OU Why isn`t Charizard OU(Gen 2)?

[morty123]

Maybe im looking at this in a very simple way, but Gen 2 is often defined by stall, slowly wittling down the opponent, and so the famous skarmbliss was formed, a stapple of many ou teams.
Now, im not saying every team OU teams have that, but here is a pokemon that counters/outright destroys both, why is it only BL?

Ofc, bulky waters would often come in, but this gives you an opportunity, with charizard, to almost destroy that bulky water type, or switch in to a suituable counter to the bulky water when your opponent have skarmory/blissey out. Ofc, there is also fast electrics that could come in on a belly drum, but more than likely, whenever skarmbliss is out, you often get an easy switch to a suitable counter, seeing as neither can deal with Charizard at all(Blissey with sing is an exception).

Do i overestimate Charizards raw wall-breaking powers here? I would have thought that beating both the best physical wall and the best special wall on its own would give it OU status?

 

[Heika]

but Gen 2 is often defined by stall,

Not really, offense have been for quite some times on a surge, just to name it but borat team’s variant are an important thing (cloy, exeg, lix, lax, often ggar and a filler), and you could undefinitely argue on which is stronger between offense and stall.

so the famous skarmbliss was formed, a stapple of many ou teams.

Skarm bliss is (or rather used to be) an adv staple, in gsc bliss is not really a great pick, you’ll always see a snorlax for both is offensive and defensive utility, and while bliss defensive utility might be a bit better, its lack of offensive presence makes it a niche pick. (I’m obviously vulgarising here)

here is a pokemon that counters/outright destroys both

As said before bliss is nothing near a staple in gsc, more over, what you could call a staple in gsc stall would be raikou, and raikou is, not to mention other one, a raikou counter. And in offense match up, zard can, in the best case for the zard user, boom on, so it will have a rought time setting up and putting out some work.

bulky waters would often come in, but this gives you an opportunity, with charizard, to almost destroy that bulky water type

As said, the most likely to come in is raikou who just outspeed your charizard, in extreme case you could see some bulky water switching in indeed but with the omni presence of. electric types, pressure water is nearly never an issue

Ofc, there is also fast electrics that could come in on a belly drum, but more than likely, whenever skarmbliss is out, you often get an easy switch to a suitable counter, seeing as neither can deal with Charizard at all(Blissey with sing is an exception).

Indeed electrics are likely to come in and you can get a switch, yet your revealed your zard, and mons just as zapdos could do the same work in forcing in raikou, without revealing your win condition.

Do i overestimate Charizards raw wall-breaking powers here? I would have thought that beating both the best physical wall and the best special wall on its own would give it OU status?

I believe you are mistaking charizard for a wall breaker while it’s more of a late game cleaner (which it does kind of well tho). The main reason for this mistake is quite obvious : you got a totally wrong idea of what the metagame is really like (thinking stall is the only thing), and a totally wrong idea of what stall staples are (bliss is not a staple, like at all)

Though those misconception are undoubtely due to commun gsc prejudice.

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

Charizard is ranked higher in the current viability ranking than some other OU pokémon. While it obviously has some flaws, it can be very effective with the right support. Practically speaking it does not really matter if it is ranked OU or BL because neither can be used in UU and BL is basically not played as a tier (outside of rare room tours) and I think it is mainly ranked BL due to the fact that no one bothers to update the smogon pokédex.

 

[Mr.E]

Charizard is trash and Lavos carries a permanent erection for Charizard for no particular reason.

It just doesn't hit hard enough. Even +2 Marowak with >999 Attack and STAB on its 100-power attack only does ~90% to a lot of things and needs Spikes + sometimes a little help to one-shot stuff. Without STAB, Charizard OHKOs virtually nothing and doesn't come nearly close enough to make it easy to setup with chip damage + Spikes. So here you have a mon that cuts its HP in half just so it can... 2HKO stuff with generic Return and non-STAB Earthquake or whatever. It's gonna get cracked back against unless the opponent's team is all severely weakened already, in which case Charizard may be a better cleaner than most, and it's very easy to take down at 50% HP with Ground as its only notable type resist. On top of that, it's slow enough that your opponent likely has multiple things that at least speedtie if not outspeed it.

 

[Shakur]

Charizard is actually a good pokemon. But it needs some support to knock down ordinary pokemons in the current metagame.
Charizard @ Leftovers
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Rock Slide

Snorlax:
+6 Charizard Earthquake vs. Snorlax: 313-368 (59.8 - 70.3%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Exeggutor:
Charizard Fire Blast Vs. Exeggutor: 359-422 (91.3 - 107.3%) - 46.2% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Machamp:
+6 Charizard Earthquake vs. Machamp: 279-328 (72.8 - 85.6%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Marowak
+6 Charizard Earthquake vs. Marowak: 226-266 (69.9 - 82.3%) - guaranteed 2HKO

Cloyster:
+6 Charizard Rock Slide vs. Cloyster: 236-278 (77.8 - 91.7%) - guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


In addition his speed does not surpass of some pokemons like Raikou, Gengar, zapdos (same speed), starmie.

 

[asbdsp]

People have a lot of hyperbole about Charizard. It seems usable, but takes a lot of setup and team considerations to get something out of it. Going back to Lavos's ranking chart, I think there are mons below it that are better. Jynx, for example, can consistently net you an advantage game after game, and you literally have to do nothing for it, just lead it, or bring it in on a favorable matchup after KO or even double down. Are you going to get anything like that level of consistency out of Charizard? Would you even consider bringing it 2 games in a row? Nah.

On the other hand it's definitely not trash. You need to have a plan that can utilize it as a cleaner. Otherwise the best it can do is break through something before getting koed itself. It's definitely high risk, and a lot of players don't stomach that. But so are the telegraphed low tier exploders like Golem and Muk. I think Charizard is roughly of similar viability.

 

[itsbme]

Charizard is not a bad Pokemon, but very situational due to counters being faster than it (like Raikou) which can cripple it in 1 or two attacks. Taking into account that the purpose for it is normally to BD out the gate, Charizard gets put in check. Its most used set is pretty much the only one you see, so it also lacks element of surprise. Once it comes out you know what’s up, and it’s not hard to deal with it and keep it from functioning. I’m a weirdo though and use a Sunny Day variant, but I just play casually so I wouldn’t count that for anything.

Also like it had been said, even with BD, it fails to OHKO many things which can KO back. So unless you magically get it agilipassed somehow behind a sub (haha no), someone can send in Raikou or Zapdos and it’s done. Also once Charizard is paralyzed or sleeping, it’s pretty much done for unless you Heal Bell it.

Charizard is cool though, and if you hide it until late game saving it to finish off pokes that are asleep and or paralyzed and low enough on HP, it can blow through your opponents roster. But it has enough issues that keep it from being a constant staple and OU.

Don’t be discouraged from using it though if that’s more fun for you. I like trolling with Sunny Day to make people sweat using Thunder. Also I fancy Dynamic Punch because I like messing with people. But respect that Charizard can be easily beat and you’re not going to convince anyone to make it OU.