Pursuit when switching, and it can't Moonlight or Rest off the ~40% non-switching damage easily either. Basically, Tyranitar is the ultimate wall-breaker...
You don't have to actually use things with high stats to wall attackers....
You can offensively do very well with Garchomp, Tyranitar and Gyarados already. All three stops fire first of all. Gyarados can take fighting, ground, bug, steel, water. Tyranitar helps you with the normal, ghost, dark, flying, psychic. Garchomp then helps with rock, electric, poison. With three of the biggest offensive monsters you can play resistence with 13 types already, the 4 you do not resist, dragon, grass, ice can be helped with what, slap a Jirachi on there? It can also give you Wish for your other 3 Pokes and U-Turn around to annoy the opponent.
Who needs walls?
You can offensively do very well with Garchomp, Tyranitar and Gyarados already. All three stops fire first of all. Gyarados can take fighting, ground, bug, steel, water. Tyranitar helps you with the normal, ghost, dark, flying, psychic. Garchomp then helps with rock, electric, poison. With three of the biggest offensive monsters you can play resistence with 13 types already, the 4 you do not resist, dragon, grass, ice can be helped with what, slap a Jirachi on there? It can also give you Wish for your other 3 Pokes and U-Turn around to annoy the opponent.
Who needs walls?
I agree... people think too defensivly, the best defense is knowledge. Knowing what counters what and what to switch into what makes all the difference. Switching blissey into that ice beam is just giving them a free switch into a Sword/Dragon dancer and a free sword/dragon dance as you switch out. While if you switched starmie into that ice beam, you can now counter that threat straight away and not take much dmg in the process.
Just be smart and memorize the major movesets. Utilize the best defense of all.... prediction.
That type of thinking is flawed, though, because one pokemon does not just carry Fighting/Ground/Bug/Water type attacks. Sweepers will have movesets designed to be able to hit as many potential walls as possible. And if Gyara switches in on a Stone Edge (which many physical sweepers will have), it's going to be hurting afterwards. Prediction only works if your opponent doesn't predict your move first. It can work, but it relys on luck.
I hate to break it to ya Aero... but all three score 118+ in base Sp. Def tiers, and Gyarados is the weakest in physical def but it has intimidate... making Garchomp the weakest of those physically.
While they aren't general purpose walls, they have _HUGE_ stats in defenses. With a bit of EVs, all three of them can survive their respective 4x resist from a decent pokemon. Choice-band Weavile brick break doesn't OHKO 252 HP T-Tar 100% of the time for example.
I'd classify them as bulky to say the least, maybe as partial walls.
And what if I send something that uses fighting + ice + electric on the same set? Which is not that uncommon. It's great that they resist 13 types individually but a threat isn't gonna just hit you with one type that you can send something in to wall. Something like electivire is a perfect example of a pokemon that would destroy all 3 of those pokemon and even jirachi if you include that to cover the other 3 types.
You need walls and you need lots of them. Just don't fill your team with things like blissey, skarmory and cresselia because then you got no offense.
I was using an example of how offensive Pokemon can be used to 'wall' things based on resistence and not stats, so everyone's acting a little too defensive imo.
Remember, just because it looks good on paper, doesn't mean it's good in battle. Just because it looks bad on paper, doesn't mean it's bad in battle.
Dragontamer, I find it semi-ironic you call Gyarados the weakest of the set, seeing as how one 6-0'd your team earlier today.
Also, a Poke with Fighting/Ice/Electric (example: Infernape/Magmortar) will hit any other team full of walls hard. Wouldn't that same Poke hit a team of like: Salamence Hippowdon Blissey Skarmory Gyarados Jirachi (example team) just as hard, if not harder?
Remember, just because it looks good on paper, doesn't mean it's good in battle. Just because it looks bad on paper, doesn't mean it's bad in battle.
Dragontamer, I find it semi-ironic you call Gyarados the weakest of the set, seeing as how one 6-0'd your team earlier today.
Also, a Poke with Fighting/Ice/Electric (example: Infernape/Magmortar) will hit any other team full of walls hard. Wouldn't that same Poke hit a team of like: Salamence Hippowdon Blissey Skarmory Gyarados Jirachi (example team) just as hard, if not harder?