XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Limitless]

Kitten pretty much summed up everything that needs to be said on this matter.

If anyone wants to shit post anymore about Ninjask, I will delete and infract.

 

[Meru]

Since we're on the topic of C rank 'mons, I'm gonna shift discussion back to that with something that has had a very strong presence in some Grand Slam matches

Whimsicott @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Giga Drain
- Hurricane
- Moonblast

Thanks to that offensive Fairy-typing, Whimsicott makes a really good choice for offense teams looking to punish Scarf Hydreigon. It carves a niche into unique teams revolving around an underrated move: Tailwind. Tailwind lets wallbreakers like Choice Band Haxorus actually do well against offensive teams, and thanks to Prankster, it's pretty much guaranteed to get it off. Overall it definitely need to be somewhere in the B region.

Here's a replay of Tailwind Whimsicott bringing home a late-game win against Lochie: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18745

 

[KM]

i've used that set, with memento over tailwind. It's definitely pretty effective and people are often surprised by the coverage and damage you can pull out. Pretty much my go-to counter for Hydra on HO teams now.

I support a nomination to B- rank.

 

[dodmen]

I agree with bouff about Alomomola and Blissey moving down. After playing quite a few games with it, in particular, Alomomola is set up on by so many threatening offensive Pokemon: Lum Haxorus gets a free SD (often more if Alomomola isn't running Toxic), Heracross gets a free SD or hits something with a banded attack, Lucario sets up unless Scald burns, Sub SD Hawlucha sets up unless it's running Waterfall (in which case Hawlucha doesn't need to be afraid of burns and can still set up SDs), etc. Other wishpassers like Florges, Blissey, and (sometimes) Umbreon have at least a means of decent damage output against offensive Pokemon, but Alomomola can't even 3HKO Nidoqueen with a STAB SE move, for example. It's also heavily reliant on Heal Bell support, as Toxic completely fucks up its ability to stay healthy while still wishpassing, and even burns can really cripple Rocky Helmet versions.

B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers.

Again, these sweepers include Heracross, Hawlucha, Haxorus, and Lucario barring a Scald burn on the latter.

 

[Molk]

I know i don't really post in UU and this is a bit out of character for me but really...

I see absolutely zero reason for Ninjask to have a rank in this thread, especially if Combusken isn't getting a spot on this list despite clearly being better in the Speed passing role. Looking at Ninjask in a vacuum, it's pretty easy to see that Ninjask's flaws are pretty significant. Its 4x weak to Stealth Rock and has both terrible defenses and a terrible defensive typing, which means that Ninjask requires support to function to its fullest (it needs Rapid Spin/Defog support to even have a hope of getting off a Baton Pass more than once from my experience seeing it in all tiers, let alone UU) and these flaws also reduce the amount of times it can switch in to start boosting in the first place, let alone pull off a Baton Pass to a teammate. Oftentimes Ninjask will often be forced into the lead slot to function, and because of team preview, that can be awfully predictable.

Combusken isn't burdened with any of these issues at all, it's only neutral to Stealth Rock, has a decent defensive typing, and actually has the potential to be quite bulky with Eviolite taken into account, giving it significantly more opportunities to get into the game and start passing boosts. Furthermore, while Ninjask will often be limited to leading/being used with a Rapid Spin/Defog user to function to its fullest, Combusken needs NO SUPPORT to accomplish its role, and it can reasonably attempt to pull off a pass MULTIPLE TIMES PER GAME. On top of this, Combusken isn't even limited to passing Swords Dances, it can Baton Pass Bulk Ups reasonably well too. In fact, i'd probably say that Baton Passing Bulk Ups is MORE EFFECTIVE than passing Swords Dances for one reason and one reason only: the defense boosts make it that much easier to get recipients in safely, something Ninjask can't guarentee even with Substitute because of how damn frail it is (lets be real here *any* attack is breaking that thing's Substitute), not to mention it ensures recipients can take priority attacks.

So, what have we learned here:

Ninjask can't take a hit, Combusken CAN
Ninjask needs support to function to its fullest: Combusken doesn't, at least nowhere near the same level.
Ninjask is predictable because of its flaws: Combusken doesn't have to be.
Ninjask can't guarentee that a teammate gets in for free against a smart person: Combusken technically can't either but has an easier time doing so thanks to Bulk Up's defense boosts.
Ninjask struggles to pass multiple times per game: a well played Combusken doesn't.

Now, considering that you can only use one Pokemon with Baton Pass per team, would you rather use Ninjask, the flawed, frail, predictable Pokemon that needs support. Or Combusken, the Pokemon that has none of the problems with Stealth Rock or frailty that Ninjask has, doesn't have to be predictable, can protect its teammates from incoming attacks/priority with Bulk Up, while still accomplishing the same job in the end?

...

yeah me too

if you try to pull the "D rank is for bad Pokemon" card. If a Pokemon is all of flawed, outclassed, and not UU by usage, then what's the point of giving it a rank at all? The fact that the Pokemon is listed at all gives newer players the idea that the Pokemon is most likely worth using, if it generally isnt because of a combination of competition and flaws, then why is it even listed?

It's also worth nothing that all the points brought up by Hollywood here are perfectly legitimate, and i have absolutely no clue why you'd completely ignore a post such as that and write it off as a "shitpost" simply because you disagree with it. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-rank-discussion.3500340/page-85#post-5693869

furthermore...

I really shouldn't even have to address the Torkoal thing, but eh. If someone makes a successful team in which Torkoal is used and provides a niche that is not adequately filled by any other Pokemon in the current viability ranking, it's very conceivable that we would rank it at D, providing they made a compelling argument. I don't think that you, or many of the other people posting about Ninjask / Combusken, have been that active in UU. The reason I mention this isn't to discredit you, but rather to point out that you may not have knowledge of successful teams that employed Ninjask. As someone who's played UU since the very beginning, I have run into and perhaps even had trouble with Ninjask in the higher sections of the ladder. It's by no means a "good" Poke, but that doesn't mean it can't ever be used effectively.

I made a successful RU team that uses both Pawniard and Whirlipede, both of them provide a niche that isn't adequately filled by another Pokemon (Pawniard is a Doublade check with Defiant, Whirlipede gets Spikes+Tspikes and Endeavor). Does this mean either of these Pokemon are viable: NO, they certainly aren't, should they be ranked? HELL NO, and i'm the person who used them. A Pokemon with a tiny niche isn't worth ranking if its absolutely terrible otherwise.

As for discrediting people's points simply because they don't play UU too often, here's the thing: you don't need to play UU to realize that Ninjask sucks. Looking at the points listed above, its really really hard to defend Ninjask outside of the initial Speed and ability to hold Leftovers argument, both of which are pretty shaky reasons to use Ninjask imho, and i DEFINITELY wouldn't say that Ninjask is more reliable than Combusken...

Lastly, the very fact that you are completely ignoring legitimate points, writing them off as shitposts, refusing to provide a reasoning other than "if you can't see why you're stupid" and even threatening infractions if someone speaks about a Pokemon again, is quite disturbing to me, you shouldn't be shutting down other people simply because you disagree with them, especially when outsiders are looking at the points being made and recognizing them as legitimate.

So, TL;DR

Give Combusken a rank and derank Ninjask, at the very LEAST give Combusken a rank that's higher than Ninjask's, since it's pretty obvious to everyone that Combusken is the overall better Speed Boost passer.

 

[Punchshroom]

However, Ninjask does have a small niche. Even if you want to trivialize it or say that it isn't good, the item slot and higher speed combined make Ninjask far more reliable (in the sense that it isn't shut down by anything faster than +1 55 base speed Combusken, and that it isn't shut down by taunt), and this is enough of a niche to put it at D rank, a rank whose description fits Ninjask to a T.

While this is at the very least true, I could very well argue that Combusken's "slow pass" and existing bulk could be more beneficial for its recipients. I can't imagine how one could be so desperate for a quick one-time speed pass to dedicate an entire team slot for it; Ninjask is doing its job one time at best. At that point I have to question why they aren't using a Tailwind user, Sticky Webber, or heck, how about an Agility passer that isn't obvious as all hell, like freaking Durant or something (or, you know, Combusken).

Edit: That said, I can see why Limitless is so adamant about keeping Ninjask ranked (albeit as low as possible), since Combusken's offenses really do not matter in this tier than in lower tiers, and Ninjask's guaranteed Speed pass (against most opponents) is nice I guess, but Ninjask is pure support that needs support to work; not 'do better', but 'actually function'. The likes of Whimsicott and Uxie don't need support just to be able to go aggro support. The 'putting your eggs in the Ninjask Pass basket' is a strategy I have seen tried and utterly went all to shit many times; in fact, I don't remember the last time I have seen it actually pay off, since Ninjask is so inflexible to use and easy to play around, while Combusken at least can have variation.

 

[Bouff]

creds to hugen

 

[Ununhexium]

OK ninjask is bad back to topic.

I think Sceptile should move down to C- if not D rank. There's really nothing it can do, especially with Pokemon such as Celebi and Shaymin in the tier. As a physical attacker, its really weak and it can be annoying to activate the unburned boost thanks to the lack of flying gem.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Clawitzer can probly stay in C. A simple specs set of Sludge Wave/Aura Sphere/Dark Pulse/Scald or Water Pulse has not much safe switch ins as it can 2hko max hp/nil spdef Blissey with Modest Specs Aura Sphere with rocks up, so there is that. Not your usual to-go wallbreaker but it has its merits over Toise with its stronger attacks thanks to LO/Specs and Sludge Wave to nail Florges, extremely scary under TR or webs.

Whimsicott has been discussed by Kitten, Meru and a few others. I agree with most of what has been said. Easily a league above the other C ranks. Maybe B- or C+.

Omastar can probly rise to C+ as Modest Specs Hydro is insanely powerful under rain. Takes no skill to click Hydro and watch things take at least 50% off lol, and that seperates it from the rest of C rank imo. But it requires rain support which is why it is in C Rank but not above.

Fuck the Ninjask discussion cuz shit like Dusclops Evire and Leavanny are still ranked and their niche is just about as much as Ninjask lol

 

[Calloflochie]

This is seriously ridiculous, you're all squabbling over the ranking of a Pokemon in D-rank on a Viability Thread, let's all just step back and realise that.

 

[Jaiho]

Fuck the Ninjask discussion cuz shit like Dusclops Evire and Leavanny are still ranked and their niche is just about as much as Ninjask lol

Then take them off too? Thats more an argument to clean up the lower rankings than it is to keep ninjask in D.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Then take them off too? Thats more an argument to clean up the lower rankings than it is to keep ninjask in D.

Point is we are talking about C rank not D rank we can take them off all we want when we get there ;o Not that any newb would go to a viability thread and pick D rank shit to build a team around if that is what you are concerned about ;o

 

[Punchshroom]

If anything strikes out to me as being out of place in the C Ranks, it's Ambipom. There is just no merit to using a Normal-type with only average power and limited super effective coverage in the UU meta: Cinccino's super effective coverage is far more effective than Ambipom's neutral coverage, Swellow is blazing fast and can kill shit with Guts, Exploud obliterates everyone's eardrums, Meloetta can hit hard with either Forme, and Porygon-Z has Double Dance and Adaptability. Normal-type attackers are known for good neutral coverage, but they usually need a lot of power (or in Cinccino's case, effective coverage on the meta) to be worth it. Ambipom just doesn't fit the criteria; even the likes of Zangoose and Tauros are probably more rank-worthy than Ambipom.

And no, Tech Fake Out isn't enough to save it.

 

[Wobblebuns]

Liepard C ---> D / Off the list
On a support role, Liepard is outclassed by Whimsicott by quite a large margin. Not much going for it besides Knock Off and Encore+U-Turn, I guess. It can try a more offensive route like Nasty Plot, but then there's a number of Dark-types that can fulfill the role much better; M-Absol, M-Houndoom, etc.

Sceptile C ---> C-
Special sets face a lot of competition with UU's resident Grass-types. I'd classify it along the league of Lilligant. In manner of special offense, I think Lilligant is more potent because of the threat of Quiver Dance+Sleep Powder. On the other hand, Sceptile is more flexible with its sets and its higher base speed helps; SubSeed, All-Out Attacker, etc. Focus Blast is also an interesting advantage for the special sets which enable it to hit Hydreigon for great damage. SD is a very distinguishing quality for Sceptile and it would fare better it it weren't for the removal of gems.

Whimsicott C ---> C+ / B-
Whimsicott is a cool option for offensively-inclined teams who's looking for a pivot to threatening Pokemon like Hydreigon and Mienshao. However, its main selling point comes with its array of support options that can also cater to the needs of offense nicely. Tailwind and Memento in particular are good moves for a clutch late-game sweep or sending in a set up sweeper safely on the field respectively. Its usefulness lags a little against more passive teams but I guess it can abuse the switches it can induce by slowly wearing down the opposing team, given that hazards are up.

 

[Glue]

The only thing that ninjask carries and combusken dose not is defog really which ninjask can remove hazards and combusken can't not do but combusken is a better baton but ninjask dose has the defog + baton pass which is a niche so keep ninjask ranked and have combusken ranked at either D or C- Rank imo.

 

[Moose V]

->D Is this thing even worth using? We have a ton of Dragons, like Haxorus, Hydreigon, Goodra, Flygon, and to some extent Kingdra in this tier, and Drudd pales in comparison to them. It's slow in comparison and isn't as impressive offensively as Haxorus or Hydreigon. As a bulky Dragon, Goodra is much more useful thanks to its clutch abilities in Gooey and Sap Sipper (Rough Skin is cool but not enough to justify using Drudd). Let's not forget Kingdra and Flygon. I mean, I know Druddigon can be effective, but is there any merit to using it over other Dragons at all? It's also quite ugly.

I agreed with everything you said except for drudd for D. It's true UU has other dragons, but none of them have effective physically defensive sets like drudd. Goodra also doesn't have access to rocks or priority, two things which define drudd. I would also actually argue that rough skin is incredibly usefull on druddigon. Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin + Sucker Punch all but neuters victini. In fact, even if druddigon has literally no attack investment, that combination can put victini under 25% for rocks to take it out. I'd even go so far as to say that drudd is the best Victini switch-in in the tier for this very reason. Not even getting into other threats like darm and infernape (especially if life orb), I think this merits something better than d rank.

TL;DR nothing punishes u-turn like drudd and it forces your opponent to play very conservatively with respect to aforementioned pokes.

 

[dingbat]

Barbaracle should stay at C rank. It's usually an inferior Shell Smash sweeper to Cloyster due to the fact that it doesn't have substitute bypassing moves that it can effective abuse like Cloyster can and it cannot effectively run a mixed set in order to bypass physical walls that can easily tank +2 physical hits from it. That being said, though, Barbaracle has a much more expansive moveset than Cloyster does, with coverage moves like Earthquake, Cross Chop, and Night Slash to bop certain threats, and its ability Tough Claws even gives it an extra edge on many of its moves to make it at least a more respectable threat.

Omastar should definitely move up to C+ rank; if played correctly, it is extremely terrifying since its Specs Hydro Pump in the rain literally shits on a great portion of the tier. However, its low initial base speed means that even with Swift Swim, things like Scarf Mienshao, ScarfApe, and Scarf Hydreigon can still revenge kill it with either their super effective moves or their strong Special moves. It also needs a considerable amount of rain support should it need to come into battle multiple times and hopefully straight-up wreck things. I'm not sure how good its Shell Smash/lead set is, though, so someone else may elaborate on that.

 

[Hot N Cold]

There should be my ranks on my opinion on the most relevant ones, prolly some people dont agree but is o.k

S Rank:

Hide

Heracross
Hydreigon
Mew
Victini

A+ Rank:

Hide

Aerodactyl-Mega
Blastoise-Mega
Haxorus
Blissey
Slowbro
Lucario
Jirachi

A Rank:

Hide

Ampharos-Mega
Crobat
Infernape
Suicune
Alakazam
Chandelure
Alomomola

A- Rank:

Hide

Absol-Mega
Nidoqueen
Aggron-Mega
Aromatisse
Florges
Azelf
Forretress
Froslass
Honchkrow
Krookodile
Mienshao
Nidoking
Roserade
Sableye
Shaymin
Swampert
Starmie
Snorlax

On cursive the ones that are different from the original list, i'll explain laters.

 

[President Shinra]

No real point moving Slowbro, given that it's moving up. Definitely agree with A Rank Chandelure, as well as A+ Rank Jirachi.

 

[Kyuzeth]

No real point moving Slowbro, given that it's moving up. Definitely agree with A Rank Chandelure, as well as A+ Rank Jirachi.

I know tier changes aren't to be discussed in this kind of thread, but is Slowbro going OU in a week?

 

[Limitless]

Someone else can run this because I don't care anymore.

This thread takes a lot of time and energy to maintain and it seems to all be for nothing. At the end of the day, these are all subjective rankings. All I can do is rank them to the best of my ability. I chose to listen to people who actually play UU, rather than others who don't. If you have a problem with that subjective call, then whatever, maintain this thread yourself. As if I'm gaining anything from wasting my time trying to make everyone happy.

Have fun.

 

[KM]

i'll do it

edit: with bouff and meru if meru is up for it

edit2: i'll be making a new viability thread and it'll be organized by me bouff and meru, will start it after the new drops. will also be tracking viability rankings over time

 

[KM]

~dingbat and calloflochie have been added to the viability leaders~

(i'm still best though ofc)

p.s. lochie is in because i forgot about him not because he asked

don't ask to join

DON'T

we still love you

 

[FlareBlitz]

Can I make a couple of suggestions:

1) If a Pokemon is not UU by usage or not worthy of at least B- rank, it should not be ranked at all. This will honestly eliminate a lot of the stupid bullshit and clutter while still allowing us to keep relevant RU threats like Melo and Doublade in the list. Sorry to everyone out there repping Avalugg but no one gives a shit about your Pokemon in UU. This also helps prevent rank inflation, since it's much harder to justify putting a UU mon in C rank that may rightly deserve it when it's hanging out there with trash NU mons.

2) Come up with an initial viability ranking list, and then allow free discussion on changes within ranks based on the current metagame. This has the advantage of allowing you to maintain historical data better (i.e. instead of "viability rankings as of 8/27" it becomes "Hawlucha Metagame Viability"). It also allows discussion to focus on what is relevant right now, and allows contributors to discuss rankings based on current playtesting instead of theorycraft or "this one time I used this mon" logic.

 

[KM]

tfw

flareblitz's suggestions are literally the suggestions i made as soon as we got control of the thread (pretty much). i'll cp them, one sec

• 
  D rank will be removed, and the C ranks will be compressed into one large C rank (no + and -). This acknowledges the fact that fucking no one uses anything below B, so you can hardly have a reasonable ranking as no one has experience with it.

• At every tier shift (three months), we as a group will decide on preliminary rankings for everything in S to C rank based on the rankings before the drops and if anything was affected by the drops. Then, it will be up to the community as a whole to shift and adjust these rankings through their experiences. There are no constraints e.g. only discuss these two pokes.

I will be recording where everything ends up at the end of each three months, and I'll be plugging it into a spreadsheet that i'll capture the image of to post on the second post in the OP to show the changes in viability of pokemon through the meta.


so yeah. I'm pretty much on the same page, but I still have to get feedback from the rest of the people. any more suggestions you guys have we'd love to see them though.

flareblitz there is actually quite a lot of viable stuff that is used a fair bit in the c ranks, so I don't think we can chop it off that much, but we'll definitely be looking to clean out some of the shit

also, we won't be doing metas by the suspects because those are entirely temporary and we've never done viability by that. We'd be switching everything's viability every 10-14 days just to undo it after that, and that really doesn't seem like a good use of time.