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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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I don't really think one directly outclasses the other, but Florges is actually a pretty interesting topic (for me at least) because to be completely honest, I've always found it rather underwhelming and I legitimately don't understand why it gets so much hype. Here's why:
First off, I've always considered the list of stuff this thing is actually capable of checking to be really, really overexaggerated. Frankly, I really just don't get where people get the idea that Florges walls so much of the meta when to be blunt, it doesn't. Florges's lopsided defenses are a pretty big deciding factor in this: it has massive special bulk but simply lacks the necessary resistances on the special side to properly wall plenty of common wallbreakers / sweepers like Chandelure, Houndoom, PZ, etc while basically leaving it at the mercy of others such as the Nidos, Victini, and Roserade. And while I do realize that most of these guys are "supposed" to break down walls, honestly I think there's a line between being pressured and being utterly shat on, and in a lot of cases, Florges is the latter (which is not ideal for a special wall). Meanwhile, on the physical side of the spectrum, Florges obviously has several great resistances but simply lacks the physical bulk to keep up with many of the stronger physical wallbreaking sets, such as SD / CB Heracross, LO Mienshao (using EonX-'s EV spread, HJK will always 2HKO after Knock Off + U-turn + no Lefties), etc. In fact, out of all the Pokémon currently in UU by usage and / or S and A ranks, Florges is only capable of ~reliably~ walling the following (offensive) threats: Electric-types barring CM Raikou, Mega Blastoise, Kingdra, Noivern, Kyurem (barring random Iron Heads), Machamp, and Scrafty (none of which are terribly difficult to wall / beat by other means). It soft-checks a lot more things, but something that can only soft-check a majority of threats (plus factoring the large list of stuff that it outright loses to) doesn't justify being so high imo.
It's also extremely easy to prepare for. I certainly won't deny that answers to Florges are mandatory on all teams, but frankly they're so easy to come by that it doesn't actually end up restricting or limiting teambuilding by much. Checks or just general ways to overwhelm it are plentiful (Steel-types, most Fire-types, Poison-types, stallbreakers, most bulky setup sweepers, etc.) and none are particularly difficult to fit onto teams. I've literally never had an occasion where I'm "looking" for stuff that can beat Florges, just because of how many there are (idk if that's just the way I teambuild, though I kind of I doubt that :/). There's also the fact of how predictable it is thanks to its limited movepool, so all of the stuff that beats it don't really have to worry too much about it catching you off guard.
Basically, I think that Florges should drop. I personally wouldn't mind it dropping as low as A-, but that might just be personal bias since I really just don't like it in general lol. At the very least though, it should drop to A (esp. if Hydreigon stays since that's definitely a good reason to use it), but I can't agree with it staying in A+.
tl;dr: Florges doesn't wall nearly as much shit as you'd think it would due to its lopsided defenses. It's not difficult to prepare for, as its checks and counters are all over the place and it's very predictable, and I don't think giving it an A+ ranking reflects that.
Now time for the angry replies to start rolling in :]
First off, I've always considered the list of stuff this thing is actually capable of checking to be really, really overexaggerated. Frankly, I really just don't get where people get the idea that Florges walls so much of the meta when to be blunt, it doesn't. Florges's lopsided defenses are a pretty big deciding factor in this: it has massive special bulk but simply lacks the necessary resistances on the special side to properly wall plenty of common wallbreakers / sweepers like Chandelure, Houndoom, PZ, etc while basically leaving it at the mercy of others such as the Nidos, Victini, and Roserade. And while I do realize that most of these guys are "supposed" to break down walls, honestly I think there's a line between being pressured and being utterly shat on, and in a lot of cases, Florges is the latter (which is not ideal for a special wall). Meanwhile, on the physical side of the spectrum, Florges obviously has several great resistances but simply lacks the physical bulk to keep up with many of the stronger physical wallbreaking sets, such as SD / CB Heracross, LO Mienshao (using EonX-'s EV spread, HJK will always 2HKO after Knock Off + U-turn + no Lefties), etc. In fact, out of all the Pokémon currently in UU by usage and / or S and A ranks, Florges is only capable of ~reliably~ walling the following (offensive) threats: Electric-types barring CM Raikou, Mega Blastoise, Kingdra, Noivern, Kyurem (barring random Iron Heads), Machamp, and Scrafty (none of which are terribly difficult to wall / beat by other means). It soft-checks a lot more things, but something that can only soft-check a majority of threats (plus factoring the large list of stuff that it outright loses to) doesn't justify being so high imo.
It's also extremely easy to prepare for. I certainly won't deny that answers to Florges are mandatory on all teams, but frankly they're so easy to come by that it doesn't actually end up restricting or limiting teambuilding by much. Checks or just general ways to overwhelm it are plentiful (Steel-types, most Fire-types, Poison-types, stallbreakers, most bulky setup sweepers, etc.) and none are particularly difficult to fit onto teams. I've literally never had an occasion where I'm "looking" for stuff that can beat Florges, just because of how many there are (idk if that's just the way I teambuild, though I kind of I doubt that :/). There's also the fact of how predictable it is thanks to its limited movepool, so all of the stuff that beats it don't really have to worry too much about it catching you off guard.
Basically, I think that Florges should drop. I personally wouldn't mind it dropping as low as A-, but that might just be personal bias since I really just don't like it in general lol. At the very least though, it should drop to A (esp. if Hydreigon stays since that's definitely a good reason to use it), but I can't agree with it staying in A+.
tl;dr: Florges doesn't wall nearly as much shit as you'd think it would due to its lopsided defenses. It's not difficult to prepare for, as its checks and counters are all over the place and it's very predictable, and I don't think giving it an A+ ranking reflects that.
Now time for the angry replies to start rolling in :]
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Also its not like you need one or the other. If you're running stall/semi stall you can use them both together. To be honest, they compliment each other very well. Florges resists umbreons weaknesses and umbreon can check florges' checks suck as the nidos.
i find it better to use florges+snorlax on stall because if you use both umby and florges on a stall team you tend to be like "ok i have two wishers and clerics that's not terribly necessary", snorlax brings in new resists (a pretty amazing mega doom check and an ok last resort counter) with thick fat and importantly almost no weaknesses so it is a general pokemon that can check nearly all special attackers.
Yeah but I was just saying as neither really put classes the other and they both have their strengths.
I'd personally have Umbreon a tier higher then Florges, the lack of Physical bulk really hurts Florges. Its fairy type is really overstated as well, most things with a fighting, dark,dragon or bug move usually have other means of breaking through it.
For me its an A- at best, the metagame has left it behind to an extent. No chance its better then at least half of that tier.
For me its an A- at best, the metagame has left it behind to an extent. No chance its better then at least half of that tier.
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Florges is cool. It's really cool. It's probably the easiest fucking pokemon to slap onto any team ever that needs a filler mon. It fills a nice amount of roles in one slot, a special wall, a cleric and a wishpasser. This alone should warrant it at least a slot above B+. Unfortunately, that's where the good news ends. Florges is nothing more than basically Chansey lite that trades in bulk for... Moonblast. While not a bad option by any means, in the era of Fire-type physical wallbreakers (hello Victini hello Darmanitan) Florges is basically asking for them to switch in for free with Moonblast resist and seize offensive momentum.
TBH while I'd say it's A rank, Florges has issues with certain special attackers that make her somewhat a pain to use. Nidoking is probably the most obvious example wrt this, but other specially-oriented attackers like Hydreigon still can catch Florges on the switch-in with Iron Tail, and Psyshock is the best move ever.
Most of what I want to say has pretty much been mentioned by other posters above so I'm just gonna get to the point and go A- ranking.
Umbreon is kind of a mixed bag. It has great defenses, and the only thing you really hate is the u-turn weakness: Foul Play is a god-send move for walls as their shitty attack stat is bypassed to deal more damage, even better for Umbreon as he gets STAB on it. Wishpassing+Cleric is cool and all. tbh umbreon is stupidly generic and i dont really have much to say about it, but he does his job well so A rank I suppose.
I don't really think there's much of a difference between these two, as they're versatile enough and perform their jobs well so they are similar in this regard. The difference between their ranking is more of due to the metagame around them, and with the advent of Nidoking and fire type wallbreakers, Florges simply loses out now compared to Umbreon (I'm sure the reverse would be true if this was like a Heracross/Escavalier metagame or something instead of Nidoking/Darmanitan)
TBH while I'd say it's A rank, Florges has issues with certain special attackers that make her somewhat a pain to use. Nidoking is probably the most obvious example wrt this, but other specially-oriented attackers like Hydreigon still can catch Florges on the switch-in with Iron Tail, and Psyshock is the best move ever.
Most of what I want to say has pretty much been mentioned by other posters above so I'm just gonna get to the point and go A- ranking.
Umbreon is kind of a mixed bag. It has great defenses, and the only thing you really hate is the u-turn weakness: Foul Play is a god-send move for walls as their shitty attack stat is bypassed to deal more damage, even better for Umbreon as he gets STAB on it. Wishpassing+Cleric is cool and all. tbh umbreon is stupidly generic and i dont really have much to say about it, but he does his job well so A rank I suppose.
I don't really think there's much of a difference between these two, as they're versatile enough and perform their jobs well so they are similar in this regard. The difference between their ranking is more of due to the metagame around them, and with the advent of Nidoking and fire type wallbreakers, Florges simply loses out now compared to Umbreon (I'm sure the reverse would be true if this was like a Heracross/Escavalier metagame or something instead of Nidoking/Darmanitan)
I would actually argue that Umbreon is slightly better than Florges. Umbreon can actually threaten Physical threats like Darmanitan pretty hard with Foul Play. Florges' Moonblast is strong, but it's hardly a contending point vs. STAB Foul Play.
how can you come to a conclusion that one defensive pokemon is better than the other by looking at their offensive moves? foul play isn't even better than moonblast because it generally hits special attackers, the mons that you're supposed to be walling, for less damage because they don't invest in attack. the biggest example is houndoom which can be 2hkoed by florges but completely sets up on umbreon.
imo florges should be a bit higher than umbreon since they both perform the role of walling most special threats in the meta except umbreon is set up bait for mega houndoom, which is the number one threat in the metagame right now. leaning towards a+ for florges since it's really easy to fit on balance or stall and can wall a lot of shit with little effort while supporting the team while umbreon is basically the same except it should be a for the reason above
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sorrry. i was slightly drunk at the time of writing that. i'll write a response later once i remember where i was going with that.
Anyway, I agree that both should b dropped slightly in their rankings, though Florges should be staying A+ atm due to Hydreigon. I'll write a sober response later.
except most of the time you're hitting switchins with your STAB attack. this makes Umbreon a hell of a lot better imo because foul play makes it so you're kind if stuck between a rock and a hard place. so you switch a special attacker that gets walled into it or a physical attacker that takes upwards of 40% from a RESISTED foul play?
Umbreon threatens a much wider range of pokemon, too. jirachi, metagross, Darmanitan, victini, Chandelure... and it has access to baton pass for pivoting (underrated move on it imo) and moonlight (which will be very relevant when hippowdon rises!)
what florges has over it is beating hydreigon and being able to damage houndoom... but that's not better than deterring a fuckton of common switchins.
Umbreon also pair better with qwilfish, Nidoqueen, Crobat, and suicune, because it has better defensive synergy and passes bigger wishes.
there's no way in fuck florges is /better/ lol
oh and I forgot the fucking nidos and psyshock immunity zzzzz
Umbreon threatens a much wider range of pokemon, too. jirachi, metagross, Darmanitan, victini, Chandelure... and it has access to baton pass for pivoting (underrated move on it imo) and moonlight (which will be very relevant when hippowdon rises!)
what florges has over it is beating hydreigon and being able to damage houndoom... but that's not better than deterring a fuckton of common switchins.
Umbreon also pair better with qwilfish, Nidoqueen, Crobat, and suicune, because it has better defensive synergy and passes bigger wishes.
there's no way in fuck florges is /better/ lol
oh and I forgot the fucking nidos and psyshock immunity zzzzz
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also not to mention that umbreon has ability that actually does something consistent and useful (synchronize on pokes with heal bell is actually quite good, as it allows you to switch into scalds etc, especially if they don't have a cleric of their own), whereas florges' abilities are literally shit and useless.
Florges really isn't the best thing since sliced bread. If has very little physical defense, and even if it resist your STAB, poison jab is a really common TM move. You think it can cockblock your haxorus (during the retest obv) nope eat a punch in the face with my poisonous face.
Umbreon has many better attributes, outli end in the posts above.
Keep your pants on kids florges isn't god.
florges' moonblast can hit fighitng types and dark types (like scrafty and megaabsol) for KOs while Umbreon cannot KO them.
florges can also wall a few special attackers than Umbreon can't wall easily like Galvantula and Yanmega and Megablastoise because the typings which nobody mentioned if i scrolled correctly.
Florges also has dragon immunity which is really nice and deters ourage as long as its alive and lets it much on Mega ampharos easily while Umbreon has to hope focus blast wont hit twice in a row/get stalled out by resttalk.
really i thought of all these threats in like 2 minutes I can't believe you guys are completely ignoring/forgot about them
oh and can we stop bashing on lack of ability thats the most idiotic argument
you could say heracross isn't good because it doesnt get uturn, yeah thats bs
only mention ability in terms that umbreon has a pretty good one compraed to florges, not that having no ability makes florges somehow bad. it doesn't it is a completely neutral factor
florges can also wall a few special attackers than Umbreon can't wall easily like Galvantula and Yanmega and Megablastoise because the typings which nobody mentioned if i scrolled correctly.
Florges also has dragon immunity which is really nice and deters ourage as long as its alive and lets it much on Mega ampharos easily while Umbreon has to hope focus blast wont hit twice in a row/get stalled out by resttalk.
really i thought of all these threats in like 2 minutes I can't believe you guys are completely ignoring/forgot about them
oh and can we stop bashing on lack of ability thats the most idiotic argument
you could say heracross isn't good because it doesnt get uturn, yeah thats bs
only mention ability in terms that umbreon has a pretty good one compraed to florges, not that having no ability makes florges somehow bad. it doesn't it is a completely neutral factor
kokoloko said that STAB foul play does decent damage even on resisted hits
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 131-154 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 105-124 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery (adamant)
i havent really seen yanmega or galvantula much but
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery AND not all blastoise run aura sphere as they sometimes op for ice beam
umbreon has a psychic immunity. granted psychic is an awful offensive type but a psyshock immunity makes it so it is sort of useful.
umbreon has an ability
i thought of all this in like 30 seconds after reading your post. i cant believe you're completely ignoring/forgetting about them
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 131-154 (48.3 - 56.8%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 105-124 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery (adamant)
i havent really seen yanmega or galvantula much but
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery AND not all blastoise run aura sphere as they sometimes op for ice beam
umbreon has a psychic immunity. granted psychic is an awful offensive type but a psyshock immunity makes it so it is sort of useful.
umbreon has an ability
i thought of all this in like 30 seconds after reading your post. i cant believe you're completely ignoring/forgetting about them
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Absol: 338-402 (124.7 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 160-189 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
stop using shitty 4 attack umbreon lol it doesn't help with foul play at all
so umbreon needs to be in tip top shape to wall blastoise mhm thats nice
you're a fool for disregarding my posts just because you don't like my tone its the attitude of elitism that goes into everyone in these godless forums
how about you acknowledge that my post had substance to it instead of posting random calcs that do nothing more than confirm what i said: florges can ko threats that umbreon cannot
and how about you stop repeating the ability point which i already acknowledged and has been said in like every other post since this discussion started
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 160-189 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
stop using shitty 4 attack umbreon lol it doesn't help with foul play at all
so umbreon needs to be in tip top shape to wall blastoise mhm thats nice
you're a fool for disregarding my posts just because you don't like my tone its the attitude of elitism that goes into everyone in these godless forums
how about you acknowledge that my post had substance to it instead of posting random calcs that do nothing more than confirm what i said: florges can ko threats that umbreon cannot
and how about you stop repeating the ability point which i already acknowledged and has been said in like every other post since this discussion started
Mienshao's imo is still A+ material. It's by far one of the best scouts and Revenge Killers in the metagame. Furthermore, Reckless HJK is still pretty powerful for a Scarfer. With the drop of Hydreigon, Mienshao's position as a Base 105 Scarfer becomes more important.
I use Mienshao all the time. She's a pretty good scout and has one of the strongest Fighting stabs in the game. With Regenerator she can use Life orb+Fake out+U-turn easy and take no damage as long as she out speeds them. She also has access to Poison Jab to finish off Florges and Knock off making Ghost switch ins equally as risky for them as it is for High Jump Kick. However there are still a couple physical durable pokemon like Slowbro who can survive most of Mienshaos attacks at full health and get a hit on her 65/60/60 defense. I don't mind her being A+ but no lower as she is certainly one of the best fighting types in the tier.
Man I totally predicted that Mienshao + Hcross would be the next two things to be discussed.
Let me start off by saying that I believe both of these pokes should remain A+. They are both incredibly powerful, incredibly versatile, and have very few hard counters.
Let's start with Mienshao. Mienshao's viable sets are his scarfed set, his LO set, his banded set, and his baton pass set. All of these sets use Mienshao's signature move, HJK, which is incredibly strong, yet has the potential to miss catastrophically or just be protected on (which is why Mienshao isn't as broken as it could be). The scarfed and LO sets, whether reckless or regenerator, are both very common, and I don't think there's a whole lot of point in discussing what they do, as you guys already know about it. His banded set is great, purely because it can break through so many things that unsuspecting switch-ins won't be prepared for - for instance, it guarantees the KO on crobat with stone edge. The ability to come in on a weakened wall and get off a Reckless, banded, stab HJK on something is really awesome, and Mienshao's speed tier is massively helpful as well - the only common non-scarfed pokemon it fails to outspeed are Megaman, Megadoom, azelf, jolteon, and noivern, none of which exactly appreciate taking an HJK to the face. His baton pass set is very underrated as well - whether it's just sub, just sd or subsd, you get a ton of free turns from scaring people out, and therefore a ton of free turns to set up and sweep or pass it along to something else that can do the sweeping for you. some good partners are toxicroak and cacturne, who can wall the bulky waters that are likely to switch into Mienshao and set up further. also, unlike other boosting passers like celebi and ninjask, Mienshao has tremendous offensive pressure in his own right.
Heracross has a similar level of insane variability. Like Mienshao, he has two extremely good abilities from which to choose - guts, which lets him switch in on scalds and status moves and become an absolute monster, and Moxie, which lets him late-game sweep like none other. although moxie is generally better on the scarf set and guts is generally preferred on the band set, either is viable on either set and if you don't know which Heracross is running, the guessing games can become quite dangerous. also like Mienshao, Heracross has a number of criminally underused sets that are actually very good. the two i'll focus on today are SD cross and EndureSalac cross. swords dance heracross functions similarly to baton pass mienshao - because of its insane offensive pressure, heracross gets a lot of free turns in which to set up an sd, at which point the number of pokes who can counter him plummets into the negative realm. combine with guts, and you have the potential for megahorns and close combats that OHKO the entire tier. Heracross is bulky enough, unlike mienshao, to take a couple of hits along the way from defensive pokes, so he can run rampant with boosts even without a scarf. Enduresalac is perhaps even more underrated, and I know a lot of you are going to give me shit for saying it's good, but imo it really has become a force to reckon with in gen 6. the set I use looks something like this -
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Endure
- Reversal
Last generation, this Heracross set really struggled with the presence of ghosts. However, with the new dark buff and access to Knock Off, endure salac Heracross has gotten a whole lot better. the premise behind the set is something like this : go for megahorn or knock off, bluffing the scarf, and kill something off, or just force a switch into something that counters whatever move you're locked into. if they have the ability to kill you, endure, type offensive gg, and prepare to sweep their entire team.
The set still works best if common scarfers aren't around, but many people are caught off guard and end up misplaying and giving you more kills even with them. for instance, when you're down to your 1 HP and you kill something off and they bring scarfed victini in, they have to go for either bolt strike or zen headbutt, or they'll give you another kill. this is because you endure again on their move - if they v-create, you're faster, if they u-turn, they're forced to bring something else in. (P.s., this makes krookodile an awesome partner). the same thing goes to a lesser extent with scarf mienshao, scarf darmanitan, scarf flygon, scarf hydreigon, etc.
In conclusion, heracross and mienshao's access to incredible versatility both in sets and in abilities makes them constant threats to all teams, as there really are no hard counters. those who hard wall the basic sets risk getting set up on by sd cross or bp mienshao, and those that assume choice items get clocked in the face by reversal.
Let me start off by saying that I believe both of these pokes should remain A+. They are both incredibly powerful, incredibly versatile, and have very few hard counters.
Let's start with Mienshao. Mienshao's viable sets are his scarfed set, his LO set, his banded set, and his baton pass set. All of these sets use Mienshao's signature move, HJK, which is incredibly strong, yet has the potential to miss catastrophically or just be protected on (which is why Mienshao isn't as broken as it could be). The scarfed and LO sets, whether reckless or regenerator, are both very common, and I don't think there's a whole lot of point in discussing what they do, as you guys already know about it. His banded set is great, purely because it can break through so many things that unsuspecting switch-ins won't be prepared for - for instance, it guarantees the KO on crobat with stone edge. The ability to come in on a weakened wall and get off a Reckless, banded, stab HJK on something is really awesome, and Mienshao's speed tier is massively helpful as well - the only common non-scarfed pokemon it fails to outspeed are Megaman, Megadoom, azelf, jolteon, and noivern, none of which exactly appreciate taking an HJK to the face. His baton pass set is very underrated as well - whether it's just sub, just sd or subsd, you get a ton of free turns from scaring people out, and therefore a ton of free turns to set up and sweep or pass it along to something else that can do the sweeping for you. some good partners are toxicroak and cacturne, who can wall the bulky waters that are likely to switch into Mienshao and set up further. also, unlike other boosting passers like celebi and ninjask, Mienshao has tremendous offensive pressure in his own right.
Heracross has a similar level of insane variability. Like Mienshao, he has two extremely good abilities from which to choose - guts, which lets him switch in on scalds and status moves and become an absolute monster, and Moxie, which lets him late-game sweep like none other. although moxie is generally better on the scarf set and guts is generally preferred on the band set, either is viable on either set and if you don't know which Heracross is running, the guessing games can become quite dangerous. also like Mienshao, Heracross has a number of criminally underused sets that are actually very good. the two i'll focus on today are SD cross and EndureSalac cross. swords dance heracross functions similarly to baton pass mienshao - because of its insane offensive pressure, heracross gets a lot of free turns in which to set up an sd, at which point the number of pokes who can counter him plummets into the negative realm. combine with guts, and you have the potential for megahorns and close combats that OHKO the entire tier. Heracross is bulky enough, unlike mienshao, to take a couple of hits along the way from defensive pokes, so he can run rampant with boosts even without a scarf. Enduresalac is perhaps even more underrated, and I know a lot of you are going to give me shit for saying it's good, but imo it really has become a force to reckon with in gen 6. the set I use looks something like this -
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Endure
- Reversal
Last generation, this Heracross set really struggled with the presence of ghosts. However, with the new dark buff and access to Knock Off, endure salac Heracross has gotten a whole lot better. the premise behind the set is something like this : go for megahorn or knock off, bluffing the scarf, and kill something off, or just force a switch into something that counters whatever move you're locked into. if they have the ability to kill you, endure, type offensive gg, and prepare to sweep their entire team.
The set still works best if common scarfers aren't around, but many people are caught off guard and end up misplaying and giving you more kills even with them. for instance, when you're down to your 1 HP and you kill something off and they bring scarfed victini in, they have to go for either bolt strike or zen headbutt, or they'll give you another kill. this is because you endure again on their move - if they v-create, you're faster, if they u-turn, they're forced to bring something else in. (P.s., this makes krookodile an awesome partner). the same thing goes to a lesser extent with scarf mienshao, scarf darmanitan, scarf flygon, scarf hydreigon, etc.
In conclusion, heracross and mienshao's access to incredible versatility both in sets and in abilities makes them constant threats to all teams, as there really are no hard counters. those who hard wall the basic sets risk getting set up on by sd cross or bp mienshao, and those that assume choice items get clocked in the face by reversal.
fucking kitten milk always saying what i want to say
anyways, basically mien and hera should remain A+, due to the fact that both are some of the premier wallbreakers in the tier. the fact that both can easily destroy teams, whether with the scarf set or the band set. i'd like to focus on heracross more though, as CB / Swords Dance coupled with Guts fucking smashes stall, as a boosted Megahorn or CC can easily 2HKO some of the most bulkiest mons in the tier like Suicune, if not just outright OHKO'ing. It also has an easier time dealing with thenonexistent Ghosts in the tier like Cofag due to the Knock Off buff. I'm not nomming either for S however, due to the fact that Mien is frail as fuck, even with regenerator, and while Hera does have an insane amount of power, it has a speed that isn't /that/ great, and it has a shitty defensive typing, however both have obscene amounts of versatality and offensive pressure, and are staples for any offensive team.
anyways, basically mien and hera should remain A+, due to the fact that both are some of the premier wallbreakers in the tier. the fact that both can easily destroy teams, whether with the scarf set or the band set. i'd like to focus on heracross more though, as CB / Swords Dance coupled with Guts fucking smashes stall, as a boosted Megahorn or CC can easily 2HKO some of the most bulkiest mons in the tier like Suicune, if not just outright OHKO'ing. It also has an easier time dealing with the
they should both be A+.
Mienshao is a horrifying scarf user. It can revenge kill some of the tiers best revenge killers because of its 105 speed. That fast enough to check Salamence (for the whole two minutes is back in UU). Its LO set is menacing and with the proper support, it can easily clean out slower teams. Because of Knock Off, no ghost can safely switch into it as it can OHKO most are instantly killed bar Cofagrigus (252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 195-231 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) but its still frikin powerful. Also, both sets can utilize U-Turn very well as it can easily grab momentum for the user and turn the tide of the battle.
Heracross is a bit different. He is a bit bulkier (remember mien has ass bulk) but also slower, making him less scary as a scarfer, though it can pull off the set fairly well because of accumulating Moxie boosts. Its CB set is an awesome wallbreaker that can do some major damage. Its SD set is arguably the best anti-stall set in UU as of now. At +2, he can severely damage many common stallers.
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 564-666 (143.1 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 564-666 (143.1 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 250-296 (78.1 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Florges: 249-293 (69.1 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (i think thats the recommended set correct me if im wrong)
Did I miss any? Also, with a guts boost (or another SD) it basically says GG to stall.
Mienshao is a horrifying scarf user. It can revenge kill some of the tiers best revenge killers because of its 105 speed. That fast enough to check Salamence (for the whole two minutes is back in UU). Its LO set is menacing and with the proper support, it can easily clean out slower teams. Because of Knock Off, no ghost can safely switch into it as it can OHKO most are instantly killed bar Cofagrigus (252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 195-231 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) but its still frikin powerful. Also, both sets can utilize U-Turn very well as it can easily grab momentum for the user and turn the tide of the battle.
Heracross is a bit different. He is a bit bulkier (remember mien has ass bulk) but also slower, making him less scary as a scarfer, though it can pull off the set fairly well because of accumulating Moxie boosts. Its CB set is an awesome wallbreaker that can do some major damage. Its SD set is arguably the best anti-stall set in UU as of now. At +2, he can severely damage many common stallers.
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 564-666 (143.1 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 564-666 (143.1 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 250-296 (78.1 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Florges: 249-293 (69.1 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (i think thats the recommended set correct me if im wrong)
Did I miss any? Also, with a guts boost (or another SD) it basically says GG to stall.
Yeah, I agree with A+ ranking for both. They are the best fighting types in the tier since they both have obscenely powerful STAB moves and the fact that they both have Knock Off means that their counters lose consistent healing in Leftovers thus leaving them easier to break later on in the game. Plus it fucks over Ghost types which completely fucked them over last generation.
I would argue that Mienshao is a little better than Heracross in general because of its excellent speed tier, access to U-turn and the fact it more resistant to hazards and can use Life Orb easier due to regenerator but I still don't think it is S Rank.
I would argue that Mienshao is a little better than Heracross in general because of its excellent speed tier, access to U-turn and the fact it more resistant to hazards and can use Life Orb easier due to regenerator but I still don't think it is S Rank.
Agreed with all of the above. Life Orbed Mienshao's HJK 2HKO's non-defensive Florges on the switch. It has access to U-turn, meaning you can create a VoltTurn combo for great momentum. It also has access to Knock Off, one of the best moves in the current Metagame. It can revenge kill with a Scarf, and also Fake Out to break Sturdy or the occasional Focus Sash (I'm looking at you Galvantula.)
Heracross is quite similar - viable with a Choice Scarf, it can sweep unprepared teams with Moxie. Once again, a great Revenge Killer. Revenge Killing is especially great for Heracross, as it'll get the Moxie boost and the ever so annoying snowball effect will start rolling. It also has access to Knock Off, like Mienshao, dealing a lot of damage to Psychic types.
Both should be A+
Heracross is quite similar - viable with a Choice Scarf, it can sweep unprepared teams with Moxie. Once again, a great Revenge Killer. Revenge Killing is especially great for Heracross, as it'll get the Moxie boost and the ever so annoying snowball effect will start rolling. It also has access to Knock Off, like Mienshao, dealing a lot of damage to Psychic types.
Both should be A+
I'm disagreeing with Heracross being A+ because I think Mienshao is usually much better than Heracross. The extra speed mienshao has over heracross, as well as its much stronger stab move, makes it a much better choice for offensive teams who need the quick scarfer. The extra power it has with high jump kick means it can wall break harder than heracross especially since you can run a band/reckless set that just hits really hard with its high jump kick.
The main reason to run heracross over mien would be its megahorn to hit mostly slowbro and mew, but with stealth rock up mienshao can actually 2hko both of those with its band set, provided they still have their items. I mean obviously you're not going to be 2hko'ing slowbro because of regenerator, but the extra speed mienshao brings to the table makes it a much more potent threat that's much harder to revenge kill.
Heracross for A, Mienshao for A+.
The main reason to run heracross over mien would be its megahorn to hit mostly slowbro and mew, but with stealth rock up mienshao can actually 2hko both of those with its band set, provided they still have their items. I mean obviously you're not going to be 2hko'ing slowbro because of regenerator, but the extra speed mienshao brings to the table makes it a much more potent threat that's much harder to revenge kill.
Heracross for A, Mienshao for A+.
If you are saying Mienshao hits harder than heracross and is the better wallbreaker, someone clearly has not tried flame orb guts heracross with swords dance, facade, Close Combat and Knock off
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