Tournament ZUPL VII - Discussion Thread

Tuthur

Tuthur

im very gnawty
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ZUPL VII is around the corner, and there are some discussion points to tackle before it starts.
  1. Tiers - When 2025 Circuit Discussion thread went up, there were discussions about removing ORAS from ZUPL. One of the main criticism has been the lack of an established pool, with most of the pool being composed of self-bought managers, and making it very hard to draft for. With ADV growing at the time, there was a consideration to replace ORAS by ADV. The dynamic of both tiers have changed since then, how do people feel about it now?
  2. Slots - Another way to include ADV without removing any slot, would be to expand from 8 to 10 slots. Most PL these days have 10 slots already, with some even having 12.
  3. Franchises - This hasn't been brought up in previous discussion threads afaik. However, some teams like Fiery Flamencos, Morpeek-a-boos, and To Pimp A Butterfree have became icons of ZUPL, and as some of their original managers are retiring, it could be great to introduce franchises to ZUPL.
You can bring other discussions points if you think we missed anything. There is a huge chance we don't change anything from last year, as it went very smoothly, but we'll consider anything brought up in this thread.

ZUPL will also be delayed by 2 weeks to account for ZUWC being delayed by 2 weeks due to qualifiers.
 
ADV ZU slot should absolutely be added to the tour. As we saw in Olympiad there is a lot of hype surrounding the tier, and many players will sign up solely to play ADV ZU. I think dropping ORAS would be a mistake for sure and the move would be to go towards 10 slots.

Curious what people think about a BO3 slot rather than an extra SV slot when going toward 10? Would be a good way to get more SS gaming which I feel like it deserves being one of the more developed ZU tiers. Obviously a lot more effort would have to go into this slot and it could be annoying but I wanted to throw it out there at the very least.
 
Just want to say two things after reading the OP because I'm looking forward to ZUPL this year to get revenge on OBB haxing me:

1) Expand to 10, but never more than that. 10 slots will let you properly include all the gens that would want to be included or that should be included with it looking like

4SV / SS / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV

Very unmickey and respectable way to do the tiers similar to how basically every lower tier PL does it I believe. In my experience, doing 12 slots waters down a these lower tier tours by making it way too big way. The PL should be the tour that's the most "prestigious" and that's created through competitive pools, established gens, and just a general tour atmosphere, all things that can be controlled by the size of the tour. I find 12 in general to be too much, especially as a manager who has to deal with 12 slots to help prep, but if a ZU tour wants to go that large, it should probably be a side tour with the goal of including RBY-SV. Flex slots are also a good way to get around the side tour being so big and I love flex slots hint hint @ tooth hint hint @ bait hint hint @ fish hint hint @ zause

2) Yes yes please do franchises. It adds so much feeling to the PL by creating consistency, team camaraderie, prestige, long term planning for retains to encourage scouting newer talent, and more. I feel so much prouder and more motivated when I'm a part of the same franchise over and over again (GO VIVS) and I wish that PLs across the board would go back to keeping franchises, which is also something that's been discussed a lot internally on the NU end as well. Not sure what the best criteria is to establish them, but may I suggest 3 straight ZUPLs or successful ZUPLs to qualify for franchise status or just general iconic teams like the Butterfrees?
 
Adv zu player pool is stacked in both of the team tours it’s been allowed in, both of which had no custom. At least two of the players who made top 6 or top 4 of a competitive money tour still play the tier and will likely play in zupl. The Meta game is mostly balanced and allows for many different play styles due to solid glue Pokémon. Olympiad adv pool was one of the strongest in the tournament. I support poke slice’s proposed format.
 
Replacing ORAS with ADV is utterly nonsensical. The only discussion we should be having about ORAS is whether it should be added to ZUWC next year, assuming the tournament happens again—not whether it should be removed from any existing tour. I don’t particularly care about ADV; honestly, I think the meta is pretty bad. I also don’t understand how it gained enough traction to be hyped up as a potential replacement for ORAS. That said, if there’s genuine interest in including ADV, I don’t see why not expand the tour to 10 slots. Bo3 is the go-to for the 10th slot if we're really adding ADV imo, SV4 is a really NPC pick and if you consider that most people don't really love current SV ZU I think Bo3 goes out as the logical conclusion. As for franchises, they already soft of exist, and I don't think there is a need to enforce them.

Honestly I'd keep the format from last year but ADV deserves a spot at this point if they ask for it. ADV games in olympiad had in general a higher level than most of the other metas which is surely telling something towards the decision to be made here.
 
Ngl, I'm not such a fan of a Bo3 and I think 4 SV is generally better, or 3 SV and 2 SS but the people aren't ready for that. On a serious note, I think Bo3 can be really hype in the right setting if there are enough players who can play 2/3 or 3/3 of the tiers at a high level, but this isn't usually the case. On top of that, it's way easier to get burnt out as a player prepping for Bo3 from what I've seen. 4 SV also gives more people the opportunity to get drafted while putting the focus on cg which I see as the angle of most team tours being played in the cg anyways. I know SV ZU isn't so great, but SV in general just isn't so I don't think that should be a hit at the format which should prioritize more cg gaming, especially since Bo3 will also have SV.

Now if people feel like there's enough good players to play Bo3, then try it out, but I'm skeptical personally
 
1: No surprise but I obviously prefer ORAS to stay in the tour. Feel like the tier has seen some new light recently with new faces putting time into it. Managers resorting to playing the tier feels like a weird argument against it, more so that the ORAS mainers found a liking to manage.
2: I see the point of ADV inclusion, ADV as a generation has a big playerbase and from what I've been told (didn't follow last zu team tours too closely) the level of play was high last tour? I don't see a world where you replace ORAS with ADV however. It would have to be by making it 10 slots (which seems really up to date if you look at other lower tier PLs). For last slot I'd definetly make it Bo3. You'll have to build 4 SV teams regardless and both SM and SS have been around enough now where there's plenty of stuff to reuse if you don't feel like building. Bo3 tends to draw a specific clientele in form of signups and tends to be high quality in general. SM and SS are also 2 of the best ZU gens and I know a lof ot people would wanna see more of those.

3: If you do Franchises just wipe all teams and make 8 new franchises, preferably with a common theme (see UUPL, SCL, SPL and to an extent RUPL). If you don't wanna do this then I don't really see the point.
 
I think adding ADV ZU is a win win for the ADV player base and ZU community alike especially with its rise in popularity. Why put out the flame to a tier that has seen so much growth and support by the player base, and even spectators alike? I’m obviously biased here because I’ve put a lot of effort into getting ADV ZU more tournament opportunities but I don’t think this detracts from the gist of my case.

There has been a lot of meta development and even more so with ADVLTL I featuring the tier! I never totally understand the dislike of the tier from other parts of the ZU community but I don’t really think that matters much. The ADV community is large enough to support the tier on its own and the tier is very deserving of a slot.
 
For the sake of the discussion: I think Pokeslice has brought forth the best option for formatting. I’m not really partial to franchising, but I’m not against the idea to give players a sense of legacy and community.

On a personal level: I get irritated by this continued talk of outright cutting ORAS from tours every cycle. Doubly so when it’s used as a talking point to add ADV, a metagame that should have been recognized for a while now. If this is such a pervasive problem in the tournament scene, I’d appreciate it if instead of using it as a talking point for the x-tenth time we have these threads, there would actually be discussion with the ORAS team on finding a solution here. I’m aware it’s not the intent, but this comes off as a slap in the face when council takes the time to look over resource and tiering development.
 
I think the best format for ZUPL is a ten slot tournament; general interest and competitiveness of ADV ZU is more than worthy of a slot in ZUPL, and as much as I’ve had mixed thoughts about ORAS in the past I think not having it in ZUPL would be a massive mistake, especially with how the tier’s continued to develop and garner interest over the past few months. I positively adore the idea of 3SV / 2SS / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV, but I think 4SV / 1SS would be perfectly reasonable as well. I feel like a Bo3 slot could be pretty cool as well; there’s quite a few capable players able to play all of SV, SS, and SM and I feel that it’s a good way to incorporate these more recent generations into a slot without it feeling stale, not to mention TwiTT’s point towards general high quality in Bo3 slots.

I’m very ‘whatever’ about franchises - I see fully valid arguments both to introduce them and to maintain freedom for managers to decide team names. I know franchises create long standing identities behind teams and that can be a fun way to connect different iterations of a PL, but they can also feel limiting for newer managers at times if they don’t particularly connect with any of the existing franchises. I suppose only introducing a few franchises rather than a full 8 would mostly alleviate this issue, but it’s still something I’m pretty on the fence about overall and would love to hear some more thoughts about if people have more decisive opinions on them.
 
From an outsider perspective, I think expanding ZUPL to 10 slots is the move here -- it allows for the addition of ADV ZU and something else while allowing ORAS to maintain a slot, keeping both sides happy. I certainly have enjoyed ADV ZU and think it would be a good addition, and expanding from 8 to 10 slots just allows for more people to participate in general, which could hopefully lead to more exposure and development for ZU as a whole.
 
10 slots + ADV inclusion

ADV continues to be an active and alive metagame. It would be a shame if we weren't given the same support within our home tier as some of the other ADV Metagames, considering the sheer numbers it has been able to pull in every ADV Tour it has been a part of. The custom Avatar prize will only increase the already substantial number of ADV players looking to compete. I don't think there's much else to say here aside from just conforming to popularity 10 Slot PL's. Like, even without ADV's inclusion, 10 Slots should still be something ZU implements.


EDIT: If 10 slots then there should be 1 Bo3
 
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I would totally vouch for ADV ZU inclusion. The tier is getting continuous growth these last months & in all recent team tours, ADV ZU has been ultra competitive.
As the others said, the pool of ADV ZU players is very stacked with varied playstyle & people that always try to find new strats to improve the metagame ad win. The tier is fun & you can always see great support behind ADV tiers, since the generation is very popular.
The tier is fun & competitive, would recommend :blobthumbsup:
 
Removing ORAS from ZUPL is unprecedented and not a path we should start to stray onto. The tier is actively trying to better itself with recent tiering dicussion, is getting more representation in ORAS Underground (which could see more activity from the ORAS community in future ZU tours), and has a plethora of people arguing for it to stay. Removing it would be silly.

I think ADV has been able to justify having a place in ZUPL. The pool was very strong and competitive in ZUOL (which did not contain a CA) and is seeing more inclusion within the ADV scene in ADVLT. The ZU community cares enough about having it in, so I don't see why not.

That being said, obviously I am in support of 10 slots in this next iteration. Add ADV and a 4th SV slot. I am against Bo3. From what I have seen in tours that I've participated in, it's usually not as hype as people want to say it is and there isn't a ton of prep work involved (just reusing or sprucing up proven teams) because of the natural laziness that can come from having to prep 3 teams for the week. The official Smogon team tournaments don't do this for a reason. I would rather see a 4th SV slot so there is more opportunity to push the meta. Trying to add a 2nd of any other tier seems like it would be a flop because there really haven't been strong old gen players left in the pool at the end of ZUPL drafts, so the current gen should take priority since it's a lot easier for non-ZU mainers to get into. Please don't consider 12 slots.

I think locking into names that not everyone would enjoy for franchises seems wrong. I'd rather go along with an idea of uniformity by using themes among team names, and maybe having the mod team and hosts make sure the teams names are acceptable. You can have team names carry on like the ones listed in the op with a blessing passed on by the previous managers, but forcing people to use certain names seems meh.
 
Think we should do 10 slots, but if we do 8 drop ORAS, it's nowhere near as popular as ADV and has a weak pool every year. As for the 10th slot, I think Bo3 is best by far, (SV SS and SM are most popular ZU gens imo) and I'm pretty sure most other tiers have it as well (PU and RU for sure). If we choose to opt against Bo3 though just go 4th SV tbh, 2nd SS is fine too, I guess. 12 slots are cursed, and I don't think we have the player base to support it. I like franchising, especially if at least one of the managers is returning, I strongly dislike uniformity, however. I think it frequently shoehorns bad names. This is especially apparent in RUPL, for example, where teams with weak names like "Rockies' Defiant Payloaders", "Prime Protosynthesizers" and "Party-Crashing Pranksters" are present. If we do franchising, I think it's best to franchise the most relevant teams, like Flamencos, Frees and Pekos so that someone has to use them, but not the less relevant teams. I don't like the argument of "they do it in officials", but franchising does occur in SCL I believe.
 
Non-biased takes

1. I think ORAS should stay, just as in a historical standpoint. Even though some of the points of the playerbase being not that interested on it might be true (not sure though), I think it should stay and we should do what number 2 says.

2. Making the tournament bigger, to 10 slots, which would allow to include ADV which has been a raising star lately in ZU. I think we reached a point in which we have a solid community and we could definitely try that. So many ZUWCs and ZUOLs also helped to have some teamtour guys around.

3. I would LOVE to do that. I do not know how we should plan to do this, like do we have to decide which ones? I do not know.

By the way, besides I am washed in ZU, I would love to co-manage with someone. Just let me know if someone is looking for a co-manager!
 
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