Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

[Cynthia]

Heatran's ability is much better than Ho-oh's. Immunity to an attack type as well as a chance for a free boost as opposed to...Pressure.

Heatran's typing is much better than Ho-Oh's in general. Ho-Oh obviously takes fighting and ground attacks better, but doesn't have ghost, dark, psychic, flying, normal, ice, or dragon resistances or poison immunity. Ho-Oh's also electric weak, and being neutral to rock is immensely better than being 4x weak to it.

 

[umbarsc]

He makes a comment comparing one "broken" aspect of Ho-oh to an OU Pokemon, and to counter that you compare them on the whole?

Surely you can see what is wrong with that.

 

[Tingaling]

Heatran's ability is much better than Ho-oh's. Immunity to an attack type as well as a chance for a free boost as opposed to...Pressure.

Heatran's typing is much better than Ho-Oh's in general. Ho-Oh obviously takes fighting and ground attacks better, but doesn't have ghost, dark, psychic, flying, normal, ice, or dragon resistances or poison immunity. Ho-Oh's also electric weak, and being neutral to rock is immensely better than being 4x weak to it.

How is pressure bad? Ho-oh has amazing defensive stats, and I could easily see a subroost stall set (like zappy and articuno!) BTW, EQ immunity is very handy, and not being revenged by Duggy helps too. And the best fire move in the game? Heatran can't match that. And Ho-oh has EQ, so it can OHKO tran easily.

 

[Cynthia]

Pressure isn't bad, but in most situations Flash Fire is just more useful.

I mentioned that Ho-Oh takes EQ's better than Heatran (lol duh)

My point is that Heatran wouldn't be completely outclassed by Ho-Oh. Also Dugtrio can rarely revenge Heatran since Heatran runs Scarf and Dugtrio doesn't.

 

[Tingaling]

Pressure isn't bad, but in most situations Flash Fire is just more useful.

I mentioned that Ho-Oh takes EQ's better than Heatran (lol duh)

My point is that Heatran wouldn't be completely outclassed by Ho-Oh. Also Dugtrio can rarely revenge Heatran since Heatran runs Scarf and Dugtrio doesn't.

Sorry about missing the EQ immunity. And btw, Trio does run scarf... or at least mine does (and owns all heatran and infernape) Heatran does have better resistances though, but I prefer roost over those. SR does rape it though, which is probably the main factor for OU status.

 

[Bogmire]

Pressure isn't bad, but in most situations Flash Fire is just more useful.

I mentioned that Ho-Oh takes EQ's better than Heatran (lol duh)

My point is that Heatran wouldn't be completely outclassed by Ho-Oh. Also Dugtrio can rarely revenge Heatran since Heatran runs Scarf and Dugtrio doesn't.

scarf dugtrio isn't uncommon in today's metagame.

 

[Darkmalice]

Pressure isn't bad, but in most situations Flash Fire is just more useful.

I mentioned that Ho-Oh takes EQ's better than Heatran (lol duh)

My point is that Heatran wouldn't be completely outclassed by Ho-Oh. Also Dugtrio can rarely revenge Heatran since Heatran runs Scarf and Dugtrio doesn't.

Pressure is usually more useful to Ho-oh becaue Ho-oh can already take a fire hit well and itcan Sub Roost well, especially with speed baton passed to it. However, a boosted SF is very useful.
Heatran is definitely better with Flash Fire.

It's already been stated, but Scarftrio can revenge kill Heatran. Though Scarftrio has little use otherwise due to pathetic attack (and hes Pursuit bait - he can't OHKO Weavile or Tar without CB).

 

[Jetx]

How is it significant that Heatran is beaten by ScarfTrio? Ho-oh shouldn't be compared to Heatran, and it could never take its place (aside from maybe the role of "something to switch into Fire Blasts"). Heatran switches in on a load of threats thanks to all its resistances and neutrality to SR, and it revenge kills. Ho-oh has too few resistances, too weak a move (Fire Blast > Sacred Fire as far as revenge killing goes) and requires too much support to just be some Scarf revenge killer.

Judging from the comments against its testing I've seen here, it's more or less common knowledge that its best role is one as a tank, and a Scarf set would be pure novelty when Heatran generally works so much better. They're not really two pokémon you can compare. The only reason Heatran's usage would go down would be because Ho-oh is yet another thing that walls it (and let's face it, Gyarados, Swampert, Blissey, etc. can do that too), but that hasn't bothered it too much in the past. It doesn't outclass Heatran as a Fire type because its typing and roles are too different.

 

[Tingaling]

How is it significant that Heatran is beaten by ScarfTrio?

Extremely. How effective is a revenge killer when it is trapped and OHKO'd by a pokemon? Especially with the rise in scarftrios lately

Ho-oh shouldn't be compared to Heatran, and it could never take its place (aside from maybe the role of "something to switch into Fire Blasts"). Heatran switches in on a load of threats thanks to all its resistances and neutrality to SR, and it revenge kills. Ho-oh has too few resistances

That's true, Heatran does have a boatload of resistances. But you know what has 106/90/154 defenses AND roost? Ho-oh. It would live for so long in the current metagame. So a very good special wall (like heatran) and a good attacker. They are similar, except Ho-oh attacks physical and can burn almost 50% of the time (95% accuracy)

Ho-oh has too few resistances, too weak a move (Fire Blast > Sacred Fire as far as revenge killing goes) and requires too much support to just be some Scarf revenge killer.

Too weak a move? How is hitting 19/20 vs. 17/20? Or the 50% burn rate! Not to mention the higher base speed.

Judging from the comments against its testing I've seen here, it's more or less common knowledge that its best role is one as a tank, and a Scarf set would be pure novelty when Heatran generally works so much better. They're not really two pokémon you can compare. The only reason Heatran's usage would go down would be because Ho-oh is yet another thing that walls it (and let's face it, Gyarados, Swampert, Blissey, etc. can do that too), but that hasn't bothered it too much in the past. It doesn't outclass Heatran as a Fire type because its typing and roles are too different.

I completely disagree with this entire statement. Scarf Ho-oh is in the fucking first analysis, and so many other weaker pokemon run scarf. Ho-oh and tran can both be used as walls, tanks and attackers, so they are not very unlike each other. I think it would overcentralize the metagame.

 

[umbarsc]

Hey here's the key word: "think". You don't know it will, you think it will. Every person in this thread has been made asses of with all these assumptions thrown around. To quote myself:

The logic that "we shouldn't test X because it will unbalance the metagame" makes absolutely no sense to me. You can accurately predict the future? I'd like to know who wins the World Series and who wins the presidential election.

If you're talking about a Pokemon's influence in a metagame before it's even tested, it's purely speculation. If we test Ho-oh, it may dominate, it may not, but that type of argument shouldn't hold any weight in deciding whether or not to test it.

There are only two reasons not to test a Pokemon:

- Time restrictions
- What other sites/players will think

Smogon really shouldn't be concerned with the latter, and I think there is plausible enough evidence to show that testing Ho-oh for a month *might* not be a giant waste of time, so I don't see why not. We have a Suspect Test Ladder for a reason!

 

[Bogmire]

Heatran's HP is 39 lower than Ho-Oh's.

Heatran's base hp is 91. Ho-Oh's is 106. I don't know how you got a difference of 39.

 

[blasphemy1]

Well if a pokemon like Magmortar can get usage, for its ability to Cross Chop Blissey and Thunderbolt bulky waters, don't ya think Ho-oh would be on everyone's teams?

I mean, SF in itself can beat Blissey, althought it doesn't even need that. It has over 100 HP Subs, unlike Zapdos, meaning SubRoosting would be more efficient, especially since Blissey's Ice Beam doesn't break its Substitute, and Ho-oh actually has a way of dealing with Tyranitar, a very common threat to SubRoost Zapdos. I know, I shouldn't be comparing an OU to an Uber to justify why it should stay in Ubers, but how many teams have you fought against a Zapdos? For me, it has been virtually everyone, and considering Ho-oh outclasses Zapdos in every department(with the exception of that SR weak), it would be too over-centralizing for our metagame.

Not only can Ho-oh SubRoost effectively, it can run CB sets, SubCM, tank, etc, etc. He has the options of Jirachi, Infernape, and Zapdos all in one pokemon.

Quite honestly I think the more worthwhile discussion would be Manaphy for OU, but that would be far too rational.

Either way I DO believe we should test this, just so we can move on to bigger things.

 

[Cynthia]

Scarftrio usage is significant, but hardly the dominant set. Only about 1/4 of Dugtrios carry Scarf. It's obviously not invalidating Heatran much, since Heatran's risen to #1 in usage.

 

[IcyMan28]

Well if a pokemon like Magmortar can get usage, for its ability to Cross Chop Blissey and Thunderbolt bulky waters, don't ya think Ho-oh would be on everyone's teams?

I mean, SF in itself can beat Blissey, althought it doesn't even need that. It has over 100 HP Subs, unlike Zapdos, meaning SubRoosting would be more efficient, especially since Blissey's Ice Beam doesn't break its Substitute, and Ho-oh actually has a way of dealing with Tyranitar, a very common threat to SubRoost Zapdos. I know, I shouldn't be comparing an OU to an Uber to justify why it should stay in Ubers, but how many teams have you fought against a Zapdos? For me, it has been virtually everyone, and considering Ho-oh outclasses Zapdos in every department(with the exception of that SR weak), it would be too over-centralizing for our metagame.

Not only can Ho-oh SubRoost effectively, it can run CB sets, SubCM, tank, etc, etc. He has the options of Jirachi, Infernape, and Zapdos all in one pokemon.

Quite honestly I think the more worthwhile discussion would be Manaphy for OU, but that would be far too rational.

Either way I DO believe we should test this, just so we can move on to bigger things.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ho-oh outclasses Zapdos at every corner. Even is Stealth Rock were the only thing Zapdos wins in, that is a huge advantage in today's metagame. But that's not all.

Defensively, Zapdos is left with only 2 weaknesses, both of which can be entirely removed for a turn. Ho-oh has unfortunate weaknesses to electric, water, and a crippling rock weakness. Also unlike Ho-oh, Zapdos is more effective as a phazer because the bulky waters fear its Thunderbolt (and Swampert fears the now common HP Grass). It has pressure, just like Ho-oh, and it has the option of inflicting status and attacking at the same time as well (Discharge vs. Sacred Fire). It's most used attack isn't so easily worn out of PP, since it has a max pp of 24 as opposed to 8.

Offensively, Zapdos can now offer Ho-oh some competition. While it is walled by Blissey, Zapdos now has the option of blasting things with its powerful Thunderbolt, complementing its coverage with the Fire-Grass combination of Heat Wave and HP Grass. Once again, Roost comes into play to remove the weaknesses, which is even more likely now because offensive Zapdos is fast, much more so than Ho-oh. While Ho-oh can easily get past Blissey with the physical set, it will struggle against the now omnipresent bulky waters, the likes of sp.def boosted Tyranitar (sand), and Rhyperior, who can destroy Ho-oh, even with a burn.

-Regarding your comment about Magmortar, yes it can take out Blissey with Cross Chop (which outdamages Ho-oh's Sacred Fire thanks to being super effective) and then hit bulky waters, but Ho-oh's sp.atk isn't nearly as high Magmortar's, so Thunderbolt is less effective. But just like Magmortar, speed issues will let Ho-oh down.

 

[Darkmalice]

Defensively, Zapdos is left with only 2 weaknesses, both of which can be entirely removed for a turn. Ho-oh has unfortunate weaknesses to electric, water, and a crippling rock weakness.

Agreed, but Ho-oh has higher SpcDef to take these hits, And Zapdos is weak to ice, which is very common.

Also unlike Ho-oh, Zapdos is more effective as a phazer because the bulky waters fear its Thunderbolt (and Swampert fears the now common HP Grass). It has pressure, just like Ho-oh, and it has the option of inflicting status and attacking at the same time as well (Discharge vs. Sacred Fire). It's most used attack isn't so easily worn out of PP, since it has a max pp of 24 as opposed to 8.

Many swamperts don't have a water move, just Earthquake and Ice Beam/Avalanche, meaning Ho-oh > Zapdos. And Ho-oh handles Surf fine, not much worse than Zapdos handling Ice Beam.
Sacred Fire is more threatening than Discharge due to power and chance, and casting paralysis is easier than casting burn (more users of thunderwave and with more accuracy).

Offensively, Zapdos can now offer Ho-oh some competition. While it is walled by Blissey, Zapdos now has the option of blasting things with its powerful Thunderbolt, complementing its coverage with the Fire-Grass combination of Heat Wave and HP Grass. Once again, Roost comes into play to remove the weaknesses, which is even more likely now because offensive Zapdos is fast, much more so than Ho-oh. While Ho-oh can easily get past Blissey with the physical set, it will struggle against the now omnipresent bulky waters, the likes of sp.def boosted Tyranitar (sand), and Rhyperior, who can destroy Ho-oh, even with a burn.

Ho-oh can also use Fire, Electric and Grass moves, just with STAB on fire instead. And Rhyperior still destroys Zapdos.

-Regarding your comment about Magmortar, yes it can take out Blissey with Cross Chop (which outdamages Ho-oh's Sacred Fire thanks to being super effective) and then hit bulky waters, but Ho-oh's sp.atk isn't nearly as high Magmortar's, so Thunderbolt is less effective. But just like Magmortar, speed issues will let Ho-oh down.

90 speed isn't bad, it ties with Lucario and is faster than Heracross and Heatran. Scarf Ho-oh is dam fast. And many Zapdos don't run max speed and even have 0 speed (defensive variations). Ho-oh will probably end up the same, with unpredictable speed spreads, making initial prediction and countering it harder. And Zapdos is easier to wall than Ho-oh, Zapdos will never ever beat Blissey without Baton Pass.

 

[umbarsc]

Many swamperts don't have a water move, just Earthquake and Ice Beam/Avalanche, meaning Ho-oh > Zapdos. And Ho-oh handles Surf fine, not much worse than Zapdos handling Ice Beam.

Why are you debating about Ho-oh's effect in the current metagame? Obviously, if Ho-oh were introduced, more Swampert would start to carry a Rock or Water attack, and that's even if this statement were true, which I disagree with (the most common Swampert I've seen it RestTalk/Curse/Waterfall, which is a perfectly fine Ho-oh counter, asuming it lacks HP Grass).

 

[IcyMan28]

Agreed, but Ho-oh has higher SpcDef to take these hits, And Zapdos is weak to ice, which is very common.

-I would go so far as to say that Ho-oh's Rock weakness is equally as crippling as Zapdos' Ice. Ice attacks can be seen from a while away, but they are most commonly found on the water types that don't like coming in to Zapdos. Rock is omnipresent in the form of Stealth Rock, and so many top physical sweepers have access to Stone Edge.


Many swamperts don't have a water move, just Earthquake and Ice Beam/Avalanche, meaning Ho-oh > Zapdos. And Ho-oh handles Surf fine, not much worse than Zapdos handling Ice Beam.
Sacred Fire is more threatening than Discharge due to power and chance, and casting paralysis is easier than casting burn (more users of thunderwave and with more accuracy).

-Hydro Pump? Surf? Zapdos Roosts and takes a neutral, UnSTAB Ice Beam. Ho-oh roosts and takes a SE STAB Hydro Pump (or Surf), which will hurt regardless. Also, Zapdos just HP Grass Pert to its grave, while HP Grass Ho-oh struggles against bulky waters even more than usual.
-Sacred Fire is not as effective against sp.sweepers as paralysis, because no sweeper wants to be paralyzed, but only physical sweepers care about a burn.


Ho-oh can also use Fire, Electric and Grass moves, just with STAB on fire instead. And Rhyperior still destroys Zapdos.

-The difference is, Ho-oh's fire STAB has 8 PP, and electric + grass is not ideal for Ho-oh in terms of hitting what normally handles it. Tyranitar, Heatran, etc walk all over that set, so EQ > Grass for Ho-oh.
-A burned Rhyperior still destroys a Roosting Ho-oh with Stone Edge, but sweeping Zapdos crushes Rhyperior with HP Grass. Rhyperior does not destroy Zapdos without significant risk to itself.


90 speed isn't bad, it ties with Lucario and is faster than Heracross and Heatran. Scarf Ho-oh is dam fast. And many Zapdos don't run max speed and even have 0 speed (defensive variations). Ho-oh will probably end up the same, with unpredictable speed spreads, making initial prediction and countering it harder. And Zapdos is easier to wall than Ho-oh, Zapdos will never ever beat Blissey without Baton Pass.

-Even defensive Zapdos usually have 36 speed to outrun Tyranitar, etc. Offensive versions now hit at least 308, which outruns quite a bit. As unpredictable as the spreads may be, capping at 306 isn't all that attractive; just look at Porygon-Z.
-Zapdos will never beat Blissey without Baton Pass, but I would like to see Ho-oh take on the likes of Suicune or ResTalk Milotic. Blissey trumps all sp.sweepers, so that isn't necessarily a hit to Zapdos' effectiveness.

 

[Darkmalice]

The only common physical sweeper who is likely to have Stone Edge is Tar. Salamance doesnt have it on his typical moveset, Lucario almost never has it and Rhyperior is BL. Ice is more common (though SR is unquestionably common).

Ho-oh takes less than 50% from typical Swampert's Surf. HP Grass may be chosen for surprise for Rhyperior and Swapmert, and yes, it may be inferior to Earthquake. But Zapdos struggles against Tyranitar, whom is scared off by Ho-oh's Earthquake and Heatran sucks against Ho-oh.

A roosting Zapdos is destroyed by Rhyperior's Earthquake. Ho-oh has at least severly hindered Rhyperior if it gets burned.

And it's impossible to compare Porygon-Z to Ho-oh, when there defense's, typing and movesets are so differently. Pory-Z isn't that common due to speed and bad defences. Ho-oh doesn't suffer the last problem. And blissey outrights walls Pory-Z. And yeh, Suicune and Milotic can beat Ho-oh assuming their healthy, but Blissey is more common than both and even with less than 50% hlth, still walls Zapdos. Want a spcsweeper to beat blissey, use trick which so many spcsweepers have - gengar, azelf, starmie, rotom and more, zapdos not included.

And if Sacred Fire pp is a problem, Ho-oh could have Flamethrower for surprise with a special sweeper set. it could even be a sunny day pokemon with solarbeam, which is so much better than Zapdos' HP Grass. it can be screwed by sandstorm, but that's not as common as it used to be (and earthquake can still be used for tyranitar). any rain dancer swapping in on Ho-oh's sun risks lots of damage from solarbeam (including Kingdra).

 

[cim]

The logic that "we shouldn't test X because it will unbalance the metagame" makes absolutely no sense to me. You can accurately predict the future? I'd like to know who wins the World Series and who wins the presidential election.

I agree with this. In some cases, though, the future is predicable to anyone (for example, the sky will be blue when I wake up tomorrow). The debate is at what level of uncertainty do we place the bar? If 99 out of 100 think it will be Uber in 5 days, do we test? 90? 50? I'm in favor of a low barrier for things we've never tested, regardless as to whether or not the OP that proposes the test is making sound arguments all the time (he's been a bit off with a few of them admittedly).

 

[Jetx]

The only common physical sweeper who is likely to have Stone Edge is Tar. Salamance doesnt have it on his typical moveset, Lucario almost never has it and Rhyperior is BL. Ice is more common (though SR is unquestionably common).

Only Tyranitar? This is the 6th most commonly move in the metagame we're talking about here. In OU alone, I've seen Stone Edges coming off Aerodactyl, Breloom (admittedly never going to try its luck), Dugtrio, Gyarados, Heracross, Lucario, Machamp (also not so good without Scarf), Mamoswine and Swampert. Ho-oh needs speed EVs to beat a lot of those, though most of them are risky to switch in.
Besides, if Ho-oh really was that dangerous/common, things would start using Stone Edge more often, just as Vaporeons often run HP Electric for Gyarados. Things adapt.

Ho-oh takes less than 50% from typical Swampert's Surf. HP Grass may be chosen for surprise for Rhyperior and Swapmert, and yes, it may be inferior to Earthquake. But Zapdos struggles against Tyranitar, whom is scared off by Ho-oh's Earthquake and Heatran sucks against Ho-oh.

Swampert can learn Stone Edge and Roar (and when you consider how much Ho-oh takes from SR, this is putting it in a lot of danger), the latter being very common. Tyaranitar doesn't switch out in fear of Earthquake, which doesn't OHKO, but Ho-oh is going to have to be pretty crazy to stay in on Tyranitar.

A roosting Zapdos is destroyed by Rhyperior's Earthquake. Ho-oh has at least severly hindered Rhyperior if it gets burned.

I don't think anybody would switch Zapdos into Rhyperior in the first place, let alone try to pull off a Roost. As for Ho-oh, it would be very unlikely to burn a Rhyperior; Rhyperiors would generally switch in on predicted Roosts and Thunderbolts anyway.

And it's impossible to compare Porygon-Z to Ho-oh, when there defense's, typing and movesets are so differently. Pory-Z isn't that common due to speed and bad defences. Ho-oh doesn't suffer the last problem. And blissey outrights walls Pory-Z. And yeh, Suicune and Milotic can beat Ho-oh assuming their healthy, but Blissey is more common than both and even with less than 50% hlth, still walls Zapdos. Want a spcsweeper to beat blissey, use trick which so many spcsweepers have - gengar, azelf, starmie, rotom and more, zapdos not included.

That wasn't what he said. He merely compared their speed stats, not what they do. Besides, if people wanted something like Blissey that could also wall Ho-oh, they could always use Snorlax. It doesn't matter that Blissey is common, because people could easily just start using things that could wall Ho-oh.

And if Sacred Fire pp is a problem, Ho-oh could have Flamethrower for surprise with a special sweeper set. it could even be a sunny day pokemon with solarbeam, which is so much better than Zapdos' HP Grass. it can be screwed by sandstorm, but that's not as common as it used to be (and earthquake can still be used for tyranitar). any rain dancer swapping in on Ho-oh's sun risks lots of damage from solarbeam (including Kingdra).

From personal experience, I'm seeing even more Tyranitars nowadays if anything. Its Pursuits are important for the likes of Azelf, Rotom, Blissey, etc.
Sunny Day outside of Ubers (and sometimes even In Ubers) is really poor, and Ho-oh won't change that. Sure, it would be a beast under Sunny Day, but it wouldn't get rid of any of Sunny Day's current flaws. What would the proposed set be? Sunny Day / Sacred Fire / Solarbeam / Roost?
I don't think anybody would run Flamethrower on Ho-oh unless they were doing a SubRoost set on a stall team.

I agree with this. In some cases, though, the future is predicable to anyone (for example, the sky will be blue when I wake up tomorrow). The debate is at what level of uncertainty do we place the bar? If 99 out of 100 think it will be Uber in 5 days, do we test? 90? 50? I'm in favor of a low barrier for things we've never tested, regardless as to whether or not the OP that proposes the test is making sound arguments all the time (he's been a bit off with a few of them admittedly).

We could make a poll and see what people think?
I don't think the thread alone is a good indication, as here it seems 50/50.

 

[blasphemy1]

Tyranitar would never want to switch into Ho-oh. Adamant Ho-oh's Sacred Fire does 20-24% to 252 HP / neutral natured Tyranitar, without Choice Band. The same Ho-oh's Earthquake would deal 55-64%. Now to me, the 50% chance of burn itself would deter a switchin, but being 2HKOed by a non boosted Earthquake would as well. CB Sacred Fire deals 30-36%, combine that with a possible burn and/or Stealth Rock, and your physical force is incredibly crippled. CB Earthquake still 2HKOs.

CB Earthquake deals 43-50% to 168 HP / 120 Def neutral natured Snorlax, so I don't really see where people are getting off with Snorlax as a counter. You are saying Ho-oh won't be "Uber" because of the Stealth Rock weakness, so I am saying Stealth Rock is set up and Snorlax takes atleast 55.5% from switching in, most likely a 2HKO.

Who honestly uses Rhyperior?

Anyways, who says Ho-oh has to stay in on Rhyperior?!?! There is switching/prediction in this game for a reason. You now have a severly crippled physical tank, who must rely on Resttalk to beat my physical sweeper. I can now safely switch in my Skarmory, set up Spikes, etc, allowing me to beat you later. Or, maybe I send in Bronzong, and set up Stealth Rock. Ho-oh just gives you soo many more options with Sacred Fire.

BTW, I noticed the discussion of Ho-oh's STAB move having low PP. The most common Pressure pokemon get destroyed by Sacred Fire! Just about the only safe switch in is Heatran on the initial SF, which could allow Ho-oh to set up a sub and EQ you.

This is all theorymon, but I would to test this to show how outrageous these claims really are.

 

[umbarsc]

The "you can just switch" argument, even if it's true (which it isn't, in this case), has no validity. Why? Because then the counter has already done its job. How is Ho-oh uber if I can force it out with Rhyperior every time? And if you switch out, you still have to face the prospect of STAB Rock/Ground off of 140 Base Attack, giving me the momentum of the match and forcing you to go on the defensive.

Also, that argument simply doesn't work for Ho-oh because of that 4x Stealth Rocks weakness. Unless you Roost while I force you out, you'll be dead or at 1 HP. If you do Roost, you've given Rhyperior a free switch and have accomplished nothing.

 

[scorchedsky]

How is Ho-oh uber if I can force it out with Rhyperior every time?

Well that in itself is a pretty silly argument. "How is Darkrai Uber if I can force it out with Primeape every time?" Just because a Ho-oh counter is BL doesn't mean that Ho-oh can't be uber, and that's a mindset that we really all have to adopt. Whether or not there's a specific counter or not is really a valid criterion for testing what tier something should be placed in.

 

[umbarsc]

Perhaps we need to get over the mindset that "a Pokemon without counters is uber" in the first place!

Also, the analogy does not work. Scarf Primeape (and only Scarf Primeape!) can come in on predicted Nasty Plots and Dark Pulses, but it's still vulnerable to Focus Blast and Substitute. Rhyperior walls everything on what would be the standard Ho-oh (Thunderbolt/Sacred Fire/Roost/Earthquake from the looks of things) and can recover with Rest.

I understand where you're coming from, but in my eyes it's a legitimate argument if it's backed up by a solid argument in the first place. The arguments for Ho-oh being a suspect have already been stated, so this isn't the foundation for an argument, just a counterargument to "it can just switch out of its counters."

 

[Darkmalice]

The "you can just switch" argument, even if it's true (which it isn't, in this case), has no validity. Why? Because then the counter has already done its job. How is Ho-oh uber if I can force it out with Rhyperior every time? And if you switch out, you still have to face the prospect of STAB Rock/Ground off of 140 Base Attack, giving me the momentum of the match and forcing you to go on the defensive.

Also, that argument simply doesn't work for Ho-oh because of that 4x Stealth Rocks weakness. Unless you Roost while I force you out, you'll be dead or at 1 HP. If you do Roost, you've given Rhyperior a free switch and have accomplished nothing.

Ho-oh roosts off the SR damage in 1 turn as the opponent swaps out, effectively removing the damage. even rhyperior can't heal that 6.25% without rest. i agree that rhyperior is a counter, but a burnt rhyperior is severly crippled and can be set up bait for skarm. Skarm can easily Roost off an attack from a burnt Rhyperior or set up spikes.
This is a scenario case, but its the roost part that makes Ho-oh healthy despite the SR damage.