If I had to choose only a ScraftyIsTheBest's nomination, I support that. I tried CB Sawk many time, its movepool and its great Atk raise itself to B-/B imo.
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Resource XY RU Tier List (RU Viability Ranking itt)
- Thread starter Molk
- Start date
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If I had to choose only a ScraftyIsTheBest's nomination, I support that. I tried CB Sawk many time, its movepool and its great Atk raise itself to B-/B imo.
Exploud should definitely be moved up to A-. It is an amazing wallbreaker that really only gets stopped by aroma-regi cores (which it can beat if it predicts correctly) and just tears through the tier. It works great on balance teams, HO, and is a total killer on sticky web.
Fletchinder should also be moved to A-. It crushes HO with priority, and is an excellent wincon against balance and stall teams. Furthermore, most of its checks (Rhyperior, Alo, Regi) don't really appreciate the burn, and, akin to moltres, if you pair it with something like gligar, then rocks can be removed with ease.
Exploud+Fletchinder Core is the best.
Fletchinder should also be moved to A-. It crushes HO with priority, and is an excellent wincon against balance and stall teams. Furthermore, most of its checks (Rhyperior, Alo, Regi) don't really appreciate the burn, and, akin to moltres, if you pair it with something like gligar, then rocks can be removed with ease.
Exploud+Fletchinder Core is the best.
Gonna pull some updates now!
I'm not really sure what to do about Registeel at the moment, so i'd like to focus discussion on that for a little bit. Do you think it should be A- or B+ rank, whichever way you want to move it, why do you want it that way?
Also, is Lunatone worth adding to D rank or no in your guys opinion?
As usual, if you strongly disagree with one of the changes made just say so etc etc =).
Eelektross up to B+
Fletchinder up to A-
Exploud up to A-
Mesprit up to C+
Rotom-F up to C
Liepard up to C+
Sawk up to B-
Gurdurr up to B+
Mega Banette down to B+
Meowstic down to C
Vivillon down to C+
Gorebyss down to B- rank
Fletchinder up to A-
Exploud up to A-
Mesprit up to C+
Rotom-F up to C
Liepard up to C+
Sawk up to B-
Gurdurr up to B+
Mega Banette down to B+
Meowstic down to C
Vivillon down to C+
Gorebyss down to B- rank
I'm not really sure what to do about Registeel at the moment, so i'd like to focus discussion on that for a little bit. Do you think it should be A- or B+ rank, whichever way you want to move it, why do you want it that way?
Also, is Lunatone worth adding to D rank or no in your guys opinion?
As usual, if you strongly disagree with one of the changes made just say so etc etc =).
I've explored Lunatone's movepool and I'm not really sure what niche it has? If you're using the SpDef set as an Exploud/Moltres/Delphox check, it's basically comparable to being a Pursuitable Cradily with no adequately threatening mono-STAB to use. The only other niche I could see is Baton Pass, but again, with no threatening STAB to use, it can't stop the two biggest threats to passing: wallbreakers and phazers. What am I missing?
Two new nominations:
S -> A+
To be honest, the metagame has sort of shifted away from Hitmonlee (Hand Grenade trend faded away for the most part). It offers no defensive backbone when compared to the rest of the S Rank (Doublade checks more than half of the tier, Moltres and Meloetta can be used as soft checks against some stuff, with the later also having the ability to go fully defensive if needed) and there exist a lot of other options for Fighting-types that have been rising in popularity or were popular already, such as Sawk, Gurdurr, Virizion and Cobalion, which also bring way more utility to a team for the most part. There are also the facts that Hitmonlee is a pretty one dimensional Pokemon (Scarf is sort of weak compared to other revenge killers and Unburden requires way too much support) and that both the aforementioned Gligar and Doublade are everywhere. It's still a good Pokemon under a lot of circumstances, but nonwhere near the level of everything else in S Rank.
B+ -> B
B+ is a rank with a lot of support oriented Pokemon, which makes it easier to find stuff to compare this one to, in the sense that Accelgor, Qwilfish and Omastar are Pokemon that provide support to a decent amount of teams (Banette too to an extend, and Gurdurr / Eelektross aren't used on their offensive prowess alone, but it's sort of different). However, unlike those, Combusken requires an entire build around what it does, which means it's the face of an entire playstyle. However, the playstyle it represents has some inconsistency attached to it, unlike the common team archetypes. The fact that it requires Combusken and at least one solid recipient (it's usually Xatu + Drapion or any other solid Bulk Up recipient) means that there is usually little room for everything else that a good team needs, including a defensive backbone (possibly), hazard control and a secondary win condition. With this in mind, I'd probably move Combusken down a rank.
To be honest, the metagame has sort of shifted away from Hitmonlee (Hand Grenade trend faded away for the most part). It offers no defensive backbone when compared to the rest of the S Rank (Doublade checks more than half of the tier, Moltres and Meloetta can be used as soft checks against some stuff, with the later also having the ability to go fully defensive if needed) and there exist a lot of other options for Fighting-types that have been rising in popularity or were popular already, such as Sawk, Gurdurr, Virizion and Cobalion, which also bring way more utility to a team for the most part. There are also the facts that Hitmonlee is a pretty one dimensional Pokemon (Scarf is sort of weak compared to other revenge killers and Unburden requires way too much support) and that both the aforementioned Gligar and Doublade are everywhere. It's still a good Pokemon under a lot of circumstances, but nonwhere near the level of everything else in S Rank.
B+ is a rank with a lot of support oriented Pokemon, which makes it easier to find stuff to compare this one to, in the sense that Accelgor, Qwilfish and Omastar are Pokemon that provide support to a decent amount of teams (Banette too to an extend, and Gurdurr / Eelektross aren't used on their offensive prowess alone, but it's sort of different). However, unlike those, Combusken requires an entire build around what it does, which means it's the face of an entire playstyle. However, the playstyle it represents has some inconsistency attached to it, unlike the common team archetypes. The fact that it requires Combusken and at least one solid recipient (it's usually Xatu + Drapion or any other solid Bulk Up recipient) means that there is usually little room for everything else that a good team needs, including a defensive backbone (possibly), hazard control and a secondary win condition. With this in mind, I'd probably move Combusken down a rank.
Two new nominations:
B+ -> B
B+ is a rank with a lot of support oriented Pokemon, which makes it easier to find stuff to compare this one to, in the sense that Accelgor, Qwilfish and Omastar are Pokemon that provide support to a decent amount of teams (Banette too to an extend, and Gurdurr / Eelektross aren't used on their offensive prowess alone, but it's sort of different). However, unlike those, Combusken requires an entire build around what it does, which means it's the face of an entire playstyle. However, the playstyle it represents has some inconsistency attached to it, unlike the common team archetypes. The fact that it requires Combusken and at least one solid recipient (it's usually Xatu + Drapion or any other solid Bulk Up recipient) means that there is usually little room for everything else that a good team needs, including a defensive backbone (possibly), hazard control and a secondary win condition. With this in mind, I'd probably move Combusken down a rank.
Something else that Pearl. forgot to note is that a bunch of RU's common threats are annoyances for Combusken to deal with, including but not limited to Dragon Tail Slowking (poses a direct threat, doesn't care about Flare Blitz, phazes through Magic Bounce), Roar Rhyperior (forces a coinflip for the Combusken user at best, even with Xatu), Fletchinder (Acrobatics stops Combusken in its tracks, can set up with Combusken, burns recipients with wisp), Moltres (resists Flare Blitz, easily breaks Combusken with Hurricane, inflicts major pain on most good recipients), and Clawitzer (doesn't care about Flare Blitz, threatens most recipients really easily). Which contributes to the argument for a drop quite a bit imo.
That's not to say Combusken is a bad Pokemon though, i've used Combuskenpass teams very effectively, i just think that given what Pearl. mentioned above and the fact that it struggles with some common Pokemon means that B rank fits the chicken a bit better than B+.
Just gonna point out that Combusken can rub Substitute to beat Dragon Tail users, and after a bulk up even if Slowking is invested attack it cant break it.
What do you remove for Sub? Protect? Flare Blitz?
Protect, Bulk Up, Flare Blitz, Baton Pass
obviously there are pros and cons with the 4th moveslot, I'm just saying Combusken has a way to beat just about everything except for haze
Definitely agreeing on Hitmonlee to A+ Rank.
While Hitmonlee is probably still the best Rapid Spin user in the tier it kinda struggles to be that useful in a lot of battles. Pokémon that hard check or counter it such as Doublade, Spiritomb, Moltres, and Gligar are incredibly common in this metagame and, while some of them might let Hitmonlee use Rapid Spin, the fact that it can't spam High Jump Kick as easily with its checks beimg just about anywhere makes it a lot less scary to face.
While Hitmonlee is probably still the best Rapid Spin user in the tier it kinda struggles to be that useful in a lot of battles. Pokémon that hard check or counter it such as Doublade, Spiritomb, Moltres, and Gligar are incredibly common in this metagame and, while some of them might let Hitmonlee use Rapid Spin, the fact that it can't spam High Jump Kick as easily with its checks beimg just about anywhere makes it a lot less scary to face.
I have two nominations, which may or may not be controversial:
Aromatisse to A:
My main argument here is Aromatisse's lack of self-sufficiency. Sure, its really bulky and has a nice typing, but for a wall, it is worn down very quickly. It has to heal itself literally after every single powerful attack in order to switch in again. And since Wish takes two turns to activate, its opens up the way for the tier's most dangerous setup sweepers, like Cobalion, Durant, CM Reuniclus/Cresselia, etc. You can argue that Alomomola, or any wall has this problem, but Aromatisse's exacerbates this problem as its only option to heal itself is Wish, which again, takes two turns. If it decides to switch out, it basically can't switch in again on decently powerful attackers.
To illustrate my point, lets say you switch Aromatisse on a Hitmonlee's HJK after SR, taking roughly half your health. You can either choose to A) Wish/Protect, giving your opponent time to set up with his Durant (arbitrary sweeper) if he decides to switch out, B) Attack, killing lee if it decides to stay in, or C) predict a switch and switch out yourself. A) gives away a free turn, which can be disastrous, depending on your situation, B) either leaves you crippled at miniscule health or has the same effect as A, while C) leaves you unable to switch into that attack again, or any other moderately powerful attack. It's KOed by Crunch + Waterfall by Sharpedo, for example. Now you might say that any good player will carry another counter to Lee, or that Aromatisse is meant to check, not counter Lee, but replace Hitmonlee in the example with any other powerful attacker, and it becomes apparent the flaws of lacking a secondary healing method.
A lot of things that Aromatisse is commonly found with (Rhyperior, Doublade, and Weezing) that can cover Aromatisse's weaknesses to the multitude of hard hitting Steel-types are also reliant on its wish passing, meaning that usually only one pokemon is going to be consistently healthy. Aromatisse is rather self-defeating at all of its roles from a wish passer, to a cleric, to a wall, because it hates switching into attacks. Often, the only time you can succesfully bring it in to do its job is during a free switch-in. Aromatherapy makes this problem ten times worse, as it rarely can find an opportunity to use it. It also absolutely hates hazards, as that cuts its lifespan even more. Ironically, Aromatisse performs its best against against opposing stall teams, not offensive teams.
Notice that I'm nominating for A rank, and not any lower, because Aromatisse is still a good mon, its just that it can't really deal with the pressure of an offensive team very well.
Audino to B-/B:
Relating to my previous point, Audino is one of the best wish passers, with the combination of Wish + Regenerator. If you need a bulky water slot to counter Moltres, then Audino is something you should strongly consider as a wish passer. Unlike Aromatisse, it can actually switch out easily without always healing itself, and actually has better overall bulk, meaning it can stop many of the same threats that Aromatisse would stop. What makes Audino unique is its access to Encore, giving the niche of the only wish passer (or any wall, for that matter) not suspectible to setup sweepers, which is a huge boon for defensive teams. Sure, it can be played around, but at least its not a sitting duck in the face of things like SubBU Braviary, CM Psychics, and so forth. Also, it has access to Knock Off, Healing Wish, Thunder Wave, and Heal Bell, giving it nice options all around. It's weaknesses are obvious, including its weakness to Fighting (Lee, Virizion, Cobalion) and Taunt, but its definitely better than most of the C+ rank.
Aromatisse to A:
My main argument here is Aromatisse's lack of self-sufficiency. Sure, its really bulky and has a nice typing, but for a wall, it is worn down very quickly. It has to heal itself literally after every single powerful attack in order to switch in again. And since Wish takes two turns to activate, its opens up the way for the tier's most dangerous setup sweepers, like Cobalion, Durant, CM Reuniclus/Cresselia, etc. You can argue that Alomomola, or any wall has this problem, but Aromatisse's exacerbates this problem as its only option to heal itself is Wish, which again, takes two turns. If it decides to switch out, it basically can't switch in again on decently powerful attackers.
To illustrate my point, lets say you switch Aromatisse on a Hitmonlee's HJK after SR, taking roughly half your health. You can either choose to A) Wish/Protect, giving your opponent time to set up with his Durant (arbitrary sweeper) if he decides to switch out, B) Attack, killing lee if it decides to stay in, or C) predict a switch and switch out yourself. A) gives away a free turn, which can be disastrous, depending on your situation, B) either leaves you crippled at miniscule health or has the same effect as A, while C) leaves you unable to switch into that attack again, or any other moderately powerful attack. It's KOed by Crunch + Waterfall by Sharpedo, for example. Now you might say that any good player will carry another counter to Lee, or that Aromatisse is meant to check, not counter Lee, but replace Hitmonlee in the example with any other powerful attacker, and it becomes apparent the flaws of lacking a secondary healing method.
A lot of things that Aromatisse is commonly found with (Rhyperior, Doublade, and Weezing) that can cover Aromatisse's weaknesses to the multitude of hard hitting Steel-types are also reliant on its wish passing, meaning that usually only one pokemon is going to be consistently healthy. Aromatisse is rather self-defeating at all of its roles from a wish passer, to a cleric, to a wall, because it hates switching into attacks. Often, the only time you can succesfully bring it in to do its job is during a free switch-in. Aromatherapy makes this problem ten times worse, as it rarely can find an opportunity to use it. It also absolutely hates hazards, as that cuts its lifespan even more. Ironically, Aromatisse performs its best against against opposing stall teams, not offensive teams.
Notice that I'm nominating for A rank, and not any lower, because Aromatisse is still a good mon, its just that it can't really deal with the pressure of an offensive team very well.
Audino to B-/B:
Relating to my previous point, Audino is one of the best wish passers, with the combination of Wish + Regenerator. If you need a bulky water slot to counter Moltres, then Audino is something you should strongly consider as a wish passer. Unlike Aromatisse, it can actually switch out easily without always healing itself, and actually has better overall bulk, meaning it can stop many of the same threats that Aromatisse would stop. What makes Audino unique is its access to Encore, giving the niche of the only wish passer (or any wall, for that matter) not suspectible to setup sweepers, which is a huge boon for defensive teams. Sure, it can be played around, but at least its not a sitting duck in the face of things like SubBU Braviary, CM Psychics, and so forth. Also, it has access to Knock Off, Healing Wish, Thunder Wave, and Heal Bell, giving it nice options all around. It's weaknesses are obvious, including its weakness to Fighting (Lee, Virizion, Cobalion) and Taunt, but its definitely better than most of the C+ rank.
Alrighty, time to make a nomination of my own!
Slurpuff------>B-
Slurpuff's been sitting at B rank for quite a while now and i honestly don't think that rank is suitable for it anymore. Everyone should know what Slurpuff does by now: It's a set up sweeper that uses Unburden in combination with either Belly Drum or Calm Mind to clean up a team, and while it can certainly still be dangerous i just think both sets require too much support/are too situational for puffer to stay in B tbh.
Like any other sweeper that uses the move, BD Slurpuff is quite challenging to set up safely considering you need to cut your HP to do so (and since unboosted Slurpuff hits like a wet paper bag most people will stay in to attack as you try to set up as long as they have at least some method to hurt you), which makes setting up BD Slurpuff quite a risky business no matter what way you slice it (and cutting your HP also makes you more vulnerable to priority of course, although resisting Mach Punch and Sucker Punch helps). Because Slurpuff needs all the HP it can get given this, it rarely if ever gets safe opportunities to enter the game outside of bringing it in after a KO/a slow U-turn or Volt Switch too. Ease of set up isn't the only issue i have with Belly Drum Slurpuff though, i also feel like there are still some major (and common) roadblocks that hold it back from being as threatening as it can be. Even at +6, pretty much all of RU's Steel-types (barring Cobalion of course) can still take a +6 Play Rough and either outright KO or cripple Slurpuff in return, and most of them are quite common (especially Doublade, which of course happens to be the one that deals with BD Slurpuff the best). Physically Defensive Amoonguss and the occasional Weezing aren't too shabby at dealing with +6 Slurpuff either, and hell even Rhyperior has a good shot at taking a +6 Play Rough from full health and can phaze it out with Roar in a pinch. Of course you could argue that dual screens/memento support helps out BD Slurpuff, and it does quite a bit, but that's quite a lot of support for a Pokemon that still might not be able to sweep given the second point.
As for Calm Mind Slurpuff: It's quite a bit easier to set up than Belly Drum Slurpuff, but it's still sort of weak even after a boost (hell even after multiple boosts it can miss out on KOs vs somewhat bulky Pokemon, for example it needs to be at +6 for Dazzling Gleam to OHKO standard Choice Specs Meloetta) and still ends up struggling with a few common RU Pokemon because of this :/ (Slowking's a big one here, and Amoonguss/Registeel still give CM puff trouble). Plus, getting Unburden to activate is a bit awkward at times.
Last but not least, the inherent flaw of Unburden. Because Unburden can only activate once per game under normal conditions, Slurpuff only gets one chance to sweep per game. It's all or nothing for Slurpuff, and if it fails to cleanly sweep the first time around it's essentially dead weight for the rest of the match, it'll never get another chance.
Slurpuff's been sitting at B rank for quite a while now and i honestly don't think that rank is suitable for it anymore. Everyone should know what Slurpuff does by now: It's a set up sweeper that uses Unburden in combination with either Belly Drum or Calm Mind to clean up a team, and while it can certainly still be dangerous i just think both sets require too much support/are too situational for puffer to stay in B tbh.
Like any other sweeper that uses the move, BD Slurpuff is quite challenging to set up safely considering you need to cut your HP to do so (and since unboosted Slurpuff hits like a wet paper bag most people will stay in to attack as you try to set up as long as they have at least some method to hurt you), which makes setting up BD Slurpuff quite a risky business no matter what way you slice it (and cutting your HP also makes you more vulnerable to priority of course, although resisting Mach Punch and Sucker Punch helps). Because Slurpuff needs all the HP it can get given this, it rarely if ever gets safe opportunities to enter the game outside of bringing it in after a KO/a slow U-turn or Volt Switch too. Ease of set up isn't the only issue i have with Belly Drum Slurpuff though, i also feel like there are still some major (and common) roadblocks that hold it back from being as threatening as it can be. Even at +6, pretty much all of RU's Steel-types (barring Cobalion of course) can still take a +6 Play Rough and either outright KO or cripple Slurpuff in return, and most of them are quite common (especially Doublade, which of course happens to be the one that deals with BD Slurpuff the best). Physically Defensive Amoonguss and the occasional Weezing aren't too shabby at dealing with +6 Slurpuff either, and hell even Rhyperior has a good shot at taking a +6 Play Rough from full health and can phaze it out with Roar in a pinch. Of course you could argue that dual screens/memento support helps out BD Slurpuff, and it does quite a bit, but that's quite a lot of support for a Pokemon that still might not be able to sweep given the second point.
As for Calm Mind Slurpuff: It's quite a bit easier to set up than Belly Drum Slurpuff, but it's still sort of weak even after a boost (hell even after multiple boosts it can miss out on KOs vs somewhat bulky Pokemon, for example it needs to be at +6 for Dazzling Gleam to OHKO standard Choice Specs Meloetta) and still ends up struggling with a few common RU Pokemon because of this :/ (Slowking's a big one here, and Amoonguss/Registeel still give CM puff trouble). Plus, getting Unburden to activate is a bit awkward at times.
Last but not least, the inherent flaw of Unburden. Because Unburden can only activate once per game under normal conditions, Slurpuff only gets one chance to sweep per game. It's all or nothing for Slurpuff, and if it fails to cleanly sweep the first time around it's essentially dead weight for the rest of the match, it'll never get another chance.
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Hmm. I guess I can comment on Slurpuff since I use it so much it's almost incredible.
I do like Slurpuff quite a bit. It's a very threatening late-game cleaner, and the Belly Drum set has won me games and has been my go-to wincon for quite some time now. I love the Belly Drum set simply because it only needs one turn to sweep, and with Play Rough and Return, Slurpuff is almost completely unstoppable once it sets up. I have also tried the Calm Mind set and it does decently at sweeping too, and has a bit more longevity compared to Belly Drum (actually, a lot more longevity), and has coverage though it takes longer for it to become a threat.
That said, I can see Slurpuff's flaws quite clearly, as since I use Slurpuff so much, I know where its issues lie. My biggest problem with the Belly Drum set, from my extensive experience using it, is trying to set up. Basically, since Slurpuff is kind of frail, it's pretty difficult for it to set up, and needs to set up on weaker moves to get its shot at sweeping. Because of Belly Drum's mechanics, you can't switch Slurpuff into anything if you want to get work done with it: it needs to come in after a kill or via a slow U-turn/Volt Switch from something like Eelektross. It kind of needs hazards off the field if you want a maximum shot at sweeping too, because Belly Drum takes off such a huge amount of its HP that it could be easy to pick off afterwards.
I have tried the Calm Mind set, and it does work decently too. However, it becomes a threat much less quickly than the Belly Drum set, and Slurpuff needs to set up a lot of Calm Mind boosts, at least two or three, if it plans on sweeping anything anytime soon. Slurpuff also only really does excel against offense and heavily weakened teams with this set, as stall teams have a rather easy time with it since this set is weak in comparison to the Belly Drum set which could muscle through anything that isn't a Steel-type. Slurpuff also needs to be repeatedly assaulted to get to Unburden, and it could suffer way too much damage while setting up to sweep.
As Molk said, thanks to Unburden, Slurpuff only really has one shot at sweeping. This means that Slurpuff is something you need to build your entire team around, it is not something that can be slapped onto a team and be expected to work: if you want to sweep with it, it needs to be placed on a team dedicated to it. That is, you need teammates that can remove its counters quickly, and Slurpuff needs Registeel and friends out of the battle before it can come in and sweep, or in the case of CM, needs Slowking and other special walls gone.
So in short, Slurpuff is a fun Pokemon to use and can be a very massive threat, but it needs quite a bit of support. It's a very unique sweeper however, and is a complete monster in the right conditions. I guess B- would be okay for it. Looking in there, Slurpuff could be comparable to threats such as Cinccino, Sawk, and Zangoose who are sitting in that rank, as it needs about as much support as they do.
I do like Slurpuff quite a bit. It's a very threatening late-game cleaner, and the Belly Drum set has won me games and has been my go-to wincon for quite some time now. I love the Belly Drum set simply because it only needs one turn to sweep, and with Play Rough and Return, Slurpuff is almost completely unstoppable once it sets up. I have also tried the Calm Mind set and it does decently at sweeping too, and has a bit more longevity compared to Belly Drum (actually, a lot more longevity), and has coverage though it takes longer for it to become a threat.
That said, I can see Slurpuff's flaws quite clearly, as since I use Slurpuff so much, I know where its issues lie. My biggest problem with the Belly Drum set, from my extensive experience using it, is trying to set up. Basically, since Slurpuff is kind of frail, it's pretty difficult for it to set up, and needs to set up on weaker moves to get its shot at sweeping. Because of Belly Drum's mechanics, you can't switch Slurpuff into anything if you want to get work done with it: it needs to come in after a kill or via a slow U-turn/Volt Switch from something like Eelektross. It kind of needs hazards off the field if you want a maximum shot at sweeping too, because Belly Drum takes off such a huge amount of its HP that it could be easy to pick off afterwards.
I have tried the Calm Mind set, and it does work decently too. However, it becomes a threat much less quickly than the Belly Drum set, and Slurpuff needs to set up a lot of Calm Mind boosts, at least two or three, if it plans on sweeping anything anytime soon. Slurpuff also only really does excel against offense and heavily weakened teams with this set, as stall teams have a rather easy time with it since this set is weak in comparison to the Belly Drum set which could muscle through anything that isn't a Steel-type. Slurpuff also needs to be repeatedly assaulted to get to Unburden, and it could suffer way too much damage while setting up to sweep.
As Molk said, thanks to Unburden, Slurpuff only really has one shot at sweeping. This means that Slurpuff is something you need to build your entire team around, it is not something that can be slapped onto a team and be expected to work: if you want to sweep with it, it needs to be placed on a team dedicated to it. That is, you need teammates that can remove its counters quickly, and Slurpuff needs Registeel and friends out of the battle before it can come in and sweep, or in the case of CM, needs Slowking and other special walls gone.
So in short, Slurpuff is a fun Pokemon to use and can be a very massive threat, but it needs quite a bit of support. It's a very unique sweeper however, and is a complete monster in the right conditions. I guess B- would be okay for it. Looking in there, Slurpuff could be comparable to threats such as Cinccino, Sawk, and Zangoose who are sitting in that rank, as it needs about as much support as they do.
I appreciate what ScraftyIsTheBest , Molk and Kevun was talking about. Really.
I want to put my cent and report what B rank description
I like CM sets too; there're more than one, each one is working very well. CM/Draining Kiss (recovering HP)/Flamethrover/Surf with Sitrus Berry or with Rest Flamethrover/Surf with Chesto Berry. I prefer CM/Substitute/Dazzling Gleam and Surf/Flamethrover. Substitute is helpful to save itself vs status move, to make a CM boost in safe mode, dealing with Sucker Punch users and also could be used to activate unburden when you need it.
But also a defensive set can be a good way to use Slurpluff. Aromatherapy, Wish but also Cotton Guard which boosts user's Defense by 3 stages. A combination of Cotton Guard/Calm Mind/Max initial investiment on SDef, could be a massive boosting for a bulky-offensive set. I want to test around next days, that's a possible idea
Slurpluff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 2524 Spe
Calm Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Flamethrower / Surf / Aromatherapy
By the way, so few rows and we have just many chance to build different set. That reminds me of something....
I want to put my cent and report what B rank description
I'm sure. Slurpluff is for B rank. Belly Drum set is more than only dangerous, it's lethal. You can find some difficult to set up, in the same way, it's not so easy eliminate its counter/checker, that's truth. But if you find a way to do that, well...game is over at 99,99%. +6 Slurpuff is bone-crushing, more than RU mons could bear; with Unburden, some HP recovered by Sitrus Berry and Play Rought/Return it's all downhill from here!
I like CM sets too; there're more than one, each one is working very well. CM/Draining Kiss (recovering HP)/Flamethrover/Surf with Sitrus Berry or with Rest Flamethrover/Surf with Chesto Berry. I prefer CM/Substitute/Dazzling Gleam and Surf/Flamethrover. Substitute is helpful to save itself vs status move, to make a CM boost in safe mode, dealing with Sucker Punch users and also could be used to activate unburden when you need it.
But also a defensive set can be a good way to use Slurpluff. Aromatherapy, Wish but also Cotton Guard which boosts user's Defense by 3 stages. A combination of Cotton Guard/Calm Mind/Max initial investiment on SDef, could be a massive boosting for a bulky-offensive set. I want to test around next days, that's a possible idea
Slurpluff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 2524 Spe
Calm Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Flamethrower / Surf / Aromatherapy
By the way, so few rows and we have just many chance to build different set. That reminds me of something....
Of course is not a S Rank. But I think B+ rank (raising from B) or stay in B, IMO it's the right place for it.
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I'd like to bring up the fact that the inferior Sawk and Gallade are both at B- yet Gallade's better with a Band/Scarf/LO, and is also more versatile. I think either Sawk should go back down to C- again or Gallade should move up to B. Besides from the niche Mold Breaker on Sawk (nails an Eelektross with an EQ once in a blue moon) Gallade can do everything that Sawk can do better, and can also run an effective Swords Dance or Bulk Up set.
I was the one to bring up Slurpuff on IRC so i will support the nomination.
The metagame is pretty unfavourable to Slurpuff with Pokemon that beat either set in a lot of teams.
While Belly Drum Slurpuff has a LOT of power it has a 100% counter in Doublade that really takes any hit comfortably and kils back and is even immune to Endeavor (which shouldnt be dismissed because it does a crapton to Registeel) which is found in a ton of team. Even team that use Spiritomb are not overly weak to it as Spiritomb can simply use Foul Play as it belly drums (which hes forced to as it is the only Pokemon on offense it can set up on likely) and lead to this
+6 252+ Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 278-327 (90.8 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The Calm Mind set apparently beats some of its counters like Doublade but it is a worse option overall due to its lack of power and safe way to activate Unburden (unless it uses Substitute which just takes away coverage meaning that you cant beat checks :/) and is checked by stuff like Moltres/and Drapion quite easily.
Then there is the fact that it can only setup once and that REALLY screws it over.
Dropit
I also had other nominations (like Mismagius to drop and Sneasel to rise) but i'd like to see what other ppl think about it :]
The metagame is pretty unfavourable to Slurpuff with Pokemon that beat either set in a lot of teams.
While Belly Drum Slurpuff has a LOT of power it has a 100% counter in Doublade that really takes any hit comfortably and kils back and is even immune to Endeavor (which shouldnt be dismissed because it does a crapton to Registeel) which is found in a ton of team. Even team that use Spiritomb are not overly weak to it as Spiritomb can simply use Foul Play as it belly drums (which hes forced to as it is the only Pokemon on offense it can set up on likely) and lead to this
+6 252+ Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 278-327 (90.8 - 106.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The Calm Mind set apparently beats some of its counters like Doublade but it is a worse option overall due to its lack of power and safe way to activate Unburden (unless it uses Substitute which just takes away coverage meaning that you cant beat checks :/) and is checked by stuff like Moltres/and Drapion quite easily.
Then there is the fact that it can only setup once and that REALLY screws it over.
Dropit
I also had other nominations (like Mismagius to drop and Sneasel to rise) but i'd like to see what other ppl think about it :]
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Alrighty, gonna update this!
I'm not exactly sure what to do with Aromatisse and Audino, so i'd like to steer discussion for the next day or two towards them, what does everyone else think of these two? (same goes for Gallade/Sawk).
As always, don't be afraid to speak up if you strongly disagree with a change made
Slurpuff down to B-
Hitmonlee down to A+
Combusken down to B
Hitmonlee down to A+
Combusken down to B
I'm not exactly sure what to do with Aromatisse and Audino, so i'd like to steer discussion for the next day or two towards them, what does everyone else think of these two? (same goes for Gallade/Sawk).
As always, don't be afraid to speak up if you strongly disagree with a change made
having played with sawk, albeit a while ago when i still had the analysis, i know a decent bit with how it plays. Outright there is no reason i would rather use sawk over lee or gallade to be completely honest. That makes it in no way bad in the tier though, I almost saw it as a compromise between lee and gallade in terms of power and coverage. What i really like about sawk is its ability to pair up with a fighting type like hitmonlee and work surprisingly well with it since it can beat all common checks to fighting types all in one set. That being said it is still largely outclassed but it has enough merit for C or C+ rank but imo it doesnt deserve to go much higher
Cacturne instead of going through Sawk's niches over hitmonlee and gallade (again), I'm just going to quote my post from earlier in this thread. Bolded the important parts. Also worth mentioning that Sawk easily beats Aromatisse and Weezing where Hitmonlee doesn't, which I didn't cover in this post.
Edit: just a side-note about aromatisse, Im supporting to leave it where it is, but posters should remember that its immunity to taunt is a huge benefit that a lot of people don't acknowledge in their posts
Edit: just a side-note about aromatisse, Im supporting to leave it where it is, but posters should remember that its immunity to taunt is a huge benefit that a lot of people don't acknowledge in their posts
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I don't have a 100% strong opinion on Aromatisse, but I can see why some would want it to drop a little. Aromatisse is rather one dimensional and it is a cleric almost 100% of the time (sometimes it's a decent CM MonoAttacker), so anyone will know what it will do in a match. It's admittedly a pretty excellent role though and that's part of what makes Aromatisse such a great Pokemon. However, Aromatisse does suffer from being helpless against quite a few common Pokemon. A lot of Pokemon, such as Fletchinder, Delphox, and Doublade can take advantage of Aromatisse and turn it into setup fodder, and Aromatisse can sometimes prove itself a liability on a team. This is largely because the only attack Aromatisse ever runs is Moonblast, and that is usually uninvested. This means it can become a free switch-in to quite a few Pokemon.
The other issue I find in Aromatisse is that it is kind of easy to pressure. It doesn't have Natural Cure or Regenerator, so it often has to spend a lot of time clicking Wish and Aromatherapy: though the support it brings to its team is undeniably invaluable, it kind of has to help itself with recovery and status removal. This does make it rather hard to beat one-on-one, but it can also provide free switch-ins to some common Pokemon. It can support its team, but usually at the cost of not being able to repeatedly check the things it is supposed to beat. This is unlike Alomomola who can consistently stay alive with Regen and sometimes its own Wishes, whereas Aromatisse sometimes struggles to stay alive. The metagame has also kind of adapted to Aromatisse's presence, as Druddigon has almost always been running Gunk Shot to beat it, although I guess that's still useful for Togetic, Whimsicott, and Slurpuff.
Admittedly Aromatisse is still one of the most influential defensive threats in RU. Its typing is fantastic and its bulk isn't too shabby either. It brings cleric support, which is something almost no Pokemon in RU can offer other than Lickilicky, and these combined make Aromatisse one of the primary benefactors of stall teams in XY RU. It is definitely one of the main reasons stall is very good in RU atm, and its typing allows it to take on a large number of threats such as Hitmonlee, to an extent Sharpedo, and a few others.
In the end, I'm not so sure what to think of Aromatisse. It has quite a few issues that prevent it from being the best thing ever, but it's still a very influential defensive Pokemon in RU and is an overall very good Pokemon. I can see it in both A+ and A overall, and I'm not really bothered over which one it ends up in, since it seems to go well with either rank.
(PS: I believe Sawk and Gallade are both fine in B- atm, they have plenty of things going for them, Gallade has versatility and Sawk hits hard and has good coverage and can smash Gligar which Hitmonlee can't, they have good advantages over the other Fighting-types but are still usually inferior).
The other issue I find in Aromatisse is that it is kind of easy to pressure. It doesn't have Natural Cure or Regenerator, so it often has to spend a lot of time clicking Wish and Aromatherapy: though the support it brings to its team is undeniably invaluable, it kind of has to help itself with recovery and status removal. This does make it rather hard to beat one-on-one, but it can also provide free switch-ins to some common Pokemon. It can support its team, but usually at the cost of not being able to repeatedly check the things it is supposed to beat. This is unlike Alomomola who can consistently stay alive with Regen and sometimes its own Wishes, whereas Aromatisse sometimes struggles to stay alive. The metagame has also kind of adapted to Aromatisse's presence, as Druddigon has almost always been running Gunk Shot to beat it, although I guess that's still useful for Togetic, Whimsicott, and Slurpuff.
Admittedly Aromatisse is still one of the most influential defensive threats in RU. Its typing is fantastic and its bulk isn't too shabby either. It brings cleric support, which is something almost no Pokemon in RU can offer other than Lickilicky, and these combined make Aromatisse one of the primary benefactors of stall teams in XY RU. It is definitely one of the main reasons stall is very good in RU atm, and its typing allows it to take on a large number of threats such as Hitmonlee, to an extent Sharpedo, and a few others.
In the end, I'm not so sure what to think of Aromatisse. It has quite a few issues that prevent it from being the best thing ever, but it's still a very influential defensive Pokemon in RU and is an overall very good Pokemon. I can see it in both A+ and A overall, and I'm not really bothered over which one it ends up in, since it seems to go well with either rank.
(PS: I believe Sawk and Gallade are both fine in B- atm, they have plenty of things going for them, Gallade has versatility and Sawk hits hard and has good coverage and can smash Gligar which Hitmonlee can't, they have good advantages over the other Fighting-types but are still usually inferior).
Can I nominate Ambipom from D to C-? I think that is has a good amount of notable qualities that would appeal to a Rarlyused player. The first thing that comes to mind is its wickedly powerful STAB fake out, which is an awesome method of dealing with sash leads and is just a good free damage dealer in general. He has U-turn for momentum gaining and can spam return pretty well late game. If your opponent tries to switch into a ghost like jellicent or confagcrigus to absorb fake out, they risk getting nailed by an SE knock off. Fake out is good for revenging sharpedo and hitmonlee and other frail pokemon. Return does a good chunk to most anything it hits neutrally. Also, Fire Punch is a nice option against Ferroseed, abamasnow, and durant. Finally, access to taunt goes hand-in-hand with fake out to stop leads.
I'm not saying that Ambipom is some sort of God, but I thimk that he certainly has his merits in RU. Thanks for considering!
I'm not saying that Ambipom is some sort of God, but I thimk that he certainly has his merits in RU. Thanks for considering!
I mean it might have a bunch of "notable qualities" that would appeal to a Rarely Used player; however, when put into practice Ambipom is pretty terrible. The only reason it isnt E rank along with Hitmonchan and Claydol is it has some alright qualities that help it a tiny bit. Most of the people who are going to be replying to this want Ambipom in E rank lol.
After lurking for quite a while, I want to give my contribution to the thread.
Regarding the Gallade / Sawk topic, I think that both are fine in B- for now: as Omfuga and ScraftyIsTheBest have already stated before me, they both have their own perks that justify their current ranking (Ex.: Gallade's versatility, Psychic STAB and expansive movepool and Sawk's ability to wallbreak better thanks to a better defensive typing and Pursuit resistence) and both are quite effective in doing their job, despite the competition from the other Fighting types (Ex.: Cobalion is the better SDancer but has far less power than Gallade, Hitmonlee is the better All-Out attacker but their LO/CB set can break through walls 'Lee cannot touch, etc...).
All in all, despite their differencesand the fact that I'm a huge Gallade fan, I think that both are B- worthy at least.
As for Aromatisse, I agree with ScraftyIsTheBest that, while it's a very good (and influential) Pokemon because of all the interesting traits it possesses (Fairy typing, cleric support, Taunt immunity, etc...), it DOES often give free turns to threats like SubCM Delphox and SD Doublade (Alomomola can at least do around 30% with Scald to the former and threaten the latter with a burn) on top of being susceptible to status and all entry hazards (other walls either resist them or have ways to partially circumvent them, like Regenerator). Also, as many have already stated, the metagame has adapted to it to the point that (almost) any team has a way to cripple it, be it a coverage move (Ex.: Gunk Shot Drudd) or Trick/Switcheroo.
So, while Aroma' is still an excellent support 'mon, it has some crippling flaws that are a bit off considering its current placement, so I think it should drop to A.
I don't have any experience with Audino, so I'm not going to make a nomination for it, but I think that what holds it back somewhat is its lack of offensive presence: while some walls/clerics have either decent offenses (Aromatisse, Lickilicky) or a way to recover momentum (Volt switch, U-turn), Audino is limited to a (relatively weak) un-STABbed Knock Off and Double-Edge (a recoil inducing attack for a wall/cleric is a no-no) to "try" and do some damage.
TL,DR: Gallade/Sawk in B-, Aroma down to A and Audino lacks offensive presence, which should be kept in consideration.
Regarding the Gallade / Sawk topic, I think that both are fine in B- for now: as Omfuga and ScraftyIsTheBest have already stated before me, they both have their own perks that justify their current ranking (Ex.: Gallade's versatility, Psychic STAB and expansive movepool and Sawk's ability to wallbreak better thanks to a better defensive typing and Pursuit resistence) and both are quite effective in doing their job, despite the competition from the other Fighting types (Ex.: Cobalion is the better SDancer but has far less power than Gallade, Hitmonlee is the better All-Out attacker but their LO/CB set can break through walls 'Lee cannot touch, etc...).
All in all, despite their differences
As for Aromatisse, I agree with ScraftyIsTheBest that, while it's a very good (and influential) Pokemon because of all the interesting traits it possesses (Fairy typing, cleric support, Taunt immunity, etc...), it DOES often give free turns to threats like SubCM Delphox and SD Doublade (Alomomola can at least do around 30% with Scald to the former and threaten the latter with a burn) on top of being susceptible to status and all entry hazards (other walls either resist them or have ways to partially circumvent them, like Regenerator). Also, as many have already stated, the metagame has adapted to it to the point that (almost) any team has a way to cripple it, be it a coverage move (Ex.: Gunk Shot Drudd) or Trick/Switcheroo.
So, while Aroma' is still an excellent support 'mon, it has some crippling flaws that are a bit off considering its current placement, so I think it should drop to A.
I don't have any experience with Audino, so I'm not going to make a nomination for it, but I think that what holds it back somewhat is its lack of offensive presence: while some walls/clerics have either decent offenses (Aromatisse, Lickilicky) or a way to recover momentum (Volt switch, U-turn), Audino is limited to a (relatively weak) un-STABbed Knock Off and Double-Edge (a recoil inducing attack for a wall/cleric is a no-no) to "try" and do some damage.
TL,DR: Gallade/Sawk in B-, Aroma down to A and Audino lacks offensive presence, which should be kept in consideration.
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Nice first post!
I agree with you on most points, but I actually think the meta has developed so much against Aroma that it can fit into A- instead of A
Dont get the wrong idea, Aroma is still an great pokemon in the current metagame, but many of the things it want to wall are prepared for it and some truly dangerous pokemon like SubCM Furry (which shits on stall) and Durant can set up on it pretty easily.
On the Blob topic, I think audino should at max be B-. This is pure theory mom, but because of its lack of offensive presence and how easy it can be dealt with by most of the tiers stallbreakers (Rhyperior, any fighting, subCM furry and subCM meloetta are some examples).
I also think Shiftry should drop, but I'll write more about that later.
This is actually quite the opposite. One of the main advantages to Audino is its access to Encore, which prevent it from being setup bait. The main drawback of a lack of offensive presence is a suspectibility to things that can set up, but with Encore, Audino can remedy that problem to a significant extent. Audino can actually shut down CM Psychics like Cresselia and Reuniclus, as well as SubBU Braviary, three of the biggest threats to stall, which is extremely valuable. On the other hand, its counterparts, Alomomola and Aromatisse, are big time setup bait. Also, Knock Off, while doing pitiful damage, makes it hard for things like Exploud and Clawitzer (again, some of the biggest threats to stall) to switch in effectively. So, while Audino basically does have no offensive presence whatsoever, it can mitigate that with its support moves.
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