-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Time for an election, Canada
- Thread starter Tracker
- Start date
To the guy about the gay marriage thing... He wanted to re-open it and make the decision democratic. That was all. Christianity != opposition to gay marriage; there are a huge number of non-Christians who oppose it and a huge number of Christians who not only accept it, but actively support it. (My own view is that the government should issue only civil unions and not give anything called a "marriage", because that way nobody can contest it. And of course, those civil unions should be open to homosexual couples, as they have been for some time now. Very few people dispute the right and need of gay and lesbian couples to have some sort of legally-recognized union.) Blind ignorance/discrimination against Christians is no different from the blind ignorance/discrimination against homosexuals that you are opposing.
Which in conclusion solidifies my independant Québec views, which I believe is the only part of Canada that sees itself as something else. That is proud to be different and even seeks to put emphasis on those differences rather than remind everybody around them that they'd rather just fit the mold and pass off as a flavourless country.
What you say doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, the rest of Canada seems to be obsessed with trying to have a culture and be different from America, not content to be bland. (Whether or not they succeed is a different matter, but I'd argue that Québec's play-the-spoons-and-put-syrup-on-snow culture isn't really that great either. At least they're comfortable with sex though.)
Independent Québec is a bad idea on the basis of economics alone though. I'm pretty sure you actually can't support yourselves. What the separatists want is all the economic benefits of being a part of Canada without any of the "responsibilities" (what are those, precisely?) that they presently have. To me, that's absurd- you can't have one without the other.
That said, if there was a proposal to separate and actually not continue taking money from Canada, I'd probably support it. I feel no particular obligation to keep Québec around if all you're going to do is complain how much you hate it here.
Which in conclusion solidifies my independant Québec views, which I believe is the only part of Canada that sees itself as something else. That is proud to be different and even seeks to put emphasis on those differences rather than remind everybody around them that they'd rather just fit the mold and pass off as a flavourless country.
What you say doesn't make any sense to me. If anything, the rest of Canada seems to be obsessed with trying to have a culture and be different from America, not content to be bland. (Whether or not they succeed is a different matter, but I'd argue that Québec's play-the-spoons-and-put-syrup-on-snow culture isn't really that great either. At least they're comfortable with sex though.)
Independent Québec is a bad idea on the basis of economics alone though. I'm pretty sure you actually can't support yourselves. What the separatists want is all the economic benefits of being a part of Canada without any of the "responsibilities" (what are those, precisely?) that they presently have. To me, that's absurd- you can't have one without the other.
That said, if there was a proposal to separate and actually not continue taking money from Canada, I'd probably support it. I feel no particular obligation to keep Québec around if all you're going to do is complain how much you hate it here.
Fuck, I know it has a low chance of happening, but I honestly want Dion to sweep this election by an upset. I honestly just don't want Harper as our PM anymore, and it seems to me like the Liberals are the only other ones with a chance of winning. It would be quite funny if NDP miraculously won though...I do wonder what an NDP Canada would look like...(not that I'd vote for NDP, but you've gotta admit, it does arouse the curiousity meter).
I don't know if I am any more comfortable with Dion representing Canada internationally than Harper (Ok I lied I am but I still don't like the idea). To me he just comes across as a bumbling idiot, for all of you Americans who always say "hey what happened to that funny french speaking guy".... you haven't seen ANYTHING yet.
Edit: I should specific that I don't think he looks like a bumbling idiot BECAUSE he is french
Edit: I should specific that I don't think he looks like a bumbling idiot BECAUSE he is french
It was a democratic decision. It was decided after a vote by all MPs which are elected by the people. Unless you want a nation-wide referendum on this question alone...
I doubt this is what is suggested here.
Sure, it emphasizes on its local differences. Happy to remember people here watch hockey for example. Other than that, it makes no effort to encourage local talents, the reason being culturally Canada is just the same as the US. At the Junos for example, the movie that year after year receives the Golden Reel award (most watched) is a Québec movie. Those movies are generally only shown in Québec theatres which says a lot. Canada does not care about its local products, because theres no Canadian flavour to them. Mainly because Canadian flavour barely exists! Just the fact you need to bust your head obsessively to find distinctions proves it. Québec cares about local talents. Our singers, actors, comedians can make a career in Québec alone. This is not something seen in the ROC, their market is the NA market.
This is absolutely wrong. Québec can support itself without much trouble. It hasn't had a budget deficit in more than a decade and neither has Ottawa. This "leave but keep" line is based on absolutely nothing but I keep hearing it. Tell me what it means. What Canadian assets that do not belong to Québec would independant Québec keep, what Canadian money would it fund its independence on, this is bullshit and mostly stems on the suggestion Québec could continue to use the Canadian dollar after a secession, which personally I don't support anyway.
The Canadian dollar working against Québec and Ontario should be clear by now. The Bank of Canada didnt find it of interest to adjust its over-evaluation (which is however fixing itself right now, thanks to oil droping), as it would go against the money making oil industry. Québec would exert certain control over its own currency based on its needs rather than someone else's.
Québec is one of SIX provinces to receive equalization (soon to be 7). It roughly means it doesn't have Alberta's oil, not that it could not support its economy. Moreover, of the 6 provinces that receive any, it receives much less per capita than any of the others.
Québec resists the ongoing us recession a lot more than does Ontario and the Maritimes at the moment. It's many provincial governement jobs being partially the reason. Its industry evolved from mainly manufactures to also now high technologies such as aerospace, pharmaceutic products, software engineering and bio technologies. It oozes natural ressources and Hydro-Québec is a huge provincial success and exports to all its neighbours and is expending.
Québec receives 27% of all transfers to the provinces with 24% of the Canadian population. Theres a 2 billions gap. Something it can easily get from programs the federal governement pays for that Québec would not need. The insane amount of money spent on bilingualism from coast to coast in regions where french doesn't even exist is an example. Transfers to the First Nations alone costs Québec one billion more than it should, considering it has 8% of its population while it pays its part (24%). Québec invests that same part in maintaining the northern canadian territories as well, which it won't need if independant. It likely wouldn't spend as much militarily either and would not engage itself in costly overseas conflicts.
Québec also is already the most autonomous province in Canada, it takes care of things other provinces leave to the federal. Immigration for example, its provincial police, it also collects its taxes (including the federal taxes which it then redistributes). This allowed Québec to gain managing experience that would make the transition easier. Moreover, it constantly seeks more autonomy. It's current demands are the cultural & communications budget and employement insurance.
Since when did you Canucks become so fierce about the whole Quebec thing? I knew the Quebeçois were always very separatistic, but I don't remember this kind of resistance against it. Who even cares, I mean we're all world children, aren't we? Let Quebec manage its own affairs and be autonomous. It's not like in the end it wll matter.
Fuck I should move back to Canada.
Fuck I should move back to Canada.
I believe I actually said I'd be fine with them separating, Altmer, so if you're talking to me I either miscommunicated my position or you have misunderstood. The rest of Canada would be much better off without Québec and Québec thinks it would be better off without the rest of Canada.
Vin, read the Bloc Québecois plan and then get back to me. Last time I checked, they were demanding continuing financial support from the rest of Canada. It was perhaps misleading of me to say "the separatists" want that as though all separatists have the same ideas as the Bloc, though.
I didn't actually mean to piss people off. I don't seem to be good, over the internet, at expressing opinions in a manner that doesn't infuriate people, no matter what I say. (Stuff like "racism is wrong" seems to piss people off when I say it. Seriously, when did that one become controversial?)
Vin, read the Bloc Québecois plan and then get back to me. Last time I checked, they were demanding continuing financial support from the rest of Canada. It was perhaps misleading of me to say "the separatists" want that as though all separatists have the same ideas as the Bloc, though.
I didn't actually mean to piss people off. I don't seem to be good, over the internet, at expressing opinions in a manner that doesn't infuriate people, no matter what I say. (Stuff like "racism is wrong" seems to piss people off when I say it. Seriously, when did that one become controversial?)
A Quebec party is going to make demands for Quebec and vote based on what they perceive serve their interests. I see nothing odd about this. Should there be ways to get more, they should work towards that goal.
I am not sure what exactly you mean by specific demands to be "financially supported by the rest of Canada", this is certainly not the wording a separatist party would use; it would hurt their argument. A separatist party's goal would be to convince Québec would do good on its own, not that it depends on the "ROC" to do good. A good example is the Bloc's case regarding the fiscal imbalance. The goal was to demonstrate the provinces do not get the fair share they should get from taxing in this country, that the federal likely gets more than it needs while the provinces are paying for the costly health and education systems which they need more money for. That's not "rest of Canada" money and this is the sort of argument a separatist party will make.
If you've read the Bloc's program, (which I'm not even sure has an english version), which seems to be what you insinuate, I'd like you to point me in that direction.
You also didn't explain what you meant by an independant Québec seceding with canadian funds. I hear this constantly but I've yet to have someone tell me what exactly this means. Gaining independence while keeping Canadian benefits? What benefits? What independant Québec plan even insinuated would continue to collect to Ottawa and how would it manage to do it? Québec would leave with its share of all Canadians assets, a % attributable to what it paid for (about 24%). Most of this is in Québec anyway. This cannot be called leaving with Canadian funds. Moreover, it would take the same % of the Canadian debt with it as well.
I am not sure what exactly you mean by specific demands to be "financially supported by the rest of Canada", this is certainly not the wording a separatist party would use; it would hurt their argument. A separatist party's goal would be to convince Québec would do good on its own, not that it depends on the "ROC" to do good.
Oh, they wouldn't phrase it that way. Probably, they'd put it like "we are fully financially self-sufficient, but Canada should give us money to compensate for the pain we suffered under their oppression" or some such bull. You know, phrase it so it sounds like affirmative action or reparations rather than a rip-off or form of charity.
If you've read the Bloc's program, (which I'm not even sure has an english version), which seems to be what you insinuate, I'd like you to point me in that direction.
See, this is exactly the kind of thing I would expect from a separatist. Je n'ai pas besoin d'une version en anglais; je parle français. It's been about six years, so I have trouble producing proper French (I forget genders, for example), but just because I'm not Québecois doesn't mean I can't speak two languages.
Quite frankly, I am not sufficiently interested to dig through the pages and pages of policies again and find it. If you want to assume it's false for lack of evidence, that's fine with me. In fact, it is quite likely the correct thing to do. That's fine with me. I don't feel like trudging through piles of documents in an attempt to win an internet fight. Even if I did find it, would it change your or any other separatist's opinion? Surely not. The Bloc is not synonymous with separatism anyway.
Oh, they wouldn't phrase it that way. Probably, they'd put it like "we are fully financially self-sufficient, but Canada should give us money to compensate for the pain we suffered under their oppression" or some such bull. You know, phrase it so it sounds like affirmative action or reparations rather than a rip-off or form of charity.
If you've read the Bloc's program, (which I'm not even sure has an english version), which seems to be what you insinuate, I'd like you to point me in that direction.
See, this is exactly the kind of thing I would expect from a separatist. Je n'ai pas besoin d'une version en anglais; je parle français. It's been about six years, so I have trouble producing proper French (I forget genders, for example), but just because I'm not Québecois doesn't mean I can't speak two languages.
Quite frankly, I am not sufficiently interested to dig through the pages and pages of policies again and find it. If you want to assume it's false for lack of evidence, that's fine with me. In fact, it is quite likely the correct thing to do. That's fine with me. I don't feel like trudging through piles of documents in an attempt to win an internet fight. Even if I did find it, would it change your or any other separatist's opinion? Surely not. The Bloc is not synonymous with separatism anyway.
You called it, thats bull. Never heard of any such claim. This is how you see Québec politics, playing victims. Whichever complaint Québec is going to make, they're going to play victim to your eyes. Being against a political platform is not asking for compensation for pain caused under oppression, fuck me the day separatist parties actually make that claim. You'll likely hear a lot from the Bloc that the Conservatives are disconnected with realities in Québec and their aspirations, you won't hear them say we're oppressed and are suffering. They don't claim to be survivors of the holocaust, they do claim the Québécois nation is not represented well by by a Conservative governement however.
Sorry then for assuming, after all, bilingualism is not exactly a reality outside my province (12% outside Québec). Why would I not be expected to believe you are likely unilingual, I know many english canadians here, you are the only one that apparently could read french.
I can understand you're not interested enough to dig for info, after all you don't live in Québec so this isn't exactly something you live with everyday. But I'll telling you're greatly misinformed and just spit the same bullshit that I keep hearing thats lacking any sort of fundment. I asked you to explain knowing you couldn't. If you do have an opinion on the matter, when asked to explain it you should be able to.
Likely the overwhelming majority of bloc voters are separatists, the others are strategic rare voters that voted so the Conservatives don't win their riding. So yeah I'd say it is synonymous with separatism.
He lost 10 seats in Ontario alone, that's insane.
Good grief, I can finally see if I could vote Liberal again. Like I said before, I rather have nothing in my hands, rather than shit.
EDIT: He just made his speech, he said he will stay on, god damn.
Turns out I didn't even get to vote. Woke up late for my midterm at 12:00 (was intending to vote before it), followed by work at 2:30-10:00 means I got fucked hard.
To everyone that responded to my concerns about gay marriage being banned again, I recognize and understand the point being made about Harper re-opening the "issue" for a democratic vote... or whatever it was. In all honesty, it bothered me because it was something that should have stayed settled, and he needlessly brought it back up again. Overall I still hope that he and his minority government can continue to lead Canada well. They'll have less opposition this time, which will make things certainly more interesting.
Shame Dion lost so horribly, I didn't outright dislike him and I feel he has room to grow. Here's hoping he doesn't get kicked out. Also agreeing with the general opinion on that horrible interview fiasco, that was a horrible thing for Harper say and frankly I'm surprised that all of Quebec didn't revolt against him (I know I would have!)
So ends my overall worthless contribution to the thread. It was interesting to see others' views on this, though.
To everyone that responded to my concerns about gay marriage being banned again, I recognize and understand the point being made about Harper re-opening the "issue" for a democratic vote... or whatever it was. In all honesty, it bothered me because it was something that should have stayed settled, and he needlessly brought it back up again. Overall I still hope that he and his minority government can continue to lead Canada well. They'll have less opposition this time, which will make things certainly more interesting.
Shame Dion lost so horribly, I didn't outright dislike him and I feel he has room to grow. Here's hoping he doesn't get kicked out. Also agreeing with the general opinion on that horrible interview fiasco, that was a horrible thing for Harper say and frankly I'm surprised that all of Quebec didn't revolt against him (I know I would have!)
So ends my overall worthless contribution to the thread. It was interesting to see others' views on this, though.
I voted before I left for school since I wouldn't be home until... well, now. Looks like the NDP candidate in my riding won, which is good as he signed the pledge to fight Bill C-61. We were a Conservative riding coming into this election due to David Emerson's switcheroo.
Vincent, I don't like English Canada being branded as wanting too much to be American. The fact of the matter is, Canada cannot compete with the United States when it comes to the Culture Industry. They can definitely do it in Quebec due to there being little competition from the US in regards to French programming, but I feel you're blaming the rest of Canada for something that is for the most part out of their hands.
It is not only Canada that struggles with supporting our local artists. Yes, we do so more due to our close proximity to the States, but every predominantly English speaking nation has trouble competing with the United States. US marketing is huge. HUGE. Canada cannot compete with that due to economies of Scale. They have 10x our population. For TV, our stations would much rather buy American shows and take advantage of the free publicity that Canadians have already been subjected to rather than shoot their own shows and market them. It's FAR less costlier to buy shows from the States.
As for movies, iirc, most of the theatres across the country are American-owned. Marketing-wise, the same applies here. It's much cheaper to show American blockbusters than Canadian indie films.
I myself am guilty of watching mostly American shows and movies. TV and Movies are not my major interest when it comes to entertainment. It's video games. Although I pay attention more when I know a developer is Canadian, I play what I think is good. Not like the industry has proven itself mature enough to create content with much meaning yet anyway.
Quebec is in a unique position in Canada. Their language is different from the States which gives them little in the way of competition. The United States is the largest exporter of culture in the world. I'm not saying that Quebec is strong by default. I do think that Quebec has a strong focus on culture and that Canada as a nation should move towards that, but I think that you are discreditting English Canadians for something that is hard to help.
Vincent, I don't like English Canada being branded as wanting too much to be American. The fact of the matter is, Canada cannot compete with the United States when it comes to the Culture Industry. They can definitely do it in Quebec due to there being little competition from the US in regards to French programming, but I feel you're blaming the rest of Canada for something that is for the most part out of their hands.
It is not only Canada that struggles with supporting our local artists. Yes, we do so more due to our close proximity to the States, but every predominantly English speaking nation has trouble competing with the United States. US marketing is huge. HUGE. Canada cannot compete with that due to economies of Scale. They have 10x our population. For TV, our stations would much rather buy American shows and take advantage of the free publicity that Canadians have already been subjected to rather than shoot their own shows and market them. It's FAR less costlier to buy shows from the States.
As for movies, iirc, most of the theatres across the country are American-owned. Marketing-wise, the same applies here. It's much cheaper to show American blockbusters than Canadian indie films.
I myself am guilty of watching mostly American shows and movies. TV and Movies are not my major interest when it comes to entertainment. It's video games. Although I pay attention more when I know a developer is Canadian, I play what I think is good. Not like the industry has proven itself mature enough to create content with much meaning yet anyway.
Quebec is in a unique position in Canada. Their language is different from the States which gives them little in the way of competition. The United States is the largest exporter of culture in the world. I'm not saying that Quebec is strong by default. I do think that Quebec has a strong focus on culture and that Canada as a nation should move towards that, but I think that you are discreditting English Canadians for something that is hard to help.
Firestorm; Doesn't quebec have some sort of law preventing their language from evolving or changing too much, to prevent the culture from being overwhelmed?
Also I don't approve of the bloc quebecois. If they want my respect, they can run nationally instead of just in quebec like every other non-novelty party.
Also I don't approve of the bloc quebecois. If they want my respect, they can run nationally instead of just in quebec like every other non-novelty party.