XYUU Research Week V2 #4

[Mazz]

Shout-out to Kitten Milk for the excellent suggestion to revive this project!

I've ran Research Week projects since Black and White, and one of the major issues I've noticed is that getting participants has always been a bugger. Today, that problem is hopefully no more! I present to you a fresh take on a classic idea, Research Week V2! Once again, I welcome UU-ers and all those looking for an excellent competitive Pokemon experience! Unlike last time where you chose between a number of Pokemon, you'll now be choosing between a number of Pokemon sets.

Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:

• Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; look at its stats and typing and think something up!
• Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.
• Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.
• Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon or movesets I choose and / or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you..

A few things to clarify:

• Sign-ups can be as late as you want, but cut-off days will be on Tuesday (also the day that I post a new thread)
  
• Early period means the first three days of the Research Week, so let's keep the theorymoning to a minimum after. The late period refers to the last four days of the research week, where raw evidence and discussion should become the basis of the thread.
• The prizes for Research Week have been decided; winning a Research Week will grant you half-ops on our IRC channel, #xyuu. You'll also earn yourself a Community Contributor nomination point. Collect ten of those, and you will be nominated for a Community Contributor badge!
• I'm implementing a mandatory discussion in order to be considered as a winner of Research Week. If you do not post one somewhat-coherent post that describes the pokemon that you're using, their roles, and their niche in the metagame, you will be disqualified from winning this week. Please post about your experiences no matter if you think you've got a chance to win or not.
  
• Finally, I'd like to implore you to all please remember to post and save your replays. Often, these replays are the most informative sources of information about RW pokemon - you can write a full two paragraphs about the role of a pokemon, but often that can all be summed up with a video and an explanation of it.

This Week's Research Pokemon:

Bronzong / Chatot / Combusken / Cradily / Ditto / Spiritomb / Vivillon​

How useful are these Pokemon in XYUU? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon? How well do they work in the metagame? If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning. Remember, discussion is not limited to this topic, you are encouraged to talk about these Pokemon in #xyuu as well!

The Research Group Challenge:

In order to participate you must do the following:

• Post here with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.
• Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.
• Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!
• Post logs of this Pokemon in action against other teams - don't just tell us, show us!

The first stage of the challenge will be very relaxed so theorymon will be allowed as long as its backed up by good reasoning. During the later stage, discussion will be expected to be backed up by hard evidence, such as teams, actual sets, and logs. The winner of the challenge will be the person who has the highest ladder ranking on the Pokemon Showdown UU ladder on the alt they registered at the time the challenge ends. Winners will also receive a permanent spot in the XYUU Hall of Fame (found in the Resource Thread).

 

[Mazz]

So, before anybody asks, there's a few things going on this week:

• I was asked to put Bronzong in this Research Week because it is in the C- -Rank on the Viability Ranking Thread
• I took this idea and ran with it, and figured that Research Week could move in a direction to help the Viability Ranking Thread (maybe just for this week)
• Admittedly, I couldn't think of any good sets to use, so I took an easy way out
• Nothing in this installment of Research Week has a required set. It's up to you to find a niche for the Pokemon you use and report the findings here and at the Viability Ranking Thread
• King UU will not be playing, since he's won a couple of Research Weeks already, and I'd like to see a variety of players winning each time (he's okay with this)

That should be it for housekeeping duties. Just remember that I check the ladder before I close each installment to determine the winner, so ladder until I've announced that I'm closing it or have closed it.

 

[Bouff]

I guess I'll play this round; or, try to at least.


Alt: MadVillanAccordion
Pokemon: Bronzong

Having a SR setter that walls the Nidos at the same time is pretty cool; I think it'll fit well on a balance team, provided it has the right support, although it has somewhat poor offenses and a weakness to Knock Off is annoying. We'll see how it goes.

 

[dodmen]

Gonna give it a shot with Spiritomb.
Alt: dread pl8

Kind of a cool answer to a lot of threats in UU. I think everyone decent knows what it does so it's probably gonna create a bunch of mind games.

I think chicken pass is gonna be kind of hard to pull off in this metagame to be honest, we've got way too many powerful wallbreakers and Combusken is sooo slow even at +1. But I guess we'll see.

 

[Kink]

I will sit on the sidelines this time and watch from afar.

Besides, I have to watch all of your replays to take notes for viability ranking.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

Awesome, I'll be using Cobusken since I've been a long believer that little fire chicken is a better Speed Boost baton passer than Ninjask.

Alt: TBO Play Freebird

 

[slated]

Using Spiritomb this week.

Alt: Spiritombed

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176932810
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176935121
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176935756
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176936174
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176937743
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176940332
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176943285

Beginning Analysis:

So I've played 8 battles so far, and spiritomb is pretty swag. I'm running the basic pursuit/sucker/shadow sneak/willo set, and while in some battles it hasn't done too much, it does make a nice answer to a lot of attackers in the tier. It has a good chance to 2hko stuff like Nidoking with sucker punch, and its typing is incredible. It checks 3/4 of the s rank mons (rachi, luke and megazam) and i run scarfrachi and empoleon for hydreigon. The rest of the team is kinda standard; there's a mega amph/empoleon/vap core, spiritomb for checking fightings of course, scarfrachi to check grass types and sub sd cobalion to break stall. it's been pretty cool but idk. I haven't exactly fought very many good people and at least half of them have just lost to sub sd cobalion. New analysis coming when I hit 1500 or so.

 

[newfren]

I might have to rebuild one of my old stall teams for this to be honest - I've had great luck using ditto on them as a sorta catch-all set up sweeper check. The awesome way it deals with lucario, most haxorus, now most mega-zam - basically every frail set-up sweeper in the tier. It also helps my match-up against other stall by giving me a basically unlimited pp aromatherapy/heal bell user.

Name: billfren
Pokemon: Ditto

 

[BenzMafia]

I will sit on the sidelines this time and watch from afar.

Besides, I have to watch all of your replays to take notes for viability ranking.

I believe there is nothing that stops you from building a team including those pokemon and laddering with it so you can have some thoughts about how much viable they are from the first hand. Just don't officially register.

 

[Kink]

I believe there is nothing that stops you from building a team including those pokemon and laddering with it so you can have some thoughts about how much viable they are from the first hand. Just don't officially register.

aww, see Mazz? people DO care.

 

[brightlights]

alt: Dong Ding

For whom the Bronzong tolls.

 

[Roseguardin]

Alt: Failed Nirvana

Using Spiritomb

EDIT: Just sticking with Spiritomb for now, sorry

Preliminary Observations: I'm trying CroTomb, which is essentially Crocune tailored to fit Spiritomb. As I'm not the best at creating sets, I decided to go with the standard, which is:

Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
To support, I added a Tspiker/Stealth Rocker in Nidoqueen, and a Fairy killer and trick absorber in Tank Mega Aggron. Aggron also carries dragon tail to stop boosters, but I might change it depending on what the team needs. Finally, I've got Starmie on rapid spin duty and Infernape as a revenge killer. Again, both are subject to change. I've only got one replay so far of Spiritomb actually doing something, and it's right here:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-177090893. Keep in mind that this was lower-ladder (also I made a couple of dumb plays early game lol) and I'm not entirely sure whether I could've beaten Umbreon without him PP stalling me out (another reason I'm on the fence about Infernape).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-177278163 Another Spiritomb sweep. It sets up very well against Tentacruel and other bulky waters that try and scald burn it thinking its. Again, this is lower ladder (~1200s or so).

 

[Ashley11]

Alt: Fun with Birds

Using: Chatot

It's an interesting pokemon with some potential imo. we'll see.

 

[lucariomaster2]

Alt: Vivillonmaster2

I'll try using Vivillon.

Initial thoughts from before laddering: Vivillon is one of the better early-game bugs in Pokemon, having two main sets: a Focus Sash lead, and a Quiver Dance sweeper. I'll try using the second set, the idea being to come in on something slower and use Sleep Powder, and then Quiver Dance and sweep with Hurricane and Bug Buzz. Team support will be needed to remove Pokemon faster than Vivi and mons that can switch into Sleep Powder (aka Grass-types and Mega Absol), and Pokemon such as Mega Aggron who would otherwise wall it. Finally, Vivillon doesn't like sneaky pebbles, so Rapid Spin or Defog support will be a must.

First observation: I have gotten higher on the ladder with this team than with my normal team. Make of that what you will.

Second observation: Quiver Dance Vivillon is a pretty good win condition and late-game sweeper, but it is very difficult to use. If done right, it can sweep an entire team. If done poorly, it will kill 1 or 2 mons max. The opponent's Steel-types MUST be either gone or severely weakened before you attempt to set Vivi up, as the resist both STABs and will wall Vivillon to the Distortion World and back.

Third observation: A list of things that must be gone for Vivillon to sweep. This list may be expanded as time goes by.
-Stealth Rock (No explanation needed)
-Priority users (Vivillon is very frail and prone to revenge killing)
-Steel-types (As previously mentioned, they wall it.)
-AV Sap Sipper Goodra (Can switch into Sleep Powder for +1 Attack, tank Hurricane and Bug Buzz, and scare it away with Outrage)
-Sash users must have their Sashes broken. SashZam gets a special mention because Magic Guard makes it immune to hazards.
-Everything immune to Sleep Powder. This means Grass-types, Overcoat mons (lol), and especially Magic Bounce mons.

Fourth observation: You must keep at least 1 mon that is outsped by Vivillon and vulnerable to Sleep Powder alive; this means that you MUST scout what item it has; a Lum Berry means no sweep for Vivi. In a dire situation, you can run Sash and try to set up on something faster, but then you're incredibly vulnerable to revenge killing.

Replays of the little butterfly:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176752685
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176758615
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176791806
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176980752 - this one highlights how Vivillon can only sweep once its counters are removed.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176985755 - I mess up early on, but Vivillon performs its job with 1 HP left.

Here are some replays of what NOT to do when using Vivillon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-177001826 - I try to set up too early... and pay the price.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-177005742 - I killed the only mon I could set up against. Oops. Also Air Slash hax.

 

[IronBullet]

Alt: Thedivisionbell

Pokemon: Bronzong & Spiritomb

Zong's an excellent support Pokemon with its bulk, SR and Levitate which is a huge advantage over Jirachi and Metagross. Basically any attackers whose only way past steels is a Ground move like Aero, Flygon, Snorlax, Kyurem, the Nidos, Shaymin and Celebi are completely countered by it.

Spiritomb seems like a cool check to a lot of special attackers and fighters like Luke and Shao, plus Infiltrator Sucker Punch and WoW is just sexy.

 

[Doobies]

Alt: Viv On Doobies
Pokemon:Vivillon
Why?: I used a vivillon to great success earlier in UU on a team Consisting of Vivillon / Suicune / Krookodile / Mew / M-Manectric / Toxicroak

It was good fun to use however in more recent times i tend to prefer a focus sash zam, quiver dance + stab 91% hurricane + 97.5% sleep powder is nothing to laugh at though despite the crippling sr weakness. Anyway I'll start laddering and hopefully I can post some games I had fun with ;)

Edit 1: Been having some fun low ladder and a nice Vivillon sweep vs a (somewhat bad) opponent who has two mons resisting both of Viv's stabs and also an ampharos.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-177039564

Dugtrio works really nice with viv since it can trap and kill mons such as empoleon/ ampharos / Magneton who give Vivillon a hard time.

Edit 2:Vivillon dissaproves of zygarde dragon tailing :(
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178058462

Current presence of zygarde makes getting rocks away or preventing them even more important since his phazing is irritating so theres another thing added to the long list of things Vivillon doesn't appreciate. The new team i've been using however can work around Zygarde if I play well and try to avoid giving it a free dragon tail.

Edit 3:Intitially starting the week using duggy which was fun to pair with Vivillon and definitely had merit, I changed the team up and have played what is overall a far more solid team.

I'm pretty bad at explaining how the team works, but essentially I have Vivillon, CM cune and choice scarf Mienshao who are all very capable cleaners at the end of the game. Bulky gons typing compliments Vivillon extremely well whilst also being able to defog away the hazards that Vivillon hates. Metagross helps me break fairies and tends to force a lot of switches allowing me to set up rocks of my own.

Finally I stuck amphy in the team because it helps me bop some of the waters that can tank a boosted hurricane and would otherwise cause me problems, it also helps me keep momentum which is vital in the entry hazard mind games that ensue from using Vivillon. M-amphy is just an excellent mon in general imo ;D

Hide

Vivillon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Hurricane
- Bug Buzz
- Sleep Powder
- Quiver Dance

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 196 SpA / 60 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

Mienshao @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Overall I would say Vivillon is okay, if certain mons are eliminated then it can be truly threatening but it definitely needs a solid team built around it, it's certainly not something you can slap on any team due to a large number of checks/counters within the tier as mentioned by lucariomaster2

You really have to be bold with your boosts on vivillon and use grass types / predicted switches on the opponents team to nab the extra boosts, with a lot of bulk running around the tier those extra boosts are massively important. An example of me failing to do just that below :( If your opp has for example a 1% galvantula and no grass types with a healthy blissey, he probably isn't gonna let it sleep :D
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178274080

A final note is that it definitely seemed to be a theme that I would keep vivillon in the back healthy unless I had to bring it out, Hazards + CM cune would often dent an opposing team enough for Vivillon to finish the job, this is apparent within my replays.

Various Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178352462
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178357475 - flygon and vivillon make plays in a good high ranked game
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178685477 - the nemesis lol (would have liked to played out but he forgot ice shard)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178692455 - Vivillon and team mvp sub cm cune hit 1600 :)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178741124 UU room tourney final :p

 

[lucariomaster2]

Doobies, could you post the set you're running on Dugtrio? I'm curious as to how it works.
I've been tinkering a bit more with a team built around Vivillon, and the biggest thorn in its side when it comes to sweeping is definitely Steel-types. Dugtrio works fairly well, but I'm curious as to if Magnet Pull could be effective. The only usable Magnet Pull Pokemon in UU is Magneton, but it becomes quite bulky with Eviolite and beats Empoleon, the Steel-type I've most commonly faced. Another option could be to run Air Balloon to avoid Metagross's Earthquake, but Metagross takes neutral damage from Bug Buzz and can thus be beaten by Vivillon.

EDIT: Playtested Magneton a bit. Plain and simple, it doesn't work. At all. It's frail even with Eviolite, and it just doesn't hit hard enough to reliably remove the Steels it's supposed to trap.

 

[Doobies]

Hey I played you earlier on the ladder :)
The dug im using is just standard band dugtrio with arena trap

Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Aerial Ace
- Stone Edge

It's not going to take a hit so bring it on a predicted switch / electric move or after your opponent gets a kill and you can trap a lot of threats to vivillon. Also works nicely when u-turning from crobat.

 

[Waiv]

in

prof. waiv ◕‿◕
bronzong
spiritomb

Slowly getting out of low ladder
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-177782353
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-177794289


- Spiritomb confirmed as pretty hard counter to toxicroak
- Bronzong working well with flash fire pokes
- Working in tandem to maintain trick room

Dropped spiritomb after finding that it doesn't fit within the team
intergrated more viable threats in an attempt to get to 1500s

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-uu-178571341

Zron Bong
(Bronzong) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs:
252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Explosion

I must say this thing eats up hits!

252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Bronzong: 140-168 (41.4 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mienshao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Bronzong: 98-116 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Bronzong: 175-207 (51.7 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bronzong :
Weaknesses: Dark, Fire, Ghost,
Resistances: Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel
Immunities: Poison, Ground

It's immunity to ground and tons of resists let's it stay alive to set up trick room at least once or twice. I preferred running some Atk EVs and replacing toxic with Iron head (flinch hax) which is more effective on offensive minded teams. Definitely a viable Pokemon in this current metagame (i hate flamethrower Nidoking). It's drawbacks are easily paired with a Pokemon such as Arcanine or even Hydreigon (heatproof). Watch out for Haxorus (mould breaker) and random fire attacks (hp fire), however usually explosion prevents it from becoming setup fodder or the like.

Overall Bronzong would benefit greatly from an item which elongates TR, however it is in my eyes the most reliable trick room user.

 

[Pokemoon]

this sounds fun :)

In cause wynaut?

pokemon: Chatot
alt: SkarmoryLife

 

[Mazz]

Just a reminder that this installment ends on Wednesday.

 

[dodmen]

Okay so Spiritomb.

The set I'm using is the following:

Spiritomb @ Dread Plate
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split/Taunt

Basically it just traps a certain big threats in the metagame like Jirachi and Alakazam, while providing some additional utility with WoW. Pain Split is definitely useful for getting back some HP vs Blissey and the likes, since I don't have any other form of recovery. Taunt is more situational and I've found Pain Split to come in handy more frequently.

It does its job pretty well but it does create a lot of mind games and a lot of times it'll just boil down to 50/50s vs players who know what they're doing (admittedly I haven't laddered high enough to encounter many of these people). My main issue with it, though, is its inability to really directly do any damage. For example there's literally nothing it can do against defensive Pokemon besides annoy Blissey with Pain Split. It really only comes in handy when the opponent has one of the following Pokemon: Jirachi, Alakazam, Chandelure, certain Celebi, SD Lucario, Toxicroak, and certain frail fastmons like Darmanitan and Noivern. Otherwise it's generally fodder and at best makes the opponent hesitate to click HJK when that's relevant. I think Spiritomb might have a role on stall using a more defensive spread as it can threaten Sub SD stuff that generally destroy stall and check Alakazam and stuff. But its role on offense is really limited because it doesn't have any way of directly damaging an opponent. If it got Knock Off, maybe there'd be a different story.

Its also complete, 100% setup fodder for Mega Absol and Houndoom which are nasty for offense to face once they set up so I had to play really carefully when those were on the opposing team.

Anyway, like I said, Spiritomb doesn't really have a defined role in many, if not most, games so I struggled a bit to find replays where it was relevant, but here they are:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176624766 - Spiritomb kind of manages to slow down a Jirachi
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-176461447
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178153975 - some decent predictions lead to 2 kills.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178157767 - lol this is literally the extent of Spiritomb's usefulness sometimes

If you check that last replay, you'll see what I mean about Spiritomb's inability to directly do damage becoming really disappointing. Basically I'm able to wear down a Crocune to 15% and asleep, but the opponent could easily take advantage of it only having Sucker Punch and Pursuit in order to clear hazards and heal up their Suicune.

Overall I certainly wouldn't say it's a bad Pokemon, but it definitely has a very specific niche on offensive that many teams don't necessarily need.

Edit: some more replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178825369 - mind gamed a Jirachi. This is the perfect example of how Spiritomb just relies on 50/50s vs good players to win.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-178823630 - can't do anything to a Blissey

 

[DiscoDucky]

Although I'm not participating in this week's Research Week, I would like to put hilarious's Curse Spiritomb set, which allows defensive-oriented teams deal with both set-up sweepers and a multitude of other Pokemon. back when Blissey was a thing, pokemonisfun used Curse against defensive Pokemon to significantly reduce their defensive potential. Just a refresher, Curse can't be cured unless you switch out. All in all, it's a cool set to think about as the week winds down.