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Other Weather Nerf
- Thread starter superstar
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No, no at all. Ninetales is even worse now, but MegaZard Y also gets Drought, making Sun much more viable with two setters. Weather Stall was killed this gen, but weather offense is still very playable.
But I would still really, REALLY recommend to use at least one more Pokemon with Heat Rock Sunny Day just in case something goes wrong. Heat Rock on Ninetales is technically a must for dedicated sun weather team and he's easy to worn down, especially if you can't keep rocks off field. Mega Charizard-Y can't use Heat Rock obviously because of his MegaStone, so it only lasts 5 turns. Anyway it's 100% doable, but Rain is IMO more reliable (Water is great STAB to have + 100% hurricane give more prons than Sun can with just only boost to Fire moves).
Sun gets its Chlorophyll sweepers.
Then again. Rain is getting its Swift Swim sweepers back, too...
Even if auto-weather inducers like Drought/Drizzle are nerfed, I feel that sandstorm teams are relatively untouched in viability. With Hippowdon Smooth Rock Lead + Mega-Tyranitar in the picture and some nice additions in the form of Klefki and such. I had little to no problems using a slightly altered gen V team in current meta.
I find Mega T-Tar can never do very much when I face it, even if it manages a DD or two.
But this isn't the Tyranitar thread, now is it?
That being said, I've been running Assault Vest Tyranitar and Smooth Rock Hippowdon, and they work very well to keep Sand on the field.
This is very sound advice. I run a Sunny day Venusaur hoping that he never needs to use Sunny Day but let's just say I've had to use Sunny Day on him 80% of the time.
Other than that even the bulkiest of Ninetales gets taken out very easily so sun teams are only viable if you have 2 sun inducers, not worth committing to too many Chlorophyll sweepers to IMO.
The way I see it, Sun and rain would be best off using both an auto-inducer and someone carrying a back-up weather move.
That's how I ran MY weather teams. Ninetales was Primary and Heatran was Secondary. Politoed was Primary and Starmie was Secondary. Tyranitar and Hippowdon on the same team...that was my staple. Abomasnow was Primary and Starmie (again) was Secondary. I didn't run a weather team that often but when I did, that was the basis of how weather wars were won. It's a much more viable system now because of the weather nerf.
Preaching to the converted, somewhat of a best of both worlds from Gen 4 and 5. I'm using Politoed as Primary and Kingdra/Ludicolo as back-up. Considering dropping down to one swift swimmer.
P.S. Possibly consering using Klefki as primary Rain user.
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Umm no actual weather stall is viable. Take for example a classic sand stall: T-tar with an assault vest makes him extremely specially bulky in the sun. Couple him with a potent physical wall like Gliscor, Hippodown or M-Aggron who can set up sands and you already have a solid core. The nice thing with sand is that there are many viable defensive pokes who resist sand and can potentially set it up e.g. Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Donphan (Lol) etc.
This serious walling capability with the ability to set sand up shows that weather stall (well at least sand) is still pretty darn viable.
Personally I have even made a hail stall team which I got to +-1700 (and hail is well the runt of the weather litter....)
Setting up your weather as a move wastes valuable turns you could be phasing, setting up hazards, recovering, or generally doing damage. That group you listed is extremely Steel and Ground-heavy. Something like Keldeo could ruin it all for you.
Keeping weather up full time will be really tiresome and not worth the effort. Former stalls will have to give a more rushed approach to battling.
Tentacruel for instance will barely have time to rapid spin and set up T spikes before getting KO'd, so will it fore go one of its niches to fire off some scalds and set up a revenge kill? Will substitute and protect become more important moves in its arsenal? I have no clue but I'm interested in seeing what these former stall pokes turn into since their current roles were weakened greatly.
Ttar similarly shouldn't be used to long term wall special attackers, but use its safe switch in to take out a poke that otherwise could wreck your team with its strong attacks, and then maybe get out of the way for a sweeper like Excadrill to abuse the remaining sand.
An entire team built solely around weather is going to die fast, but more focused "weather wreckers" (thats what I'm going with) could rise up from the ruin of the "weather walls"
Tentacruel for instance will barely have time to rapid spin and set up T spikes before getting KO'd, so will it fore go one of its niches to fire off some scalds and set up a revenge kill? Will substitute and protect become more important moves in its arsenal? I have no clue but I'm interested in seeing what these former stall pokes turn into since their current roles were weakened greatly.
Ttar similarly shouldn't be used to long term wall special attackers, but use its safe switch in to take out a poke that otherwise could wreck your team with its strong attacks, and then maybe get out of the way for a sweeper like Excadrill to abuse the remaining sand.
An entire team built solely around weather is going to die fast, but more focused "weather wreckers" (thats what I'm going with) could rise up from the ruin of the "weather walls"
Pretty much what's happening. Offensive weathers like Kingdra and Excadrill are cleaning up the battlefield very nicely, while weather setters and more importantly walls (like the aforementioned Tentacruel) are really taking a back seat if they are used at all.
I've been using a Specs Politoed, and it completely wreaks the opposition in the same way in gen 6 as it did in gen 5. Its really easy to use, just switch in to a resisted attack or something slower than you and press Hydro Pump. It can be even more effective in some ways, as there is less emphasis on countering rain teams than there once was.
So I've been planning a team build around MegaZardY for a while, and I finally decided that the best way would be a team that rotates the pokemon often so Drought can be reapplied a lot. I've got a list of potential team members, but I'll need help sorting through them.
MegaZardY (Drought support, special attacker, EQ immunity)
Infernape (U-Turn pivot, Physical/Mixed Attacker)
Torkoal (rapid spin support, special attacker, yawn)
Mienshao (U-Turn pivot, Regenerator, physical Attacker, fake out, doesn't need sun support-possible lead)
Moltres (Defog support, Special attacker, EQ immunity)
Scizor (Defog support, U-Turn Pivot, priority user)
Crobat (defog support, U-Turn pivot, infiltrator)
Talonflame (Physical Attacker, priority user, U-turn pivot)
Rotom-H (Volt Switch pivot, Special tank, WoW/Twave support, EQ immunity)
Heliolisk (Solar Power, Volt Switch pivot, Special Sweeper)
Darmanitan (Physical Attacker, U-Turn pivot)
Cherrim (Flower Gift Support)
Venasaur (Chlorophyll sweeper)
Delphox (Special Attacker, Magician gimmick)
Ninetails (Drought support, special attacker)
Arcanine (Intimidate support, Physical/mixed Attacker)
Salamence (Intimidate support, Physical/mixed attacker)
Heatran (Special Attacker)
Pangoro (Parting Shot)
There's probably a lot more, and I didn't even bother including all the pokemon that can run sunny day or taunt, but this might be a reasonable way to keep the sun team alive. Let me know what you think
MegaZardY (Drought support, special attacker, EQ immunity)
Infernape (U-Turn pivot, Physical/Mixed Attacker)
Torkoal (rapid spin support, special attacker, yawn)
Mienshao (U-Turn pivot, Regenerator, physical Attacker, fake out, doesn't need sun support-possible lead)
Moltres (Defog support, Special attacker, EQ immunity)
Scizor (Defog support, U-Turn Pivot, priority user)
Crobat (defog support, U-Turn pivot, infiltrator)
Talonflame (Physical Attacker, priority user, U-turn pivot)
Rotom-H (Volt Switch pivot, Special tank, WoW/Twave support, EQ immunity)
Heliolisk (Solar Power, Volt Switch pivot, Special Sweeper)
Darmanitan (Physical Attacker, U-Turn pivot)
Cherrim (Flower Gift Support)
Venasaur (Chlorophyll sweeper)
Delphox (Special Attacker, Magician gimmick)
Ninetails (Drought support, special attacker)
Arcanine (Intimidate support, Physical/mixed Attacker)
Salamence (Intimidate support, Physical/mixed attacker)
Heatran (Special Attacker)
Pangoro (Parting Shot)
There's probably a lot more, and I didn't even bother including all the pokemon that can run sunny day or taunt, but this might be a reasonable way to keep the sun team alive. Let me know what you think
i am happy with weather nerf . people have to play smarter to keep their weather up instead of sacking ther weather starter first turn and hope to do some heavy damage( unless the other team has weather and then they kept their weather starter)
This is my experience in gen5 and knowing how weather is broken over there its a good change
This is my experience in gen5 and knowing how weather is broken over there its a good change
Moltres: You don't want your defogger to be 4x weak to the most common entry hazard, but the other two sets are perfectly viable.
Delphox: It just doesn't do anything with sun that any other generic fire type couldn't do.
Lots of really good pokes you could add here....
Things you could add
Volcarona (Special attacker, setup sweeper)
Victini (
Chandelure (special attacker, specs nuke)
Snorlax (special tank)
Donphan (rapid spinner, physical tank, hazard setter)
Starmie (spinner, special attacker)
Dugtrio (scarfed trapper)
Espeon (magic bouncer + screen support)
Snorlax might be a stretch, but the team appreciates EQ and nothing outside of focus miss is hitting it specially. Starmie doesn't need it's water stab; spin + boltbeam + filler can support the team plenty, removing waters and dragons with ease. Sun removes donphan's water weakness, and a resistance to SR is big for a sun team. Dugtrio is huge, removing opposing weather and heatran almost flawlessly, who is sun's biggest enemy. Espeon allows you to skip steps in regards to hazards, and both wishes and screens allow your weather setters to switch in more often. The other ones are straight forward enough.
Claydol is a good rapid spinner in sun, losing a water weakness and resisting Stealth Rock. Can also throw up a screen to help any set up sweeper, or hold a Heat Rock and use Sunny Day itself. And Roserade is a strong special attacker with Solar Beam and Weather Ball. Can also set up Toxic Spikes or use Aromatherapy.
I also forgot Blaziken (physical sweeper or baton passer), Leavanny (Chloryphyll sweeper or baton passer), and sawsbuck (same as leavanny)
So of the 6 slots I have, I need at least one lead, drought support (MegaZardY), one physical attacker, one special attacker, one defog/rapid spinner, and probably 1 support
Leads:
Mienshao (Scout)
Claydol (SR, Sunny Day, Rapid Spin)
Espeon (Magic Bounce, Dual Screens)
Roserade (Tspikes)
Infernape (Anti-lead)
Drought support:
Charizard (duh)
Physical Attackers:
Blaziken (Sun flare blitzes scare the living day lights out of a lot of people)
Darmanitan (Flare Blitz AND U-Turn)
Talonflame (same as above, AND priority brave bird)
Infernape (U-Turn, Flare Blitz, and close combat make a great pivot)
Arcanine (can't U-turn, but has morning sun and better bulk to survive a lot longer)
Victini (V Create, 'nuff said)
Dugtrio (trapper)
Snorlax (Special Wall)
Special Attackers:
Rotom-H (volt switch provides coverage and pivot)
Heliolisk (^ and solar power-which doesn't damage on volt switch)
Venasaur (Chloryphyll)
Heatran (Trapper, great resistances)
Volcarona (Besides fiery dance and quiver dance, bug buzz now hits through subs. Worth noting)
Chandelure (Specs set is a nuke)
Defog/Rapid Spin:
Starmie (Special attacker too)
Crobat (Infiltrator/U-Turn)
Scizor (U-Turn/priority user)
Donphan (Physical Tank/SR)
Flygon (SR resistance/Defog/U-Turn)
Support:
Blaziken (Baton Pass)
Ninetales (another weather setter could be helpful)
*This role could be switched for another role, depending on necessity.
Now for the fun part of narrowing it down. I've already knocked some out, based on this being a singles OU team, but there's still a lot of work to do, and I'm pretty sure I'm STILL forgetting some.
So of the 6 slots I have, I need at least one lead, drought support (MegaZardY), one physical attacker, one special attacker, one defog/rapid spinner, and probably 1 support
Leads:
Mienshao (Scout)
Claydol (SR, Sunny Day, Rapid Spin)
Espeon (Magic Bounce, Dual Screens)
Roserade (Tspikes)
Infernape (Anti-lead)
Drought support:
Charizard (duh)
Physical Attackers:
Blaziken (Sun flare blitzes scare the living day lights out of a lot of people)
Darmanitan (Flare Blitz AND U-Turn)
Talonflame (same as above, AND priority brave bird)
Infernape (U-Turn, Flare Blitz, and close combat make a great pivot)
Arcanine (can't U-turn, but has morning sun and better bulk to survive a lot longer)
Victini (V Create, 'nuff said)
Dugtrio (trapper)
Snorlax (Special Wall)
Special Attackers:
Rotom-H (volt switch provides coverage and pivot)
Heliolisk (^ and solar power-which doesn't damage on volt switch)
Venasaur (Chloryphyll)
Heatran (Trapper, great resistances)
Volcarona (Besides fiery dance and quiver dance, bug buzz now hits through subs. Worth noting)
Chandelure (Specs set is a nuke)
Defog/Rapid Spin:
Starmie (Special attacker too)
Crobat (Infiltrator/U-Turn)
Scizor (U-Turn/priority user)
Donphan (Physical Tank/SR)
Flygon (SR resistance/Defog/U-Turn)
Support:
Blaziken (Baton Pass)
Ninetales (another weather setter could be helpful)
*This role could be switched for another role, depending on necessity.
Now for the fun part of narrowing it down. I've already knocked some out, based on this being a singles OU team, but there's still a lot of work to do, and I'm pretty sure I'm STILL forgetting some.
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imo, the weather nerf hasn't been the downfall of weather itself. instead, people must play more carefully whilst using weather, not just setting up weather from turn 1 and sacking their weather setter. things like excadrill and kingdra are better at cleaning up than outright sweeping the opposing team, since they only have 4 turns (counting the switch-in) to abuse the weather. rain seems to have taken the biggest hit tbh, as politoed itself relies on the rain it provides to do any damage to the opposing team. without the rain, it's pretty redundant. sand is probably the most dominant weather right now, as it's not just a weather to abuse; like in gen 5 it can neutralize opposing weathers and it deals passive damage. hippowdon also walls plenty of physical threats, and ttar is able to wall to wall a plethora of special threats with assault vest, or use it's mega form to sweep with dd.
Let's not forget that weather moves have crazy good distribution. Here's a game, go to Pokemon Showdown, find any pokemon in the world that you might consider using as a weather setter for any kind of weather at all, go to the move set and type in that weather. You'd be surprised.
Some standouts:
Goodra with his Hydration, Thunder, and Rest basically allows him to set up rain and then never die ever. Who said restration was dead again?
Regigigas: I menthion this guy solely cuz he's NU and is unlikely to leave. He has tremendous bulk for any tier, is capable of running parafusion to set up a safe switch in for your weather sweeper of choice, and he can pull this off multiple times because even the strongest of the NU pokemon can only hope to 2 shot him, most of them don't have a prayer of doing so before he pulls out the T-waves.
Scizor, particularly mega scizor: take the bulk of a ferrothorn, the typing and hazard removal of forretress, the u-turn of every scizor ever, the reliable recovery of Reunclus, and then add in rain dance. No, this is not frankenstien, but one of the best rain setters in the current meta. This is the perfect guy to safely set the rain and then safely transition into specs Gorebyss or banded Azumarill to dish out the pain and fast. Specs gorebyss in the rain will outspeed and outright ohko most of the meta, without the defensive drawbacks or more importantly, the setup time and risk of shell smash sets. Banded Azumarill works for obvious reasons, heck you could even run a kabutops or kingdra and still wreck.
Some standouts:
Goodra with his Hydration, Thunder, and Rest basically allows him to set up rain and then never die ever. Who said restration was dead again?
Regigigas: I menthion this guy solely cuz he's NU and is unlikely to leave. He has tremendous bulk for any tier, is capable of running parafusion to set up a safe switch in for your weather sweeper of choice, and he can pull this off multiple times because even the strongest of the NU pokemon can only hope to 2 shot him, most of them don't have a prayer of doing so before he pulls out the T-waves.
Scizor, particularly mega scizor: take the bulk of a ferrothorn, the typing and hazard removal of forretress, the u-turn of every scizor ever, the reliable recovery of Reunclus, and then add in rain dance. No, this is not frankenstien, but one of the best rain setters in the current meta. This is the perfect guy to safely set the rain and then safely transition into specs Gorebyss or banded Azumarill to dish out the pain and fast. Specs gorebyss in the rain will outspeed and outright ohko most of the meta, without the defensive drawbacks or more importantly, the setup time and risk of shell smash sets. Banded Azumarill works for obvious reasons, heck you could even run a kabutops or kingdra and still wreck.
I did, and believe me, I tried to force it to work, but even I learned the hard way that Hydration Goodra is just inferior to his other sets
I'm pretty sure weather will still see the light of day. The problem is that Pokemon will have to use it for themselves; so weather stall is dead. But on the brightside Ttar, hippowdon, and mega abamasnow can now fit better on teams, 5 turns is enough time for stab blizzard to leave a dent.
So after running a bunch of damage calcs, I think the sun team I'll run starting in December will look like:
Infernape @ Focus Sash (Fake Out, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, U-Turn)
Charizard @ Charizardite Y (Fire Blast, Solar Beam, Air Slash, Roost)
Heliolisk @ Life Orb (Thunderbolt/Parabolic Charge, Grass Knot, Surf, Volt Switch)
Flygon @ Leftovers (Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Defog, U-Turn)
Venasaur @ Heat Rock (Solar Beam, HP Fire, Sleep Powder, Sunny Day)
Heatran @ Air Balloon (Fire Blast, Flash Cannon, HP Ice, Stealth Rock)
If anybody notices I forgot something, feel free to point it out. I'll work on a sand team next.
Infernape @ Focus Sash (Fake Out, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, U-Turn)
Charizard @ Charizardite Y (Fire Blast, Solar Beam, Air Slash, Roost)
Heliolisk @ Life Orb (Thunderbolt/Parabolic Charge, Grass Knot, Surf, Volt Switch)
Flygon @ Leftovers (Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Defog, U-Turn)
Venasaur @ Heat Rock (Solar Beam, HP Fire, Sleep Powder, Sunny Day)
Heatran @ Air Balloon (Fire Blast, Flash Cannon, HP Ice, Stealth Rock)
If anybody notices I forgot something, feel free to point it out. I'll work on a sand team next.
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