Counter That PokemonCounter That PokemonWhat was it?Counter That Pokemon was originally a project created in the UU forum, which was then adapted to the other tiers. The basic idea was for the community to create two separate teams, designed to "counter: each other. OU was rather late to run this project, however NixHex decided it was time to give it a go, and as such, it recently got developed. How it Turned OutTeam #1First Pick In beginning of Counter This Pokemon, Team #1 needed to select a Pokemon. Many Pokemon were nominated, however, it was quickly determined that leading with a weather dependent Pokemon would lead to problems in the future, with Team #2 being able to counter with Swift Swimmers, or opposing weather. As such, Pokemon that could work well in many different types of weather such as Terrakion and Latias proved popular. In the end, however, many users decided to support ginganinja’s nomination of Meloetta, which many users wanted to see work in OU, and many felt that thanks to Meloetta's forme changing abilities, it would provide some difficulty to be countered. Meloetta also opened up the opportunity for Team #1 to pick Politoed later in the project, letting Meloetta abuse a 100% accurate Serene Grace Thunder, something that could have the potential to be troublesome. Team #2First Pick Right from the start, Team #2 had a tricky time countering Meloetta. Sableye was initially suggested, but the threat of Rain, and the fact that Thunder easily 2HKOed led people to turn to alternative options. Celebi and Latias were the frontrunners due to their ability to easily switch in, shrug off the damage, and threaten to boost themselves. Psychics themselves were very popular in this stage, as Cresselia, Gothitelle, and Deoxys-D were all suggested as well, primarily due to the fact that they could switch into a LO Psychic or Close Combat depending on what forme Meloetta was in. This stage was rather messy, since people initially did not realise that they were building a "team" and not just strictly trying to counter Meloetta. As a result, NixHex threw out many of the nominations that he felt were too gimmicky. In the voting stage, it was Pockets unusual NP + Thunder Wave Celebi which won the most support due to it utterly walling Meloetta, while threatening to cripple anything Team #1 could switch in with Thunder Wave, while also threatening to sweep Team #1 clean with Nasty Plot. Access to Natural Cure also frustrated Meloetta, due to it avoiding any possible status that Thunder or Relic Song could inflict. Team #2Second Pick Team #2 now got a second pick, and it had the option of choosing anything. The community debated as to what would work best, with Heatran and Terrakion being some of the earlier nominations. This stage was also when support of a weather starter began to pick up, with many arguing that selecting Tyranitar or Hippowdon would limit Team #1 from selecting Politoed and easily winning the weather war. At this time, there was a very strong fear of Team #1 picking Tornadus-T, which would destroy Celebi, thus, support of some sort of Steel-type was high. After a close run voting period, Skore's specially defensive Heatran won out, just edging out DrunkDemon's Sub Salac Terrakion by a single vote. Heatran was a more conservative choice for Team #2, as it was chosen due to its excellent synergy with Celebi, as well as its access to the ever important Stealth Rock. Team #2 was clearly unsure as to what direction it wanted to focus its teambuilding towards, and felt that Heatran gave them a lot more options that Terrakion did. Team #1Second Pick It was time for Team #1 to pick their second Pokemon, and many found it tricky to handle the powerful CeleTran Core which Team #2 had at their disposal. Of more concern was the fact that both Heatran and Celebi could cripple a switch-in with a burn or paralysis; this made the number of choices very small, as it was thought that there was very little that could switch into this core and not care about either status. The community quickly discovered Heatran as an excellent option for utterly walling the opposing Heatran on Team #2, as well as walling Celebi and giving Team #1 Stealth Rock. It was a good idea, but it was an idea constructed by Team #2. Pocket and Skore had constructed their submissions in order to encourage Team #1 to select a Heatran, thus giving them a less than useful pokemon if they eventually decided to use Rain. It was a clever tactic, but it ultimately backfired when ginganinja discovered NP Thundurus-T could use Celebi for set up fodder, and nuke the CeleTran Core with its powerful attacks. It was around this time that the discussion picked up massively, as people began to understand what the project was about, and people took it upon themselves to discuss each nomination and point out strengths and weaknesses. Xelacalle and ganj4lF were but two posters who did this quite a lot, and this encouraged other people to do the same, which enabled people to make better submissions to each team. Team #1 ended up picking the ginganinja nomination of Thundurus-T after it blitzed the voting in record time. Team #1Third Pick Team #1 felt that they had a good advantage over Team #1 already, and Xelacalle decided that Team #1 should focus on looking at what Team #2 might use to counter Thundurus-T (and Meloetta), and decided to encourage the community to select something that would "counter" any counters that Team #2 might use to beat Thundurus-T. This sort of foresight was exactly what the OU staff wanted to encourage, as it fostered strategic thinking among the community, as well as thinking ahead, useful skills both in teambuilding and in battle. Latias was quickly pinpointed as a major threat to Team #1, which lead to some serious consideration for pokemon such as Jirachi and Scizor to handle it. The community quickly discovered that finding a pokemon that countered Latias, but was successful against Heatran and Celebi, was exceptionally tricky. Jirachi, Genesect, Scizor, and Metagross were all discussed and popular. In the end, the community was worried that selecting 3 specially biased sweepers would be a mistake, and as such, in a close vote, opted for the powerful Choice Band Metagross to handle a possible Latias that Team #2 might use, while giving Team #1 an excellent physical sweeper in case Team #2 opted for a special wall. Team #2Third Pick This stage was characterised by an excellent post from Electrolyte, which stated that Team #2 had to pick a team style, due to Celebi and Heatran forming an excellent core that could work on balanced or stall. At this stage, weather starters such as Tyrantiar, Hippowdon, and Ninetales were commonly nominated to better counter the possible Politoed that Team #1 would pick. The downside to these nominations was that Team #1 could actually handle many of those weather starters in their 3 pokemon core, with Thundurus and Meloetta threatening the above pokemon with their powerful special attacks. Rotom-W, Gastrodon, and Jellicent were also very popular suggestions, as both completed the F/G core that Team #2 currently had, while providing a solid balanced core which, on paper, could handle most attacking types. Magnezone was also a massively popular choice, which, while not patching up the weaknesses of Team #2, opened up the possibility for Latias for the next pick, severely threatening Team #1 as Latias could shut down Meloetta and Thundurus-T fairly easily. Again, the voting was tight, but this time most of the community decided on a Scarf Rotom-W, which could revenge kill Thundurus-T and Meloetta while easily walling Metagross. This was a clever pick, since it also fared well against Rain if Team #1 selected Politoed, and Trick was also a good move to have to shut down wall Team #1 might use to counter Rotom-W. Team #2Fourth Pick Like the previous stage, Electrolyte posted early on, deciding that Team #2 needed a physical hitter due to every single member hitting on the special side of things. The focus "physical hitter" was rather vague and as such, many physical hitters were nominated, such as Mamoswine and Terrakion, both of which threatened to rip through Team #1, which currently lacked any real defensive pivot or wall. Electrolyte's Mamoswine was a landslide victory, and was an excellent pick, due to it shutting down any other weather Team #2 might use (matching up well against Ninetales, Hippowdon, and Tyranitar). This was an excellent tactical decision since it forced Team #1 into Politoed becoming more and more likely, which Team #2 could then exploit by loading up on Rain counters / checks. As a bonus, Mamoswine also shut down any dragons Team #1 might use (which was an excellent prediction by Electrolyte, since he realised that many Rotom-W counters were weak to Mamoswine), and checked Tornadus-T, the main powerhouse of Rain, while also handling Metagross and Thudurus-T. In short, Mamoswine was a very strong pick for Team #2, a pick that would frustrate Team #1 in the future. Team #1Fourth Pick It was time for Team #1 to pick, and I believe it was at this point that people were slightly confused as to how to handle Team #2's recent selections. Both Rotom-W and Mamoswine could handle or revenge kill much of Team #1 and it was tough to find a counter to these pokemon that didn't instantly lose to other members of Team #2. It was clear to everyone, that Team #1 had Thundurus-T as their "ace," however it was now checked by two members of Team #2 and, as such, they needed to think defensively to counter the dual threats of Mamoswine and Rotom-W. I think the community was a little downhearted as there was some discussion as to whether Metagross was the correct pick for Team #1 the previous round. Regardless, a pokemon had to be selected. Infernape and Kyurem were the dominant choices for Team #1 in the voting stage. Infernape was initially very popular, however, ginganinja hijacked the voting, claiming that Team #1 absolutely needed a water resist. Momentum swung toward Kyurem, which went on to win the voting in a close finish. As a result of nominating (and winning) 3 out of the 4 team members for Team #1. Ginganinja effectively became the captain for Team #1 after this vote, while the Team Captain for Team #2 was still undecided. Team #1Fifth Pick Hazards, was the focus of this part of Team #1. Many believed that a possible Dragonite / Volcarona pick could be damaging to Team #1, and as such, people really wanted a Stealth Rocker for this pick, as people wanted the sixth and final slot to be open to a last minute Politoed, which would prevent Team #2 from countering it easily. The stage was also characterised by a discussion on a rapid spinner. People were aware that team #1 had only 2 picks left and that they needed hazards, a spinner (due to having 2 SR weak pokemon), and rain support from Politoed. This lead to an intense discussion towards the end of the nomination phase as to whether Thundurus-T and Kyurem could function without a spinner, and it was eventually argued that if we put enough offensive pressure on Team #2, and on Heatran, we could prevent Stealth Rock going up, thus preventing it from hampering Thundurus-T and Kyurem. This discussion was rather significant since it announced a shift in the way the community was thinking. Instead of focusing on full out countering Pokemon, checking and putting offensive pressure on the opposing team were foremost ideas in the communities mind, as people came to realise that 100% counters were not always the best options, and that pokemon that checked and retained momentum were possibly better. Nominations were rather scarce in this round, and the community made an almost unanimous decision in favour of SR Terrakion, submitted by alexwolf. Terrakion was the popular pick due to it being able to KO every single member of Team #2. It also put pressure on Celebi, the team's only fighting resist, and threatened to weaken it enough that Meloetta could attempt a Relic Song sweep, or at least rip through the lineup of Team #2. Team #2Fifth Pick Faced with the powerful Terrakion hampering their own Heatran, as well threatening to set up Stealth Rock if it got a free switch (which wouldn’t be too hard), Team #2 realised it needed a hard counter to Terrakion, or at least a check, lest it clean sweep them. Team #2 were also worried about the recent Sub Roost Kyurem pick for Team #1, which could set up a sub on Rotom-W and Celebi and threaten both Heatran and Mamoswine with a powerful Earth Power. Scizor, Landorus-T, and Breloom were the popular suggestions, as all three could threaten Team #1, and as a bonus, could also frustrate Politoed, which was looking like a more and more certain pick for Team #1. All three threatened to sweep after a respective boost (Breloom and Scizor with SD, Landorus-T with a Rock Polish boost), however the voting stage proved interesting, as CB Scizor and SD Scizor ended the voting period on an equal number of votes, which led to NixHex having the decisive vote. He eventually decided on CB Scizor, submitted by Temp V1. The choice by Team #2 to pick Scizor has actually been recently debated in the Counter This Pokemon thread. Several players wondered if Scizor was perhaps the best option, and there are arguments both for and against this. It is my opinion that Kyurem and Terrakion put Team #2 under tremendous pressure, which almost shoved them toward Scizor, since it was one of the few pokemon that could go head to head with both. Breloom and Landorus-T were weak to Ice, so while on paper they could check Terrakion, in practice Team #1 could exploit this weakness to Kyurem by consistently bringing in Meloetta, forcing in Celebi, which could then be vulnerable to Kyurem setting up a free Substitute, and snatching back a KO. CB Scizor prevented this from becoming a factor, as its Bullet Punch shut down Kyurem, while also providing more priority for Team #2 in revenge killing threats. Team #2Sixth (and final) Pick This was the final Pokemon for Team #2, and there was quite a lot riding on it. Team #1 had one slot left, and the community was well aware that Politoed was looking to be a very likely choice for Team #1. Aided by this knowledge, there was a community wide effort to find something that could sweep Team #1 cold, as well as the possible future Politoed Team #1 might add. The discussionion was not just limited to this; many users had also illustrated the various weaknesses of Team #2, just in case Team #1 avoided Politoed, and decided that Infernape and Volcarona were various threats to the team. There was minor controversy, as Team #2 decided to nominate the not currently OU Garchomp, which would utterly dominate Team #1 if allowed. NixHex and newly appointed moderator ginganinja did eventually rule that since Garchomp was technically uber at the time, it should not be allowed, but there was no denying that Garchomp would have caused a severe headache for Team #1. I think, at this late stage, the community was unsure as to what was best for Team #2. They had done a great job of listing the various problems they suffered from, but lacked one strong pokemon that could 100% counter all of them. Personally, I believe that some of the threats, such as Volcarona, were threatening on paper, and could be played around; however it's a personal opinion, and you can make your own interpretations. Regardless, Temp V1 and alexwolf did a joint submission in the form of LO Infernape, and it was an excellent pick. Infernape put Team #1 in a tough position as it cleanly KOed every single member while also dealing heavy damage to Politoed. It was a crafty pick, since defensive Politoed could be easily handled by Celebi, which Team #1 could counter with Thundurus, which Team #2 could handle with Mamoswine, forcing a possible KO. On the only hand, Scarf Toed couldn't really switch into Infernape, and it would be forced to use its water STAB, something that Celebi could take without too much trouble, giving Team #2 excellent momentum. As a bonus, Infernape could also revenge Terrakion with Mach Punch. From my perspective, Team #2 was very much built around using its excellent FWG core to wall threats, and then strike back hard with Mamoswine and Infernape, blasting through Team #1, abusing the fact that they lacked a strong defensive core. Team #2 seemed unstoppable, and was in an excellent position with Team #1 having the final pick. How would they respond??? At this stage, despite Temp V1 and Electrolyte submitting the exact same number of Pokemon on Team #2, Electrolyte was made team Captain, with Temp V1 the back-up). Team #1Sixth (and final) Pick As stated above, Team #1 had their work cut out for them. The stage was pretty much defined by a massive tl;dr post by ginganinja, which analyzed both strengths and weaknesses of both teams, and then nominated Conkeldurr, which was exceptionally hard for Team #2 to revenge kill. The Conkeldurr nomination was favourable to pretty much everyone, but then ganj4lF basically stole the show with an excellent nomination of Deoxys-D with HP Fire + Fire Gem, This totally wrecked Team #2, as well as walling Infernape. It was fairly ironic as everyone had twisted themselves up into looking at full offensive threats, and Team #2 had entirely neglected to think of the defensive threats, and Deoxys-D threatened to destroy Team #2 with Spikes. Alas, as a final pick, there was actually nothing Team #2 could do to counter this, as Team #1 utterly ignored the Politoed nominations (which had previously looked so likely) in favour of Deoxys-D, which became the final member of Team #1. Team BreakdownTeam #1Team #1 was pretty much pure Hyper Offense. I am unsure if the Meloetta first pick directly encouraged this, but certainly it was an aggressive choice! Between Deoxys-D and Terrakion, Team #1 had access to Stealth Rock and Spikes, something that actually put Team #2 under a load of pressure, due to most of their team being hit by Spikes. With Terrakion and Thundurus-T, Team #1 had no shortage of heavy hitters, while Metagross and Kyurem could also dish out the hurt. Despite the power Team #1 packed, it actually had a few weaknesses that Team #2 could exploit. Deoxys-D was their primary defensive wall; if it got hit with a critical hit, Team #2 would be very vulnerable to counter attack. In addition, Meloetta and Metagross especially struggled with many pokemon on Team #2, limiting their chances to make an impact in the game. Team #2Team #2, I believe, was almost designed to be balanced. They had a strong FWG Core and 3 priority users, which meant that they could revenge kill any offensive threat that looked dangerous. Mamoswine acted as the team's main powerhouse, as Team #1 lacked an effective answer to it. Infernape was the team's back up sweeper and cleaner, KOing every single member of Team #1 bar Deoxys-D, which made it a very large threat. On the defensive side of things, Heatran threatened to set up Stealth Rock to hurt Thundurus-T and Kyurem, while Celebi could administer paralysis support or threaten a sweep with Nasty Plot. Despite having a well balanced team that could revenge kill / check many offensive threats, Team #2 did lack an effective answer to Deoxys-D, and Celebi, Rotom W, and Heatran to an extent forfeited momentum to Thundurus-T, Kyurem, and Terrakion respectively, Pokemon that Team #2 could ill afford to give free turns to. THE BATTLEElectrolyte and ginganinja failed to find a time that would work for both of them and, as such, Temp V1 took the place of Electrolyte, as he had an excellent timezone with ginganinja. After a massive amount of hype (nah im jk), the two players finally managed to battle on Pokemon Showdown! Battle #1 (The breakdown)The actual logs are posted in the thread, so feel free to go read them if you want. Battle #1 was started with ginganinja leading with Terrakion, while Temp V1 led with Heatran. ginganinja had the upper hand matchup wise, and successfully nailed Heatran with a Close Combat, as Temp V1 predicted a Stealth Rock from Terrakion. Rotom-W was then brought in and quickly lost its Choice Scarf to Terrakion, which made it a lot more difficult for Team 2 to handle Deoxys-D, which proceeded to wall Infernape with ease. Thundurus managed to cripple Scizor and Rotom-W, which made it even easier for Deoxys-D to wall Team #2. Temp V1 attempted to overwhelm Deoxys-D with Infernape Overheat + Mamoswine + Scizor but ginganinja coolly sacrificed other team members to weaken the Infernape overheat, and eventually won a few turns later, having successfully LO stalled Infernape out. Battle #2 (The Breakdown)This battle was much longer than the previous one, as Temp V1 gained an early advantage with Rotom-W matching up with Deoxys-D. Rotom-W again lost its Choice Scarf to Kyurem on Turn 1 of the battle, and resulted in both players attempting to predict each others moves. Team #1 lost Kyurem to a well-played Mamoswine, however ginganinja struck back with a crippling Close Combat on Scizor, effectively removing it from the match. Things were evenly poised when Terrakion and Scizor matched up a few turns later, Scizor on 1% health. ginganinja gained early advantage when he assumed that Temp V1 would predict him going to Metagross as had happened in the previous battle, so he stayed in to Close Combat and successfully hit Mamoswine on the switch, KOing it. Nailing Mamoswine was a big victory for Team #1, and when Terrakion managed to set up Stealth Rock, basically killing Scizor, Deoxys-D was able to set up 3 layers of Spikes before dying, allowing Thundurus-T to switch in and clean up (Infernape having fainted to LO + hazards), giving ginganinja victory and bragging rights. So what did we learn?I personally feel that this project taught the community a few things. For starters, it encouraged the community to think harder about finding counters and checks for certain pokemon. For example, it's easy to find specialised counters for certain Pokemon, but finding counters that work in a team setting is a difficult task. Preserving Momentum was also a big part of the project; sure, Blissey might wall 3 members of Team X, however it would totally kill any momentum, and might be vulnerable to Physical sweeper Y. It also encouraged people to think of offensive checks, using offensive pressure and checks to handle some big threats. Far too often we see the argument "but X has no counters" and it's true. However, I think this project reflected that with smart teambuilding, you can play around some threats by playing aggressively. An example of this would be the Infernape selection on Team #2, which utterly destroyed Team #1's intentions to pick Politoed, since Infernape could just rip through Team #1 if Politoed was added. Other people might have learned other stuff, and I would be happy to hear from them, but the above was just what I took away from this project. Are there any problems or flaws with the project that might need more discussion?I think that problem of the "last pick" is something that should be discussed more. There was a strong opinion from many of the players that watched the battle, that Deoxys-D as a last pick utterly destroyed Team #2, thus giving Team #1 a massive advantage due to Team #2 being unable to counter a final pick. This is actually a fair point, however I think it's a problem that can be played around provided Team #2 is aggressive in their teambuilding. For example, I can pinpoint the Heatran selection by Team #2, as an opportunity missed, as it didn't really threaten Team #2 offensively. It was a "passive" selection and therefore didn't dictate teambuilding from Team #1 as much as it could have. On the subject of weak picks, I honestly think both teams made mistakes choice wise. I don't wish to single out any person / Pokemon, but for example, Kyurem might not have been the greatest pick for Team #1. It was a good water resist, and it could handle Ice attacks from Mamoswine, however it failed to account for Rotom-W tricking it a Scarf, and as such it could not use Earth Power without giving Rotom-W a free switch in. This forced it to spam Ice Beam, which gave Scizor / Heatran / Infernape good chances. I think that this is something that just happens, and something that can be easily avoided in the possible future. Future SuggestionsThe project was a massive success, and while it resulted in a fair amount of work for all people involved, it could easily be run again. Just something to take away, here are some observations that I made during this project.
Final WordsA massive thank you to everyone who participated, from the OU mod NixHex who ran it, to the people like Temp V1, Pocket, alexwolf, Electrolyte, Lavos Spawn, Xelacalle, and ganj4lF (sorry If I missed you, please don't take offence) who all posted excellent, in depth analyses from each nomination, to the people that actually nominated and voted on stuff for either (or both) teams. Without you guys, this project would not have been successful, so thanks to everyone that got involved! |