-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Serious What should we do about bullying?
- Thread starter Cresselia~~
- Start date
Not sure if that's a perfect way to describe it, because people seem to have a different definition of self-esteem than is generally used in psychology. As a warning, not a psychologist, just did a bit of reading on the subject. Basically yes, bullies DO tend have higher self-esteem, but can also be prone to shame. Basically, you can have a high sense of self-worth, but are also be afraid of your shortcomings becoming exposed so you sort of just... pass it on, rather than actively feel it. Sort of like how it is with narcissists, they have a grandiose sense of self-esteem or self-worth that isn't fake, but it is vulnerable and the actions they might take to prevent their provoked internal feelings of inadequacy from becoming public can often be aggressive towards or toxic for the people surrounding them. It's a bit counter-intuitive.
Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone, just that there is at least some research linking aggressive behaviour in kids with narcissism + high self esteem and feelings of shame. Then again I've also found some research suggesting that self-esteem is irrelevant and only narcissism itself has to do with aggressive dickery. And the fact that many, if not most people (including yourself) engage in mild to moderate forms of bullying says that it's probably more complex than just having a personality disorder, but who knows?
Sources: Dickbutt
Farts
Early poop
Do butts have low self esteem?
also some stuff about aggression and cognitive/affective/total empathy
Like I said before, this isn't about whether bullying can be entirely eradicated. This is about how to mitigate it. Lots of behaviors allowed for human civilization to advance into the modern day, including cannibalism, sex slavery, and dictatorships run on cults of personality, but none of these are condoned in the modern world.
Honestly, people have to learn how to stand up for who they are, you cannot mitigate bullying generally, if that was the case most wars wouldn't have happened, it's tribalism. Building your own character and learning not to immediately fold under peer pressure is essential to becoming a mature person. I know many adults who aren't mature in that regard. When I was younger I was bullied all the time for being a fat nerd, martial arts did help me a lot in overcoming my own weaknesses and turning them into strengths.
I dunno this may sound like empty platitudes but anyone who went through all that shit will tell you roughly the same, if you accept your weaknesses and don't let yourself get dragged down, they can't pick you apart. However if the bullying goes so far that it's crossing legal boundaries, you should really contact other people or authorities to help you, no shame in that.
Hope my perspective could help someone.
I dunno this may sound like empty platitudes but anyone who went through all that shit will tell you roughly the same, if you accept your weaknesses and don't let yourself get dragged down, they can't pick you apart. However if the bullying goes so far that it's crossing legal boundaries, you should really contact other people or authorities to help you, no shame in that.
Hope my perspective could help someone.
Except there are multiple people in this thread who have experienced bullying and who have said the opposite of what you have said and do not believe that the onus to prevent bullying should be on or can feasibly be on the victim. Adversity can be character-building; severe illness was character-building for me, but bullying and its extension resulted in severe trauma for me that frankly I'd skip the character-building to not have if I could. I learned to like myself in spite of bullying, not because of it.
I think it's wrong and hurtful to suggest that people who are hurt by bullying or any other kind of severe adversity and find it hinders their progress in the future are immature, especially because being hurt by bullying does not mean you immediately fold under peer pressure or feel insecure about who you are. While learning to feel comfortable about who you are is an important step towards being happy and secure, it doesn't mean you're immune to outside influence or just plain unable to be hurt by situations (the psychological stress of harassment and abuse, physical injury, anxiety, etc.). Furthermore, every single person has their limits and people who are being bullied don't need the further shaming of feeling 'too weak' because they experience a normal and understandable reaction to continued suffering.
That being said, I am glad you found a way of overcoming your experiences, and I do agree that it's important for everyone, bullied or not, to develop self-respect. No matter how much you like yourself, though, even if you believe the things you are being bullied about are good things, the very act and implications of bullying are painful and nobody should be shamed for struggling to deal with it, ESPECIALLY at a young age when one's sense of self isn't fully established.
Also, there are very few parallels between war and bullying.
I was talking more about peer pressure and group mentality than individual harrassment because I am way more experienced with it.
I highly disagree that my perspective is counterproductive to some, life doesn't give you ever an easy time, you shouldn't ask for lighter burdens, you ask for broader shoulders.
Unless (and I said that) the harrassment goes extreme, then you should really ask all the people you can to help you and I mean all the support you can get.
Yes, it's good to ask for help and reach out to those around you. This is something we should encourage for everyone, and as a society we would be better off if people felt comfortable asking for help. The problem with your broad approach is that many people who are bullied don't really have support networks, which can be a cause of bullying and/or a result of it. Teachers are limited in what they can do (and going to the teacher can often exacerbate your situation) and many people who are bullied find themselves ostracised or with very few friends. This is another reason we should be looking at other angles through which we can stop bullying.
This is unhelpful and poorly justified. Why should we make people suffer bullying instead of trying to stop it? What is wrong with wanting your suffering to be lessened? What is wrong with suggesting that those who inflict suffering on others are the problem? (I am not saying this is mutually exclusive to supporting the victim as if we could instantly stop bullying we would have done it, but I believe your message simply adds another form of pressure to people who are experiencing any sort of adversity and struggle to meet it, which is why I am so opposed. For example, those with depression often find their depression worsens based on external attitudes because they feel judged for being unable to cope with their problems and for being 'weak'.) Yes, life is hard; it's hard enough without bullying.
Bullying is a fact of society, it's not just school, if you let people trample on you, they will. However, now we descent into a philosophy debate and seeing how our upringing and life circumstances are entirely different, this dialogue is rather fruitless, I give people an alternative to your solution, if I may call it that. People should be able to choose whose advice to consider and its nice to see a variety of opinion avaiible to a range of people.
No need to be condescending!
I feel that bullying is unavoidable until very far in the future (I'm talking about sci-fi times). In any social situation, especially one with children, statuses will be developed. You know, "nerd", "goth", "jock". That's basic. It has an impact on everyone, though. I've been a nerd, a goth (blunder years), and right now I'm what they call a "cool nerd" (because nerds are cool or something). I feel like this has a major effect on bullying. I know a lot of people in my school, some people who were bullied, and a few bullies. The bullied are the "nerds" in every situation I've seen, be them preppy or socially awkward. Any "neckbeard" is picked on, naturally.
If we were to remove those statuses (nerds, neckbeards), then I think I know what would happen. The cool kids would find another status to be lame and vulnerable, and then pick on them. Not that I know of any way to possibly make nerds stop being nerds. That would be possibly more cruel than bullying.
The statuses and labels cannot go. They are inherent. Instead of removing the reason for bullying, then, remove the bullying! I won't go into this one, though, because you can't do that. You can't make bullies not be bullies. That involves counselors who cannot help, and more importantly, finding out who is a bully, to what degree, and if it's worth stopping them.
I think that, once again, any social situation with children will eventually lead to labels, which leads to bullying. There's solutions, but they involve isolating the children, and that is clearly not something that can happen any time soon.
With all of that being said, I feel that the system is the best the way it is now.
The biggest flaw in the current system (to most people) is that there will always be extreme cases of bullying (suicides, shootings, etc.). However, I feel that a lot of those were partly due to the victim being psychologically unbalanced. That's something that can't go ignored, since there will always be unstable people out there.
If I've said anything out of line, please go easy on me. Thanks for listening!
I feel that bullying is unavoidable until very far in the future (I'm talking about sci-fi times). In any social situation, especially one with children, statuses will be developed. You know, "nerd", "goth", "jock". That's basic. It has an impact on everyone, though. I've been a nerd, a goth (blunder years), and right now I'm what they call a "cool nerd" (because nerds are cool or something). I feel like this has a major effect on bullying. I know a lot of people in my school, some people who were bullied, and a few bullies. The bullied are the "nerds" in every situation I've seen, be them preppy or socially awkward. Any "neckbeard" is picked on, naturally.
If we were to remove those statuses (nerds, neckbeards), then I think I know what would happen. The cool kids would find another status to be lame and vulnerable, and then pick on them. Not that I know of any way to possibly make nerds stop being nerds. That would be possibly more cruel than bullying.
The statuses and labels cannot go. They are inherent. Instead of removing the reason for bullying, then, remove the bullying! I won't go into this one, though, because you can't do that. You can't make bullies not be bullies. That involves counselors who cannot help, and more importantly, finding out who is a bully, to what degree, and if it's worth stopping them.
I think that, once again, any social situation with children will eventually lead to labels, which leads to bullying. There's solutions, but they involve isolating the children, and that is clearly not something that can happen any time soon.
With all of that being said, I feel that the system is the best the way it is now.
The biggest flaw in the current system (to most people) is that there will always be extreme cases of bullying (suicides, shootings, etc.). However, I feel that a lot of those were partly due to the victim being psychologically unbalanced. That's something that can't go ignored, since there will always be unstable people out there.
If I've said anything out of line, please go easy on me. Thanks for listening!
Whilst in most of my time on schools I haven't really been a victim of bullying, there was a year in which I did get bullied. The year after that, I was gone from that school, and went to a school with a smart kids class. That I was amongst equals who I could get along with really well helped me out a lot, and the "bullying" towards us from kids out of normal classes was viewed by me and my friends as entertaining.
As a result, I believe that bullying usually starts out of the perceived "otherness" of the victim, and that by reducing the otherness or perceived otherness in a group, you reduce the bullying. So perhaps we should try to sort children based on some criteria (probably performance at school) as soon as possible? Of course, that would be no full solution, but I think it would shrink the problem as well as having other benefits.
That's my experience with and view on this issue: The system could be better.
As a result, I believe that bullying usually starts out of the perceived "otherness" of the victim, and that by reducing the otherness or perceived otherness in a group, you reduce the bullying. So perhaps we should try to sort children based on some criteria (probably performance at school) as soon as possible? Of course, that would be no full solution, but I think it would shrink the problem as well as having other benefits.
That's my experience with and view on this issue: The system could be better.
yeah I'm sorry but I really can not agree with this whole fatalistic "bullying is going to happen no matter what you do, so just throw your hands up and hope that you're mentally / physically strong enough to endure it" business. Even from my own limited experience of being in many different schools and school environments (around 6 relevant ones, public, private, etc), I can say with certainty that the scale of the bullying was not even close in some situations to what it was in others. Was there still some sort of "bullying" in the most technical sense of the word? Sure, but the scale to with it affected people's mental and physical health was enormously different than situations at other schools. Not all bullying is the same, and the fact that certain areas have far more of a bullying problem than others is a testament to its preventability. Bullying can and should be mitigated.
The victim is not at fault in any way, shape, or form. Some of you have talked about the most serious cases in which bullying leads to suicides and shootings, and maintained that this was because they were "psychologically unbalanced" anyway. This does not excuse the behavior of the bullies. If you give a dose of poison to a random sample of 100 people, and it's lethal to 50% of them, it is not the victims' fault for being too weak, or too old, or too unhealthy to survive the dosage. In cases where bullying is the direct cause of suicide, bullying is the problem - whether or not there were other factors that led to it.
Bullying is not a case of survival of the fittest. Every student (and for that matter, every person) should not have to be exposed to bullying and harassment, and this harassment should not be viewed as some sick ritualistic rite of passage that weeds out the psychologically and physically weak and strengthens the rest (p.s. it doesn't). I know that I've been extremely fortunate to not have been bullied to the scale that others have been, but even the relatively small amount of bullying I've dealt with has had lasting and destructive effects on me physically and psychologically. Bullying is a huge part of why I have as severe of anxiety-related disorders (body dysmorphia, anorexia, actual OCD), and I refuse to forgive all of the bullying that I experienced just because it's made me have to fight through these challenges (and tbh I still do).
the interwebs I think the point you brought up about sorting people into groups based on their performance in school is really interesting, because it's a situation I've been in too. I was sorted into an advanced group around 6th grade, and I've had classes with the same group of intelligent and (mostly) great people ever since. All of the bullying and harassment problems I've ever had came from the other classes that weren't divided that I was in. So, on the surface, this seems to be really helpful.
However, the problem is that the bullying doesn't go away, it just shifts the target. Not everyone can be sorted into a high-acheiving group, so the focus of the bullying just shifts from the kids in that group to the next available target. While it makes life more comfortable for the most intelligent (and I guess probably the most likely to be picked on) group of kids, it doesn't really solve the systemic problem. The fight against bullying really needs to focus more on adequate punishment and supervision rather than on expending resources to protect only the most likely victims.
The victim is not at fault in any way, shape, or form. Some of you have talked about the most serious cases in which bullying leads to suicides and shootings, and maintained that this was because they were "psychologically unbalanced" anyway. This does not excuse the behavior of the bullies. If you give a dose of poison to a random sample of 100 people, and it's lethal to 50% of them, it is not the victims' fault for being too weak, or too old, or too unhealthy to survive the dosage. In cases where bullying is the direct cause of suicide, bullying is the problem - whether or not there were other factors that led to it.
Bullying is not a case of survival of the fittest. Every student (and for that matter, every person) should not have to be exposed to bullying and harassment, and this harassment should not be viewed as some sick ritualistic rite of passage that weeds out the psychologically and physically weak and strengthens the rest (p.s. it doesn't). I know that I've been extremely fortunate to not have been bullied to the scale that others have been, but even the relatively small amount of bullying I've dealt with has had lasting and destructive effects on me physically and psychologically. Bullying is a huge part of why I have as severe of anxiety-related disorders (body dysmorphia, anorexia, actual OCD), and I refuse to forgive all of the bullying that I experienced just because it's made me have to fight through these challenges (and tbh I still do).
the interwebs I think the point you brought up about sorting people into groups based on their performance in school is really interesting, because it's a situation I've been in too. I was sorted into an advanced group around 6th grade, and I've had classes with the same group of intelligent and (mostly) great people ever since. All of the bullying and harassment problems I've ever had came from the other classes that weren't divided that I was in. So, on the surface, this seems to be really helpful.
However, the problem is that the bullying doesn't go away, it just shifts the target. Not everyone can be sorted into a high-acheiving group, so the focus of the bullying just shifts from the kids in that group to the next available target. While it makes life more comfortable for the most intelligent (and I guess probably the most likely to be picked on) group of kids, it doesn't really solve the systemic problem. The fight against bullying really needs to focus more on adequate punishment and supervision rather than on expending resources to protect only the most likely victims.
The separation based on success in studies doesn't serve to get the poor little nerds away from those evil, evil jocks, but (besides giving children education at their level as quickly as possible) to reduce performance disparity, which I would presume increases solidarity in class and thus reduces bullying. I don't believe that there are some people who are just inherently bullies, and will always bully SOMEONE. I think that bullying can only exist when there is someone different enough to be bullied: Take away a form of otherness, and you take away some bullying. Of course, this is no solution, it just reduces the size of the problem. But with problems of this scale, that's often all you, so it's important not to dismiss such things just because they don't completely 100% wipe the problem off the face off the planet: Less bullying is better than the same amount of bullying, right?
I'd argue preventative measures, even if they affect slightly less bullying, are generally preferable over punitive measures: Before someone can be adequately punished for bullying, first there has to be a bullying victim that suffered.
Last edited:
Actually, at least in my experience, the real help that exclusive classes for "high-acheiving" students has offered is not only the physical distance from the "evil, evil jocks", but the creation of a solid support group of similar people. There may be a link between performance disparity and bullying, but all of my experience suggests that bullying usually occurs over traits other than intelligence, which sort of makes sense. I can't really agree with your evaluation that no one is inherently a bully - especially the concept of "otherness" that leads to the bullying. "otherness" isn't the only quality that can spur bullying - among others, shame and rage can also be huge driving factors towards bullying someone. Even if "otherness" were as necessary of a component to spurring on bullying as you're making it out to be, the wide variety of things that people are commonly bullied for factors like weight, ugliness, developmental stage, height, intelligence, sexuality, gender, wealth... make it so that there are actually very few people who are not "different enough to be bullied". I still believe that removing the people currently most likely to be bullied will do little more than just shift the targets to other heads.
However, I do want to be clear that I do think segmenting classes like this is massively helpful, just probably not for the reasons you've stated.
yeah well we have plenty of bullying victims so while that may sound nice on paper it's really not a practical problem. In my experience, there's been too much effort placed on preventative measures and a lack of conviction on the punishment - with "punishments" that really didn't solve anything (e.g. moving the person who was being bullied to a different chair, transferring them to another class) However, I do think that preventative measures are just as important (in fact, I even mentioned supervision in the first post, which is a very important preventative measure).
I think we need to have a solid support mechanism for victims for sure. Not to mention getting rid of the whole "No Tolerance Policy" bs. Like, you take my stuff, and then assault me, but if I hit you back I get suspended for 5 days too? What? I'm not the scumbag ruining other's day, I'm the kid who hates missing school because it hurts my grades. How can you expect kids to do anything if they're being punished for self defense.
As for cyber-bullying, this sums it up nicely.
As for cyber-bullying, this sums it up nicely.
Ok, just want to share my thoughts on this topic. First off, some people are bullied because of themselves. This is a small amount. These are the people who will steal your money, but get mad when you call them out on it. They are just jerks to everyone, so no one feels like being nice to them. I help out at a sports camp/daycare for children that runs during the summer. Some kids are just not easy to like. They may be spoiled brats who are used to getting their way, or bullies who pick on kids because they feel like it, or those kids who will not leave you alone and actively try to annoy you until you want to drown them. A lot of these kids just aren't nice to others, and they are shocked for some reason when these others are being mean to them. These aren't really victims, they have kind of brought it upon themselves.
All that said, this is a small amount of the bullied. Most are ordinary people, who have something extraordinary about them that isn't "cool" with the other kids. These victims will often stop doing the things they love because somebody tells them it is for girls or they are too old for it (never too old for pokemon!). It is sad and even sadder when their is an extreme act like suicide. Many bullies simply think they are having a bit of fun or just teasing. What we should do is help the bullies to understand that while these actions are normal to them, they hurt others. Please don't just say that the victims should tough it out or suck it up. A lot of times children are just trying to fit in and be like everyone else. They don't want to be judged. I want to remind anyone reading this that everyone is different, and their talents should be accepted as part of who they are. Please try to stop others from being cruel towards others, simply because they like something else, have different friends, or just look different. If we could all accept one another's differences, the world would be a much better place.
All that said, this is a small amount of the bullied. Most are ordinary people, who have something extraordinary about them that isn't "cool" with the other kids. These victims will often stop doing the things they love because somebody tells them it is for girls or they are too old for it (never too old for pokemon!). It is sad and even sadder when their is an extreme act like suicide. Many bullies simply think they are having a bit of fun or just teasing. What we should do is help the bullies to understand that while these actions are normal to them, they hurt others. Please don't just say that the victims should tough it out or suck it up. A lot of times children are just trying to fit in and be like everyone else. They don't want to be judged. I want to remind anyone reading this that everyone is different, and their talents should be accepted as part of who they are. Please try to stop others from being cruel towards others, simply because they like something else, have different friends, or just look different. If we could all accept one another's differences, the world would be a much better place.
Here's how you deal with bullying.
INSTANT suspension for first offense
INSTANT expulsion to alternative education or homeschooling for 3rd incidence
If behavior continues then depending on the age of the bully we start getting into criminal charges.
Zero tolerance.
Keep in mind bullying is an euphemism for harassment, which is against the law.
The minute bullying becomes something that could put you in court, or even behind bars, it's going to go WAY down. Not as much as it should but it will go down.
INSTANT suspension for first offense
INSTANT expulsion to alternative education or homeschooling for 3rd incidence
If behavior continues then depending on the age of the bully we start getting into criminal charges.
Zero tolerance.
Keep in mind bullying is an euphemism for harassment, which is against the law.
The minute bullying becomes something that could put you in court, or even behind bars, it's going to go WAY down. Not as much as it should but it will go down.
Punch the bullies in the face, yes I'm serious. Cyberbullies deserve punishment too. Perhaps the cyber police should inject viruses into their computers. I got cyberbullied on here for trying to get Mewtwo out of Ubers.
#justiceformewtwo
#justiceformewtwo
Your logic of bullying the bullied is completely off base. You wouldn't call someone a bully if they were to hit the person who just assaulted them would you? There's a thing called self-defense and it's completely justified at times. I wouldn't hit someone over verbal bullying like some uncivilized ape but definitely if people started making threats or became violent with me. Just like I wouldn't insult someone unless they cyber bullied or verbally bullied me.
lol you came into this thread, quoted my post and then tell me not to respond? It doesn't work like that and you don't have the authority to prevent me from posting here anyway. I'm not trolling or bullying for pointing out the hypocrisy that you came onto my profile to insult me but are now speaking out against bullying. Were you bullying me for calling me a troll? I'm not saying I was trolling but there's a difference between calling out behavior and calling someone an idiot.
I edited out the hypocrisy comment because you were kind enough to edit your insult off my profile. As for the Mewtwo thing I only mentioned it because that is what I was bullied for and this topic is about bullying. Go search out my posts in other threads where I don't mention Mewtwo at all. My beliefs are my beliefs and I wont change them for no man!
#justiceformeandjusticeformewtwo
Didnt even read his post but that's a magnificently loose definition of "bullying"
Bullying is an issue that will never be completely stopped, and in the UK I know that the government are doing as little as possible to help these issues. They may give the schools money to help them stop it, but the rules on bullying aren't as easy.
Its not easy enough to walk up to a teacher and ask for a chat, because teachers seem to blurt it out to everyone when you have specifically asked them just to keep the tone down.
I know this from past experiences. Schools need more than just teachers. They need a person who they feel safe to talk to. Everything is written down, but why can't there be one person where nothing is recorded, they're just there for a chat?
How situations like this have been dealt with is sick, but you know how else can we stop this. We can't. It will never fully be eradicated and it will never fully get resolved, teachers just need action plans and perhaps some teachers just need to make themselves a little less intimidating and a little more welcoming when you ask can we have a chat.
Its not easy enough to walk up to a teacher and ask for a chat, because teachers seem to blurt it out to everyone when you have specifically asked them just to keep the tone down.
I know this from past experiences. Schools need more than just teachers. They need a person who they feel safe to talk to. Everything is written down, but why can't there be one person where nothing is recorded, they're just there for a chat?
How situations like this have been dealt with is sick, but you know how else can we stop this. We can't. It will never fully be eradicated and it will never fully get resolved, teachers just need action plans and perhaps some teachers just need to make themselves a little less intimidating and a little more welcoming when you ask can we have a chat.