What's with the Leafeon Analysis?

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Ranevski

Ranevski

Name: Swords Dance Pass
move 1: Leaf Blade
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Baton Pass
move 4: Roar / Grasswhistle
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 128hp/176atk/204spd

This is the analysis for Leafeon Swords-Dance passer. Firstly, why 300 atk stat? The only things I can see you wanting to use unboosted Leaf Blade on are Swampert and Tyranitar.

Swampert
Killing Swampert in one hit is rather easy. The bulkiest Swampert (Impish 252def/252hp) will be die to a 287 atk stat on average and will always die to a 313 atk stat.

Tyranitar
You'll need two hits to kill any Tyranitar. Most will roll over after two Leaf Blades, only the ones that spec hp might survive. Even against a 404hp build (with leftovers) you will kill in two hits on average, and only you only need an atk stat of 279 to garuntee it.

More importantly, I think being able to OHK swampert is moot as I doubt anyone would leave it in against Leafeon. If you want to be able to OHK him on average though then you only need 124atk EV's. As for Tyranitar, base attack leaf blade will take off at least half of (most) that wish to test you, which will force them to switch out knowing the seconed hit will finsih the job. The only exception are builds that max/near max HP with leftovers, and even those are killed on average by base attack, and always by 124atk EV's. Therefor, I see little reason to give Leafeon any attack EV's, and no reason to give it more than 124 unless you want 228 to always OHK Swampert.

Secondly, it says that 204 speed EV's gives him 304 speed, which it doesn't, falling short at 299. You need 224 speed EV's.

The rest can go into HP and Defense which (as I see no good reason to pump attack) could be as much as 252hp/32def/224spd. This would make it far bulkier and perhaps actually worthy of leftovers. Honestly though wouldn't a Lum berry do more good? Leafeon is too bulky to be chipped to death. The opponent either attempts to status it in order to hinder its passing ability or they swap to something that can kill it in one hit. I really don't see leftovers doing much.

Anyway that's what I think. Please enlighten me if there's something I didn't think of or if I'm blind/retarded/stupid.
 
(I didn't mean it as an "wtf you don't know what you're talking about" - I meant it simply as an "I think this is wrong what do you guys think?")
 
Damanzi said:
They also only list a bunch of uu counters for walrein, who he would easily dominate with the wall set in hail.
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Let's think for a minute here... The Walrein analysis page: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21768
That was written JUNE TENTH, and last edited JUNE TENTH.

The "32 Turns of stall in the Hail" was introduced by Dragontamer, here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28213
That was posted AUGUST TWENTY-SEVENTH.

The stall set isn't even listed on the analysis page! Why would they put in OU counters on the analysis when the only viable set for OU isn't even listed there?

Sorry for going off topic, but that irritated me.

On topic! If you think the Leafeon analysis is wrong, or you find it lacking, don't post asking what's wrong with it! Come up with something yourself and post it here (with the proper damage calculations and strategy walkthrough). Yeah, I see you made some changes to the EVs, though according to some of the preceding posts seem to be wrong. I just think it's extremely rude, especially for someone so new, to come in here and say, "Hey, you guys did this wrong."
 
Yeah Loetke, that is the exact reason we have hand-picked the members of our DP Analysis team.

Anyway, the real issue behind this stems from the fact that it was indeed written in May. The members of the DP team were forced to go on little if ANY information to create their analysis for the masses of our community who have seemingly needed them since April 22. There wasn't much of a metagame at all when Aeolus wrote this four months ago, so how was he supposed to know the main pokemon with which Leafeon would be contending. I can almost guarantee that you, Ranevski, don't know the answer to this any better than he did.

My question to your "the only things I can see you wanting to use unboosted Leaf Blade on are Swampert and Tyranitar" is: honestly, what do you know? Have you used Leafeon? Have you been using Leafeon for the last five months? What kinds of opponents have you been facing? It may seem like an unfair assumption for me to say that you've never used Leafeon, but you haven't actually given any empirical evidence to back your claims, which is inexcusable considering it's not May anymore. Aeolus's list of counters is still a very accurate one, and his calculation were forced to come from little to no actual experience with Leafeon. Those who take issue with our analyses now do not have that hinderance, and there is no reason their ideas shouldn't be tested.

From the rules: "Any new threads should include a detailed description of how your set/strategy works and some damage calculations. Ideally, you should test it out and report your results."

I honestly fail to see how your set works any differently from what Aeolus wrote in the analysis. There is no new strategy here: no new moves, or nature...just an assumption of what you see as the only pokemon Leafeon would be using an unboosted Leaf Blade on. You state that Swampert is not staying in on Leafeon, which is very likely to be true, but why do you assume that Tyranitar is staying in but not Swampert? And what's more, why do you assume Leafeon will not have a Swords Dance under its belt, which is the reason behind its attack EVs? There are more than two pokemon Leafeon will have to deal with, and besides, your entire argument basically boils down to an EV idea that you haven't even tested yourself.

Lastly: 95 Base Speed = 226 speed, plus 204 EV / 4 EVs per stat point = 51 stat points + 226 speed = 277 speed, times 1.1 for the beneficial nature = 304.7 speed, which floored is 304 speed (you don't round up anywhere in pokemon calculations, DarkSpectrum, which is what I'm assuming you did). Your miscalculation of 304 speed really underlines the reasoning behind our handpicking of our DP Analysis team. This thread is really borderline, but I'll leave it open in the event you have something to say for yourself.
 
I think general idea behind the EV's best summed up in short.

304 speed is the priority, 300+HP gives a nice defensive number to work off and the rest goes into defense. Simple as that.

General thing is if you want to directly contest a analysis, make your own set, go out there, kick ass, come back with your results. These are old analysis and many can be contested and changed so long as you have the evidence and argument to back it up.
 
Well, like Jumpman said, back when the analyses were written, things were different. No one had any data to go on.

E.g. Rhyperior was hyped as one helluva threat. People were like "OMG UR RHYPERIOR WEAK!!" If you check out the teams on Shoddy you'll find very few Rhyperiors out there.

The metagame keeps changing. And having used Leafeon myself, I found Aeolus' analysis very useful.
 
Jumpman16 said:
Lastly: 95 Base Speed = 226 speed, plus 204 EV / 4 EVs per stat point = 51 stat points + 226 speed = 277 speed, times 1.1 for the beneficial nature = 304.7 speed, which floored is 304 speed (you don't round up anywhere in pokemon calculations, DarkSpectrum, which is what I'm assuming you did). Your miscalculation of 304 speed really underlines the reasoning behind our handpicking of our DP Analysis team. This thread is really borderline, but I'll leave it open in the event you have something to say for yourself.
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I'm actually going by serebii's dex page which lists leafeon's max speed with a beneficial nature as being 317.
From there I subtract 63 stat points (the max EV investment) to get 254.
That's 50 points different from 304 so multiplying that by 4 results in 200 evs to reach 304.

If this is wrong then please inform me of such because this is how i've been working all my stat calculations and I don't want all my hard work to be fore naught.
 
I am pretty sure I took the time to outline the correct way to do the calculation. You can't just subtract 63 points from 317: first of all, the real number is 317.9, which is floored to 317 and is why you don't see 317.9 or 318 on the Serebii page or any page. Second, all of the stat point are multiplied by 1.1 for a beneficial nature, so you would actually have to subtract a FLOORED 63 × 1.1 from the floored 317.9, which would give you 248.

Then you realize that the difference between 248 and the 304 we want to reach is 56 stat points...but we must find the whole number that will give us 56 when divided by 4 (4 EVs per stat point), multiplied by 1.1 (beneficial nature), and then floored. That number is 204 / 4 = 51, not 200 / 4 = 50. 51 × 1.1 = 56.1, which is 56 floored. 50 × 1.1 would give us 55, and 52 × 1.1 would give us 57.2, which is 57 floored. Only 51 gives us the number we need. The real number is 50.90 repeating, but as I've stated, everything must be floored, so 50 doesnt cut it but 51 does.

If you're confused, you probably should be, as this is a needlessly convoluted way of calculating stats. At any rate, I don't know where you got the idea that you would be allowed to subtract 63 points straight up from a multiplied number, as doing so breaks one of the first rules you learn about multiplication and addition in like third grade. If you multiplied the whole sum, (226+51) × 1.1 = 304 floored, you have to divide the whole sum before subtracting anything.
 
he should´ve substracted the 63 points from the neutral nature max on serebii, 289... 289 - 63 = 226, nature is applied at the end, after you calculate EVs, you know that 304 speed is 277 with a positive nature, so 277 - 226 = 51 stat points, 51 * 4 = 204 EVs
 
Jumpy you took my post entirely the wrong way :\. I posted (post#3) saying that I did not in anyway mean to contest the analysis, or assume I have more knowledge than Aeolus. On the contrary, I didn't contest any other parts of the analysis because I thought it was fine. The leftovers and the attack/hp EV's though got NO mention. Nowhere does it list why he chose leftovers on a pokemon which (due to typing and slanted defensive stats) is normally one-two hit killed. Nowhere does it say anything close to why he speced 174 atk EV's. I tested calculations myself (sans the forum guidelines) and couldnt come up with any scenario where 174 was special. i'm not saying it isn't, im not contesting it is. I'm saying _I_ don't see why, and asking if anyone can clear it up for me.

Really I just didn't understand his EV spread and item selection. It wasn't outlined at all (speed was the only thing touched) and because of that I was wondering where he got his numbers from. If the analysis had mentioned somewhere WHY he chose leftovers or WHY he distributed the remaing EV's (aside from speed) they way he did, I would've said nothing. I understand the analysis is old, and I know everyone makes typos (such as I and Darkspectrum made with the speed EV calc.) If I had access to that forum I would've simply posted an "Aeolus care to elaborate on EV spread and item selection?" post on the end like most do as a nitpick.

Again all I was asking was why the spread is like that. I purposely listed at the end of the OP that I was more than happy for someone to point out something I've missed. If Aeolus came in at post #2 and said "because 174atk regularly kills <insert pokemon> which I find to be popular in the metagame" and also listed a reason for leftovers, then I would've posted a reply straight after of "thanks for clearing that up." I didn't want to make a thread calling Aeolus out 'challenging' his build or anything of the sort, I simply wanted more insight to the build because it is (understandably) a bit incomplete/old in areas. Hence I made a general discussion thread instead of a 'call out' towards Aeolus.

(Lastly and least importantly, I've used Leafeon in game for 400~ hours but never over wi-fi or shoddy. I have used other teams regularly, just not with Leafeon. From my experience of the metagame the only things I could theory-craft using leafblade against were TTar and Swampert, hence I simply put forward the question "what else would I want to use it against?". Also although I'm haven't been posting here long, I'm far from new to smogon - but that's an understandable accusation from my post count and the way you interpreted my OP so no offense taken.)

In short: All I was interested in was if anyone has a reason why Leafeon should spec atk EV's or use Leftovers over say Lum Berry without highly specing HP/def. I'd like to be enlightened. That's what this thread is for.
 
the way he did was to reach the possible statistics for leafeon

HP: 303
ATK: 300
DEF: 296
SPA: 140
SPDef: 166
SPEED: 304

so i guess he was shooting for hp, attack, def and speed to reach 300 or more.
 
In short. Its a really nice rounded number to work off for a general set so it basically has something over alot of the base 100's.
 
Every pokemon analysis is really more of a guideline so to be completely honest with you it would have been more appropriate to just PM Aeolus directly and tell him what you thought of the EV spread and suggest a change with support. As far as I can see that's your only complaint besides the item and Leftovers has always been the default option on any pokemon just for the sake of negating sandstorm. If you feel that a Lum Berry suits your battling style better, feel free to use it nobody's stopping you. To me in this case, that's a mundane detail that each individual battler can decide for themselves . Again, a smogon analysis is not law but a recommendation. I do commend you for at least thinking about the analysis rather than just accepting it word for word though.
 
Ranevski said:
Jumpy you took my post entirely the wrong way :\. I posted (post#3) saying that I did not in anyway mean to contest the analysis, or assume I have more knowledge than Aeolus. On the contrary, I didn't contest any other parts of the analysis because I thought it was fine. The leftovers and the attack/hp EV's though got NO mention. Nowhere does it list why he chose leftovers on a pokemon which (due to typing and slanted defensive stats) is normally one-two hit killed. Nowhere does it say anything close to why he speced 174 atk EV's. I tested calculations myself (sans the forum guidelines) and couldnt come up with any scenario where 174 was special. i'm not saying it isn't, im not contesting it is. I'm saying _I_ don't see why, and asking if anyone can clear it up for me.
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Again, you don't "see" it because you have not used Leafeon competitively for the months necessary to be able to come to any sort of rational conclusion. The reason Aeolus was allowed to make a relatively blind assumption is because us members of the DP Analysis Team had to do so for the benefit of the thousands of members of the competitive battling community who want something to start with if they should choose to use Leafeon competitively. I reiterate: no one now has the luxury of being able to make blind statements, since Shoddy battle is a fine tool with which anyone who wishes to challenge the suggestions in our analyses can work.

Why do you think that a pokemon with 304 speed and 130 base defense will be "normally one-two hit killed". You are basing that on assumption and assumption alone, and as I've said, that's inexcusable since we have a decent battling simulator and have had one for months. You take issue with 174 Atk EVs, fine. Go test 174 Atk EVs, and 128, or whatever. Why would you make a thread concerning the EV spread of a pokemon you have not used competitively? By now everyone should be actually using the pokemon in our analyses and then, after having gathered hard, empirical evidence, posting discussion thread. Seriously, anyone can calculate the damage what they *think* are the common pokemon that will be contending with. I was doing that regularly in January. That is not a substitute for actual battle evidence though, especially not now in September when we actually have the means to determine what calculations are even pertinent to the pokemon in question.

Really I just didn't understand his EV spread and item selection. It wasn't outlined at all (speed was the only thing touched) and because of that I was wondering where he got his numbers from. If the analysis had mentioned somewhere WHY he chose leftovers or WHY he distributed the remaing EV's (aside from speed) they way he did, I would've said nothing. I understand the analysis is old, and I know everyone makes typos (such as I and Darkspectrum made with the speed EV calc.) If I had access to that forum I would've simply posted an "Aeolus care to elaborate on EV spread and item selection?" post on the end like most do as a nitpick.
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Again, there is a reason we have hand-picked the members of the DP Analysis team. Can you seriously not imagine how annoying it is for someone with little to no battle experience with the pokemon in question commenting on how he or she thinks x item is bad, or y moveset would work better with z move? Especially when, as many people are wont to forget, these analyses are seriously supposed to be guidelines and not hard-and-fast rules by which we are all forced to abide? And especially now, as I am trying to get across as my main point, that we have a perfectly good way of simulating these battles and rational scenarios, where the authors of the analyses everyone wants to question so much did not, since they were largely crafted in May or beforehand, prior to the notion of a "DP metagame" being a realistic one?

This could all have been solved in a PM to Aeolus, but what I am trying to get across is that this isn't really a discussion thread at all, or not a good one, since now they are encouraged to be based on actual competitive battling evidence, of which you have none as it pertains to Leafeon. It boils down to a simple EV distribution question, which I don't really feel is enough to make a decent discussion thread

Again all I was asking was why the spread is like that. I purposely listed at the end of the OP that I was more than happy for someone to point out something I've missed. If Aeolus came in at post #2 and said "because 174atk regularly kills <insert pokemon> which I find to be popular in the metagame" and also listed a reason for leftovers, then I would've posted a reply straight after of "thanks for clearing that up." I didn't want to make a thread calling Aeolus out 'challenging' his build or anything of the sort, I simply wanted more insight to the build because it is (understandably) a bit incomplete/old in areas. Hence I made a general discussion thread instead of a 'call out' towards Aeolus.
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Again, you could have PMed him, there was really no need for a thread at all. And the larger issue is that most people haven't yet used Leafeon for a period of time that would allow them to make a claim against 174 Atk EVs or Leftovers.

(Lastly and least importantly, I've used Leafeon in game for 400~ hours but never over wi-fi or shoddy. I have used other teams regularly, just not with Leafeon. From my experience of the metagame the only things I could theory-craft using leafblade against were TTar and Swampert, hence I simply put forward the question "what else would I want to use it against?". Also although I'm haven't been posting here long, I'm far from new to smogon - but that's an understandable accusation from my post count and the way you interpreted my OP so no offense taken.)
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I only interpreted your OP as that from a person with no more competitive battling experience with Leafeon than Aeolus had in May, nothing more, and you've just confirmed that. The only assumption I made is that you have never used Leafeon, and besides failing to qualify that I meant competitively, I was right. The answer to your "what else would I want to use it against?" can seriously only come from competitive battling experience, which Aeolus didn't have the luxury of being very privy to in May, and you don't have the excuse of not having if you indeed wanted to make this thread, given it's kind of in the rules for new discussion threads, as I said in my previous post.

In short: All I was interested in was if anyone has a reason why Leafeon should spec atk EV's or use Leftovers over say Lum Berry without highly specing HP/def. I'd like to be enlightened. That's what this thread is for.
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I would say that the only thing that would try to status Leafeon instead of attacking it would be Bronzong, since Cresselia commonly carries Ice Beam and would use that over Thunder Wave, Blissey would generally opt to Ice Beam its poor SpD instead of attempting Sing or Thunder Wave (though it has no real business in on Leafeon anyway), and Weezing would opt to either employ a now-special Sludge Bomb or the Flamethrower/Fire Blast it carries for Heracross instead of trying to WoW Leafeon, but that would be kind of hypocritical since I have never used Leafeon and therefore do not know the pokemon with which it commonly would contend.
 
Ok, I'm glad Jump brought this thread to my attention since I've been going nuts for the past week and haven't had time to browse the pokemon forums.

First, though it has been said numerous times already... the analysis was written in May. While that doesn't excuse shortcomings as I've since had plenty of time to fix them, it does explain them. It is a pretty dick move to make a thread like this nit-picking small details (especially when you are wrong about the speed thing and leftovers) when you could send a PM with your suggestions.

Further, all of your complaints are based off of your assumption that Leaf Blade will only be used on Tyranitar and Swampert... which is simply false.

All that said, I don't believe any of the analyses are perfect... the attack EV number was a plug figure that was a byproduct of "using up what was left over" after I got HP and Speed where I wanted them. I arrived at the number in the following manner:

304 speed was the priority to beat anyone who opts for non +speed Garchomp. I wanted HP to be above 300... somewhere between 301 - 305 specifically for seismic toss... but general durability as well. I elected Leftovers to maintain that S-Toss 4hoko even in the sand. If that isn't important to you, fine... use something else. The rule is "if a specific item doesn't stand out- go with leftovers" That is all that happened here.

The rest of the EV's are really up to personal preference; I chose attack. If I could have listed them in the same fashion as we list moves, I'd have put them in both attack and def and let the player decide. Since the format of the site doesn't allow that, I chose attack because I think it is more useful seeing as he is using swords dance. It was a personal choice; you are free to choose differently... just don't make threads lauding your preferences as the only correct option... especially when you have 6 posts and exhibit no competitive knowledge in your post.
 
Ok seriously guys what's with all the hate? Ok, if I could've done it over I would've just PM'd Aeolus and asked him in private. The reason I didn't is because in his analysis (excuses aside) he flatout didn't explain some of his decisions. This lead me to believe that they were rough guesstimates (which they were, and understandably so) and so I wanted to see what other people had to say about it. Hence the thread. All I was asking for was this;
Aeolus said:
... the attack EV number was a plug figure that was a byproduct of "using up what was left over" after I got HP and Speed where I wanted them. I arrived at the number in the following manner:

304 speed was the priority to beat anyone who opts for non +speed Garchomp. I wanted HP to be above 300... somewhere between 301 - 305 specifically for seismic toss... but general durability as well. I elected Leftovers to maintain that S-Toss 4hoko even in the sand. If that isn't important to you, fine... use something else. The rule is "if a specific item doesn't stand out- go with leftovers" That is all that happened here.

The rest of the EV's are really up to personal preference; I chose attack. If I could have listed them in the same fashion as we list moves, I'd have put them in both attack and def and let the player decide. Since the format of the site doesn't allow that, I chose attack because I think it is more useful seeing as he is using swords dance. It was a personal choice; you are free to choose differently...
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- Thankyou.


Incidentally - Leona, Forsety, and Carl all managed to contribute useful information without being rude. I think that saying stuff like;
Aeolus said:
... just don't make threads lauding your preferences as the only correct option... especially when you have 6 posts and exhibit no competitive knowledge in your post.
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is pretty vindictive when I have clearly
a) Bothered to run the damage calcs for all the most likely scenarios imo.
and
b) Stated EXTREMELY clearly that I was NOT trying to post a new build, and was simply asking for enlightening discussion to take place.
Ranevski said:
Anyway that's what I think. Please enlighten me if there's something I didn't think of or if I'm blind/retarded/stupid.
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I also made no personal attack against Aeolus or his competitive knowledge, rather I simply questioned choices in the analysis which were not explained therein.

The point of this thread was to improve the Leafeon analysis page. Simple as that. Mission accomplished?
 
This lead me to believe that they were rough guesstimates (which they were, and understandably so)
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Wrong again; please read my explanatory post. The speed is precisely calculated as well as the HP number... the rest was put into the stat of my choosing... that is not a "guesstimate" that is how pokemon are EV'ed effectively.

a) Bothered to run the damage calcs for all the most likely scenarios imo.
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You ran damage calcs. on Tyranitar and Swampert. That does not substitute for competitive experience... do not pretend otherwise.
b) Stated EXTREMELY clearly that I was NOT trying to post a new build, and was simply asking for enlightening discussion to take place.
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No, you did not. The title of your thread is "What's with the Leafeon Analysis?" That is automatically combative and not a request for an enlightening discussion.

I also made no personal attack against Aeolus or his competitive knowledge, rather I simply questioned choices in the analysis which were not explained therein.
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I did not attack you either... I just let you know that you went about this the wrong way. As for the explanation, it is a stylistic/judgment call on my part to decide exactly how much detail of explanation I want in the analysis. I opted for conciseness over verbosity. If when reading an analysis you don't understand the choices that were made... you have two options:

1) Accept them blindly... you can be sure they will work just fine as each of the analyses was put through the strictest of peer reviews.

2) Say, "Hmm, I disagree with the choices that were made here; I'm going to do something else". These analyses are not gospel and are not meant to be treated as such. If you want to do something else, do it. If, after actually using the set (instead of thinking about it and doing damage calcs.) you find that that it works especially well... you go ahead and send a PM to a member of the site staff and we'll consider your recommendations. You did not do this and that is why your thread is inappropriate and you received an respectful, negative response from both me and Jumpman16.

That is all.
 
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