Zero Sum Meta

[Asumi]

Both of you missed the infinite loop I was talking about. There's no loop in move execution, just the way it will be coded (until it's clarified).
There really shouldn't be any loops at all, I was just asking the author to clarify.

Here's a simple example of the loop I was talking about, which will apply if Heal→Damage:

1. Pikachu deals 20% damage to Unown
2. Pikachu heals 20% HP (from damage dealt in #1)
3. Unown takes 20% damage (from Pikachu getting healed in #2)
4. Pikachu heals 20% HP (Unown took damage from #3)

...and so on until either Pikachu gets 100% HP (can't be healed anymore) or Unown faints.

Then after this is coded properly, there's still this:

1. Oddish uses Giga Drain and deals 20% damage to Unown.
2. Oddish recovers 20% HP from metagame (will no longer trigger damage if fixed), and 50% of Giga Drain damage (default move effect).
3. Unown takes damage from Giga Drain's default healing.
4. Oddish recovers HP (from Unown getting damaged again in #3).

No loop there, but it would break leeching moves by giving them more healing and power (they will deal extra damage equal to how much %HP you gained from the move's leech effect).

 

[AWailOfATail]

It shouldn't be hard to just make damage a one time thing. Like

Pikachu does 20% to unown
Pikachu heals 20%
the end

In fact, I've already done that. Just had to change the damage function. However, I haven't had a chance to code more since the new rule, so I'd probably have to update the heal function, which would definitely cause some recursion. Should be a way to adjust the if statement I've written to make sure it's direct damage, just change the effectType.

so yeah progress is being made
SR damage used to crash the battle but now it doesn't, still no heal though. That's my next priority.

Drain Punch and the like don't necessarily heal by the way, they drain. Right now:
Pikachu uses drain punch for 20% on unown
Pikachu heals 20%
Pikachu heals half of raw damage

It's coming along. I'll talk to Megazard on PS when I get a chance to clarify how some elements should work.

 

[hausdog]

Yeah, any damage that the game deals just results in a heal for the pokemon that dealt it, and vice versa. So if my 160 HP pokemon uses Giga Drain on your 400 HP pokemon and deals 80 damage (20%), your pokemon loses 80 HP from the damage, I naturally heal 40 HP (25%) from the giga drain damage, I heal 20% from the zero sum rule applied to your giga drain damage, and you lose 25% from the zero sum rule applied to my natural HP gain off of Giga Drain.

(or if my 10 HP focus sash oddish does it you lose 90% from the zero sum rule and just fucking die lol)

Low-HP draining pokemon new meta?

 

[tysequaine]

#WishDesireJirachi2k16

 

[AWailOfATail]

Progress! still need to test out recoil and life orb and such, fixed damage moves, and Heal Block. However, everything else is working great :) Expect code by weekend, if not tomorrow.

Also, while testing to make sure everything worked, I've realized a couple things. Slow attackers are fantastic. I'm personally placing bets on Conkeldurr. Just move last and recover the damage you've just taken. Also, Rest seems pretty sketchy. Considering how it's a 99% heal at maximum (and therefore 99% damage to the other Pokemon), it may be more centralizing than we think. Then again, you're asleep. Who knows?

But yeah, I managed to get around some of those coding loops. So it's not

Pikachu does 20% to Unown
Pikachu heals 20%
Unown takes 20% damage from metagame's rules
Pikachu heals off of that
etc.

Instead, it's just

Pikachu does 20% to Unown
Pikachu heals 20%

For curious people, I just gave the new functions an effect of 'metagame rules' and only activated the functions if the damage or heal was called without 'metagame rules'. Also sometimes the % will be off by a number, has to do with rounding. Using floor instead of ceiling may make it more reliable, so I'll try that out tomorrow. Expect it to be playable soon!

 

[Asumi]

Things still not clarified:

• Will using Substitute heal my opponent 25%?
• Will using Belly Drum or Ghost-type Curse heal my opponent 50%?
• Will ability-based recovery (Water Absorb, Volt Absorb) damage my opponent?
• Will end-of-turn recovery (Leftovers, Rain Dish, Poison Heal, Ingrain) damage my opponent?
• Will suicide moves (Explosion) heal my opponent for my remaining %HP? If yes, which will occur first: the damage from Explosion or the heal from zero-sum?
  
• Will one-time recovery items (berries and Berry Juice) damage my opponent?
  
• Pain Split

lol

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
IVs: 0 HP
- Recycle

Get in (be sure there are no spikes or rocks), spam Recycle.
Opponent damages you (heals 99%) → Sturdy activates → Berry Juice heals you for 99% → Opponent gets damaged 99% (faints if there's prior damage) → You Recycle the juice.
This would be hilarious if you have set up some hazards of your own, because everything trying to attack just dies until Magnemite runs out of Recycle.

Pain Split + Sturdy works too (Nosepass).

Also, Wobbuffet now usable? :P
Counter Chansey too.

Crustle/Carracosta looks great because of Shell Smash + Sturdy. Near-infinite Sturdy uses.
Sturdy will become the bane of offensive teams without Mold Breaker / multi-hit.

Also, Rest seems pretty sketchy. Considering how it's a 99% heal at maximum (and therefore 99% damage to the other Pokemon), it may be more centralizing than we think. Then again, you're asleep. Who knows?

This is actually the first thing that came into mind when I first read that recovery moves deal damage. HydrationRest or EarlyBird / ShedSkin will be a nightmare for non-setup sweepers.
I'm already seeing offense to be "Setup or GTFO", because the meta itself is stall heaven.

 

[MZ]

It's not that they aren't covered it's just that most weren't blatantly stated but are accounted for in the rules. But just to cover them

Things still not clarified:
Will using Substitute heal my opponent 25%?

Yes, but I imagine it's still decent because of non-attacking moves getting massive buffs

Will using Belly Drum or Ghost-type Curse heal my opponent 50%?

Yes

Will ability-based recovery (Water Absorb, Volt Absorb) damage my opponent?

Yes

Will end-of-turn recovery (Leftovers, Rain Dish, Poison Heal, Ingrain) damage my opponent?

Yes

Will suicide moves (Explosion) heal my opponent for my remaining %HP? If yes, which will occur first: the damage from Explosion or the heal from zero-sum?

Yes. The second one I hadn't actually thought about so it's a good catch, but since the foe takes damage before you faint I'm gonna say that the damage from Explosion goes before the heal from zero-sum (AWailOfATail if it doesn't automatically do that)

Will one-time recovery items (berries and Berry Juice) damage my opponent?

Yes

Pain Split

Yes. This one's gonna be wacky since you heal/take damage twice but also reliant on very low health enemies moving first. It also doesn't have a very good distribution which hurts it, plus things like Sableye miss out on the reliable recover damage. Still, could be cool.

 

[Asumi]

Prankster Pain Split from Sableye/M-Banette looks pretty terrifying though.


I forgot something about Rest: Natural Cure
Rest Chansey omg
Shaymin/Celebi works too

 

[bp scrub]

Prankster Pain Split from Sableye/M-Banette looks pretty terrifying though.


I forgot something about Rest: Natural Cure
Rest Chansey omg
Shaymin/Celebi works too

Rest Chansey seems like it could be pretty ridiculous lol

Chansey at 50% health with 252 HP evs would deal over 350 damage with a rest, which is more than what most offensive pokemon have

 

[En Passant]

The damage dealt/healed to the opponent is the percent of their health, so healing from 50% will deal half of the foe's max health no matter who is healing or how.

 

[AWailOfATail]

Megazard the way the simulator handles Explosion is weird. It tells the code that the user fainted, then does damage to the opponent, then faints the user. I've put the healing function in the "telling that it fainted" part because after that, the user has 0 HP. However, when I do that, it heals the opponent before damage is dealt. I'd like to put the function in the part that "faints the user" but unfortunately it's impossible to tell how much damage has been done in that function and I can't find any way to fix it. I'll keep trying :/

Curse/Sub/other stuff listed works

Haven't approached pain split at all lol, too scary for me. Will do it soon though

 

[MZ]

Megazard the way the simulator handles Explosion is weird. It tells the code that the user fainted, then does damage to the opponent, then faints the user. I've put the healing function in the "telling that it fainted" part because after that, the user has 0 HP. However, when I do that, it heals the opponent before damage is dealt. I'd like to put the function in the part that "faints the user" but unfortunately it's impossible to tell how much damage has been done in that function and I can't find any way to fix it. I'll keep trying :/

Curse/Sub/other stuff listed works

Haven't approached pain split at all lol, too scary for me. Will do it soon though

I based my guess off of how I thought explosion mechanics worked. Since the text saying they took damage/fainted/whatever appears before damage to the opponent happens, I think the way it currently exists is fine. I take that text to mean they're taking damage before the opponent is.

 

[Groovy groudon]

Fear looks to be amazing in this meta as stuff like aron dont need a shell bell to heal off endeavor damage

 

[hausdog]

pain split:

Rotom uses pain split on Kyogre
if Rotom has less HP than Kyogre:
Rotom's gain numerator is (Kyogre's Current HP - Rotom's Current HP) / 2
Rotom's gain percent is Rotom's gain numerator / Rotom's Max HP
Kyogre's loss numerator is Rotom's gain numerator
Kyogre's loss percent is Kyogre's loss numerator / Kyogre's Max HP
Rotom gains (Kyogre's loss percent + Rotom's gain percent) * Kyogre's Max HP
Kyogre loses (Kyogre's loss percent + Rotom's gain percent) * Kyogre's Max HP

So a Rotom with 10 HP out of a maximum 200 uses Pain Split on a Xerneas with 160 HP out of a maximum 400.
Rotom's gain numerator is (160-10)/2, or 75.
Rotom's gain percent is 75/200, or .375
Xerneas's loss numerator is 75
Xerneas's loss percent is 75/400, or .1875
The total change percent is .375 + .1875, or .5625
Rotom gains .5625 * 200 = 112
Kyogre loses .5625 * 400 = 225

Actually yeah, tiny sturdy pokemon are probably going to be a factor.

 

[hausdog]

I'm worried the whole game will boil down to a bunch of sturdy level 1 pokemon or things with focus sashes getting out a stage hazard and then sweeping by almost dying and full-healing off a pain split over and over again. Like, here:

Pineco @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Probably Toxic or something?
- Um, you can be a Rapid Spin user too.

Turn 1 stealth rock and use berry juice if you take damage, turns 2-infinity just get damaged (since your speed is 5), tank the hit with sturdy, and pain split to set both of your HP to half of their max HP plus 1 which means that you're gaining 11/12 plus a half of your HP and they're losing a half plus 11/12 of their HP (which is a lot more than all of their HP).

Now there are ways to get around that. You can attack pineco with a multi-hit move. You can do something like final gambit, which would put Pineco at 1 to be finished off later (but that's dumb). You You can say that Pain Split just sets both pokemon's HP to the average of their HP, and it doesn't actually do damage or heal (which is still pretty good, it turns it into a near-super fang combined with a full heal for a few more turns of sturdy without it being broken). I think you should leave Pain Split unchanged, since it doesn't really feel like "damage" or "healing," flavor-wise.

 

[MZ]

I'm worried the whole game will boil down to a bunch of sturdy level 1 pokemon or things with focus sashes getting out a stage hazard and then sweeping by almost dying and full-healing off a pain split over and over again. Like, here:

Pineco @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Probably Toxic or something?
- Um, you can be a Rapid Spin user too.

Turn 1 stealth rock and use berry juice if you take damage, turns 2-infinity just get damaged (since your speed is 5), tank the hit with sturdy, and pain split to set both of your HP to half of their max HP plus 1 which means that you're gaining 11/12 plus a half of your HP and they're losing a half plus 11/12 of their HP (which is a lot more than all of their HP).

Now there are ways to get around that. You can attack pineco with a multi-hit move. You can do something like final gambit, which would put Pineco at 1 to be finished off later (but that's dumb). You You can say that Pain Split just sets both pokemon's HP to the average of their HP, and it doesn't actually do damage or heal (which is still pretty good, it turns it into a near-super fang combined with a full heal for a few more turns of sturdy without it being broken). I think you should leave Pain Split unchanged, since it doesn't really feel like "damage" or "healing," flavor-wise.

Not much point in nerfing pain split since endeavor magnemite and the like would still be around for comparable issues. This thing is destroyed by sub and hazards and mold breaker like always, but if it's a massive issue then suspecting Sturdy would likely be the best course of action because it would eliminate all level 1 mons from doing BS stuff.

 

[AWailOfATail]

Actually, hausdog made a good point.

You can say that Pain Split just sets both pokemon's HP to the average of their HP, and it doesn't actually do damage or heal (which is still pretty good, it turns it into a near-super fang combined with a full heal for a few more turns of sturdy without it being broken). I think you should leave Pain Split unchanged, since it doesn't really feel like "damage" or "healing," flavor-wise.

That's because it isn't. On the sim, Pain Split simply doesn't use the damage function. Instead, it just uses sethp. Neither does Explosion; it just passes the Pokemon through the faint function and doesn't actually call the damage function.
Endeavor, though, does have a damage callback, meaning it should apply there. Haven't actually tested Endeavor, though. But if we really want to get technical, then no, damage is not being done for Pain Split and selfdestruct moves. Up to Megazard though.

 

[MZ]

I'm sorry, I skimmed over and missed the significance of that part. If it doesn't use the damage function then it shouldn't be counted as part of the healing process since it's not really damage, plus this seems like an acceptable way to balance pain split. If endeavor is also set hp then it can also be discluded. This is why I don't code

 

[Mr Spaz]

One thing that hasn't been clarified within this thread:
If a Pokemon with Regenerator switches out, will the opponent take damage?

 

[MZ]

One thing that hasn't been clarified within this thread:
If a Pokemon with Regenerator switches out, will the opponent take damage?

No, not only would it be kind of ridiculous for easy healing but it's also happening off of the field

 

[Lcass4919]

so seed damages the opponent...heals you for the percentage lost...heals you again for specific amount lost, then damages your opponent based on the percentage you gained from the heal? thats so complicated. lmao. but hey, thats technically a huge buff for leech seed if my brain math is correct.

 

[pyuk]

I'm worried the whole game will boil down to a bunch of sturdy level 1 pokemon or things with focus sashes getting out a stage hazard and then sweeping by almost dying and full-healing off a pain split over and over again. Like, here:

Pineco @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 1
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Pain Split
- Stealth Rock
- Probably Toxic or something?
- Um, you can be a Rapid Spin user too.

Turn 1 stealth rock and use berry juice if you take damage, turns 2-infinity just get damaged (since your speed is 5), tank the hit with sturdy, and pain split to set both of your HP to half of their max HP plus 1 which means that you're gaining 11/12 plus a half of your HP and they're losing a half plus 11/12 of their HP (which is a lot more than all of their HP).

Now there are ways to get around that. You can attack pineco with a multi-hit move. You can do something like final gambit, which would put Pineco at 1 to be finished off later (but that's dumb). You You can say that Pain Split just sets both pokemon's HP to the average of their HP, and it doesn't actually do damage or heal (which is still pretty good, it turns it into a near-super fang combined with a full heal for a few more turns of sturdy without it being broken). I think you should leave Pain Split unchanged, since it doesn't really feel like "damage" or "healing," flavor-wise.

1. Stealth Rock is unnecessary.
2. Any kind of end-of-turn chip damage like burn or sandstorm breaks sturdy, ensuring a KO with full recovery on the next turn.
3. Taunt.

 

[pyuk]

Oh, and one thing that needs clarifying: how does shell bell work? I ask because shell bell Aron becomes nearly unstoppable if shell bell's recovery causes damage.

 

[MZ]

Oh, and one thing that needs clarifying: how does shell bell work? I ask because shell bell Aron becomes nearly unstoppable if shell bell's recovery causes damage.

I don't see how this is any more broken that regular endeavor (it just basically performs the same function). Nothing can really happen until it's coded which I'm still waiting on but I don't see any reason that shell bell needs an up front ban

 

[bp scrub]

I don't see how this is any more broken that regular endeavor (it just basically performs the same function). Nothing can really happen until it's coded which I'm still waiting on but I don't see any reason that shell bell needs an up front ban

Shell Bell seems kinda useless anyways when endeavor is already healing you to full hp.