Time for an election, Canada

[Glalie]

Bring on Michael Ignatieff already

 

[GoldDraconian]

To everyone that responded to my concerns about gay marriage being banned again, I recognize and understand the point being made about Harper re-opening the "issue" for a democratic vote... or whatever it was. In all honesty, it bothered me because it was something that should have stayed settled, and he needlessly brought it back up again. Overall I still hope that he and his minority government can continue to lead Canada well. They'll have less opposition this time, which will make things certainly more interesting.

Well, I don't believe it's been mentioned recently. Unless the government switches its terminology for everyone, I don't think it should be changed. I think heterosexuals and homosexuals should get the same words describing their unions and the same status, I just feel that "civil union" is a better term than "marriage". Given how unlikely that is to catch on, they should probably leave it be.

That said, support was not as overwhelming when it was instituted as it is now, so when it was fresh, I might have agreed with some sort of referendum. The outcome isn't something that bothers me, it was the process. If people are about 50/50 on an issue as controversial and significant as that, then just ramming it through feels wrong.

Although, I suppose that happens with all kinds of things that nobody notices... and given that well over 50% of Canadians support gay marriage these days (what is is, like 70+?), it would be pointless to revisit now.

Also agreeing with the general opinion on that horrible interview fiasco, that was a horrible thing for Harper say and frankly I'm surprised that all of Quebec didn't revolt against him (I know I would have!)

Which interview fiasco are you referring to? I can think of a couple things that might count as "interview fiascos", but none that make sense when inserted there. Could anyone fill me in?

Also, Vineon. Just so you know.

 

[Layell]

Lowest voter turnout in Canada's history, makes you question if people honestly care thast the next government would handle the economic crisis.

I'm shocked honestly that people just don't seem to care.

 

[Misty]

well haven't you had like 3 elections in 4 years?

 

[Layell]

Yeah we have, and this is because we've only managed to elect minority governments. Now we're stuck with one again, which means things may not happen very quickly.

(A minority government means that the largest party doesn't have over 50% of the government seats, they need other parties to help pass legislature)

Now this doesn't mean that if more people showed up there would be a majority, but our ridings would be better represented.

Yeah having so many elections would probably make less voters turn out, Ironically our last government was the longest lasting minority.

 

[Vineon]

I'm surprised that all of Quebec didn't revolt against him (I know I would have!)

Doesn’t help that he is far from a popular political party leader in the province. Probably the most hated French leader here since PET. I’m more pissed at CTV than I am at Harper… and I dislike Dion.

Firestorm; Doesn't quebec have some sort of law preventing their language from evolving or changing too much, to prevent the culture from being overwhelmed?

Also I don't approve of the bloc quebecois. If they want my respect, they can run nationally instead of just in quebec like every other non-novelty party.

You likely mean Bill 101, a serie of measures attempting to insure french remains the prohiminent language in the province. For example, it demands that all commercial signs be in French. They can be in many languages, but French has to be one of them. Another example being immigrants need to send their kids to French schools until college level. Québec is a 8 millions French province in a 330 millions english continent, without a few of those rules , Québec would likely look very differently today. In the 70s, most commercial signs in Montréal were in English, even though the majority of the population was French.

As for not approving of the Bloc Québécois, they do not seek your approval. They won’t run nationally considering they promote Québec independence. Wouldn’t it be silly to have candidates in ridings outside Québec? It does not seek to win the elections, which make some doubt their presence in Ottawa is even worth anything. My opinion is they are worth something, especially in a minority government will objectives concentrated on my province.

Vincent, I don't like English Canada being branded as wanting too much to be American. The fact of the matter is, Canada cannot compete with the United States when it comes to the Culture Industry. They can definitely do it in Quebec due to there being little competition from the US in regards to French programming, but I feel you're blaming the rest of Canada for something that is for the most part out of their hands.

It is not only Canada that struggles with supporting our local artists. Yes, we do so more due to our close proximity to the States, but every predominantly English speaking nation has trouble competing with the United States. US marketing is huge. HUGE. Canada cannot compete with that due to economies of Scale. They have 10x our population. For TV, our stations would much rather buy American shows and take advantage of the free publicity that Canadians have already been subjected to rather than shoot their own shows and market them. It's FAR less costlier to buy shows from the States.

As for movies, iirc, most of the theatres across the country are American-owned. Marketing-wise, the same applies here. It's much cheaper to show American blockbusters than Canadian indie films.

I myself am guilty of watching mostly American shows and movies. TV and Movies are not my major interest when it comes to entertainment. It's video games. Although I pay attention more when I know a developer is Canadian, I play what I think is good. Not like the industry has proven itself mature enough to create content with much meaning yet anyway.

Quebec is in a unique position in Canada. Their language is different from the States which gives them little in the way of competition. The United States is the largest exporter of culture in the world. I'm not saying that Quebec is strong by default. I do think that Quebec has a strong focus on culture and that Canada as a nation should move towards that, but I think that you are discreditting English Canadians for something that is hard to help.

I don’t exactly blame Canada for it and I’m not sure your comparison applies fully but in general it is right. I realize Canada is America’s neighour to the north but it could be like England for example, also english yet distinct. It is the same language and it is right next to it, I suppose it dooms them to be very similar. Or like Québec is from France, roughly the one thing they share is the language, products from France sell as much here as British products sell to Canada. France for Québec could be Canada’s America, but it isn’t. In Québec we do also get a lot of American programming, it’s translated (in Québec) if it makes a difference. Yet Québec shows still have their place. It would be much easier to just buy American series and translate them rather than make our own, but there’s a demand for it. No doubt Canada cannot compete with the US when it comes to costs. But if they could, would people actually tune in because it is a Canadian tv serie? What would set a Canadian tv serie apart from American serie? I am saying they are both part of the same culture, not that Canada doesn’t have one. As for movies, the same example applies, even if Canada could compete and make their own blockbusters, I’m not sure the movie being Canadian changes much to the viewer’s eye, it will sound and look like an American movie. It will not be the reason people will go see it.

Lowest voter turnout in Canada's history, makes you question if people honestly care thast the next government would handle the economic crisis.

I'm shocked honestly that people just don't seem to care.

of the many Canadian #smogon users I know, I believe something like one out of 4 voted.

:(

well haven't you had like 3 elections in 4 years?

I would expect 4 in 6 now.

Liberals will 'reinvent' themselves under a new leader (likely Ignatieff) and will capitalize on Harper having to deal with a degrading economy.

 

[Morm]

Vineon, having said that, would you classify the bloc quebecois as a novelty party like how the greens are (or at least used to be) with environmentalism, the first nations party is with giving MORE money to first nations, the marxist-lennonist party is with making the country fail outright (lol) or the rhinoceros party was with getting a rhino in as prime minister?

I guess to clarify more, I'd define novelty parties as parties without a full platform that may or may not even bother nationally representing their party. Do you think that's fully democractic and/or a waste of money and resources to allow that?

Makes you wonder what quebecois really care about when they are voting- a referendum that failed twice or a legitimate and funcitonal NATIONAL government. Any insight on that? I'll plead total ignorance on the motives of the Quebec voting populace since I've never been there and only can observe from the outside.

 

[Vineon]

Vineon, having said that, would you classify the bloc quebecois as a novelty party like how the greens are (or at least used to be) with environmentalism, the first nations party is with giving MORE money to first nations, the marxist-lennonist party is with making the country fail outright (lol) or the rhinoceros party was with getting a rhino in as prime minister?

None of these parties managed to have candidates elected ever (aside I believe 1 seat ever for the Greens which should count as a full-fledged party now anyway). The Bloc has 50 MPs and the balance of power. It means a lot in a minority governement.

They don't aim to govern, I think that's clear. They can't be national. Their actions will always be for the benefit of one province. Maybe that makes it a 'noverty party'. It is definitely something different, something like a grouping of independants, focused on their local issues. Perhaps they do not belong there, that is the opinion of many. But if you believe this, you should also believe all independant candidates do not belong. You could also say the NPD and Greens do not belong, because they never actually make gains from election to election.

It is definitely fully democratic, nobody forces anyone to vote for them, Quebec has the number of ridings it should have based on its population and its citizens decided they'd elect the Bloc. It is not any more a waste of money than electing anyone else. Should the Bloc not have been part of these elections we would have spent just as much for it. The Bloc MPs cost just as much as other MPs. There will always be a opposition parties, the Bloc is one, you cannot claim they are any more useless than the others.

Makes you wonder what quebecois really care about when they are voting- a referendum that failed twice or a legitimate and funcitonal NATIONAL government. Any insight on that? I'll plead total ignorance on the motives of the Quebec voting populace since I've never been there and only can observe from the outside.

Well the vote is divided, it explains why Harper is so strong but also why the separatists are over-represented in Quebec. All other parties in Quebec are pro-federalism. The Bloc has 2/3 of the Quebec seats, this does not mean they got 66% of the vote, far from it.

The referendums failed twice, the second however by the tiniest of margin (50.6% to 49.4%). Taking non french-Québécois out of the equation, 60% voted in favor of declaring independance. The reason I mention this is there are way more french-only ridings than ridings with english people in them, because they mostly live concentrated in Montreal, they still represent a sizeable portion of our population. That's also a reason the Bloc is over-represented.

Besides, people mainly voted Bloc these elections because no other party could do the job against Harper. Dion is hated, and the NPD isn't seen as a major party.

 

[Morm]

Thanks for the input, Vineon. I don't know much about politics and being Albertan, as you probably know, we mostly just have the hate out for Quebec and everything they are. Just wanted some insight before I lay the hate on you as well...kiddin on that last line. But yeah, that point about independant parties was a pretty good one. I'd guess I'd feel alot better about the bloc if they didn't come off as such a one trick pony.

Weirdly enough, if you held that same vote in Alberta (should quebec stay or go), we'd probably vote Quebec out of Canada. We truely are the Texas of Canada!


At least we can all still enjoy the CBC's clearly left leaning views. I remember when they said last night "well, the one bright spot of this election is that the liberals did <insert something menial that the liberals did here since I don't recall exactly what it was>". Gotta love how Rick fucking Mercer is now a political analyst...

 

[Vineon]

Weirdly enough, if you held that same vote in Alberta (should quebec stay or go), we'd probably vote Quebec out of Canada. We truely are the Texas of Canada!


At least we can all still enjoy the CBC's clearly left leaning views. I remember when they said last night "well, the one bright spot of this election is that the liberals did <insert something menial that the liberals did here since I don't recall exactly what it was>". Gotta love how Rick fucking Mercer is now a political analyst...

All fine and I don't even doubt Albertans would vote to "kick Québec out". It is the motto of this english canadian website, http://canadadivided.com/ , which I post in occasionally. Although I mostly post there to defend Québec against some of their outrageously claims.

I love Canada and Canadians, although to be honest, perhaps Alberta a tad less =D. I would love Canada even more as my favorite neighbouring country and great trade partner!

 

[Morm]

hehe, I honestly think it's like two different countries at times. Just look how they vote...

If Alberta leaves though, who will pay for Newfoundlands liberal handouts :(

edit: Just saw that website. I have some things to discuss with you about quebec seperation, but I'll PM it so I don't hijack the thread more than I already have.

 

[Firestorm]

I disapprove of the Bloc Quebecois mostly because it is quite obviously a party with interest in one specific region and due to their power, Quebec has a lot more say in politics than any other province would. If we took it to an extreme, every province would have its own party vying for the interests of the one province. I did like Gilles Duceppe in the debate though. He and May seemed much more down to earth than Layton and Harper. Dion was just sort of... there. I especially liked Duceppe's "I know I will not be Prime Minister. 3 of the people here won't be Prime Minister either but they won't admit it."

I don’t exactly blame Canada for it and I’m not sure your comparison applies fully but in general it is right. I realize Canada is America’s neighour to the north but it could be like England for example, also english yet distinct. It is the same language and it is right next to it, I suppose it dooms them to be very similar. Or like Québec is from France, roughly the one thing they share is the language, products from France sell as much here as British products sell to Canada. France for Québec could be Canada’s America, but it isn’t. In Québec we do also get a lot of American programming, it’s translated (in Québec) if it makes a difference. Yet Québec shows still have their place. It would be much easier to just buy American series and translate them rather than make our own, but there’s a demand for it. No doubt Canada cannot compete with the US when it comes to costs. But if they could, would people actually tune in because it is a Canadian tv serie? What would set a Canadian tv serie apart from American serie? I am saying they are both part of the same culture, not that Canada doesn’t have one. As for movies, the same example applies, even if Canada could compete and make their own blockbusters, I’m not sure the movie being Canadian changes much to the viewer’s eye, it will sound and look like an American movie. It will not be the reason people will go see it.

I see where you're coming from as well. Canada and America are so intertwined that our culture has for the most part been eclipsed by the Americans'. I think Canada now defines itself more by its values rather than by any tradition or distinct media form. Our musicians inevitably get bought by Americans so they can grow. Our movies and tv shows are completely eclipsed by the American marketing machine. I think you're right that the Quebecois have been very vigilant in keeping their culture alive. It's something English Canada has been unable to do maybe due to different priorities. It's a shame. I make it no secret that I really love Canada and like to differentiate myself from American. I hated going to London about 7 years ago and having people comment on my "American" accent. No. It's a Canadian accent, assholes!