Official XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Voting

[keymoe]

Mega Gengar: DO NOT BAN

While true that mega gengar can trap an opponent's core pokemon, it is by no means uncompetitive. Mega gengar is just a strong threat. Its not like swagger or sheer cold. Too many common threats can OHKO Mega-Gengar. Ubers itself is a rather centralized metagame, and mega gengar is just one reason for the overly centralized metagame. Kyogre, Ho-oh, Arceus and Xerneas already severely limit player choice, so banning mega gengar really won't help the centralization of ubers. Mega Gengar may limit player choice, but several other strategies in Ubers limit player choice just as well. Also, if a team is weak to mega gengar, then that is a fault within teambuilding.

 

[HypnoEmpire]

I believe Gengarite should not be banned.

The inability to switch may seem uncompetitive, but Mega Gengar can only do so much. Its presence makes many Pokemon unviable in Ubers, Chansey being the first to come to mind. However, I don't think making certain Pokemon unviable is a good reason to ban Gengarite. As I see it, Mega Gengar can only really trap and faint Pokemon that are weak to it because most Pokemon in Ubers are strong enough to 2HKO or outright OHKO Mega Gengar. It has a hard time switching into any attacks and has the downside of having to mega evolve for Arena Trap to take effect. Defensive Arceus forms like Arceus-Grass can carry coverage just to hit Mega Gengar if they need to. I've seen many people argue that not being able to switch out is uncompetitive, but Shadow Tag isn't the only thing that stops a Pokemon from switching out: Pursuit. I would like to take a look at Bisharp in OU. It doesn't really like switching directly into Lati@s, but once it gets in, it can easily Pursuit trap Lati@s and wipe them out, making sweeping a lot easier for another teammate. Of course, Lati@s can run a coverage move like Earthquake or HP Fire to hit Bisharp. Wait a minute, this sounds familiar, doesn't it? While it can take out a weakened Arceus-Grass, I don't think that necessarily makes it broken. If using Arceus-Grass is a liability for its weakness to Mega Gengar, then another Pokemon should be used in its place. Again, I don't think making certain Pokemon unviable is a good enough reason to ban Gengarite. Also, Mega Gengar can't really wipe out any Pokemon it wants. While it is fast and has a great special attack stat, and Shadow Tag that lets it revenge kill extremely well, is that really a reason to ban Mega Gengar? I don't think it is, especially since if it can't OHKO its target, it's at the extreme risk of being OHKOd back. I would also like to point out that Mega Gengar can't trap everything. Ghost-types, which would have been a great target for Mega Gengar, can switch out. Defensive Pokemon that lack much offensive presence can use Shed Shell. Most walls won't need to be Ghost-type or have Shed Shall anyway since most defensive Pokemon in Ubers have plenty of offensive presence and coverage to make use of it. In fact, even Blissey can 3HKO Mega Gengar using Psychic with no Special Attack investment. So is Mega Gengar a game defining threat? Hell yeah it is. However, having to run coverage to hit only one specific threat is okay in Ubers, at least I think it is. I would run HP Grass on Kyogre just to hit any potential Gastrodons, so running coverage for Mega Gengar shouldn't be an issue either.

 

[rob.]

Ban Gengarite.

Shadow Tag is an uncompetitive and broken ability, and because of its effectiveness it's easy for the Pokemon with the ability to take advantage. Gengar is the perfect example of a Pokemon that's well equipped to take advantage of Shadow Tag. Gengar has a wide movepool and can utilize a number of different movesets. Then use its expansive movepool to threaten defensive teams by Perish Song trapping vital walls or seek to trap certain threats in order to make it easier for a teammate to rip through the opponents team. Gengar is extremely difficult to stop because of its versatility that's magnified by the broken ability, Shadow Tag. I don't believe Shadow Tag should be banned in Ubers because the problem is Mega Gengar. Gothielle and Wobufett are almost always overpowered after KOing one threat (I found it difficult to net more than one KO with either) because they lack the versatility, speed, and power that Mega Gengar possess'. I don't agree that Ubers should have the least amount of bans as possible since bans are levied in order to create a balanced competitive tier. If you want a balanced tier then banning Gengarite should be a no brainer.

 

[Minority]

Hide

Scientific theory cannot settle debates of value without agreed upon criterion, and even then the conclusion is dependent on the criterion. No such criterion was ever agreed upon and therefore no agreed conclusion could be made. A stopwatch cannot tell you if one runner is better than the other unless speed is the agreed critical criterion, and even then the measurements need to be controlled and accurate. This entire process was not adequately completed with the conclusion that Mega Gengar should be banned. Another common issue is that many of the pro-ban arguments are rooted exclusively in idiographic explanation, which is abused to only explain one case while the scope of the explanation is limited to the case at hand. Uncompetitive elements are defined by how they are perceived in relation to other elements; this is why solely an idiographic explanation is poor to base an argument on in this situation. Despite a few good posts I fail to see how Mega Gengar can be considered something that exclusively encourages players that are less skilled to succeed over players that are more skilled.

No Ban

 

[n00b]

Gengarite: Do not ban

Almost a year ago, a little bit before the arrival of XY, I stumbled upon the Ubers tier. Having only really played a little bit of OU, I was immediately very impressed by the balance and variety that the metagame offered. Unlike OU and lower tiers, which had to work hard and keep banning things in order to try and maintain a balanced metagame, Ubers had no bans. It was the biggest, baddest, and best that Pokemon had to offer. No holds barred, no limits. And somehow, it maintained this balance without a single ban. All sorts of team archetypes were equally viable, all sorts of Pokemon had their niches and advantages, and every single threat had its solutions.

So where exactly am I going with this? You see, despite this "anything goes" attitude of Ubers, there are still a number of clauses, "bans" if you will. Sleep clause exists, OHKO clause exists, Species clause exists, Moody clause exists, and more recently, a Swagger clause has been implemented. At the same time, no "balance" bans have happened. No matter how broken, how overpowered, and how overcentralizing a threat may be, it has not and will not be banned. Kyogre, especially from last generation, Arceus (especially Ekiller), and Xerneas, among others, are all extremely, extremely powerful and in many ways very, very overcentralizing. Every single team in the XY Ubers metagame needs to prepare for Geoxern, every team needs some way to deal with Ekiller, every team needs something to beat Kyogre. But yet, they have not been banned. From this, I personally think that bans in Ubers follow two fairly simple and straightforward conditions. I've already mentioned it in passing in the Gengarite suspect discussion thread, and post it again (or a slightly tweaked version), and go into a little more detail.

1. The move/item/ability/whatever in question removes the element of skill needed to succeed in a battle, to a point where skill is no longer a significant factor in the result of the battle.
2. The move/item/ability/whatever in question does not contribute positively and in a meaningful way to the metagame.

I realize that both of these conditions are fairly subjective, but at the same time, existing clauses are fairly clear cut in terms of how they fit in with these rules. Species clause is a little bit more special - but I don't think anyone thinks that it is unnecessary. Without this clause (especially in Ubers), players can double up on powerful and versatile Pokemon (like Arceus, which can assume multiple roles and multiple typings), and make teambuilding significantly more restricted - a negative impact on the metagame. Swagger, OHKO and Moody clause all place the fate of both the user and their opponent into the hands of luck. The game is ultimately decided by coin flips or dice rolls, and skill no longer plays a significant factor in the result of the game. These elements of the game are highly luck based, something that in many ways, detracts from a game, or in this case, the Ubers metagame - again, a negative impact. Sleep Clause makes it extremely difficult and frustrating to play against sleep users/abusers like Darkrai, and well it isn't horribly hard to put a Darkrai on your team and click Dark Void a lot - skill is removed from the equation in this way.

How does Gengarite fit into this? Firstly: does it make skill no longer important in a game? It can be argued both ways, but personally, I think that skill is still a very important factor in effectively using Mega Gengar. Its inherent frailty means that great caution and care must be used in order to make sure it does its job to the best of its abilities. This means good predictions, possible double switching, good knowledge of possible movesets (i.e. knowing that ttar might run pursuit and chople berry) as well as making sure to take advantage of any and all opportunities you may get - not always easy for a newer, less skilled player. Another (anecdotal) point of evidence - when laddering for reqs, I used a team that was fairly mega gar weak: Shuckle/Mega Luc/Xern/Yveltal/Deo-a/Grassceus. As you can probably see, Gengar trades one for one versus more or less any mon on the team, barring Deo-a. Neither Xern nor Grassceus had any sort of coverage for Mega Gar. Yet, whenever I faced Mega Gengar (especially Level 56's RMT), I usually came out on top, despite my glaring weakness to this Pokemon. Why? Simply put - the players using the Pokemon did not use it to its full potential - it needs skill and knowledge to be used effectively.

As for the second point: does it contribute positively and meaningfully to the metagame? I believe so. It has a unique typing, a unique toolset that does something that more or less no other Pokemon have. In my eyes, it is merely another threat in a long list of threats that already exist in a long list of threats - but it is a threat that is unique, that does something that no other Pokemon does, and is another mon that requires careful thought and good plays to get around. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

 

[BKC]

Gengarite: Ban

The reason I'm voting to ban Gengarite is because the ability to pick and choose what you want dead depending on your team with such ridiculous ease is absolutely horrific. It takes the game entirely out of the player facing it's hands. Depending on how your team attempts to deal with it, it can fuck you over with its set and then there's absolutely nothing you can do. I abused it almost the entire way to reqs and it was unbelievably easy to score kills with against even above average/good players, often time I netted one kill but with threats like Xerneas then that one kill's all you need since there are very limited counters to these big guys and stacking up on them is going to make you very weak to other things.

 

[Swami]

NO BAN

I would like to first start off by saying that the tier is a ban list for stuff like Mega Gengar. However, that is not why my vote is for no ban, moderators. I'm voting no ban simply because it can be played around unlike other shadow tag users. The mega evolution turn really screws it up. You can switch it in on a grass Arceus. However, by the time it actually mega evolves they've already switched something to beat it like Yveltal. Mega Gengar is good. It's definitely something to prepare for just like any other threat in the tier. There's no denying that. I just don't believe that its abilities as a trapper are as broken as other players make it out to be.

 

[Hewhoamareismyself]

In my opinion, Gengarite should be banned, and Shadow Tag should be looked at as well.

In an overcentralized meta like Ubers, teams are usually made up of 2 of 3 Arceus, Xerneas, or Kyogre, set up in a couple different ways, and a couple defensive pivots, things to fill up offensive holes, a suicide lead, or just something that can kill one of those easily. Not many teams have more than one check to every common offensive threat, otherwise the threats wouldn't be terribly common. When you have the ability with Shadow Tag to remove any one of your pokemon from the picture, even if it only works about half the time, factoring in mindgame 50-50s between taunting and Dbonding straight away, can rip a hole in a team quite easily. Because this isn't a counter, it's a counter to every counter. The only thing stopping Xerneas (and sometimes Ekiller if I play really well, uncommon) from tearing a new one in my team is Mawile. Any player with a brain would be able to tell by looking at my team that's most of the reason why it's there, and any player with a brain and Mega Gengar would be able to trap something I need to finish the game strong. I could switch out of M. Mawile, but I lose a pokemon that can reliably sweep up the remainder of their team in the late game. If he/she is using Gothitelle, for instance, that chance is a lot worse. (personally I feel Gothitelle is the worst offender of Shadow Tag)

I feel like the Shadow Tag/D.Bond instance turns into an OHKO move with a slightly higher accuracy. Others argue that there's skill involved, but I'm not wholly certain.

 

[Erebyssial]

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

Just going to copy what I said in a post if that's ok, I'd basically be repeating myself

Nothing has convinced me that Mega Gengar/Shadow Tag is truly breaking the tier or horribly cancerous to the metagame. To me it's nowhere near uncompetitive enough to ban from the tier that's supposed to be full of broken shit. Getting rid of things like Swagger makes sense because it just turns the game into a dice roll, but trapping things with Shadow Tag takes at least some degree of thinking and strategy to use and that should keep it within the boundaries of what's allowed in Ubers. Gengar itself isn't a flawless Pokemon either, between needing a turn to mega evolve and all the powerful, bulky attackers in the tier that scare it away or hit it hard, it doesn't always manage to do its job easily and consistently as something broken in Ubers should be able to do. Again I think this kind of flaw keeps it within the boundaries of Ubers.

And while it's been said before and some people find it irrelevant, I really don't like the idea of a Pokemon being unplayable in every singles tier (yes megas are basically individual forms, let's not kid ourselves) as it does ruin one of the main purposes of the tier system. Maybe when some incredible 680 BST legendary with the perfect movepool gets Shadow Tag or something that utterly ruins the tier I'd support that precedent being set, but I would hate to see it happen for borderline cases like Mega Gengar. As things are right now, I'd like Ubers to stay as the banlist that only bans things that are either luck based or cause the metagame to actually be unplayable.

 

[DxDeadlockedxS]

To start I'd like to mention that I doubt anyone had a problem that Hugendugen put his family and personal life at a higher priority than Pokemon and I am sorry for your loss.

My vote is against the banning of Gengarite. After battling in over 100 bouts with numerous teams (some including Mega Gengar) there are a few things I have put into consideration with this ban. In a tier obviously crowded with over powerful Pokemon of all different shapes and sizes there's still a few Uber tier Pokemon that even in a broken tier are more broken than others. When I say this I'm thinking about E Killer Arceus, Power Herb Xerneas and with the right support another example is Specs Kyogre. I think it's easy to say that when constructing an Ubers team, one should consider the possibility of running into the "most powerful" powerful Pokemon. I think the same should go for Mega Gengar. When I'm battling I look at the opponent's team first because that is what team preview is for. If a player sees a Gengar on the opposing team I think it's safe to assume that it is holding a Gengarite stone. Given that there are other possibilities of mega Pokemon while a normal Gengar is on the other team. However, just like seeing an Xernias or an Arceus I find it to be common sense to proceed with extreme caution, so that a mega Gengar can't do it's job. What I'm trying to say is Pokemon is a competitive game and I think it just comes down to the fact that people need to be able to overcome a challenge just like power herb Xernias. It's easier to get rid of something than it is to try your best to play around it and win. Prediction is of the utmost importance in Ubers because of these types of Pokemon. In conclusion, it is because people have overcome challenges before that I think Gengarite should stay in the Uber meta-game.

 

[AlphaNeria]

My condolences Hugendugen.

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

Most of my reasoning is here. Mega Gengar can be played around (even though this is unreliable, I feel mind reading is an essential part of playing Pokemon), it is difficult to mega evolve against many Pokemon (switching Mega Gengar in against many of the top Pokemon such as Mewtwo, Blaziken and offensive Xerneas is suicide, for example), is hurt by team preview (warns the opponent to be careful with his Pokemon that are weak to Mega Gengar), takes a turn to Mega Evolve (gives opponent one get-out-of-jail-free card), takes skill to use (one has to safely mega evolve Mega Gengar, force the target to switch in, then trap it without the opponent double switching out), and takes up the mega evolve slot (which means no Mega Blaziken, no MMX / MMY, etc). Furthermore most Pokemon that are trapped by Mega Gengar can beat or at least force it to Destiny Bond if they so wish, either by equipping Shed Shell or, for those that can't equip Shed Shell, by using coverage moves such as Earthquake or Dark Pulse. I also find many of the reasons cited by the pro-ban side to be really just an argument for a ban because Mega Gengar is too strong under all the fancy wording ("but it could use Focus Blast to kill Tyranitar that's trying to trap it" -- implying that if Mega Gengar didn't learn Focus Blast, it wouldn't be ban worthy). One indication of this is how we've had Shadow Tag for generations, yet it's only now -- after the nerf to Shadow Tag by allowing Ghost-types to switch out of it to boot -- that we have a suspect test. Since Pokemon such as Xerneas and Arceus are arguably even stronger than Mega Gengar, and it's already been stated we will not be suspecting those, banning Gengarite is contradictory. Finally a ban on Gengarite is essentially banning Mega Gengar, and I find it disturbing to ban a Pokemon from Ubers. That's almost like creating a new "too-uber-to-be-uber" tier above the Uber tier. If someone's favourite Pokemon is Mega Gengar, he would be unable to use it literally anywhere. I'd still accept a Mega Gengar ban if it were dominating the scene, but the usage statistics are clear that Mega Gengar is very far from being the dominant force, with Xerneas by far the most common. Do not ban Gengarite.

 

[shrang]

Don't ban


So, I've probably been one of the more outspoken anti-ban players, and I'm pretty most people know what my arguments are, so I'll just summarise my points. These are mostly to refute pro-ban arguments, which is pretty much what I need to do since the burden of proof should be with those arguing for a ban. Also, I'm going to address Shadow Tag and Mega Gengar at the same time since they follow very similar reasoning. So, the main arguments of the pro-ban camp are (minus the dumb arguments like "Mega Gengar makes stall cry"):



Mega Gengar (and Shadow Tag) removes the choice to switch:


Probably the argument most people are going with. I've highlighted why this does not make it uncompetitive and ban-worthy because while yes, it does remove your choice of switching for 1-2 turns (which is what I mostly experienced), this is not enough to invalidate every other choice that you've made in a game. In short, if someone beats you by using Shadow Tag to remove an important Pokemon and sweeping with its counter removed, that "choice of switching" in which you were denied was one turn in a larger scheme of a game. Just because you've got a key Pokemon trapped does not mean you've automatically lost the game. I think my post here in response to Dice explains what I mean. Yes, Shadow Tag takes away your choice to switch for 1-2 turns and puts you at a great disadvantage because of it. However, just because it increases someone's chances of winning does not mean it is causative for that person's win. Plenty of things can happen (minus hax and choking) between a successful trapping from Mega Gengar and a successful execution of whatever strategy that Mega Gengar has made it easier for (secondary checks, getting outpredicted, counter-sweep, etc).


Also, just a smaller note, just because Mega Gengar has prevented the Pokemon from switching, does not mean it can actually get rid of whatever Pokemon that it's there to remove either. You still have Taunt/Destiny Bond 50/50s (which are no different from choosing your Ground or your Fairy against Zekrom, for example), Shed Shell on select Pokemon, VoltTurn/Baton Pass, Dragon Tail, or Pokemon that simply don't care (Ghosts, MMY, Deo-A, etc). This is not to mention that for the case of Mega Gengar, it needs to Mega evolve to even get Shadow Tag, and that one turn can be incredibly precious. If you team is used in a way that Gengar cannot even mega evolve without risk of getting killed, then it's pretty much a non-threat.


Mega Gengar creates 50/50s in switches because people are afraid to switch their important checks:


I'm outlined in depth why this argument is flawed. Basically, there is nothing fundamentally different between the 50/50s that Shadow Tag brings to the table and other 50/50s that occur in the game already, for example Specs Reshiram's Blue Flare vs Groudon - do you switch to your Steel/Fairy and get trashed by BLue Flare or do you switch in Palkia to get trashed by Draco Meteor. Fundamentally, there is no difference apart from the timing of the 50/50, since both 50/50s would yield a dead Pokemon if you chose the wrong switch. The other problem with the 50/50 argument is again, the fact that there is no causative relationship between that Shadow Tag 50/50 and the result of the game, even if the correlation is greater due to increased odds.


My thoughts:


I think the biggest problem with pro-ban arguments is that they are confusing what happens in a single (or multiple) turns and what happens overall in a game. If we compare with the rest of the other clauses that we've banned for being uncompetitive, a recurring theme is that what happens is because of the uncompetitive factor, things accumulate and causatively influence the outcome of a game in the favour of the person using it. It's a bit hard to say in one sentence, but I'll explain what I mean. Also, luck is a big factor in pretty much every ban we've had, even though it is not the core issue of why we banned it. I'll basically go through the individual clauses (apart from Species) and explain why Shadow Tag is different:


OHKO Clause:

Basically a luck-centred ban. What the argument is that a "switch" to a counter can be rendered null because of a 30% chance that the Pokemon is killed. Again, it revolves around a coin flip. However, what I believe is the real uncompetitive part of OHKO Clause is that you can win a game purely on these coinflips. A Scarf Kyogre can waltz in and spam Sheer Cold and win the game just by doing that alone (trust me, I've seen it happen a few times). The fact that you can get a counter removed for another Pokemon by baiting in the counter and winning a 30/70 coinflip was not the thing that made OHKO truly broken. If it was just that one counter, it's a similar position to Shadow Tag. You can still go on without that counter. You cannot win, however, if you lady luck hated you and had Sheer Cold hit you too many times in which you were essentially "lucked out".


Moody/Swagger Clause:

Again, a luck-centred ban. It is the accumulation of multiple turns of luck that makes you lose a game, not just a Pokemon. See what the difference between this and Shadow Tag is? With Moody and Swagger, you lose because essentially you are playing with coinflips only, and therefore ALL decisions made in the game (or a large percentage) are rendered moot by luck, while Shadow Tag only restricts you to ONE decision (or maybe 2-3 or slightly more, but is nowhere near in the scale of Moody/Swagger).


(We used to have and we should still have) Evasion Clause: See Moody/Swagger


Sleep Clause:

Probably the one closest to Shadow Tag in the sense that it's not purely a luck ban. I still stand to reason that luck very much underlines a lot of why sleep is broken (see here). It's a long tl;dr, but the main points are still again, 1) sleep has major elements (Sleep Talk is random, sleep counter is random, speed-ties and accuracy if you take away Sleep Talk and sleep counter), and 2) Sleep was strong because it could disable everything on your team. Unlike Shadow Tag which traps and usually removes 1 Pokemon a game, Sleep disables every Pokemon. So, Shadow Tag is focused, while sleep is more "global" in terms of a game. Again bring back to what I was talking about before, the difference is ST affects a few select turns and decisions, while Sleep affects all or a large majority of turns and decisions. THAT is what makes Sleep uncompetitive and what makes ST not.


Species Clause: Really don't know why we have Species Clause apart from the fact that make sure the game isn't weird af, but I can't see any competitive/uncompetitive reason


Endless Battle Clause: Like nuclear weapons, Endless Battle is kind of like a situation where no-one wins, and therefore that completely contradicts the meaning of the word "competitive"



Other things to bring up:


- Shadow Tag removing things is not something new at all. We have had trapping ever since gen 2, and it really took off in gen 4. However, there have been no problems with it since now. We had Magnet Pull/Arena Trap/Pursuit in OU/UU, and Wobbuffet in DPP was arguably even better at taking down threats than Mega Gengar or Gothitelle in XY because unlike Mega Gengar, it did not need to mega evolve, nor could you see that it was coming because there was no team preview. There may have been some whispers about wanting to ban Wobbuffet back in gen 4, but the overwhelming consensus was that it was not uncompetitive in gen 4. I know people are arguing that Mega Gengar is far more versatile than Wobbuffet back then, but in terms of actual ability to take down its threats and create opportunities for teammates, I really think that Wobbuffet was around the same level, if not better. If we didn't ban Wobbuffet back then, then I see no reason to ban Mega Gengar now.

- Reciprocity - you can also trap your opponent's key Pokemon with Shadow Tag. So, in the end, the one who actually executes his strategy first (ie the one who played better) is still the one who wins. I think that's still competitive. You might say that that would mean the game would revolve around Shadow Tag, and if that is the case, why does it matter? This is an overcentralisation argument, not one for "uncompetitive". The metagame revolves around Xerneas and Arceus and Kyogre and other threats. Why should Shadow Tag be treated differently?

 

[-Leon-]

ban mega gengar its over centralizing in meta and also nullifies switching, a very basic mechanic of the game that makes it competitive. makes a lot of game matchup reliant too

 

[malefic]

Gengarite: Ban

Reasoning: Gengarite confers on Gengar the ability Shadow Tag, which prevents opposing Pokemon from switching out. The freedom to switch is one of the main factors defining competitive Pokemon as a skill-based game. Shadow Tag Mega Gengar subverts this by punishing players excessively for their mispredictions, in that their Pokemon (say, a bulky Fairy-type) is irreversibly trapped. Many such situations are, at their heart, purely 50/50s — do you let your healthy defensive Xerneas stay in on the opponent's Life Orb Yveltal and risk a switch to Mega Gengar, which traps and kills it easily, or do you switch out, potentially letting a teammate get maimed by Yveltal when you had a perfectly good check in on it? That Gengar takes a turn to Mega Evolve mitigates this issue somewhat, but it is exceptionally easy to do so vs slower, bulkier teams.

Countermeasures to this, such as having a Pursuit user such as Tyranitar on the aforementioned stall teams are viable options, but note that the Gengar user can tailor its moveset to nullify one or more of such strategies depending on team needs. For example, a moveset of Will-O-Wisp/Rest/Reflect Type/Taunt allows Gengar to defeat common Pursuit trappers in Tyranitar and Scizor with ease.

The use of a Shed Shell on defensive Pokemon and Dark Pulse on certain Arceus formes are other examples of adaptations that are beginning to propagate. Unfortunately, these are downright suboptimal options. Dark Pulse (Punishment for Gothitelle) on support Arceus formes is virtually useless outside of hitting Shadow Tag users, and takes up a moveslot that can otherwise be dedicated to a move that sees much more general use, such as Will-O-Wisp. The same goes for Shed Shell on defensive Pokemon, which have to give up the general utility of Leftovers for an item that sees highly specific use. That being said, these are certainly necessary adaptations if Mega Gengar stays with us in Ubers.

In sum, I am advocating a Gengarite ban so we can steer clear of 1) an uncompetitive metagame element in Shadow Tag, and 2) unhealthy metagame centralization that stems from 1).

 

[ZoroDark]

no ban
i don't really see how gothitelle and mega gengar are different from other big threats like kyogre and xerneas. of course they don't allow switches which is a huge difference, but the way you deal with stag abusers and other big threats comes down to the same thing in practice: you have to beat them in the team builder. if you don't want to lose to mega gengar you need to run a pursuit trapper (ttar, scizor, aegis lash, spiritomb which isn't any more niche than gastrodon or some geoxern checks). if you don't want to lose to gothitelle you can prepare for that in the team builder just as well by minimizing the amount of pokemon it can trap on your team. you can run roar palkia (which is the same as running twave palkia to not allow xern set ups) or pursuit mons again to trap gothitelle after it trapped something from you. if you're desperate, you could always run punishment on arceus which suddenly turns the table on those match ups and makes it a very favorable one for you. anyway the last example is a little far-fetched, but stag abusers aren't any different from other powerhouses in that you can and should take measures against them while building a team.

 

[Mega-Swampert]

Gengarite: BAN


Well, I still feel kinda unsure, but here goes.


Gengarite is being tested because of its possible non competitiveness in relation to the ubers metagame. So, we need to see whether or not it is no competitiveness. Now, this really depends on a few key things. Firstly 1) what is no competitiveness. And 2) how noncompetitive does something need to be to be banned?

First of 1) what is no competitiveness?

Well, as I like to do, before making a straight up definition, looking at examples of things that are or aren't noncompetitive helps. We also have to keep in mind, that what may be considered noncompetitively other tiers may not be by ubers standards. Looking at you evasion clause. So, what is something that is uncompetitive? Well, as Hugen said,

. There is a precedent for removing aspects of the metagame that are almost entirely luck based or incredibly noncompetitive, for instance the OHKO, Moody and Swagger Clauses.


Well, straight up, all the clauses are "almost entirely luck based or incredibly noncompetitive" aspects of the metagame. From this, I can see that things that use luck to make a skillful player lose to a less skillful player (Swagger, Moody, OHKO) or use another element (Sleep clause). So, now it should be clear that non competitiveness: an element that tilts the game in favour of the player who uses that element, or places the game in the hands of the RNG.


Now, on to 2). Well, now how noncompetitive does something need to be banned? Let's see. Swagger was banned due to the RNG making decisions, as were Moody and OHKO. Sleep was banned due to being able to simply put a mon to sleep, then as the switch happened, put another mon to sleep until the opponents team was fully sleeped, and then you swept. Even an Idiot could use that. So, the answer to 2) is: the element must sway the game so that a less skilled player can defeat a more skilled player, due to the direct influence of that element.


Now, let’s see how gengarite matches up. Well, the big question here is: Does Gengarite sway the game so that a less skilled player can defeat a more skilled player, due to Gengarite? I'd have to say yes. Why? Because by using gengarite, a player can trap a Pokémon essential to that match up, or team structure, and remove it, which opens the way for another mon to sweep. Or, if a player can predict this, then a player can use gengarite to play all sorts of mind games: refer to C allstar vs MM2, somewhere in the suspect thread. It's relatively simply to use Gengarite, bring in on mon that traps, Mevo, then destroy. Pursuit trapping does help the player versing gengarite, but this goes into 50 50s, where the gengarite user can DBond, and remove the pursuit user, or pack a coverage move to deal with the pursuit user. It can even run reflect type or perish trap to deal with both the pursuit user, and the mon it was targeting.


So, in conclusion, Gengarite should be banned, due to the ability it has to sway the game in favour of a less skilled player.

Hide

Uncompetitive is not a word. It's noncompetitive.

 

[Aquaslash]

I'm going to quote what I posted in the suspect thread, as my view hasn't changed, and I think it's solid enough reasoning. It's actually three paragraphs, but I can't really say it in one.

The thing about Gengar is that in order to effectively use him, you have to actually know what you're doing. It's not on the same vein as Swagger where literally all you do is swagger, foul play until dead and then send out a choice ditto if they don't kill themselves from hax. It's not like Moody and Evasion passing where you roll for that one evasion boost or get that double team out, and you're night untouchable. It's not even like OHKO where roll the dice for that move to actually hit. Unlike Gengar, against these things the opposing player is literally powerless to stop the madness. You can make all the right plays against OHKO/Evasion/Moody/swagger and still lose. You can play like a complete idiot with those strategies and still win.

Meanwhile, poor playing with Gengar will get him killed (again), due to his incredible frailty. You can't just waltz in there and try to trap anything. There's a handful of things that outspeed you, even with the mega, and there's also a whole type that is immune to your bullcrap. Extreme Killer Arceus, one of the most devastating and fearsome sweepers in the game, is running an EV spread to specifically target and kill you before you can do anything. A lot of the times you have to use tricky double switches to even get in without getting massacred.

Seems like basic BS right? Well that's the point. That basic BS is what stops Mega Gengar from being uncompetitive. Is his strategy extremely OP and limiting to teambuilding? Of course it is, but how many things in ubers AREN'T like that? Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-oh, Arceus, Mega Kangaskhan. These are things that you HAVE to take into account while teambuilding if you want to have any chance of winning. Hell, even Zekrom is threatening enough that an entire team core exists just to force his most popular sets into 50/50s. They're still all beatable by good teambuilding and smart playing. I feel that Gengar is on an even playing field with these, and thus not uncompetitive and shouldn't be banned.

Gengarite: DO NOT BAN

 

[Knuckstrike]

Gengarite: Do not ban

During the suspect test I've been consistently battling around the top 1400's-1500's (which is about top 100 to 200) and what I've noticed is that the average guy I've battled did not have the power to put a lot of pressure on my team with gengar-mega. To be fair my tactics weren't champion level either so I also had to watch quite a few battles from better battlers to look at how much influence gengar can have in a match and I believe I've gotten enough info now to have a grounded opinion on shadow tag/gengarite. I've also seen people complain and discuss on how many threats gengar makes unviable and how that can dent the diversity of the ubers tier but to be honest I think it might not be such a bad idea. I'd like to see the tier change first and people actually using different sets because of the new threat instead of saying how, because their old arceus, blissey and chansey sets don't work anymore, gengar-mega must banned. I am personally a fan of using different playstyles but I'd rather have some of these playstyles become less viable than to start banning stuff from ubers. And maybe one of my strongest points for not banning the ghost and/or shadow tag is that the strategic element it gives actually feels like a lot of fun to me which I believe should be the main purpose of pokemon battles.

 

[Hack]

I will vote to not ban Gengarite from Ubers.

As strange as it might seem coming from someone very influential and pretty open minded about changing the tier, I must say that this test didn't show me the answers I was looking for, it rather opened my perspective of what an ideal metagame should or should not have. Let me just start by saying that a big basis of my reasoning to be against this ban is because the testing took a direction that could be described as shooting oneself in the foot. A core idea of an actual ban in Ubers was too link the elements to enjoyment and competitiveness of the tier, henceforth what would be analyzed was pretty clear. Shadow Tag. Not. Simply. Gengarite. As a relevant player of the very highest form of play and teambuilding in this tier I do not think it is acceptable to separate Gengarite from Gothitelle or even Wobbufett- it is Shadow Tag that has to be looked at as a whole and from my experience and especially Gothitelle is a very prevalent Pokemon in high level play. Analyzing and banning Gengarite isn't actually going to make as much of a better metagame as Shadow Tag still exists in the form of equally as uncompetitive mons. What we were out to find out was to (partly) cure the cause of of imbalanced match up mechanics, something I think cannot be done by banning Gengarite alone. A side note is that the suspect discussion turned into a total buzzword fest contra irrellevant players talking about Gengarite as a Pokemon ban. This is tangential and is a cause of the poor set-up of the tests itself, it was very confusing and steered the discussion into a poor direction. What Gengar can/can't do in terms of power, bulk, movepool etc. is totally irrelevant when compared to what its ability grants it to do. Shadow Tag should have been the focal point of discussion, but this could only be properly achieved by having a suspect test for exactly that, not Gengarite itself.

At first I was very inclined to ban Gengarite for the sake of having a test for the rest of the Shadow Tag mons, something that was a more sensible option to test in the first place. Gengarite is only a partly the problem, but being partly a problem isn't enough to justify banning it as it doesn't entirely solve the issue. However, as discussions sparked further, it seemed that my early notion of the inherent flaws of this type of test were agreed with by players of varying skills and moderator Melee Mewtwo promised a test for Shadow Tag as a whole later on, something I am looking forward too. If this option didn't exist I might still have been voting not to ban but I guess that's a story for another time.

A quick summary of my points and why I ended up with the conclusion I did:

• Shadow Tag as a whole is more important to test than Gengarite alone.
• The set-up of the test lacked representitive discussion or results due to bad set-up (case of the above point).
• Agreement upon Shadow Tag test as a whole gave me no grounds to vote ban due to above points.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Yay for stealing lines off the internet.

The tiers serve a dual purpose. The first is to promote balanced gameplay and the second is to create an environment where weaker Pokemon can be used.
Ubers however are Pokemon that are considered too powerful for the OU metagame. The Uber tier is not meant to be a balanced tier, and therefore isn't the main metagame.
The entirety of competitive Pokemon strategy is focused on damage -- the ability to deal damage, withstand damage, and avoid damage. Damage is the end-all-be-all of battling.
Prediction is one of the keys to a successful game, but it should not be heavily relied upon. No one can predict with even close to perfect accuracy, and even a single missed prediction often means that one of your Pokemon will be KOed. And the risks for gengar user is pretty high as one mispredict often results in a dead gengar as it is frail and cannot withstand more than one hit when switching in.
Although it may be difficult to comprehend at first, it is important to remember that directly countering every threat in the game is impossible. Even if the X/Y metagame was not filled with more powerful sweepers than in any previous generation, the metagame is constantly changing, and players will quickly find ways to abuse common trends. For this reason, there are in fact very few Pokemon that can always be directly countered at all.Pokemon is more than just countering ,it is possible to play around any kind of threat with a well built team, through planning, prediction, and custom sets.
If the above conditions were not met by any specific entity , be it an item , a move, a pokemon , a playstyle and such , they would undoubtedly be deemed noncompetitive .
And this applies very aptly to Ubers which is teeming with overpowered forces with no direct counters , primary reason being why they are in this tier.
Firstly ,Mega Gengar ,as you might have noted, does not break any of the standards I have mentioned above.
Secondly , is the one turn it requires before it megavolves into the threat it actually poses. This turn is very crucial as it lets you
1)send in something which can kill it or something you are willing to let go down with it. ( akin to how we "sack" certain mons which have fulfilled their roles/deadweight ---> This makes it apparent that "losing a mon/ forced to let something die " isn't limited to Mega Gengar)
2) pursuit trappers ( obvious)
3) scarfed users ( again , obvious)
4) ghost type pokemon
The very definition of Ubers implies that most(not all) of the pokemon residing in this tier have little to no direct counters and "playstyles" ( horrible term) hinge on playing around said Ubers.


Switching.
As I have already noted , Switching / being unable to switch does not make pokemon
competitive or non competitive.
It is merely one of the many mechanics such as typing/output formula ( for damage)/items and many layers of depth in speed / priority / status and so on.
Gengar certainly does choose what it switches into ( as do you choose what to send in against gengar the first time gengar enters the field. ) Upon mega evolution , gengar can trap and take down one mon with it almost always. But then , this isn't a distinctive trait limited to Gengar as many ubers "take down one mon with them " purely due to the sheer power of the tier. This doesn't push gengar over the edge , nor make it non competitive.

Team SupportThe team support Gengar offers is tremendous . This is undisputed. What is meant to be debated is if this support makes it truly noncompetitive. To this , I'd say no. Gengar is certainly capable of taking down a minimum of one pokemon with it. Therefore it removes one of the "checks" you run on your team to prepare for the Overcentralized threats in Ubers. However , this trait is not limited to gengar as a mispredict also causes un-calculated losses and you find yourself bereft of a check you need to play safely against the opponent. This is more of a fundamental teambuilding flaw ( impossible to counter every threat with six mons) than a point highlighting the nature of competitiveness gengar brings to the field.

I will not be addressing poor arguments on over centralization as that doesn't apply to Ubers; Kyogre/ExtremeKiller Arceus/Xerneas etc etc are the very definition of 'Over-centralization' .

Finally, there is enough leeway to exploit when facing Gengar and it shows no traits which pushes it into the selective non competitive list of bans Ubers has. ( OHKO , Swagger , Moody, being the most prominent ones )

I vote No Ban

 

[Aidin]

Gengarite: Do not ban

I do believe that mega gengaris uncompetitite. I think it is as the single metagames is based on a few important principles. One of these is switching. A lot of skill goes into deciding whether it is time to sack a pokemon, to switch it out etc. Shadow tag literally stops you from doing this, ie, it takes away mechanics from the game and thereby removing skill (mechanics = skill since it takes skill to work with these mechanics). Good examples of this are deciding to sack something, deciding to keep something as fodder etc.

Megagengar forces you to deal with this by double switching, which is, as dice put it, "glorified guesswork". it is luck based, and does not require any skill.

However, I do not believe this is due to mega gegnar itself, but only because of its ability, shadow tag. Shadow tag is the uncompetitive part, as goth and wob can pose exactly the same problems and should therefore be banned, instead of just gengarite.

 

[Darkdevil]

Mega Gengar is quite a difficult pokemon here, he was quickly banned from ou, some thought that this would have ended gengar "career" but here we go again, to think that such a pokemon exists, something that destroy the meaning of uber as we officially know now. But yes, there you have it, mega gengar is "too uber to be uber". I beleive that the definition of broken is "something that stops the player experience, and ability to choose during battles" mega gengar is exactly this. You might argue that Dugtrio, magnezone and Gothitelle do this too, but only to an extent, magnezone can only trap steel type, and he doesn't counter all of them, case in point excadrill, dugtrio is weak, frail, and does not have the bunch of resistances gengar has, and of course, the great movepool. Gothitelle traps everyone except ghosts just like megagar yeah, and while I won't deny that I'm all in for a shadow tag clause, or simply put, create an alternative tiers where you can use mega 'mons and be done with it. It's undeniable that gengar is truly a level apart gothi. not only gothitelle's resistances are few, he does not have gengar's speed, vast special attack, DESTINY BOND, and to an extend, movepool too, since sludge wave is such a great xerneas killer. There is no downside when you add gengar to a team, even if your not such a great battler, gengar thanks to its great movepool, taunt and destiny bond will always get a kill, probably a kill that might change the entire course of the battle, and this is where the problem lies, you, as a battler cannot control this situation. You're just in for the heck of it, just like luck, your skill has no control on this, you just have to suck it up, attacking yourself on your only hope that the first turn gengar is in he doesn't have shadow tag, a small consolation. And even if you use shit like shed shell blissey, what do you hope to accomplish when megagar has taunt and destinybond? Are they even safe switch in against this thing in the first place? Shed shell is an horrible, detrimentla item, the fact that it is used just for this guy, is a big red herring. it forces people to run shit like shed shell blissey, and even when they do that? mggar can just fuck over the enemy team with moves like taunt and destiny bond. Long story short: mega gengar is unhealthy for the uber emtagame under the support rule, I'm all for a shadow tag clause, or mega pokemons be used on an alternative tier but since this is discussion is to ban or not gengarite, my stance is BAN

 

[StirlingArcher]

Gengarite: Do Not Ban

I am personally voting do not ban for several reasons. Based on what I've read and my experiences laddering, I really don't believe that Mega Gengar is broken in the context of Ubers where essentialy everything is broken and one wrong move can often times mean you're toast with the high number of the overpowered threats. I know that a lot of people who are pro-ban argue that Mega Gengar inhibits teambuilding, but honestly I've always felt that Ubers team building has always been somewhat restricted/formulaic given all of the bulky set up sweepers and mons with crazy high offensive stats, and that Mega Gengar hasn't really changed that. Kyogre is restrictive. Xerneas is restrictive. If you don't have something to take a +2 Moonblast, your team will probably lose a lot. I think that is okay in Ubers though. I understand that for example if you put a Xerneas counter in your team your opponent can use Mega Gengar to trap it and take it out so that Xerneas can sweep later, but I think that actually executing this properly requires a significant amount of prediction, skill, and often times very bold high risk/reward plays that really don't always work out very well for the Gengar user since it can't switch into attacks very well, and therefore I don't see it as uncompetitive. I know that many people may consider this the inferior argument, but I think this part actually very important. I really, really hate the idea of banning an entire Pokemon from Smogon's whole metagame. Ubers has always been the tier that's been sold to people as, "Upset about OU bans? Play Ubers!". While I think Ubers is great and there's many more reasons to play it than that, I think it would be not only hypocritical on a certain level, but just feel very anti-fun. I feel very strongly that no pokemon is too broken for Ubers and that it is supposed to primarily function as a ban list and secondarily as a tier. I hope that what I've said is sufficiently intelligent to get counted, thank you for reading!

 

[Scubasage]

Ban

I feel that Gengarite is both Broken and Uncompetitive, and that while being broken on its own isn't enough to get something banned from Ubers, being uncompetitive can be. Usually, though, uncompetitive elements only get banned if they are strong enough to become an issue. That is why uncompetitive things like Sand Attack aren't banned, because they are too weak to really make an impact on the game. Mega Gengar, however, through typing, movepool and stats, is anything but weak. Shadow Tag, the ability of Mega Gengar, is uncompetitive on its own, and when combined with how powerful (or "broken") Mega Gengar is, it's fairly clear to me that this is quite a detriment to the meta and has to go.

 

[Melodic Dystopia]

No ban
To be honest, I think the main problem is Shadow Tag. Banning Gengarite and subsequently Gengar-Mega will not solve any of the problems discussed in the thread, as Goth can just swoop in and destroy balance teams with STag. First of all, I think no Pokemon should be banned from Ubers. The simple reason is that it's the highest tier and to retain its integrity, we must only ban things that damage the game (Swagger, OHKO, etc.) Second, some people say that Shadow Tag does damage the game by limiting one's option, and to that I say that it is easy to some extent to play around and predict Shadow Tag (Ghost types, Shed Shell, U and VoltTurn, etc.) I say to some extent because of course Shadow Tag and Gengar will counter your no-damage-moves Lugia, that's its job. What you as a trainer are meant to do is know when GengarMega will show it's face (and not use no-damage-moves anything.) The appearance of GeoXern shocked everyone, but people found ways to play around that. I believe players gave no time to find ways to counter Shadow Tag and/or Gengarite, got scared, and called for a ban. Third and finally, this may sound odd, but people say that Shadow Tag and Gengar cause 50/50s. The whole game is a 50/50: you win or you lose. You can't complain about 50/50s in a game that is a 50/50 itself. In conclusion, yeah I guess that's it.