Any relevant calcs that the Def investment allows it to avoid? The extra SpDef that HP investment provides is useful to allow it to set up. I did put Psyshock as the first option but Thunderbolt does hit Ho-oh a bit harder. I stand by what I said about it only being able to set up once. You are playing with 5 Pokémon until you manage to remove all their Xerneas counters, some of which are very bulky and difficult to take out, unlike Arceus-Ground or CM Ogre for example, who can set up repeatedly over the course of a match.
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Xerneas
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Any relevant calcs that the Def investment allows it to avoid? The extra SpDef that HP investment provides is useful to allow it to set up. I did put Psyshock as the first option but Thunderbolt does hit Ho-oh a bit harder. I stand by what I said about it only being able to set up once. You are playing with 5 Pokémon until you manage to remove all their Xerneas counters, some of which are very bulky and difficult to take out, unlike Arceus-Ground or CM Ogre for example, who can set up repeatedly over the course of a match.
Considering 104 speed necessary, so 152 EVs to put :
Choice Band Scizor 252+ Bullet Punch vs 152HP/0def Xerneas : 341-401 (79,1%-93,0%) - 39,5% chance to OHKO after SR
Choice Band Scizor 252+ Bullet Punch vs 0HP/152def Xerneas : 292-344 (74,3%-87,5%) - never OHKOed after SR
Life Orb Aegislash 252+ Iron Head vs 152HP/0def Xerneas : 436-513 - always OHKO
Life Orb Aegislash 252+ Iron Head vs 0HP/152def Xerneas : 374-440 - 29% chance to survive without SR
Leftovers Aegislash 252+ Iron Head vs 152HP/0def Xerneas : 337-396 (78,2%-91,9%) - 32,1% chance to OHKO after SR
Leftovers Aegislash 252+ Iron Head vs 0HP/152def Xerneas : 289-340 (73,9%-86,9%) - never OHKOed after SR
Well, that's not that impressive, but that's some important facts. I guess the two spreads are viable.
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You're only running 64 speed to outspeed the most relevant threat (scarf chomp) thus you'll have more bulk to work with so the odds of taking a hit will be slightly higher.
Scarf Terrakion shouldn't be forgotten as it is one of the best physical scarfer.
If you run 64 speed then 39,5%=>~30%, 29%=>~37% and 32,1%=>~23% in the calcs, which isn't big changes.
On a side note, isn't HP Fire > Focus Blast in almost every case ? HP Fire is...
- strongest option against Aegislash (70% chance to OHKO 252HP/4SpD under sun !)
- stronger against Scizor and Forretress (even as strong in rain)
- as strong against Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Metagross in neutral weather
And do not forget Focus Blast has shaky accuracy, where HP Fire is reliable.
The only situation where Focus Blast would be better is against steel types under rain and against Heatran ?
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Yeah, Focus Blast stops strategies like switching in Kyogre and then phazing with Skarmory. It also allows you to hit Heatran who otherwise totally walls you. But HP Fire is certainly very viable and might even be the better move for most teams, especially since you can OHKO your number one check in Scizor-(Mega)
How do you people deal with Specially defensive Ho-oh?
Even at +2 I can't kill that thing.
This is what I came up with:
Xerneas@Power Herb
252 Spe/252 Spa/4 Atk
NAIVE
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Rock Slide
Nature: +SPE is necessary over +SPA, in order to outspeed other Xerneas, e.g when sometime me and the opponent use Geomancy at the same turn and the speed is crucial.
Rock Slide is my frustrating answer to those pesky Special Defensive Ho-ohs!
And special defensive Ho-oh is way more common because of Geomancy.
I haven't tested it yet to see if it can deal with them. Are there any calculators for XY out yet?
Even at +2 I can't kill that thing.
This is what I came up with:
Xerneas@Power Herb
252 Spe/252 Spa/4 Atk
NAIVE
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Rock Slide
Nature: +SPE is necessary over +SPA, in order to outspeed other Xerneas, e.g when sometime me and the opponent use Geomancy at the same turn and the speed is crucial.
Rock Slide is my frustrating answer to those pesky Special Defensive Ho-ohs!
And special defensive Ho-oh is way more common because of Geomancy.
I haven't tested it yet to see if it can deal with them. Are there any calculators for XY out yet?
You shouldn't be setting up with xerneas when there's a healthy ho oh with no sr up.
Setting up alongside opposing xerneas is just begging for failure, hence why modest is by far the best nature
So I should just let the other Xerneas setup? My Xerneas would likely not be able to OHKO the other Xerneas and after the other Xerneas has setup I'll lose mine anyway.
You should have a solid way of dealing with Xerneas in the first place.
Yes, but I still don't get why should I not use Geomancy when there's another Xerneas on the field.
(And when that happens +Spe is a true savior)
What should I do in this situation? Switch out to a Xerneas counter? Why not just setup alonside with him and outspeed killing him?
Your Xerneas is also losing significant bulk and power (= general functionality) purely for the ability to win mirror matches which should be rare in the first place. It has no other reason to run anything near max speed, since it needs little investment to outspeed Scarf Pokemon (which are uncommon anyways) and something like Deoxys-S poses no threat anyways.
Also, this is honestly this is poor (or desperate) play on your opponent's part in the first place. Assuming their own Xerneas is not specifically EV'd to outspeed opposing Xerneas, they're essentially going for a 50/50 gamble with one of their Pokemon. There's also always the risk that your opponent is running the same speed investment as you for the same reason.
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252SDef / 4 Def
Calm nature
- Swagger
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
Come in on Geomancy or anything else and then Swagger.
If Xerneas hits you (50% chance to do), it won't OHKO (except HP Fire under sun), and then you can Thunder Wave, giving him only 37,5% chance to hit you next time (18,25% chance to hit you the two times) and make him easy to revenge kill.
If Xerneas doesn't hit you, then use Substitute and Klefki is setted up.
In emergency cases (Klefki is in low health), you can even use priority Thunder Wave to make him food for revenge killing.
PS : It can also set up easily against most stallers, Arceus-Rock, Aegislash...
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252SDef / 4 Def
Calm nature
- Swagger
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
Come in on Geomancy or anything else and then Swagger.
If Xerneas hits you (50% chance to do), it won't OHKO (except HP Fire under sun), and then you can Thunder Wave, giving him only 37,5% chance to hit you next time (18,25% chance to hit you the two times) and make him easy to revenge kill.
If Xerneas doesn't hit you, then use Substitute and Klefki is setted up.
In emergency cases (Klefki is in low health), you can even use priority Thunder Wave to make him food for revenge killing.
PS : It can also set up easily against most stallers, Arceus-Rock, Aegislash...
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You forget that Fairy doesn't resist itself.
Edit: Wait, you're talking about Klefki, not Xerneas. I thought you were talking about the whole "Geomancy wars" thing.
Steel resist Fairy typing and with this investment Klefki takes 42.19% - 49.69% damage from +2 Modest Moonblast. While at best Xerneas can deal 71,25% - 84,38% with HP Fire or HP Ground. This hurts, but with luck you can beat Xerneas 1on1 and you can afford to take hit once if he is lucky and win against hax.
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I never said it's better than Aegislash, because it's not (and why would they be even compared ? Different typings and different roles on team BTW as Klefki technically can only status and throw hazards, while Aegislash is mostly bulky pivot which can hit hard as well). Anyway I wouldn't use Klefki myself on any Ubers teams honestly, but fact is that he can check Xerneas, which simple math prove. It's good annoyer, but still annoyer. His stats, while passable in OU (and still underwhelming there as well), in Ubers are just really weak. And he misses one really crucial thing - Taunt. Is it not hard to set-up on it, as long as you have the way to ignore at least one of his status moves (confusion or paralysis). Groudon sounds good for example, relying on Swagger hax to stop Groudon (which can be fatal, he LOVES that additional attack) is generally something good player shouldn't rely on. Or Refresh CM Arceus Forms, which can use this guy as free set-up.
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Klefki is still outclassed by aegislash as an xerneas check as it doesn't rely on hax and can be more offensive. The only thing klefki has going for it is the ability to spread t-waves with prankster imo.
Offensive Groudon coming in on a subbed Klefki (substitute on Groudon switching in) or on Swagger has only one way to beat Klefki : getting out of confusion without ever hurting himself. And this have only about 20% chance to happen. Defensive Groudon won't fear this thing too much but wouldn't be able to use the +2 boost too much anyway. But yeah, you should think twice if you decide to face Groudon with Klefki.
Anyway, don't use this Klefki as a Pokémon that should sweep the whole opponent's team (yes, multiple things can check it, but this is the case for every Pokémon in the game). This is checking Xerneas and many stallers, doing a really similar job than the one Aegislash is having with its Toxic/Gyro Ball/Sneak/KS set, so you can and you should just use it the same way. While Klefki is an annoyer, it is so dangerous when behind a sub that almost nothing will have the chance to stat up. Just don't get over-confident when you use this.
Moreover, priority Thunder Wave is a really useful emergency move, especially when you don't have a scarfer in your team and you have strong but slow ubers such as band Ho-oh.
Aren't the calcs vs Aegislash moot since most use Shadow Sneak, and can therefore 2hko with an iron head+ sneak combo?
Just my two cents.
Shadow Sneak is awfully weak, and is being used less and less for that reason.
Really though, I dislike both of those sets, at least as far as checking Xerneas goes. Life Orb recoil is very risky on a Pokemon that has no recovery and does not take boosted hits from Xerneas well. Essentially, it can serve no other purpose than checking Xerneas (unless your opponent is not using Xerneas) since you cannot afford to let it take damage before checking Xerneas, and it will be close to KO'd after checking Xerneas (at which point almost anything outspeeds and KOs, while Aegislash can only use a weak priority move in return).
As for a Leftovers set, Attack investment simply is not worth it. It should maximize its bulk and use Gyro Ball, which will usually OHKO a Xerneas after it has set up anyways.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Xerneas: 72-85 (18.3 - 21.6%)
Even non-LO sets would deal enough damage to successfully counter after a Geomancy with an Iron Head + SS combo. Plus I would think Shadow Sneak would have some utility in picking off weakened Pokes, especially ones who are weak to Ghost (Mewtwo, all forms of Deoxys, Giratina if it's weak enough). But Gyro ball seems like a viable option too.
Even non-LO sets would deal enough damage to successfully counter after a Geomancy with an Iron Head + SS combo. Plus I would think Shadow Sneak would have some utility in picking off weakened Pokes, especially ones who are weak to Ghost (Mewtwo, all forms of Deoxys, Giratina if it's weak enough). But Gyro ball seems like a viable option too.
Do you realize how weak that sounds? Giras outspeed and have Will o wisp. Mewtwo X turns aegis into little more than set up bait, Deoxys wouldn't be staying in on aegis in the first place. Overall aegis is a horrible answer to all those mons bar xern but no competent user would try to setup geomancy with a healthy aegis on the opposing team
I'm not saying Shadow Sneak is supposed to one shot them, I merely said it has utility in cleaning up weakened Pokes, especially those who have ghost weaknesses. I'm not saying to use Aegis as a counter to mewtwo. And if Aegis deters the opponent from setting up with Xerneas then I would say he does his job successfully, no? We were debating the merit of Aegislash being a Xerneas counter.
Hey, think this guy could use a scarf or a specs set to help out another sweeper or something? After all everyone will think Geomancy when it shows its face in team preview.
Not sure how a specs set will work out but Choice Scarf has its merits. Being able to revenge kill both Mewtwo formes (Megahorn/Moonblast), outrunning most Scarfers, along with being able to kill the usual revenging targets (Rayquaza, Darkrai, Lati@s, etc) means that it can patch a lot of holes.
A Specs set would probably be a little underwhelming, non-Geomancy sets usually like to take advantage of its mixed attacking ability and/or access to Aromatherapy. Some players have successfully used Life Orb or Expert Belt sets for wallbreaking power and surprise factor.
In my experience fighting against Xerneas (at least those that use Geomancy), paralysis is it's major boon. I think Substitute is a must for almost any Xerneas that uses Geomancy. Without Focus Blast, there's really not much it can do to a Ferrothorh, while Ferrothorn can OHKO with Gyro Ball after setting up Stealth Rocks.
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