• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Any real reason Nidoqueen shouldn't be ranked next to N.King? Only real difference is speed and power are switched with some added bulk. She still has the typing to absorb thunder wave and toxic and I'm sure they both run the same Sheer Force sets. Just staple them together.

Metagross has some really good stats, the speed can be replaced with Bullet Punch, his defense is 80/130, almost as big as his attack at 135 and ass vest could help bring up his already good 90 special defense. Although, most everyone will have a pokemon to beat steel types and the steel nerf no longer protects his psychic-type weaknesses from the dark types plus Hydreigon moving up makes him less likely to move up. I would say he's better than Darmanitan, he has better bulk and steel still has tons of resists, hits about as hard and carries priority (just like Crawdaunt) . He could stay A rank
 
Nidoking would be the superior wallbreaker since it has Megahorn to skewer Mew, Cresselia, and Umbreon something fierce. On the other hand, Nidoqueen is not that far behind in terms of wallbreaking prowess, and her better (and usable) bulk allows her to consider her support options, such as Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Roar, or even permit an item other than Life Orb, such as Black Sludge. Since Queen can focus on her bulk, she can claim to actually switch into shit like Mienshao, Heracross, Escavalier, Mega Aggron, Mega Ampharos...while Nidoking can only really switch into...I dunno? Florges? I don't see much reason Queen shouldn't be right next to King in A Rank.

Metagross, on the other hand, is a trickier case. It is meant to be built like a tank, but it can falter against a good majority of Pokemon in the tier. Hydra breaks it, Mega Houndoom / Absol / Blastoise breaks it, Victini / Darmanitan breaks it, Nidos break it, Honchkrow breaks it, the reintroduced Crawdaunt breaks it...and then Metagross doesn't do a spectacular job wallbreaking either, since Forretress, Hippo, Swampert, Will-O-Wisp Mew, Umbreon, Vaporeon, and Suicune wall/beat the shit out of it. Metagross had better have some outstanding stuff in its movepool to warrant such a high rank.

- Steel STAB: It's no longer even the strongest Steel-type move in the tier, since 0 Atk Mega Aggron's Heavy Slam totally hits harder against a good majority of opponents. At this point you're probably going out of your way to try to make Meteor Mash top that Heavy Slam, like hoping for Attack boosts or slapping a Choice Band on it. Too bad the former can get forced out too easily for that rare chance to come into play, and locking oneself into a Steel-type move when stuff like Suicune, Raikou, Mega Blastoise, Victini, etc. lurk in this meta is asking for trouble.
- Psychic STAB: Yeah that's cute, hitting the likes of Chesnaught and Heracross for more damage. How are those weaknesses working out for you?
- It has Stealth Rock, which isn't new even on a tank like Metagross, since other tanks such as Swampert, Hippowdon, and of course Mega Aggron boast their own share of offensive presence. This also means you cannot use Assault Vest with it.
- It has Pursuit, but there are so few targets Metagross would want to use this on: Ghosts won't flee from Meta due to their newfound advantage, and most Psychics (Mew, Victini, Slowbro, Cresselia) won't bother with Meta's Pursuit either.
- Bullet Punch is admittedly nifty, since it nails Pokes such as Mega Dactyl and Kyurem. However, it doesn't really hit much else, and doesn't even outspeed the most relevant Sucker Punch user in the tier (Honchkrow) to be able to avoid it.
- Ability to go mixed: a usable Special Attack stat with Grass Knot and HP Fire can lure out some hard checks/counters such as Swampert and Forry and proceed to beat them, but they don't hit enough threats to be very useful, as Vappy/Suicune shrug off Grass Knot while HP Fire barely grazes Mega Aggron.
- Agility is probably the big selling point about Metagross as far as I can tell, but is this really enough to warrant A Rank?
- Explosion is probably also one of Meta's true selling points imo, blowing itself the hell up to weaken a foe.

I won't voice out my Rank on Metagross yet, I just want to know if these advantages merit its high placing.
 
Limitless said:
Kyurem will be dropping to A- rank. Pretty much, the reason why Kyurem isn't B+ rank is because of how destructive the Choice Specs set is. Though the Choice Scarf is completely viable, it is generally outclassed by the rampant Hydreigon. The Substitute Roost set is pretty bad and easily beaten by Florges. The Choice Specs set, however, does a ton of damage to steel types and can even muscle his way through Florges given the right scenario. And especially with how good Kyurem's resistances are, sending off a high-powered Draco Meteor is pretty easy.
Click to expand...

This is the exact opposite of what's beeen said. The Substitute set works well because it doesn't have to fear Pixilate-Hyper Voices in UU and the specially defensive variant beats Florges.
 
Nidoqueen should just staay A, yeah it lacks megahorn, but it has some extra bulk to use that nice movepool of her´s, not outclassed, just diffrent.

Metagross, on the other hand should drop, he is just sad currently, the explosion nerf, and the lack of a lead metagame already hurt him, and the steel nerf killed him.

psychic STAB is garbage in a metagame where everyone and their mother carries knock off, not to mention that sucker punch is by far the most common priority in the metagame.

He also has 4MSS up the angus, having need for thunderpunch to have any chance against bulky waters, who will likely beat him anyway, hammer arm is great, for hydreigon, umbreon, and mega houndoom, which should only be on the switch. He wants bullet punch for priority, and meteor mash for solid STAB, but then he misses out on SR, and screens.

B- rank is the best for him this generation.
 
Queen should stay there right next to king at a rank. It has the same coverage and typing to absorb t spikes resist sr like king. But, it has more bulk. Modest queen hits harder than timid king, but is slower. The only real threats that king outspeeds is mega stoise, but i suppose queen could speed creep 0 speed ev stoise.l, but itll lose bulk. But, both can cleanly 2hko stoise with stab earth power and sludge wave.

I love metagross, i really do. But, i think it should drop down to B+ rank. I used it primarily as a great av user, but unlike other av users, it doesnt have recovery in drain punch or regenerator. It was a great check to mega gardevoir. Slowbro and mega aggron wall it so hard, even with se moves. If you look at the other pokes in b+, youll find donphan who is a bulky mon that can set up sr and hit hard just like meta. But at least he can spin.

Metagross cant boost its attack, but could run an agility set to sweep late game. I suppose you could go mixed, but it is vastly outclassed by victini. Its a one trick pony that gets the job done.
 
Nidoqueen can and should reign with Nidoking in the A rank. Queen can do its job as reliably as King can do as a wallbreaker, the only big difference being that Queen trades King's speed for extra bulk to reliably set rocks and tank hits that Nidoking can't do and the ability to run Modest nature to hit just as hard as King.

I feel that Metagross should drop to B, on the other hand. There is a lot of so much Fire/Dark spam going on in this metagame atm, and the re-introduction of Hydreigon into the tier certainly doesn't help its case. While it can take some physical beatings with its base 130 defense and nail things with its base 135 Attack, even the Fires, with its proper coverage moves, or picking off weakened opponents with STAB Bullet Punch, the current metagame has been treating it terribly, which is why Metagross should drop a little further.
 
Haven't fixed my thoughts on Nidoqueen yet, so I will talk about Metagross:

Metagross has taken a huge fall from the Steel nerf, its two new weakness increases its checks by a lot. However it isn't horrendously bad for UU Standards, Steel still has a plethora of useful resistances and Psychic gives it a neutrality to Fighting allowing it to not fear them as much as other Steels. One of the biggest appeal of using Metagross in the current meta is his STAB Bullet Punch, a reliable form of priority that is rare in this tier. However, it isn't even that good as Bullet Punch is resisted by most things that you need the priority for, like Manectric, Houndoom and Victini. Not to mention that Metagross is slow so it isn't bypassing even Honchkrow's Sucker Punch, which it is now weak too. That being said Metagross still hits fairly hard with 135 base Attack, has ok coverage in M.Mash/EQ/T-Punch (best combination it gets I think? Walled by only Rotom Mow/Heat in UU), and can even go mixed with G.knot for those Water/Grounds. Along with Aggron and Jirachi, Metagross are the only (primarily) physical attackers that can switch into Florges that aren't easily worn down by Stealth Rock/T spikes, but compared to Aggron, Metagross doesn't take a Mega spot and has priority to boot, as well as being able to provide screens support if need be, and to Rachi, Metagross hits harder and has EQ to keep Fire/Electric types from switching in safely. Clear Body is a cool ability to have but it really isn't that useful as Metagross almost can't give less shit about being slowed down by Sticky Web, and the most common Intimidate users being Arcanine and Manectric doesn't help it, but I guess hitting them with a full power EQ on the predicted switch is nice.

In my experience Metagross is best used in Fire spam teams for having a Florges switch in that isn't weak to rocks, can setup his own rocks and thanks to T-Punch and/or Explosion, it can lure in and soften most bully Waters that stops Fire type from sweeping. Aggron generally does its job and does it better, but running a Metagross allows me to run another Mega like Blastoise for a reliable offensive spinner or Houndoom for more Fire Spam. I think it deserves B Rank at least, B+ at most.
 
IMO Metagross should go B+.Why?
Look at the B+Pokes like Chandy,Chesnaught great Pokes that aren't exactly fitting well in the current Meta a description that IMO Metagross fits pretty well

Also matter how hard I try I,sadly, can't see him even on A- Rank with Kyurem,and the "UU Megas"(That being said I think a couple of A- Mons need to drop)
 
Nidoqueen = Nidoking - Megahorn + the moveslot for Stealth Rock - a little power - some Speed + bulk = A Rank.

Metagross is a really versatile Pokemon, and a point in its favor is that it has about 5 sets (Agility, Assault Vest, Choice Band, Mixed, Stealth Rock), but it doesn't really do any of those great. Almost all of its sets, except for Choice Band and Mixed, are easily walled by the omnipresent bulky waters, and that makes them no more than B effective, because they really can't do much damage while the bulky waters are still around. Sure, they can handle some threats, like Assault Vest taking on the Grass-types and Agility is a decent late game cleaner, while the Stealth Rock set can set it up pretty reliably because Metagross is hard to KO, but I would probably rather use Mega Aggron for that. Metagross can be pretty dangerous though, with Choice Band or a mixed set. The mixed set is able to lure in things like Forretress, Slowbro, Swampert, and other bulky waters that normally wouldn't care, and Choice Band can just straight up 2HKO Slowbro with Thunderpunch. Still, Metagross has a poor balance of Speed, bulk, typing, and power for this metagame. It's certainly worse than Mega Blastoise, because Mega Blastoise can do its job pretty well, and has fewer counters. It has the bulk and typing to take on offensive teams somewhat well, unlike Metagross. Metagross has common weaknesses that make it worse than A- Rank. It's probably about the same as Chandelure. Has a few decent sets, can be an effective wallbreaker, struggles against offense.

Metagross for B+ Rank because it's about as effective with its multiple of sets as Mega Manectric and Chandelure, but worse than Hippowdon or Blastoise.
 
for metagross there's not much i can say about meta that SL hasn't said, but it's worth noting that metagross should also be b+ because it has a really shitty STAB combination AND 4MSS. on most sets you either have to give up psychic stab or bullet punch, which is really bad for it tbh.

i..i don't know if im doing this right, but if we're talking comparisons then metagross doesn't even do that well against other b+ mons barring aromatisse, cobalion, and potentially froslass. again i dont know if im doing it like i said but i think b+ is good for it due to the fact that it can use a multitude of sets making it p versatile.
 
When you compare metagross to the only other mons we have officially ranked in B+ (Mega-Mane and Chandelure) I'm hesitant to put it even there. It never seems to do any of the jobs it has particularly well, and when you compare it to chandelure (who will generally put in some work even if the opponent has one of it's cold stops like hydrei) or mega-mane (who's really good at volt-turning and fast as fuck) it doesn't quite seem to stack up.

That said I have seen metagross put in work (notably DMT runs a wp agility set which occasionally actually cleans up a weakened team) I've just never been happy with it when I used it on my team. Always feels like if I used another mon I'd have one that's more competent in whatever role I asked of metagross.

I'd probably make it B.
 
A little bit off topic, but...

Delibird is Amazing said:
which gourgeist is b(+) rank? there are 4 you know.
Click to expand...

This is something that never got answered at all, and considering it was literally the second post in this thread, I felt a little nitpicky about it. I'm sure most players (including me) would probably assume XL and/or Small sizes are B+ ranks, but I think it should be clarified so that new players aren't given the impression that all four of them are equally as viable. Just saying.
 
Not sure what all the fuss is about Metagross. Yeah, his Psychic typing hurts him, but his great bulk and high base attack make up for that. The set I use the most is the AV set, and he tanks anything thats not super effective, as well as some super effective hits (Mega Manes Flamethrower, for example) pretty well. Granted, he suffers from 4 MSS, but what he carries should determine his role. Also being able to hard counter Florges a majority of the time is always a plus. My vote is either A- or B+. He should drop, but not by much.
 
i think that vivillon should be moved to A. its very destructive with quiver dance. it can put its counters to sleep with sleep powder. it also a pretty great ability called compound eyes. that means it can wreck the crap of pokemon with a perfectly accurate hurricane. the only problem with it is rock types and priority users. aerodactyl can shut it down. and crawdaunt can kill it with aqua jet. but its power can make it easily A.
 
gooey kirby said:
i think that vivillon should be moved to A. its very destructive with quiver dance. it can put its counters to sleep with sleep powder. it also a pretty great ability called compound eyes. that means it can wreck the crap of pokemon with a perfectly accurate hurricane. the only problem with it is rock types and priority users. aerodactyl can shut it down. and crawdaunt can kill it with aqua jet. but its power can make it easily A.
Click to expand...

hurricane is 91% accurate with ce not 100%. Sleep powder similarly is 97.5%. It's A- because it has the defenses of a turnip, a horrible typing that leaves it quad weak to SR, and coverage that gets completely walled by Steel types. By having a poke that can't switch in on hardly anything and requires large amounts of team support in order to successfully (but not reliably) use, you detract from the overall potential of your team. it may seem disproportionately good purely because it is a sweeper, but in reality it's not an A rank mon.
 
Metagross is almost helpless against bulky Water-types and doesn't have Volt Switch or Analytic like Magnezone.

Either way, I guess B+ would be fair for Metagross for reasons explained already. I've never really found Metagross remarkable enough to be in A Rank, since its coverage is kinda eh and it doesn't have a way to bypass bulky Water-types. It also has a lot of crippling weaknesses which leave it suspectible to quite a few mons in the meta like Houndoom, Krookodile, etc. That said, I do feel its versatility warrants it a spot in B+. It can be a neat tank with Assault Vest, as it's quite bulky and hits hard for a tank. It can also wallbreak with CB or a mixed set to either just use raw power or lure in common checks and counters and dent them. Agility with Weakness Policy is also a fun wincon, although it needs support to fully work. Metagross probably fits well in B+ because it's pretty versatile and relatively solid but has a few issues that I kinda don't like.

Nidoqueen I feel probably is solid A Rank, it's a little inferior to Nidoking, but its bulk gives it a niche over King. Its bulk allows it to make more effective use of its resistances, allowing it to serve as a better check to common threats in the meta. It hits hard and is not that easy to counter thanks to its nice coverage; it's immune to Toxic and Thunder Wave as well which is awesome. It is also a good Rocks setter thanks to its typing and bulk, and Stealth Rock is a must for almost every team so that's nice. It's got enough distinct advantages over Nidoking to be in the same rank as it.
 
B-RANK
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, metagross can do neither, due to bulky waters, and knock off.

setup bait for dangerous sweepers. neither mega doundoom or crocune really care about metagross' STABS.

Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, porygon z is a better agility booster, mega aggron is a better wall, most banders have far better STABs.

B+ seems fair.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top