Why isn't Low Kick on more Rest/Sleep Talk Guts Machamps? Damage Calculations inside!

XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2

I looked through the Analysis and Low Kick isn't mentioned anywhere on the Analysis. I was considering what moves to use on a Guts Machamp to absorb Statuses and hit hard with Rest/Sleep Talk. Close Combat really isn't desirable on a set that's designed to sponge hits, Cross Chop is only 80% accurate (when there's already only a 33.33% chance that you're going to pick it when using Sleep Talk), DynamicPunch is even Worse without No Guard, Brick Break is only 75 Base Power, and Revenge is set-up bait and doesn't hit Switches hard enough.

Then I considered Low Kick and the fact that Grass Knot is often used in OU because of its accuracy and how much most Pokemon weigh in OU. I then came up with this set:

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Machamp@Leftovers/Flame Orb.
Adamant
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Low Kick
- Payback/Stone Edge/Ice Punch

Leftovers if you want more survivability, Flame Orb if you don't want to rely on your opponent giving you a Status. Guts + Life Orb can also be rather fun, just make sure you're only getting Paralyzed or you'll be losing almost a quarter of your HP per turn, and that's BEFORE factoring other stuff like Sandstorm/Hail. Not to mention the actual attack Machamp will be getting hit by. So while it may be fun, Life Orb is generally not recommended.

This set really isn't that that innovative, just uses Low Kick for the Fighting STAB. Keep in mind, though, Guts makes it so that it Low Kick hits harder than No Guard DynamicPunch in all cases where Low Kick's Base Power is higher than 60, and regardless to say, its other attacks also hit harder than the No Guard variants after a Guts boost (Guts Payback and Stone Edge are essentially as strong as a No Guard DynamicPunch). I consider this set as sort of combining the Power of Guts sets with the versatility, survivability, and overall better reliability of the Rest/Sleep Talk set.

Sorry if I haven't tested it yet, but I just came up with it, so I'm going to try and do some damage calculations, please suggest some if you can think up of more, I'm just doing a couple right now as I'm going through the OU list.

So without further adieu:

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DAMAGE CALCULATIONS
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Vs. 252 HP/252 Def +Nature (Max Defense) Bronzong:
Guts Low Kick: 52.66% - 61.83%, 2HKO with Stealth Rock, likely even without.

Vs. 156 HP/100 Def Gyarados (Bulky Gyara) after Intimidate:
Guts Stone Edge: 70.81% - 83.24%, possible OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Vs. 4 HP Gyarados (LO Gyara) after Intimidate:
Guts Payback: 44.58% - 52.41%, 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Hell, LO Gyarados is left with less than 30% after switching into Stealth Rock and Payback anyway, so he can't really switch out and he can only attack 3 more times (except in the 7.7% chance that he survives with more than 30%).

Vs. 216 HP/252 Def Bold Salamence (The rarely-seen BulkyMence listed in the Analysis) after Intimidate:
No Guts Ice Punch: 53.25% - 62.60%
Guts Stone Edge: 52.73% - 62.08%
Guts Ice Punch: 79.74% - 94.03% OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Vs. 120 HP Adamant Salamence (DDMence) after Intimidate:
No Guts Ice Punch: 81.44% - 95.84%, OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Guts Stone Edge: 80.89% - 95.29%, OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Vs. 252 HP/152 Def Impish Hippowdon (Physical Wall Hippowdon listed on the Analysis):
Guts Low Kick: 54.05% - 63.57%, 2HKO after Stealth Rock, likely even without. For fun vs. 252 HP/252 Def Impish Hippowdon, it does 50.00% - 58.81%, so with Stealth Rock, even Max Defense Hippowdon is 2HKO'd by Guts Low Kick.

Vs. 252 HP/152 Def Impish Skarmory (Physical Skarmory listed on the Analysis)
Guts Low Kick: 40.12% - 47.31%. Still hits harder than No Guard DynanicPunch which does 33.23% - 39.22%, and Machamp needs to watch out for Brave Bird anyway, so Close Combat wouldn't really be desirable in this situation. Admittedly, though, the Confusion from DynamicPunch would probably more desirable in this situation.

Vs. 240 HP/76 Def Impish Jirachi (Wish/U-Turn variant in the Analysis):
Guts Payback: 38.15% - 44.89%. It actually does the same amount as No Guard DynamicPunch, though again, without the Confusion, so DynamicPunch would probably be better in this situation.

Vs. 252 HP/252 Def Bold Cresselia:
Guts Payback: 52.25% - 61.49%, 2HKO with Stealth Rock, likely even without.

Vs. 252 HP/136 Def Bold Rotom (Alternate forms, listed in the Platinum Updates section):
Guts Payback: 90.79% - 106.58%, OHKO with Stealth Rock, and most Rotom don't run this much Defense anyway.

Vs. 252 HP/96 Def Impish Forretress (Listed in the Analysis):
Guts Low Kick: 48.87% - 57.63%, 2HKO with Stealth Rock and Leftovers.

Vs. 252 HP/252 Def Impish Forretress (Max Defense):
Guts Low Kick: 44.07% - 51.98%, 64.3% chance of a 2HKO with Stealth Rock and Leftovers.

Vs. 252 HP/252 Def Impish Gliscor (Max Defense):
Guts Ice Punch: 96.33% - 113.28%, OHKO with Steatlh Rock, likely even without.

Vs. 252 HP/40 Def Metagross (Rest/Sleep Talk Gross listed in the Analysis, and the one with the highest defense):
Guts Low Kick: 57.97% - 68.13%. Since you're gonna be hitting him on the switch, though, DynamicPunch is admittedly better in this situation with its Confusion rate.

Vs. 4 HP Scizor:
Guts Low Kick: 96.45% - 113.48%, OHKO with Stealth Rock, very likely even without.

Vs. 252 HP Scizor:
Guts Low Kick: 79.07% - 93.02%, possible (though admittedly unlikely) OHKO with Stealth Rock. Still, Scizor can't do much to you back.

Vs. 252 HP/252 Bold Suicune (Max Defense):
Guts Low Kick: 44.31% - 52.23%, a good 68.2% chance of a 2HKO with Stealth Rock and Letovers being taken into account. Better than Close Combat in this situation, too, since Machamp would take less from Surf.

vs. 240 HP/216 Def Relaxed Swampert (Mixpert):
Guts Low Kick: 43.39% - 51.12%. Possible (but unlikely) 2HKO with Stealth Rock. This is probably a situation where Close Combat is better, since Relaxed Swampert is slower than Adamant Machamp. It's a definite 2HKO with Stealth Rock on the Adamant versions, though.

Vs. 188 HP/252 Def Bold Vaporeon (Wish Support Vaporeon listed on the Analysis):
Guts Payback or Stone Edge: 39.73% - 46.88%. Fucking annoying Vaporeon. As anyone who uses Grass Knot knows, Vaporeon weighs very little, taking 60 BP damage from Grass Knot and Low Kick. This is one of the situations where Cross Chop is probably the best move to use, doing 59.82% - 70.31%, a solid 2HKO, taking Stealth Rock, Leftovers, and 1 turn of Protect into account, though again it has accuracy issues, which becomes very apparent vs. Substitute versions. Hell, DynamicPunch would probably be better since Confusion h4x rocks. Vaporeon is the only reason you should consider Thunderpunch on Guts Machamp, as well as maybe a more reliable way of dealing with Gyarados. Though really, DynamicPunch does 71.43% - 84.15%, so DynamicPunch is a lot better in this case.

Vs. 252 HP/220 Def Bold Zapdos (Physical Defensive Zapdos listed on the Analysis):
Guts Ice Punch: 58.85% - 69.01%
Guts Stone Edge: 77.86% - 91.67%, OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Guts Low Kick (while Roosting): 46.61% - 54.95%

So sadly in this situation, you're going to have to rely one of your Super Effective moves since Guts Low Kick doesn't beat out Roost+Leftovers. Still, keep in mind, IMO, this set is a bit out of date. Adamant 252 Speed Lucario outspeeds this Zapdos and can guarantee a OHKO on this Zapdos with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock. So, let's see what happens against a typical Zapdos you'd see designed to take down Adamant Lucario:

Vs. 252 HP/180 Def Timid Zapdos (Zapdos designed to outspeed Adamant Lucario):
Guts Ice Punch: 66.93% - 78.91%, a possible OHKO with Stealth Rock, and easily done if it's taken more than 8% risidual damage.
Guts Low Kick (while it's Roosting): 53.13% - 62.50%. Sadly, still no guarantee of beating out Roost + Leftovers.

'course, Jolly Lucario can still outspeed that Zapdos and OHKO. So let's see what happens against a Zapdos designed to outspeed Jolly Lucario:

Vs. 252 HP/80 Def Timid Zapdos (Zapdos running enough Speed to outspeed Jolly Lucario, and putting the rest into Defense. Not very uncommon to see some Zapdos running this set these days, and actually it'd be very wise if they did if they aren't already);
Guts Ice Punch: 74.22% - 87.24%. Finally, a very good chance of a OHKO with Stealth Rock.
Guts Low Kick (while Roosting): 59.11% - 69.53%. Finally, it can reliably beat out Roost and Leftovers, so a Guaranteed 2HKO on any Zapdos running enough Speed to outspeed Jolly Lucario. If Machamp couldn't take out Zapdos, now you know that your Jolly Ice Punch Lucario can! And if Lucario was outsped, now you know Machamp can take it down easily!

Vs. 252 HP/252 Def Bold Weezing:
Guts Payback: 34.73% - 40.72%. Huh, guess Weezing has its uses after all. Not to mention Weezing is faster than this Machamp, so it can easily Pain Split to stall him out.

Vs. 252 HP/208 Def Impish Shuckle:
Guts Stone Edge: 59.43% - 70.08%, 2HKO. Shuckle fails at life.

vs. 252 HP Neutral Regirock after 1 Curse:
Guts Low Kick: 65.93% - 77.47%, easy 2HKO, but remember to watch out for Counter.

Vs. 252 HP/96 Def Neutral Spiritomb (Rest/Sleep Talk set in the Analysis):
Guts Stone Edge: 50.99% - 60.20%, 2HKO after Stealth Rock, likely even without.

Vs. 252 HP/252 Def Impish Dusknoir (Max Defense):
Guts Payback: 72.45% - 85.37% on the switch, 37.07% - 43.88% on the following turn (since Machamp is faster). 2HKO with or without Stealth Rock, though it does require prediction.

Vs. 212 HP/252 Def Bold Slowbro (Physical Wall set in the Analysis):
Guts Payback: 64.06% - 75.52% on the switch, 32.81% - 38.54% on the following turn. 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 45.46% chance of a 2HKO without Stealth Rock, again, requires prediction.

Vs. 132 HP Adamant Rhyperior (Subperior set in the Analysis):
No Guts Low Kick: 64.85% - 76.24%.
Guts Low Kick: 97.28% - 114.36%

Vs. 252 HP/252 Def Impish Donphan (Max Defense):
Guts Low Kick: 45.31% - 53.39%, possible 2HKO with rocks. Close Combat is probably better in this situation since it's a sure 2HKO with rocks and Machamp is faster, though Ice Shard might hurt a bit more with lowered defenses.

Vs. 0/0 Kingdra (DD Kingdra)
Guts Low Kick: 72.59% - 85.36%. Close Combat is probably better in this situation since it has a good chance to OHKO with Rocks.
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Comments, thoughts, suggestions? Am I onto something, or am I just grasping at straws?
 
I was trying to explain it to Setrack, I understand this post.

It makes sense. Of all of the fighting moves available on Guts Machamp Dynamic Punch has horrid accuracy, Cross Chop still mediocre, and Close Combat has a terrible side effect for a tanking set. Low Kick makes a lot of sense in this situation.
 
Darth Meanie said:
I was trying to explain it to Setrack, I understand this post.

It makes sense. Of all of the fighting moves available on Guts Machamp Dynamic Punch has horrid accuracy, Cross Chop still mediocre, and Close Combat has a terrible side effect for a tanking set. Low Kick makes a lot of sense in this situation.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see what you're trying to do. Don't forget about Brick Break having low Base Power.

Still, Setrack is just saying his personal preference. I'd perfectly understand someone who'd rather go for the Confusion rate at the exchange of lower power. This topic, however, was made to show that there is an alternative.
 
This is really interesting but I think you should take out the damage calcs for the non fighting moves, as the point of this thread is to try and get the benefits of Low Kick across, where anyone using the standard set already knows about SE/Ice Punch ect. If nothing else, put them in a different section because it is a little mesy right now.

What I would really like to see is comparisions between Low Kick and Close Combat, as Close Combat is what is used most on the Sleep Talker set.
 
ViVi said:
This is really interesting but I think you should take out the damage calcs for the non fighting moves, as the point of this thread is to try and get the benefits of Low Kick across, where anyone using the standard set already knows about SE/Ice Punch ect. If nothing else, put them in a different section because it is a little mesy right now.

What I would really like to see is comparisions between Low Kick and Close Combat, as Close Combat is what is used most on the Sleep Talker set.
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Well, Low Kick's strongest Base Power is 120, so a Guts Close Combat will always either be as strong as or stronger than a Guts Low Kick. Like I said, though, I think Low Kick is more desirable on a tanking set since Close Combat has a secondary effect that's counter-productive to tanking.
 
Ya thats a good point but I was meaning so that we could see exactly how much power we would be losing, so say Im using Low Kick and I lose 10% damage off of something, but if I am 2HKOing it with Low Kick or with CC, Obviously Low Kick is more desireable.

So thats what I was getting at, show everything that CC deals with and show how much power you lose.

Thats the only way I see this set being really usefull is if you still retain most of the 2HKOs.
 
Its about time as all I'm going to say. Low Kick is a perfectly fine option as most of the light shit are those damn psychic pixies anyway.
 
RaikouLover said:
Its about time as all I'm going to say. Low Kick is a perfectly fine option as most of the light shit are those damn psychic pixies anyway.
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Who are all OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by Payback anyway.

ViVi said:
Ya thats a good point but I was meaning so that we could see exactly how much power we would be losing, so say Im using Low Kick and I lose 10% damage off of something, but if I am 2HKOing it with Low Kick or with CC, Obviously Low Kick is more desireable.

So thats what I was getting at, show everything that CC deals with and show how much power you lose.

Thats the only way I see this set being really usefull is if you still retain most of the 2HKOs.
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I've pretty much listed most of the Defensive OU metagame threats already and shown how much Low Kick does to them, but I guess I'll explain it out here:

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You could 2HKO Skarmory with Close Combat, but that's only if it Roosts or Spikes after it switches in thinking it scared you off with Brave Bird, and you SHOULD be scared of Brave Bird since Brave Bird will probably OHKO after your Defense Drops (Brave Bird does a large amount even without the Defense Drops). Though in terms of Damage output, getting one big shot with in with Guts Close Combat is probably better.

You could probably 2HKO Jirachi with Close Combat, but that's only if it doesn't carry Psychic or Zen Headbutt, not to mention you're going to hate Iron Head Flinch4x after Defense drops. You really shouldn't be staying in on Jirachi either way, best move in this case would be a No Guard DynamicPunch confusion and switching out. Though in terms of Damage output, getting one big shot with in with Guts Close Combat is probably better.

Bronzong, you're 2HKOing whether it be with Close Combat or Low Kick, except with Low Kick you aren't left with -2 Defenses and almost forced to switch out if you don't want to die.

Forretress is the same, though you're trading off a definite 2HKO for a 64% chance vs. Max Defense versions (which is a terrible spread to run anyway), but again, you aren't left with -2 Defenses afterward.

Metagross is faster than you, so you really don't want Lowered Defenses against it. It doesn't even need Psychic or Zen Headbutt to do a lot of Damage to you, or Trick to cripple you, you'd probably take a lot from Meteor Mash anyway, not to mention it might decide to just Explode on you after taking so much damage (from either Close Combat or Low Kick), so you shouldn't be staying in against it anyway. Since Low Kick has a BP of 120 vs. Metagross, it really doesn't matter unless Metagross decides to Pursuit you for some odd reason.

You're trading off a Definite OHKO Vs. 252 HP Scizor to a possible OHKO, so that might be something to consider.

Against Suicune, like I said, Low Kick is superior since you'll be taking less from the incoming Surf.

Against Swampert, Close Combat would be better against the Relaxed versions (Definite 2HKO after Stealth Rock and you're faster), though Low Kick is superior against the Adamant versions (Faster than you and will hit you hard with Earthquake if Close Combat lowered your defenses). Not to mention even against Relaxed versions, you're still left with -2 Defenses, so Low Kick is probably overall superior.

Vaporeon takes 71.43% - 84.15% from Guts Close combat, so it's obviously Superior in this situation.
Don't even try to use Close Combat vs. Zapdos.

Against Regirock, Low Kick is a 2HKO anyway, and you probably wont like getting hit with a +1 Earthquake with -1 Defenses, so it's clearly superior.

You're 2HKOing Hippowdon with Close Combat or Low Kick (both hit it for 120 BP), so again, you're probably much better off without -2 Defenses.
 
All these calcs assume that machamp already has some status. why trade being able to pick your attack for slighly better attack. switching into wow and toxic aren't as easy as they used to be.
 
devoninja said:
All these calcs assume that machamp already has some status. why trade being able to pick your attack for slighly better attack. switching into wow and toxic aren't as easy as they used to be.
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Sleep also activates Guts, which is one of main reasons, if not the main reason, to use Guts over No Guard.
 
The comparison between Grass Knot and Low Kick doesn't make any sense at all. Grass Knot is typically used to combat bulky Ground and Water Pokemon who in OU are heavy. Low Kick doesn't have specific targets that happen to often be heavy.

So, basically you have just proven that a +1 Attack Move that typically ranges in 80 - 100 base power will out damage a 100 base power move? I'm not impressed really; this should be rather obvious. I'd rather use Close Combat anyway, the defense drop isn't really much of an issue.

You underestimate the 50% chance to be immobilized each turn; but anyway, Guts Machamp just isn't that useful. If you want to abuse Guts you are better off using something like Heracross.

Also; assuming you haven't been inflicted with a status, DynamicPunch will typically be more useful since the damage is either identical to Low Kick or Low Kick even does worse against it. In the case of heavier things, like Hippowdon, with Rest-Talk No Guard DynamicPunch you will typically beat it 1 on 1 anyway.

By the way, some of your calcs are a little off since you didn't account for Leftovers in your comments about 2HKO's etc. but whatever.
 
Deschain said:
Sleep also activates Guts, which is one of main reasons, if not the main reason, to use Guts over No Guard.
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That's understood but the point is that guts never beats no guard without status and more often than not you'll want to attack at least a couple times before you need to rest. Why use moves that suck while you're awake when you could use no guard and have an almost just as good move while asleep and an awesome move while you're awake. It doesn't add up.
 
Most of your calcs are for Stone Edge, Ice Punch, and Payback anyways, which doesn't say much for Low Kick. Don't list Gyara, Cress, Jirachi, Gliscor, etc getting 2HKOed or OHKOed by other moves when you're trying to push one. It's clearly an attempt to make it sound better than it is.
 
devoninja said:
All these calcs assume that machamp already has some status. why trade being able to pick your attack for slighly better attack. switching into wow and toxic aren't as easy as they used to be.
Click to expand...

You aren't Choice'd you know, you can still pick your attacks. Not to mention Flame Orb is listed as one of the options of items you can carry if you don't want to rely on your Opponent giving you a status.

Caelum said:
The comparison between Grass Knot and Low Kick doesn't make any sense at all. Grass Knot is typically used to combat bulky Ground and Water Pokemon who in OU are heavy. Low Kick doesn't have specific targets that happen to often be heavy.
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Like I said, though, Low Kick is probably preferred on Guts sets for reasons I've already mentioned (Close Combat lowers defenses, DynamicPunch and Cross Chop are inaccurate, Brick Break is weak, your opponent can simply switch out of Revenge). If you have a better alternative, you're free to say it.

Caelum said:
So, basically you have just proven that a +1 Attack Move that typically ranges in 80 - 100 base power will out damage a 100 base power move? I'm not impressed really; this should be rather obvious. I'd rather use Close Combat anyway, the defense drop isn't really much of an issue.
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1671986#post1671986

I've already compared them against Pokemon that matter in that post. Read it and respond to it if you disagree with me. For the times in which both 2HKO, Low Kick is easily preferable if only for the fact that you wont be forced to switch out at great risk of being KO'd due to Defense drops after 2HKOing someone.

Caelum said:
You underestimate the 50% chance to be immobilized each turn; but anyway, Guts Machamp just isn't that useful. If you want to abuse Guts you are better off using something like Heracross.
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Well, the point of this topic was mainly to talk about Guts Machamp, not No Guard Machamp. It does say GUTS Machamp in the topic title, and nowhere do I say that this set is preferable over the No Guard set.

Heracross doesn't even have access to Low Kick, so again it suffers from the problems I already listed between CC, BB, Revenge, and it doesn't even have access to DyPunch, though since it lacks No Guard, it probably wouldn't use it anyway. Not to mention Machamp has that all-important Rock resist, while Heracross doesn't even normally make use of his Fighting resist since the only fighters faster than it are Primeape and Infernape. Primeape is sad as a fighter, and Infernape can just Flamethrower it. Machamp also hits harder and is slightly more sturdier (Better Defense and HP while Heracross has slightly better SpDef, though that's kind of offset by hisFire weakness). Though that Ground resistance does come in handy.

Caelum said:
Also; assuming you haven't been inflicted with a status, DynamicPunch will typically be more useful since the damage is either identical to Low Kick or Low Kick even does worse against it. In the case of heavier things, like Hippowdon, with Rest-Talk No Guard DynamicPunch you will typically beat it 1 on 1 anyway.
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I don't know about you, but to me, a KOing a Pokemon is better than eventually KOing one. Also, Low Kick typically hits for 100 BP in OU anyway, sometimes 120, sometimes 80, they average out. It's the power as DynamicPunch, just with the potentially to be a lot stronger with Guts.

Caelum said:
By the way, some of your calcs are a little off since you didn't account for Leftovers in your comments about 2HKO's etc. but whatever.
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Again, specificlaly point out which ones are wrong and I will address it.

Chimera said:
Most of your calcs are for Stone Edge, Ice Punch, and Payback anyways, which doesn't say much for Low Kick. Don't list Gyara, Cress, Jirachi, Gliscor, etc getting 2HKOed or OHKOed by other moves when you're trying to push one. It's clearly an attempt to make it sound better than it is.
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Vivi already pointed this out, and as soon as he did, I responded in kind: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1671986#post1671986.
 
Olimarman said:
I suppose low kick has its uses, but I'd personally prefer the 100% confusion.
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That's perfectly fine, though I think I'd rather talk more about Guts Machamp than No Guard Machamp in this topic, they're quite different. I mean, the topic DOES say GUTS Machamp, not "This set is better than No Guard Machamp, you should so totally use this set over No Guard Machamp".
 
I guess the point that people are trying to get at is that guts isn't really better for machamp even for sleeptalking. Of course if you still want to discuss guts I will admit that low kick is better than D-punch but I'm not totally convinced it's better than cross chop or close combat.
 
devoninja said:
I guess the point that people are trying to get at is that guts isn't really better for machamp even for sleeptalking. Of course if you still want to discuss guts I will admit that low kick is better than D-punch but I'm not totally convinced it's better than cross chop or close combat.
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Try giving specific reasons rather than just saying that "No, I don't think so".
 
Because you'd rather have the constant base 120 BP of close combat or the critical hit boost for cross chop than inconsistent damage? That's what someone means in this scenario by "I think." They mean that while you can argue for Low Kick, there just aren't enough scenarios where it's clearly better than the other 2. And considering that you are hailing Low Kick damages all when Guts is activated, yes I find it very relevant to bring up the preference people have to No Guard and DynamicPunch
 
Chimera said:
Because you'd rather have the constant base 120 BP of close combat or the critical hit boost for cross chop than inconsistent damage? That's what someone means in this scenario by "I think." They mean that while you can argue for Low Kick, there just aren't enough scenarios where it's clearly better than the other 2. And considering that you are hailing Low Kick damages all when Guts is activated, yes I find it very relevant to bring up the preference people have to No Guard and DynamicPunch
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You realize I was making an example right? Ctrl+F "Think" and you'll find no one really said anything to your effect.

The inconsistent Critical Hits of Cross Chop are negligible without No Guard due to its inconsistent Accuracy. Once again, you keep saying stuff about about how something is preferable, but you still have not pointed out anything specific in your argument in the cases where your options would be considered better, while I have clearly given out many specific examples twice in this topic. Unless you're being specific, all you're saying really amounts to is "Nuh uhh".

You can keep bringing up No Guard Machamp if you want, and I'll keep telling you that I mainly made this topic to talk about Guts Machamp and why Low Kick isn't considered on any of its sets and that's exactly why I specifically pointed out Guts Machamp in the topic title and did not mention how this set was better or worse than the No Guard at all. I compared their power, and obviously Guts is going to be stronger than the No Guard set, but I never said that Guts was any reason to use this over No Guard.
 
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