Other XY OU Pokemon of the Week #3: Suicune

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The XY OU Pokemon of the Week is an (obviously) weekly project I will be doing in the Overused forum. The idea originated from when I was reading many of the discussion threads, often the discussion is a bit lacking in the content department. My goal here to is to highlight a threat in the metagame that isn't as well known, or isn't used as much as it should be, and provide a concise amount of information about that Pokemon; this will encourage creativity during teambuilding, and it will also provide an instant wealth of knowledge about that particular threat. This will hopefully be more helpful to the massive influx of new players in the OU subforum and promote better discussion within the individual threads. In this thread though, the main point of discussion should be about experiences with that particular Pokemon and the sets featured, and how it has helped in some way during your battling. Niche sets and gimmicks can be mentioned as well, but bear in mind that this thread is mainly an informative source of knowledge through what is written in the OP; discussion is not its main focus, though it is most certainly allowed. I need to make this point clear. Think of this like an article introducing you to a new threat that you can use; and try it out! Oh yeah, you can also VM me what you think the next POTW should be, bearing in mind that they will be on lesser-used threats, such as Chesnaught, Krookodile, or Cofagrigus.


This week's Pokemon of the Week is Suicune.


Suicune
Type: Water
Base Stats: 100 HP / 75 Atk / 115 Def / 90 SpA / 115 SpD / 85 Spe
Ability: Pressure / Water Absorb (Unreleased)
Suicune has been known since the days of ADV as an excellent sweeper, and while it has fallen from grace in the past few generations, it is still a force to be reckoned with. It's typing is great defensively and offensively, being able to hit at lest neutrally most Pokemon in OU. it also has incredible mixed bulk, giving it ease in setting up against a lot of different foes. It also possesses access to both Calm Mind and Roar, as well as Rest, Sleep Talk, and Scald, which contribute to Suicune's most popular set, CroCune, which has been around since ADV, as mentioned before.

However, Suicune does face competition from other bulky Calm Mind users such as Reuniclus, Latias, and Jirachi, which often have better coverage or a superior typings, and a fast-paced metagame such as XY often means that Suicune struggles to set up against a lot of the new offensive foes which are stronger than ever. This is also exacerbated by Suicune's poor Speed and initial lack of power.


Suicune @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Nature: Bold
Ability: Pressure
-Calm Mind
-Scald
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

This set has been known since ADV as CroCune, due to Cromat, the user who popularized it. An acronym used to remember the set is Calm Mind Rest Offensive Suicune. The aim of this set is a sweep, and with the use of Calm Mind, Suicune can boost its offensive power and Special Defense at the same time, which means it is incredibly hard to break through on the special side after a few boosts, and already fairly bulky on the physical side due to its impressive stat spread. Scald is used as the sole attacking move on the set as it allows Suicune to break past some Pokemon that are resistant to the Water-type that could otherwise set up on it easily. By crippling them with a burn, they will not only be worn down more easily, but they will also lose a lot of their attacking power. This is especially relevant for Pokemon such as Dragonite and Mega Gyarados. Rest is Suicune's way of recovering health lost while it boosts, while Sleep Talk allows Suicune to use any of its other three moves while it is asleep from Rest; this lets it either obtain more boosts or deal damage with Scald. Leftovers is great for Suicune as it gives it passive recovery while it boosts, which means it doesn't have to use Rest quite as often. The EV spread in conjunction with a Bold nature fully invests in Suicune's effective Defense, as Suicune will be boosting its Special Defense already with Calm Mind. CroCune works best as a late-game sweeper, after its checks have been removed. This is usually relevant for most sweepers, but it is especially important for Suicune as it only has mono-Water-type coverage, which means Pokemon immune to the Water-type can completely wall Suicune.

Suicune can function as a shuffler with Sleep Talk, Calm Mind, Surf, and Roar, but this loses out on recovery which means that Suicune can not last as long as it would usually. It can funtion as a bulky sweeper with Life Orb, with Surf, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Electric, and Calm Mind, which usually runs an offensive EV spread. Finally, Tailwind is a unique option to boost the Speed of Suicune's teammates.

A Pokemon that can learn Pursuit makes for a great teammate, as they can eliminate Jellicent and Celebi, two of Suicune's checks. Scizor, Tyranitar, Weavile, Bisharp, and Aegislash can all learn Pursuit, and Scizor can also hit Celebi hard with U-turn, while Weavile can revenge it with Ice Shard. Bear in mind that the sand that Tyranitar brings is heavily detrimental to Suicune. Toxic Spikes are also incredibly helpful for Suicune's sweep, as they can wear down Suicune's biggest counters; Jellicent, Blissey, and Quagsire are just 3 examples of Pokemon that take pittance from Scald (or in Jellicen't case, are immune to it), and can simply recover off the damage. However, they are worn down swiftly by Toxic Poison. Finally, Heal Bell and Aromatherapy support is nice for when Suicune has to switch out while asleep, and it would like to switch back in again, awake and ready to set up more Calm Mind boosts.

Pokemon that are immune to the Water-type completely wall Suicune, as it know way of effectively dealing with them on its own. However, they can't really do anything to Suicune either, which leads the matchup into a stall war. If you are looking for a more reliable counter, Celebi can sponge Suicune's Scald, doesn't mind a burn due to Natural Cure, can use Leech Seed to wear Suicune down while also gaining a fair amount of health in the process, or simply just use Perish Song to put an end to Suicune's sweep. Clefable and Quagsire can ignore Suicune's attacking moves even on offensive sets, as their ability Unaware enables them to ignore Calm Mind boosts. Kyurem-B can simply 2HKO Suicune with Fusion Bolt. Users of phazing moves such as Roar and Whirlwind can get rid of Suicune's boosts and effectively get rid of it, while also possible ensuring it is asleep when it enters again, but this doesn't really deal with it, it just "makes it go away". Finally, Thundurus deserves a special mention as it can use Taunt to put a stop to Suicune's shenanigans and then proceed to wear it down with super-effective Thunderbolts.

There we go, that's the third Pokemon of the Week! Let me know whether this has helped you at all, and your results of testing this Suicune set on the ladder, as well as let me know via VM what Pokemon you want to see next. I'm thinking Mega Absol, but all opinions are welcome, as well as opinions about the Pokemon of the Week format and any ideas you want to see implemented, as well as questions for me about either Suicune or POTW itself. Go out there and try Suicune now, and I'll see you next time! (Yay 300th post!)

 
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Gary

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Suicune is actually really good in the current meta. Physical attackers are everywhere at the moment, and Suicune's massive physical bulk and pure Water typing allows it to switch into a ton of physical threats and set up all over them, such as Talonflame, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Scizor, Tyranitar, Genesect, and much much more. The old sleep mechanics returning was a dream come true for Suicune, because now it doesn't have to worry about Resting at the wrong opportunities nearly as much. Also, phazers can no longer troll Suicune by resetting its sleep counter each time they phaze it out, which is very significant. It's such a pain in the ass to take down even with a dedicated wallbreaker, and even than it's still going to struggle to take it out in 1-2 hits just because of how insanely bulky Suicune is. When I've tried CroCune, I worry less about sweeping and more about weakening the opposing team by spamming boosted Scalds and fishing for burns, which is extremely easy to do seeing as how hard it is to break through Suicune efficiently. Once everything is burned and weakened, I can usually go into something else like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir and easily clean up teams afterwards.

I wouldn't neccesarily say that Suicune faces competition from other bulky Calm Mind users, because most of the ones that you mentioned aren't even that relevant or good anymore in the metagame; Jirachi and Reuniclus are nearly nonexistent, because of their easily exploitable weaknesses, while CM Latias is usually passed up for its offensive Defog sets. Still, it's definitely not the easiest Pokemon to fit on a team, despite its amazing defensive potential. Quite a few Pokemon threaten to wall this set to hell, which means that you're going to have to give Suicune a ton of team support if you want it to sweep. On top of that, it needs a couple of boosts before it can be a legitimate offensive threat, and most of the time the opponent can switch into something like Thundurus or a phazer to get rid of its boosts. Still, Suicune finds many opportunities to setup 1-2 boosts and can easily get a couple of hits or potential burns in before it has to switch out, which can really add up. On top of that, once you get rid of phazers, insane special walls like Chansey/Mega Venusaur, and its checks, it's nearly impossible to beat CroCune late-game, and with most teams centering around physically inclined offense, Suicune is able to sweep better than ever before.

But yeah, solid Pokemon, but requires some significant team support to excel. Still, it's insane bulk, useful typing, and sweeping capabilities make it a great contender for bulky offensive teams and even more offensive teams in general because of its ability to just not give a fuck about 50% of the meta.
 
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Slap a Lapras in front of her. Suicune wont know what to do. NU for the win.
This is why Toxic Spikes is recommended as team support, so that Suicune can break through Pokemon that are immune to the Water-type. Kyurem-B and Thundurus both make excellent teammates to take down things like Jellicent, though it is declining in popularity.
 
Nice. I'm actually only at 1400 on the ladder right now (started yesterday) and I've been surprised at how good this thing has been for me.

With Talonflame and Heatran on many teams, this thing always has a chance to come in and either start setting up, or scald on the switch and hope for a burn. The fact that this thing also doesn't care about M-Venusaur (minus Leech Seed) is something that no other bulky water can do for a team.

Not only is it a tanky behemoth, but it also acts as a status soaker for Pokemon like Landorus or Lucario who would really hate burns or paralysis.

I paired Suicune with two Choice Scarfers- Heatran and Gengar. Heatran takes care of Celebi and Ferrothorn, while Gengar takes care of Jellicent as well as possibly crippling Blissey, Chansey, Quagsire and more with Trick.

All around solid pokemon, and I hope to post more when I get experience some bigger challenges with Suicune.

EDIT: ScarfTran also takes care of M-Pinsir, who I've learned has no problems with Suicune if he doesn't get burned immediately.
 
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I paired Suicune with two Choice Scarfers- Heatran and Gengar. Heatran takes care of Celebi and Ferrothorn, while Gengar takes care of Jellicent as well as possibly crippling Blissey, Chansey, Quagsire and more with Trick.
Speaking of crippling with Trick, it's always pleasant to meddle Suicune's plans with TrickChoice.
 

Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
Suicune is a threat that needs to be hit hard and fast. You can't get around it otherwise. :/

Honestly, the Meta is being increasingly kind to it with a bunch of physical attackers.

The only downside? Rest-talk is unreliable against some of the stronger physical attackers as well....
 
The thing about Suicune is, it is easy to know what set it is running right now. Is Offensive Calm Mind not viable? It has base 85 Base Speed which is still decent.
 
The thing about Suicune is, it is easy to know what set it is running right now. Is Offensive Calm Mind not viable? It has base 85 Base Speed which is still decent.
Doesn't matter if they already know what set you're using if they can't do anything about it.

Also, the OP forgot to highlight Suicune's Pressure. Imo it's one of the things that make CroCune set viable because almost nothing can win against it in stall wars. This is the reason why MVenu without Leech Seed loses to CroCune.
 

Dr Ciel

Banned deucer.
The thing about Suicune is, it is easy to know what set it is running right now. Is Offensive Calm Mind not viable? It has base 85 Base Speed which is still decent.
The Offensive Calm Mind set is viable somewhat, but it's generally outclassed by Keldeo, who has a higher Special Attack stat, much better coverage & in general, a better movepool, as compared to Suicune, who should really only be running the Defensive CM Set.
 
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Also, the OP forgot to highlight Suicune's Pressure. Imo it's one of the things that make CroCune set viable because almost nothing can win against it in stall wars. This is the reason why MVenu without Leech Seed loses to CroCune.
Indeed. You can easily wear out Giga Drain's 16 PP, avoiding the 2HKO from even max SpA M-Venu with just one CM. A lot of people were saying Water Absorb is superior to Pressure, when are we gonna get it, when Pressure is actually great for handling low PP attacks, and Suicune doesn't mind most water attacks anyway.
 
In regards of what to look out for, there are a few of the bigger threats that can deal with Suicune fairly well, despite how well it takes physical hits. Any Genesect that carries Thunderbolt will reliably 2HKO, while Mega Charizard Y can survive a scald as Charizard, mega evolve and just about take another scald while 2HKOing with Solarbeam. Not really a check, but Assault Vest Conkeldurr doesn't mind taking the burn, but wont beat a Rest/CM/Scald set.

If you're running Suicune, you might want to consider running some SpA investment so that there's no chance of Charizard switching in on you and still being able to beat you.
 
In regards of what to look out for, there are a few of the bigger threats that can deal with Suicune fairly well, despite how well it takes physical hits. Any Genesect that carries Thunderbolt will reliably 2HKO, while Mega Charizard Y can survive a scald as Charizard, mega evolve and just about take another scald while 2HKOing with Solarbeam. Not really a check, but Assault Vest Conkeldurr doesn't mind taking the burn, but wont beat a Rest/CM/Scald set.

If you're running Suicune, you might want to consider running some SpA investment so that there's no chance of Charizard switching in on you and still being able to beat you.
One word. No. I have used Suicune since Gen III. It's not important to scald on the switch. It's far more important to gather Calm Mind boosts, as long as your opponent's counter or check to Suicune relies on Special Attacks to break through. Some examples include Charizard Y and Specs Latios. The truth is Suicune really has one viable set and one viable spread. Anything outside of it is outclassed or ineffective.

Suicune is great this gen though. It's set is 100% perfect as is. No water absorb. Needs pressure, etc. But it does what it needs to be very well.
 
Don't forget Toxicroak is counter to crocune. its immune to toxic/toxic spikes, and can set up multiple swords dances without consequence.
 
Don't forget Toxicroak is counter to crocune. its immune to toxic/toxic spikes, and can set up multiple swords dances without consequence.
Yeah, but Toxicroak is hardly relevant in a metagame that isn't as rain centric as BW.
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
Suicune is just retardedly bulky. I mean, seriously...
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 272-320 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 260-310 (64.3 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 154-183 (38.1 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 288-340 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even top notch Ubers mons fail to guarantee OHKOs on it:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 370-436 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Palkia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 309-364 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery lolwut

As far as ways to beat it, Water Absorb mons can absorb Scald, but only Life Orb Cacturne can do enough damage to 2HKO it. Taunt and Trick, as well as the rarer Haze and Torment can cripple it, with Trick being the most permanent.
Other checks include all the things up there that can 2HKO it at +0 (Mega Charizard Y, Mega Heracross, Banded Kyurem-B). Obviously, you can beat it 1-on-1 with a special attacking Electric or Grass type, but if Suicune gets any CM boosts in, then the list of Special Attackers in OU that can 2HKO Suicune at +1 drops to LO Thundurus-T. Finally, some set-up sweepers can beat it. This list includes DD Mega Charizard X, SD Toxic Heal Breloom, NP Thundurus (both forms), NP Celebi...basically, anything that can grab a quick +2 and doesn't care about getting burned, all while having the bulk to take at least 1 Scald.

Finally, the only really relevant things that can (rather unreliably) OHKO it are Technician Breloom and LO Thundurus-T.
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 336-405 (83.1 - 100.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 369-437 (91.3 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
 
This is why I love Suicune this generation. He's so much better than he ever has been before. In my personal experience the most noteworthy threats are M-Venusaur with Leech Seed. Mega Charizard Y if you haven't garnered any CM boosts. Breloom wrecks Suicune - even after a burn. And yes, NP Thundurus-T. But without NP, he's a piece of cake.
 
Another counter, although gimmicky is focus energy kingdra. and just hax in general. CM users are hax magnets so if you're using this expect a few ragequits from yourself and probably the opponent as well.

On a more serious note, most of the stuff that walls Suicune such as Gastrodon, and Jellicent don't really do much back, which means that the only way you're getting past this mofo is through a powerful SE physical attack (if it's already accumulated a few boosts). And physical electric and grass moves aren't that common. I guess you'd have to be wary of the uncommon Horn Leech from a Sawsbuck, or a Bullet Seed from Breloom/Mega Heracross; an invested life orb Fusion Bolt from Kyurem-B, and others. My point is they aren't very common. However Powerful special attackers can 2HKO Suicune after one calm mind. Life orb Thundurus-T's thunderbolt 2HKO's after one calm mind, and life orb Thundurus-I's Thunderbolt has a chance to. This is incorporating a second Calm Mind after the first T-Bolt hits. Investing in a bit of special bulk could help Cune escape this but it's not worth the lessened Physical Bulk. But for the most part after one Calm Mind, nothing's getting past Suicune anytime soon.

Really my only problem with using CroCune, is how boring it gets especially when you're facing stally pokemon that take shit from a +6 Scald. for example the Blobs, M-Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Jelli, Gastro and others. It just becomes a stall fest. This pokemon is not for the impatient.
 
Suicune is a good mon this gen, yet hasn't really changed much - the metagame around it has shifted to a more offensive approach and suicune is not, imo, able to do just enough damage without a couple of calm mind boosts.
Even though its bulk is way above average, powerful special attackers are able to dent it very severly, if not even OK'ing it.
(Sigh) I still love it though
 
Any suggestions for some good teammates for Suicune? He pretty much ended up carrying my last team, which was a pretty mediocre setup otherwise, and I'd like to put it to good use in a decent setup. I've been thinking of pairing it with Mawile.
 
yeah if CroCune gets a few boosts it become almost impossible to kill on the special side of things can wear down a lot of threats with burns. The best way I have seen is to hit hard with a super effective attack. This thing is very viable and with a couple of boosts it become very hard to kill especially late game when a lot of its checks/counters are gone
 

Chou Toshio

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Scizor (and Genesect if it doesn't get banned) are good partners. Lure in Heatran, and U-Turn out straight into Suicune to get that set-up going. Scizor also lures in the bulky Ground-types like Lando-T, Gliscor, and Hippowdon. Rotom-W (who also switches in on Scizor/Gene too often) is not too bad as a set-up chance for Suicune either, as its Volt Switch does relatively pitiful damage. Talonflame/Pinser lure in similar threats.
 
I run defensive Suicune on my (mostly) stall team, but instead of Sleep Talk I use Roar. It might seem odd to have Rest and no ST/healing berry, but that's where Clerical Celebi comes in as a great partner. Heal Bell Celebi is not only able to switch into the various grass and electric attacks that home in on Suicune, but also shave off Rest's sleep status allowing Suicune to switch back in ready to go for more shenanigans.

Offensively, I like to run Sub-3-Attack Kyurem-B alongside my Suicune to help break down the various Pokemon that would otherwise give it a hard time. Azumarill, Mahaphy, Keldeo, Jellicent, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Tentacruel, Slowbro, etc are smashed by Fusion Bolt. Dragonite, Venusaur, Breloom, The Lati Twins, Trevenant, Salamence, Hydreigon, Celebi, Haxorus, etc are wrecked by Ice Beam. I like to run Earth Power for the omnipresent Rotom-W as my last move, but I could understand picking something like Dragon Claw instead.

If you use a phazing Suicune like mine, you obviously want team members who can put up residual damage. Things that throw out Toxic or lay down Toxic Spikes are great, since both let Suicune out-stall Water-Absorbers and various other problematic Pokemon. Alongside Poison, Burn helps indirectly bolster Suicune's great physical defense.
 
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The next Pokemon of the Week will be up soon. It will be brought to you by my partner, who is collaborating with me from hereon to create the Pokemon of the Week. We will alternate in posting the thread. As a clue, it is a Psychic-type :]
 
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