Water-types: There are actually more than just the Shell Smashers

Hello everyone!

Take a wild guess as to why I chose to create thread on Water-types.

Anyways, while Pokemon like Gorebyss and Huntail might be the most controversial Water-types out there, you can never forget about all the other ones in the type with the most amount of Pokemon in the game in the largest tier.

Obviously, the descriptions are not completely done, but the basic ideas are there.

The obvious ones
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Gorebyss may have been unanimously declared Not Broken in the last suspect test, but that in no way makes her any less of a top-tier threat. Gorebyss undoubtedly shaped the metagame to a point where it actually might be somewhat difficult to set up a Shell Smash, but if it does... Do you have a Scarfer over base 85, Absol, Lapras, or Jynx? No? You're doomed.

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Huntail isn't nearly as common or as effective as Gorebyss, but that doesn't mean it should never be considered over the feminine counterpart. Huntail is a much greater mixed sweeper than Gorebyss, and can actually become harder to stop after a Shell Smash, as its great mixed attacking stats allow it to muscle past many pokes that would otherwise wall anything it can do.

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Carracosta may be the lesser of the three Smashers, and plays more like mixed Huntail than Gorebyss. Due to Carracosta's STAB Stone Edge, it gains the ability to completely demolish Pokemon who could counter Gorebyss like Jynx without a problem as its primary STAB move.

The less obvious one
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Due to the existence of DeepSeaTooth and DeepSeaScale, Clamperl can either have monstrously high SpA or SpD (respectively) that it can abuse to either hit even harder than Gorebyss can or take many more hits from special attackers, allowing Clamperl to get off more attacks

The other common offensive ones
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Great offensive typing, Swords Dance, a great coverage attack in Megahorn, awesome priority in Aqua Jet, and decent defenses, which is of course backed by very good offensive stats, makes Samurott the most dangerous Swords Dancer in the tier, and can easily dismantle a weakened team.
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Its TropiOUs' secret lover, and its stats are deceptive of its actual success. Once put in Rain, Swanna is able to spam STAB Hurricane and STAB Surf, an unresisted combination in NU. Swanna's Speed is also very high for the tier, being able to outspeed common pokes like non-Scarf Jynx and demolish it with Hurricane before it has a chance to do anything. Don't let its seemingly low offensive stats fool you.

The bulky bros
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Alomomola's gargantuan HP stat, coupled with its good Def stat, makes it not only the best Wish passer in the tier, but a reliable counter to many of NU's top physical threats, like Swellow and Sawk, but unfortunately can't use Scald due to its absolutely pitiful 40 base SpA.

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Another bulky Water-type with giant HP stats? Lapras can work wonders as a full-on special tank, a mixed tank, or even a physical attack. However you look at it, Lapras is one of the best counters to Gorebyss, being immune to Surf, 4x resisting Ice Beam, and being able to take HP Grass and retaliate.

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Heeeeeerp. Now that that's out of the way, Quagsire is another amazing bulky Water in NU, being able to easily counter almost any and all physical threat due to Unaware, and can easily spam Recover while the opponent is slowly whittled down by Toxic or Burn. Sure, the 4x weakness to Grass hurts, but that fact can't deter this little fish... thing!
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And then, out of nowhere, Seadra. What makes this thing so useful? Eviolite, Eviolite, and more Eviolite. It may miss out on Leftovers, but its as physically defensive as the likes of Alomomola, and should not be sold short, especially when it has a chance to survive a +2 Leaf Blade from Jolly Leafeon. Its 95 base SpA means that its Scalds and Ice Beams will actually leave a dent in the opponent outside of burn. What's more? It has access to Disable.

The Rapid Spinners
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If you've played NU for more than 5 minutes, you should be more than aware that the selection of Rapid Spinners, quite frankly, sucks. Regardless, Wartortle can still reliably spin away entry hazards. Unfortunately, Wartortle can easily be turned into set-up fodder with incredibly weak Scalds being its only method of attack.

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Staryu is admittedly not as good as Wartorle, but its higher Speed and access to reliable recovery do give it a bit of an upper hand.

The other guys
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Floatzel's stats are quite deceptive. It does have blistering Speed (its the fastest Water-type in NU, and tied for fastest in the game bar Arceus) and higher Attack then Samurott, but it simply lacks the punch Samurott has, as its paper bulk gives it no time to set up, and it doesn't even have access to Swords Dance. It does have access to Switcheroo, which can easily cripple something like Alomomola.
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Boom. Head shot Smash. But seriously, even off of 90 base Attack, a Choice Banded STAB Head Smash will decimate almost anything in its path. Relicanth also has great defense, making him a great check to the birds.
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If you're running a Rain team, Golduck can spam Life Orb/Choiced Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, and, if you manage to actually hit with Hydro Pump, it can actually do a lot of damage to an unprepared teams.

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Base 130 Attack? Check. Really good Defense to go along with it? Check. Almost no Special Bulk? Check. Movepool that isn't impressive at all? Check. Has to compete with Samurott? Double check.

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FUCK YEAH SEAKING!!!
... There's not much else to say. Lightningrod's cool I guess, but Seaking still just plain sucks.

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It's the largest Pokemon in the entire game, and the most notable thing it does is have inappropriate relations with Skitty. It can use Choice Scarf Water Spout, but its still pretty slow... and it can't do anything else.

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Simipour is actually not that awful. It can set up Nasty Plots and proceed to fire off powerful Hydro Pumps, but, unfortunately, Gorebyss does this much better with Shell Smash.

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While at first looking absolutely harmless, Choice Band, dual-STAB boosted Waterfalls off of 92 base Atk hurt. Unfortunately, it can't break through any of the walls that plague others like it like Samurott or Huntail, and is an inferior option.

THE GOD OF EVERYTHING!
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This deity needs no introduction. When you see your opponent has one, might as well just forfeit now. It will mercilessly kill you and your family. In your sleep. After it burns your house down. After eating everything you love.
 
Haha I get it cause you're called waterwarrior

But in all seriousness, could Phione be a decent Rain Support 'mon? It has HydraRest and U-Turn. It's notable, at least.
 
You're adding Corsola before Floatzel? For shame.

One thing people often forget about Samurott is that it also has really good Sp.Atk. Not enough to keep it from being outclassed by Gorebyss, but certainly enough to give it a strong Mixed Set, especially with Megahorn up its sword-sleeves.
 
It really sucks that Gorebyss is NU since otherwise Simipour would be an awesome pokemon, but as it is he has literally nothing to distinguish him from Gorebyss or Huntail =/

Relicanth is super underrated IMO, being walled by grass sucks but his defenses make him an awesome bird check and STAB CB HEAD SMASH just puts a dent in everything (except maybe ground types but who switches golem into relicanth????? not I). Water / Rock typing is just too good to ignore. He can even use a RP set but at this point you're just using a bad Carracosta- who is ALSO really underrated. Aqua jet matters man.

Oh, and Wartortle has got to be one of the worst Pokemon in existence. Okay, you can spin (as long as your opponent doesn't have a ghost since he can't touch ANY of them), but he just begs you to set up on him. Anything with substitute, anything that doesn't mind a burn, some stuff that does even, he's just so terrible offensively.
 
Yea, Wartortle is the worst spinner in the tier. It gets set up on by half the tier -___-

not to mention it's vulnerable to Toxic Spikes :(

Cryogonal is by far the best spinner, but that's irrelevant.

I've recently been using Seismitoad as a Swift Swim sweeper, and it's been working wonders! THe only problem it has is Altaria, since HP Ice is so weak and sux, so I always use Sludge Wave instead, but otherwise, it can pretty much destroy the entire tier; Jynx is even 2HKOed by Earth Power :o
 
Wartortle actually gets Seismic Toss from Gen III- it's probably his best offensive option unless you face what, Golem. That still leaves you stopped by Ghost-types, but uh, I guess you can use Foresight if you wanted.

Simipour has two minor things over Gorebyss- Grass Knot and Taunt. The former though is near useless since just about all the Water-types are pretty light (though you get decent hits on Lapras).
 
Kingler has to compete with Samurott? Please. Kingler has better physical bulk, it's faster, has agility, and 30 points extra attack. So you lose aqua jet meaning you lose to faster pokemon. Except, you don't, cause you also have agility. And you don't lose to any physical wall (tangela -___-) since you smash their face in with crabhammer.

Also lapras is pretty cool since it gets thunderbolt and water absorb so it's pretty much the ultimate water type counter.

Swanna is a beast since it has really good 2 move coverage with and also can run brave bird for things like cryogonal plus it has roost. and dat speed >____>
 
One thing people often forget about Samurott is that it also has really good Sp.Atk. Not enough to keep it from being outclassed by Gorebyss, but certainly enough to give it a strong Mixed Set, especially with Megahorn up its sword-sleeves.

I do wonder, what's the point of a mixed set aside from priority in Aqua Jet? Unless you're striving for a physically inclined mixed set (with perhaps Hydro Pump for Quagsire?)... well, let's start with this. I was looking at a specially offensive Samurott so it can thrash the normal physical walls. Ice Beam mauls Tangela, Hydro Pump obliterates Weezing, and Grass Knot makes short work of Alomomola (and obviously Quagsire too). Okay, but it needs hefty investment to OHKO most of those. Now, what physical moves are you going to run with that? Or, more specifically, why would you run any physical moves at all? Waterfall does significantly less damage than Hydro Pump, even to a 252/252+ Lickilicky. Megahorn wrecks Grass-types, but... oh wait, they're all predominantly physically defensive and Ice Beam destroys them. Aqua Jet is the only real reason why you'd want to run a physical set, and with limited investment (Samurott has to run at least some Speed or it'll get wrecked by things like fast Exeggutors) it's really pathetically weak - like, it doesn't KO Swellow after rocks iirc. That's bad. :/

On the contrary, if you were to use a special coverage move on Samurott... what are you going to use? What does it hit? Maybe Grass Knot for Alomomola, but um it's not breaking through Alomomola any time soon without significant investment. What are you going to replace? You're either giving up your primary STAB move (Waterfall), your priority that happens to be a huge advantage (Aqua Jet), or your excellent coverage move (Megahorn). Yeah, no. I'd stick to being completely special or completely physical with Samurott; there is no real reason I can fathom to be mixed. :(
 
I was thiking specially-inclined, yes. And Megahorn nails Mesprit harder, which is fairly significant in itself, as well as Jynx, who's a lightweight and laughs at Surf and Ice Beam.

Specially-inclined Samurott is beaten in sheer power by Gorebyss and Simipour, who can both boost. Its edge over them is basically Megahorn, which doesn't even need that many EVs because of its sheer power and Samurott's decent 100 Atk.
 
I was thiking specially-inclined, yes. And Megahorn nails Mesprit harder, which is fairly significant in itself, as well as Jynx, who's a lightweight and laughs at Surf and Ice Beam.

Specially-inclined Samurott is beaten in sheer power by Gorebyss and Simipour, who can both boost. Its edge over them is basically Megahorn, which doesn't even need that many EVs because of its sheer power and Samurott's decent 100 Atk.

Mmmm, yeah. It does, however, require significant investment to KO 252 HP Mesprit after SR with Megahorn (and a very high damage roll; a neutral natured, 252 Attack Samurott with LO is only managing 74.72% - 88.46%), whereas a 252 SpA Mesprit has a decent shot at OHKOing with Thunderbolt after SR and one round of LO recoil (and will outspeed anyway, with that much Attack investment). I do understand your point, though.

You can't underestimate Samurott's surprise factor, either. Yes, Gorebyss and Simipour outclass him as purely special attackers thanks to Shell Smash and higher natural Speed/Nasty Plot, respectively. However, special Samurott is best used almost as a lure for Pokemon who are beaten primarily by those counters mentioned (Quagsire, Weezing, etc; Absol is a good example). What astounds me is that even though it's relegated to a role to simply lure and defeat counters to other Pokemon, it still manages to hold its own even when the opponent knows it is specially inclined, unlike a lot of lures.
 
Both Octillery and Wailord are amazing in Trick Room.
They're both exceptionally slow and Wailord has a powerful Water Spout while Octillery possesses amazing coverage.
 
Armaldo is one of the best utility mons in this tier. Great physical bulk, awesome Bug STAB, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, SR and Swift Swim is just icing on the cake. Makes a great spinner for rain teams, like a slower (not that it matters much in the rain) stronger Kabutops. He avoids spin blockers by just powering through them with SE, since his attack is 287 with no investment and a neutral nature. I'll take him over Cryogonal any day.
 
Armaldo is one of the best utility mons in this tier. Great physical bulk, awesome Bug STAB, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, SR and Swift Swim is just icing on the cake. Makes a great spinner for rain teams, like a slower (not that it matters much in the rain) stronger Kabutops. He avoids spin blockers by just powering through them with SE, since his attack is 287 with no investment and a neutral nature. I'll take him over Cryogonal any day.

A bit OT, but armaldo isn't a water type, and he can't get SR with SS.

Basculin looks like he could be interesting to try out. 160 BP waterfall is going to do a big number to pretty much everything.
 
Basculin could be pretty nifty. Adaptability STAB + Choice Band + Rain seems like a potent combination. Of course, water absorbers could ruin your fun but life orb could be another option as well.
 
Lumineon has two good abilities, but it's really not worth it with it's awful stats.

Storm Drain is great, just not on Lumineon. And Swift Swim is just useless, as it already has low Speed, and it's offensive stats are not even that great. Doubt it can pull of a Toxic or a supporting move in time.

If anyone can make a killer Lumineon set, that'd be pretty sick. But for now, I wouldn't count my hopes up. I keep forgetting it's even a Pokemon.
 
Kingler has to compete with Samurott? Please. Kingler has better physical bulk, it's faster, has agility, and 30 points extra attack. So you lose aqua jet meaning you lose to faster pokemon. Except, you don't, cause you also have agility. And you don't lose to any physical wall (tangela -___-) since you smash their face in with crabhammer.

Also lapras is pretty cool since it gets thunderbolt and water absorb so it's pretty much the ultimate water type counter.

Swanna is a beast since it has really good 2 move coverage with and also can run brave bird for things like cryogonal plus it has roost. and dat speed >____>

Kingler has to Double Dance to overcome Samuwott, and if you're letting Kingler manage to pull of Double Dance then you're doing it wrong.

Samuwott only has to Swords Dance, and then he can rely on Aqua Jet for fast foes.

Not to mention why use Kingler when Huntail basically does the same thing with Shell Smash?
 
Kingler has to Double Dance to overcome Samuwott, and if you're letting Kingler manage to pull of Double Dance then you're doing it wrong.

Samuwott only has to Swords Dance, and then he can rely on Aqua Jet for fast foes.

Not to mention why use Kingler when Huntail basically does the same thing with Shell Smash?

Kingler has much better Attack and better speed before setup, meaning he can force out more things. His coverage isn't too different either with x-scissor instead of crunch which both get the hit on psychics. He will never muscle past Tangela with X-scissor, but he can always 1hko physically defensive Regirock with Crabhammer and still get the 1hkos on the bulky Psychics like Mesprit and that weird defensive eggy. As a bonus, adamant max speed means it's faster than +1 100s after agility, making it literally unrevengeable outside of timid scarf electabuzz (and even that can't beat it if it's Jolly). Boosted Sucker Punch is basically the only priority strong enough to stop it, and that's only after kingler has lost about 1/3rd of its health.
 
Both Octillery and Wailord are amazing in Trick Room.
They're both exceptionally slow and Wailord has a powerful Water Spout while Octillery possesses amazing coverage.

Octillery gets Water Spout by breeding so there's no reason to waste your time with non-scarf Wailord (scarfed variants aren't even that great because they can't even outspeed anything faster that a max speed base 115 poke)
 
Common
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Its TropiOUs' secret lover, and its stats are deceptive of its actual success. Once put in Rain, Swanna is able to spam STAB Hurricane and STAB Surf, an unresisted combination in NU. Swanna's Speed is also very high for the tier, being able to outspeed common pokes like non-Scarf Jynx and demolish it with Hurricane before it has a chance to do anything. Don't let its seemingly low offensive stats fool you.
Havent ladderd in a while but, who the fuck besides me is using this badass swan now?.
 
Forgot about swanna completely. His trollish base speed and STABS could really benefit a rain team. *Makes plans for Swanna quietly* >.>;
 
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