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What If? - Alternate Timelines (AT #10w: Snaelstrom - Defining Moves Discussion)

Water/Ice is an incredibly potent combination, especially paired with Freeze-Dry.

However in the interest of variety, some other types that could compliment Water offensively are...

Poison: While there are better STAB options on the special side of Poison, both are usable. Namely, this allows AT Snaelstrom to threaten Cresceidon and Ogerpon-Wellspring, two big potential checks. The common chance for Poison status also play into our seeming hit-and-run play style. There's also the very Download-friendly Shell Side-Arm

Psychic: Like Poison, there's a slight bias to the special side, but both are usable. To goal here is instead to target two other potential checks in Arghonaut and Mollux. There's also the very niche application of Download for Future Sight.
 
I kinda forgot about this and my week irl got away from me anyways but here we are with a slate!

Water/Ice
Water/Poison
Water/Psychic

Small slate so gonna give this 24 hours before we move onto defining moves!
 
Water/Psychic

I’ll put a little reasoning down… boosted psychic moves put pressure on a lot of defensive centerpieces, and in combination with flip turn for things like Ting-Lu and Libra in addition to moves like Psychic Noise, you put a ton of pressure on fat in particular. I really feel like this typing excels as a mixed attacking pivot, while something like water/ice might choose to just be a strong special attacker since everything kinda just dies.
 
Another very close vote has come to an end with the winner being...

Water/Poison

Now that we have our ability and typing, let's move onto defining moves!

There are some super obvious choices for this AT, but I do wanna acknowledge the caveat of it can't "have it all" either so...

What, if any, moves are we willing to penalize should one want to submit a stat spread?

I think there is definitely some interesting discussion to go into this particular AT's defining moves stage so I want to make sure and give us at least until the weekend to figure out what moves are defining enough to be considered for potential penalties (or bonuses) as well as being required when stats submissions open up! Have fun :D
 
I've been against stiff penalties on the vast majority of moves that synergize with our abilities throughout this starters process, but this guy is a little different because literally every attacking move that exists has move-ability synergy. So a little penalizing here and there is like whatever.

Thoughts on STABs:

Flip Turn, Gunk Shot, Sludge Bomb, Surf, Hydro Pump, and Liquidation are fine imo. Wave Crash feels awkward to me here. I think having Hydro Pump be the go-to strong water STAB fits the mold better, so I'd be fine with some kind of penalty. Aqua Step might deserve a penalty if it's allowed; it's a little scary with an auto-boosting ability, especially on a mon that bulky waters like Mola, Arghonaut, and Cresceidon can't switch into comfortably. Shell Side Arm is just a weird move and sometimes not worth it in my opinion, but it does have specific and unique synergy with our ability, so it's probably worth just allowing or maybe having a light penalty I guess. I do think Sludge Bomb might end up just being better though, particularly since we're likely mixed anyway so we're not worried about being walled by like Blissey. Scald I'd put a penalty on. Dire Claw............. So like,

Other moves:

I'd be against most non-attacking or weak utility that's not implied by our typing (toxic, tspikes, etc) because it's not really concept-relevant. We probably do need some coverage, mainly for Mollux, since it walls you to hell and back and also blocks flip turn. Ground coverage feels a little too good, because now you're just killing it as well as targeting Glowking and things like Naviathan and Toxapex and genuinely have no switch-ins and kind of no reason to pivot out in most cases. Maybe Psychic coverage though? There might be an argument for Knock Off instead I guess... could help encourage mixed sets. A little iffy on that.
 
Alright, apologies for breaking up discussion again, but here’s my submission for AT Smokomodo’s flavor!

Untitled_Artwork.png

Mantechnik
The Supercharged Pokemon
Fire / Electric

Based off the Devil’s Flower Mantis, fireflies, Pyrotechnics and Firecrackers!

Supporting Material
IMG_6764.jpeg
 
With that amazing submission out of the way, I'd like to return to the discussion for AT Snael. I'm going to defer a lot to Vile's reasoning, as I largely agree with it. Instead I want to focus on how Download will actually function in a match. There's two main paths to discuss: direct switch-ins and slow pivots. We'll go in order since the latter is more interesting.

These suggest AT Snael taking a hit to offensively threaten the opponent the next turn. The possible candidates here are pretty slim, namely the bulky Water-types like Cresc, Alomo, and possibly Snael itself. Besides the threat of Scald Burn from the former two, all three will boost SpA. Even expanding this list to the most extreme edge cases, the majority will boost SpA.

The biggest exceptions are the bulky Poison-types, namely Glowking, Mollux, and the rare Clodsire, which all boost Atk. However, Water Absorb on the latter two means they effectively wall AT Snael absent coverage.

That's all to suggest an AT Snael will want
• Water STAB, preferably special
• Special Poison STAB
• Physical coverage for Poison-types.

These, in contrast, rely on our teammates to position AT Snael effectively. There are a few candidates for partners, but the most obvious is probably Glowking. So what comes in on Glowking and, more importantly, what does AT Snael need to threaten them?

Ground-types are the first obvious answer. And luckily, AT Snael is well-suited to threatening them with its Water STAB. The vast majority of Ground-types will boost SpA (even a max SpD Ting Lu!). Libra is the big one exception, but we'll address it soon.

Garg is another answer, and likewise, AT Snael can threaten it with Water STAB. The tricky part here is, while a SpA boost is most likely, an Atk boost is possible with sets fully invested in SpD. So having the option of a physical move would be welcome.

Steel-types are also a consideration, however these are a bit more open-ended. Obviously Poison STAB won't help. Most will be boosting SpA. The few exceptions are Libra, Heatran, and Ramnarok, which all are weak to our Water STAB. For the others, Ground will hit more than Fighting, but both have their merits.

Where Fighting shines is against another group: Dark types and Blissey. Almost every one of these will be boosting Atk. The notable exceptions are Ting Lu, which was already covered, and Kingambit, which isn't taking a Fighting move regardless.

Because it is paired with Glowking, Poison STAB is less useful overall and AT Snael is left with with
• Water STAB
• Ground coverage for Steel and Poison-types
• Physical Fighting coverage for the other Steel types, Dark types, and Blissey

TLDR: AT Snael always wants powerful Water STAB and prefers special in most cases. Aqua Step is probably fine if it comes at the cost of coverage.

Depending on it's role in the team, it may opt for special Poison STAB or physical Fighting coverage. Ground coverage is universally good

Because Ground so well complements STAB coverage, it should probably come with a hefty penalty, especially EQ. Fighting coverage & Knock Off are, respectively, less wide-ranging and powerful alternatives that still threaten many targets.
 
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