XY OU Analysis Reservation Index - READ CAREFULLY (MAKING A NEW THREAD)

[Fuzznip]

Actually, I'd like to know what others think about Darmanitan. Despite the lack of everlasting sun, there isn't everlasting rain now. Also, I wouldn't say that it's outclassed by Infernape, as they're quite different in their playstyles. Darmanitan is mad strong with its STAB Flare Blitz backed up by a base 140 Attack, has workable coverage moves and U-turn, and is bulkier. I mean, it's strong enough to the extent that Flare Blitz can be spammed, but it has the moves to deal with the likes of Heatran and Slowbro if they're in play. Its Stealth Rock weakness is a bit of a turnoff, but Defog is easy to come by so that's more or less a non-issue. It's also fast enough to make good use of a Life Orb/Choice Band set, rather than relying on Choice Scarf, and literally obliterating everything with Flare Blitz (2HKOes 252/252+ Rotom-W). It basically 2HKOs or OHKOs the entire metagame, which is pretty impressive.

Thoughts?

 

[alexwolf]

Darmanitan is perfectly viable. LO all out attacker can't be walled, and Scarf is scary on sun teams while outspeeding a ton of stuff. Yeah sun teams are not that good anymore, but they are still viable, and due to rain not being so common you can even use LO Darmanitan on a weatherless team. LO Darmanitan is unwallable outside of Slowbro:

- 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 224-265 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Or 2HKO with just 15% previous damage and SR up. Or use Adamant, which has a 58.2% chance to 2HKO after SR.
- -1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 199-234 (52 - 61.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 182-214 (50.8 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 276-325 (92.6 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
- 252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 231-273 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Jukain]

I say yes to Darmanitan as well.

 

[ColtCababa]

Hm, really? I suppose it's enormous Atk has to be taken into account, and it's raw power simply cannot be underestimated:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 218-260 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 179-212 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 120 HP / 100 Def Gyarados: 211-250 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 432-510 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It 2HKOs things that Infernape would beg to be able to, so that's a major plus for it.

 

[Swamp Link]

Yeah, I think Darmanitan is viable. It's by far the strongest Fire-type, and that does get it KO's that Talonflame and MegaZard X and the like don't get, so it's a good wallbreaker. Speed isn't awful either.

 

[dragonuser]

Tornadus-T is done

 

[Liquidocelot]

I would like to Nominate but not take MIENSHAO for a analysis. There is multiple reasons for this and i will explain why. First of all the combination of regenerator and u-turn is exclusive to it and tornadus-t Which makes it a extremely good pivot and a amazing spot on volt turn teams. Mienshao also has a great stab in fighting and high jump kick which can be boosted to obscene levels by reckless. Furthermore knock off's buff helps it get past its biggest counters last gen ghost types and makes them more wary of witching into a predicted high jump kick. The icing on the cake though is the ability to beat the mega zards 100% of the time with fake out + stone edge preventing them from mega evolving into the wrong one and taking away the suprise factor and then outspeeding and koing the mega with its nice 205 speed stat and stone edge.

 

[trc]

I know it's both late, and to some probably stupid, but I would like to propose the Charizard X and Charizard Y analyses to be merged. They were initially, but then they got separated. I was never comfortable with this because, while they play in different ways, they are essentially the same pokemon relying on a specific item to be different from a set with a different item. A physical mega lucario and a special one don't have different sets; why should Charizard? It uses it's item to fulfill a role, it could use a different item to fulfill a seperate role, but it is still he same Pokemon. In the way that a mawile analysis is not separated from a mega mawile analysis due to the item it runs being the reason to use, the same applies to Charizard; its different sets play differently, but they are built around an item used by one pokemon. Therefore, I believe it should be merged into one analysis of Charizard. It's not a matter of size, DPP Jirachi proves that amount of sets isn't an issue, so I really don't see why they are separated.

 

[Fuzznip]

I know it's both late, and to some probably stupid, but I would like to propose the Charizard X and Charizard Y analyses to be merged. They were initially, but then they got separated. I was never comfortable with this because, while they play in different ways, they are essentially the same pokemon relying on a specific item to be different from a set with a different item. A physical mega lucario and a special one don't have different sets; why should Charizard? It uses it's item to fulfill a role, it could use a different item to fulfill a seperate role, but it is still he same Pokemon. In the way that a mawile analysis is not separated from a mega mawile analysis due to the item it runs being the reason to use, the same applies to Charizard; its different sets play differently, but they are built around an item used by one pokemon. Therefore, I believe it should be merged into one analysis of Charizard. It's not a matter of size, DPP Jirachi proves that amount of sets isn't an issue, so I really don't see why they are separated.

They're still entirely different Pokemon. That's why they are separated. I understand that Mega Lucario can run a special or physical set, but they are the same Pokemon. When you're considering two different stat spreads, typing, playstyle, and teammates, then you should probably separate them for cleanliness sake. Otherwise, the analysis will be riddled with "this beats Charizard-X, but not Charizard-Y so be careful" or "this can be used on Charizard-Y but not Charizard-X." It just becomes a gigantic mess that can be prevented with this separation, which is why I requested it.

 

[Swamp Link]

I support Mienshao, it's fast and strong, and Regenerator + U-turn is a nice niche for a Fighting-type. The Knock Off buff improved it a lot too. Although the set that Liquidocelot proposed has to drop one of those 5 moves, probably slashing Fake Out and Stone Edge since people tend to not lead with their Charizard.
But I'm also using this post to make cases for all of the pokemon that have not been given analyses that I think should. I'm not extremely attached to all of them, but I think they have some sort of role in OU. Just going to make the basic argument now, I can supply replays or go more in depth later if you like.
Venomoth - Best Quiver Passer, Sleep Powder nerf hurt it, but nothing else can pull off Sleep + Quiver Dance + Baton Pass, and lots of things like getting those boosts. Quiver Dance + Tinted Lens is also an offensive niche.
Raikou - Still really fast and fairly strong, SubCM can set up on stuff like Rotom-W, is a decent choice user
Empoleon - Good special bulk and defensive typing, Defog user that resists Stealth Rock, can viably run both Defog and Stealth Rock on the same set, which very few other pokemon can do, SubPetaya is still decent and resists most priority
Yanmega - Speed Boost gives it a niche in and of itself, good Special Attack and Speed to go with it, Specs Tinted Lens breaks walls really easily
Froslass - Suicide Spiker that can spinblock for itself and Taunt to stop Defog
Uxie - Dual Screens + Memento/U-turn, can help offensive teams
Shaymin - Good stats all around, Seed Flare is a great move, although it does struggle with all the 4x resists going around, it can carry stuff like Earth Power for Heatran
Stoutland - Works as a revenge killer and cleaner on sand teams, good enough Attack stat and bulk that it isn't dead weight if sand isn't up
Escavalier - Good user of Assault Vest, buffs to Knock Off and Overcoat, access to Drill Run, ability to Pursuit trap many Ghosts and Psychics make it pretty effective in my opinion

 

[Timpsu]

If making cases for Pokemon, there needs to more bulk in reasoning. Just the fact that a Pokemon has a niche does not mean it should get an official analysis. Even if a Pokemon does not have an analysis, it does not mean it has no use in OU environment. It just means that the niche it fills is so small, that most teams will go fine without them, and that they are not threats that should be explicitly analysed. That is why if you are making a case for Pokemon, it is recommended to support your case with more evidence, preferrably some in-battle material about how invaluable the Pokemon has been, and if that niche could be considered strong enough to do a full analysis on Pokemon (for example, see the length Jukain went to get some love for Weezing). If you just lump Pokemon like that on a list, no one will take your arguments seriously, and if the Pokemon hasn't gotten an OU analysis last gen, it will hardly get one based on just that.

Last gen, Yanmega, Uxie and Escavalier had no OU analyses. If you think they should get one, you need to show what has changed in the OU metagame that this Pokemon could be considered OU material. In my opinion, Escavalier has a chance of getting an OU analysis, but u need to have more bulk in your reasoning to convince people of Esca's usefulness. Yanmega and Uxie are more or less the same Pokemon, and it's hard for me to see how they perform better this gen comparing to the last one. Also, when trying to promote Pokemon, make sure your arguments and reasoning are as sound as possible, so that your case doesn't fall because you couldn't get your thoughts across. Venomoth is by no means the only QuiverPasser. Smeargle can do it too, and Masquerain also has the combination(minus the sleep-inducing move). You need to show how Venomoth fares better than the last two, and why QuiverPassing should be considered an OU-viable strategy. Froslass' niche of being the only hazard setter that can spinblock has been reduced with Defog. If you think Froslass is still OU-viable, you need to be more vocal on what Froslass has on Defog-users. These are just a few examples, but you get my point. It's better to handle one Pokemon at a time, so you can have a better chance of defending your point of view.

 

[ColtCababa]

Escavalier's viability is fairly reasonable, and actually, it does already have an analysis.

 

[Swamp Link]

I see, Escavalier just wasn't in the OP.
The main reasons that I didn't write out all the reasoning is that I expected people to be fairly familiar with the argument for them so it was more raising the question as to whether they deserved one rather than trying to change opinion. And I do expect to defend them more, I was just trying to start a discussion. But thank you for calling me out about that, I'll try to give a much more in-depth argument for each pokemon if/when requested.

 

[trc]

Meh, I support Froslass too. Yes Defog sucks, but it's a good substitute to Deo-S on HO for teams that appreciate its Destiny Bond so it can guarantee hazards and a kill. It's fast, has Taunt, has some offensive presence yet is less frail than Deo-S.

 

[Timpsu]

The reason I wrote so extensively is that I secretly hope you could be able to bring some viable, unexpected new Pokemon on OU-field. I'm always cheering for the underdogs, and I'm all for variety, rather than seeing the same old Pokes day and day out. Looking forward for your cases ^^

 

[trc]

With Fuzznip's permission, I would like to reserve Blissey.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I'd actually support re-merging the Charizard analyses. I know there's an issue of the two Mega forms playing differently, but will this really be that much of a hassle? The individual sets would be set up just as they are now, so the various move/item/EV/teammate options for one Mega form would still stand regardless of the other form as long as the other form has no relevance on a certain set. In other words, when a set is dedicated to one form performing a specific function (i.e. Mega Charizard X's Dragon Dance set), then there's no reason to include mentions of the other Mega form since it would be completely irrelevant. The only place this would be a real hassle is in the Checks and Counters section, but why don't we just split that section into two subsections for the individual Mega forms? It wouldn't be the first time we've made a custom section for a Pokemon; Zoroark's 5th Gen OU analysis had a whole section dedicated to managing team preview with Illusion, and seeing as how Charizard is the only Pokemon in the standard metagame that has two Mega forms, special treatment with the split Checks and Counters section could easily be justified. Besides that section, a merge of what we have now seems pretty seamless outside of a more general Overview and combined Other Options.

 

[PichuFTW]

I would like to reserve Chansey and Ferrothorn.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'd actually support re-merging the Charizard analyses. I know there's an issue of the two Mega forms playing differently, but will this really be that much of a hassle? The individual sets would be set up just as they are now, so the various move/item/EV/teammate options for one Mega form would still stand regardless of the other form as long as the other form has no relevance on a certain set. In other words, when a set is dedicated to one form performing a specific function (i.e. Mega Charizard X's Dragon Dance set), then there's no reason to include mentions of the other Mega form since it would be completely irrelevant. The only place this would be a real hassle is in the Checks and Counters section, but why don't we just split that section into two subsections for the individual Mega forms? It wouldn't be the first time we've made a custom section for a Pokemon; Zoroark's 5th Gen OU analysis had a whole section dedicated to managing team preview with Illusion, and seeing as how Charizard is the only Pokemon in the standard metagame that has two Mega forms, special treatment with the split Checks and Counters section could easily be justified. Besides that section, a merge of what we have now seems pretty seamless outside of a more general Overview and combined Other Options.

I still don't even see the issue with keeping them separate. Talking about two different Pokemon in one analysis isn't particularly logical, it makes more sense to separate them to make it an easier read. Not only does it make the Checks and Counters section a hassle, it makes the Overview a hassle as well, since, again, you have to describe two entirely different Pokemon. Why do people oppose the separate so much?

 

[CyclicCompound]

I think the sets should stay fully separate. The way I see it, Mega Charizard Y and Mega Charizard X are as far apart as any other Pokemon with more than one forme. Other Pokemon like Arceus, Deoxys, Rotom, Landorus/Thundurus/Tornadus, and Shaymin get different analyses based entirely on the fact that their formes are too different or difficult to condense into a single page. Why shouldn't Charizard? The two evolutions are completely different, even more different than some of the Pokemon mentioned above. They have different typings, different roles, different checks and counters, and different teammates, and the fact that they're in the same tier or that they start out as the same Pokemon is totally irrelevant to the fact that the two MegaEvos simply have too many differences to be on the same page.

Think about it this way: if you're asking why Pokemon like Scizor or Tyranitar have multiple formes on the same page, it's because they still have the same basic playstyles and same basic checks and counters. At the end of the day, both Mega Scizor and Mega Tyranitar are basically countered by the same things as regular Scizor and Tyranitar. No other Pokemon with multiple formes on the same analysis even come close to being as different as Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y are. Like Fuzznip said multiple times, it's too much of a hassle to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

 

[trc]

I think the sets should stay fully separate. The way I see it, Mega Charizard Y and Mega Charizard X are as far apart as any other Pokemon with more than one forme. Other Pokemon like Arceus, Deoxys, Rotom, Landorus/Thundurus/Tornadus, and Shaymin get different analyses based entirely on the fact that their formes are too different or difficult to condense into a single page. Why shouldn't Charizard? The two evolutions are completely different, even more different than some of the Pokemon mentioned above. They have different typings, different roles, different checks and counters, and different teammates, and the fact that they're in the same tier or that they start out as the same Pokemon is totally irrelevant to the fact that the two MegaEvos simply have too many differences to be on the same page.

Think about it this way: if you're asking why Pokemon like Scizor or Tyranitar have multiple formes on the same page, it's because they still have the same basic playstyles and same basic checks and counters. At the end of the day, both Mega Scizor and Mega Tyranitar are basically countered by the same things as regular Scizor and Tyranitar. No other Pokemon with multiple formes on the same analysis even come close to being as different as Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y are. Like Fuzznip said multiple times, it's too much of a hassle to solve a problem that doesn't really exist.

The reason why all of the above Pokemon have separate analyses is because they are form changes that occur outside of battle; you can enter the battle in that new form. The Mega Charizard X and Y are the same Pokemon, they way Scizor is a Pokemon, then divided into sets that play differently, because the form change is in battle. You hypothetically could be either form, either set. Take Kingdra, the main counters of its first set, Azumarill and Ferrothorn, are eliminated by its second set. while it seems like hassle, is it really? The overview can mention its versatilty, that it can go physical or special, that it is weak to SR and one of its Mega Formes is 4x weak. It's not too hard.

 

[phantom]

They're completely different types, play differently in every way, have different checks, have different options they could use, and different strengths and weaknesses (for the most part). They're different Pokemon, that's why they're split. I really don't get the point of merging them together. The Kingdra comparison is hardly relevant because it doesn't change types when it uses focus energy nor does its play style dramatically change, i.e. it's still spamming the same attacks, and the checks are at least somewhat similar. I also don't understand why it's deemed a hassle... Aside from the Overview, you're putting in the same work regardless of the split. I get that people are asking, "what's the point of separating them", but then I ask, "why not"? Whatever complications arise from doing so are inconsequential at best.

 

[Swamp Link]

Just my two cents, one of the strengths of Charizard as a pokemon in general is that it can run different sets from either side of the spectrum and punish you if you expect the wrong one and switch Landorus-T into Fire Blast or something similar on that first turn. The fact that both are tiered together also lends merit to merging them from the standpoint of precedent, but keeping them separate could easily be more convenient for someone trying to use the analyses. Overall I don't think either way will cause any problems, but there's no real benefit to be gained from merging them, so why bother?

 

[Gary]

Yeah just keep them separated, otherwise the overview would be humongous, the checks and counters would be all over the place, and the analysis would just be a huge clusterfuck in general because both are just so different from each other. I understand that something like this hasn't really been done before and it seems impractical to treat one Pokemon like it's two separate Pokemon, but honestly, they are basically so different from each other that putting them in one analysis would be more confusing than separating them. Besides, Charizard has no niche in OU outside of its Megas, so it's not like it the Pokemon itself needs to get any special mentions in the analysis. So yeah, Charizard should be treated as if it was two completely separate Pokemon, and thus get two different analysis for both Megas.

 

[Fuzznip]

The following users have 24 hours to post their skeletons:

Diggursby - TheCanadianWifier
Zoroark - Katakiri

OP should be updated too.