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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion
- Thread starter darkie
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Stopping the top 5 as presented requires one to resist or be neutral to:
Rock
Fire
Fighting
Ghost
Ground
Electric
Dark
This is known in typecasting terms to be, quote, "impossible."
Water/Bug stops Revenankh cold and puts a damped on the tertiary threats of Scizor and Syclant. It creates a problem switchin situation for the rock types, and Zapdos simply doesn't care because it runs over most water types by definition.
So I suppose mostly its just there to stop Revenankh. This might be a fools errand because in my head I'm assuming something like Haze to stop it's Bulk Up spree, but whatever.
I'm just sort of in a rut because Water/Ground is the most practical generally. It also comes in 4 flavors already. Quagsire series part Five.
Water/Electric doesn't offer much to be. Lanturn works well with it almost entirely because of Volt Absorb. Metal Sound Zapdos isn't even going to think twice about staying in.
Water/Rock also has Rev problems and is a Relicanth/Kabutops/Omastar retread.
McBlaarg.
Pure Water seems alright, but uh: how do we get something that can match Suicune? Perhaps I need to go on the server and try it first, but a new Rain Dance Suicune would probably send everything but Zapdos a wake-up call.
Water/Flying:
Rock - Weak
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Resist
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Immune
Electric - Weak
Dark - Neutral
Water/Fire
Rock - Weak
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Weak
Electric - Weak
Dark - Neutral
Water/Ground
Rock - Resist
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Neutral
Electric - Immune
Dark - Neutral
Water/Ghost
Rock - Neutral
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Immune
Ghost - Weak
Ground - Neutral
Electric - Neutral
Dark - Weak
Water/Electric w/ Volt Absorb
Rock - Neutral
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Weak
Electric - Immune
Dark - Neutral
Water/Electric w/o Volt Absorb
Rock - Neutral
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Weak
Electric - Neutral
Dark - Neutral
So with Flying you get 2 weaks and while the only one better then that are Electric and Ground. The SR weak hurts but the way to counter all but 1 of the top 10 is damn good (assuming it's physical because if special it's stopped by Blissey).
EDIT: Forgot Dragon.
Rock - Neutral
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Neutral
Electric - Neutral
Dark - Neutral
Dragon doesn't look that promising defensively.
Water/Fighting
Rock - Resist
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Neutral
Electric - Weak
Dark - Resist
also:
Ice - Resist
Bug - Resist
Steel - Resist
Rock - Resist
Fire - Resist
Fighting - Neutral
Ghost - Neutral
Ground - Neutral
Electric - Weak
Dark - Resist
also:
Ice - Resist
Bug - Resist
Steel - Resist
- Stratagem
- Revenankh
- Fidgit
- Tyranitar
- Zapdos
- Syclant
- Blissey
- Heatran
- Scizor
- Pyroak
god water bug is a bad idea imo. sr weak isnt worth it for fight resist especially since you have no se stab vs revenankh. that already tells us we need to tool our stats o it can actually threaten rev so as not to get outstalled by the standard set. taunt could be interesting but it doesn't really touch the rest of the offensively geared top 10. bp scizor wont hurt it but it will be happy uturning in it's face
what does it have that water fight doesnt? fly weak but keeps it's fire neatral, and has a rock resist instead of weakness. think of the top two here =\.
what does it have that water fight doesnt? fly weak but keeps it's fire neatral, and has a rock resist instead of weakness. think of the top two here =\.
Grass people... I'm paranoid about Grass moves. :(
I don't care about Electric when only Zapdos uses Electric moves from the Top 10. As much as I don't care about Dark moves when only Tyranitar uses them from the Top 10.
The types important to not be weak to, in my opinion, are Ice, Fire, Ground, Grass, Rock, Fighting (in that order). The more you resist of these types, the better.
Rock weakness is out of the question in my view, so Bug is out.
I don't like Dragon much... too many of the above moves would hit for neutral (only Ice and Fire wouldn't... and mono-Water already does this).
Fighting is okay I guess... only weak to Grass and resists Ice, Fire and Rock.
Ghost? Hmm... weak to Grass, resists Ice and Fire and immune to Fighting. Not too bad.
Grass? Would only resist Grass and Ground in that case. Not too good.
Fire? Weak to Ground and Rock? No thanks.
Ground? Double weak to Grass, but only resists Rock and Fire.
I'll decide later.
I don't care about Electric when only Zapdos uses Electric moves from the Top 10. As much as I don't care about Dark moves when only Tyranitar uses them from the Top 10.
The types important to not be weak to, in my opinion, are Ice, Fire, Ground, Grass, Rock, Fighting (in that order). The more you resist of these types, the better.
Rock weakness is out of the question in my view, so Bug is out.
I don't like Dragon much... too many of the above moves would hit for neutral (only Ice and Fire wouldn't... and mono-Water already does this).
Fighting is okay I guess... only weak to Grass and resists Ice, Fire and Rock.
Ghost? Hmm... weak to Grass, resists Ice and Fire and immune to Fighting. Not too bad.
Grass? Would only resist Grass and Ground in that case. Not too good.
Fire? Weak to Ground and Rock? No thanks.
Ground? Double weak to Grass, but only resists Rock and Fire.
I'll decide later.
Crossposted from the first discussion thread.
Water/Fighting is pretty amazing for countering much of the top ten.
Strategem- Sets not packing Giga Drain are walled cold, and both STABs are SE against it.
Revenankh- Once again, neutral typing from Water allows this Pokemon to potentially do well against Revenankh.
Fidget- No resistances to mention, but STAB Water puts the hurt on it.
Tyranitar- No weaknesses from the standard Tyranitar's set, and STAB Fighting and STAB Water both threaten Tyranitar immensely. Dark and Rock resistances also help, though random Thunderbolts from Boah variants can hurt.
Zapdos- Ouch. STAB Thunderbolt can be an issue. One major counter to this typing.
Syclant- Owned. Water/Fighting resists both Bug and Ice, and the rest of Syclant's coverage is neutral. Neutral coverage means that this Pokemon may require secondary coverage attacks to hurt Syclant, but it's not very bulky, meaning even neutral STAB can hurt.
Blissey- Fighting STAB always helps to beat Blissey.
Heatran- Resists Fire, which helps a lot. Heatran is weak to both STABs, which makes this Pokemon a good counter to Heatran.
Scizor- Resists Bullet Punch and X-Scissor, and is neutral to Brick Break. Pretty much the best paper counter to Scizor ever.
Pyroak- The other problem for this typing. Grass is SE on this typing, so the Pokemon will need some other coverage to beat it.
Water/Fighting is pretty much the best typing that exists for beating the main threats of the metagame, and while it does exist in Pokemon (Poliwrath), a better movepool and stat spread could make this a winner.
So yeah. Fighting-type will set it apart from other bulky waters, as well as provide an incredible check to the majority of the metagame. It's just gotta outclass Poliwrath, for the most part.
Water/Fighting is pretty amazing for countering much of the top ten.
Strategem- Sets not packing Giga Drain are walled cold, and both STABs are SE against it.
Revenankh- Once again, neutral typing from Water allows this Pokemon to potentially do well against Revenankh.
Fidget- No resistances to mention, but STAB Water puts the hurt on it.
Tyranitar- No weaknesses from the standard Tyranitar's set, and STAB Fighting and STAB Water both threaten Tyranitar immensely. Dark and Rock resistances also help, though random Thunderbolts from Boah variants can hurt.
Zapdos- Ouch. STAB Thunderbolt can be an issue. One major counter to this typing.
Syclant- Owned. Water/Fighting resists both Bug and Ice, and the rest of Syclant's coverage is neutral. Neutral coverage means that this Pokemon may require secondary coverage attacks to hurt Syclant, but it's not very bulky, meaning even neutral STAB can hurt.
Blissey- Fighting STAB always helps to beat Blissey.
Heatran- Resists Fire, which helps a lot. Heatran is weak to both STABs, which makes this Pokemon a good counter to Heatran.
Scizor- Resists Bullet Punch and X-Scissor, and is neutral to Brick Break. Pretty much the best paper counter to Scizor ever.
Pyroak- The other problem for this typing. Grass is SE on this typing, so the Pokemon will need some other coverage to beat it.
Water/Fighting is pretty much the best typing that exists for beating the main threats of the metagame, and while it does exist in Pokemon (Poliwrath), a better movepool and stat spread could make this a winner.
So yeah. Fighting-type will set it apart from other bulky waters, as well as provide an incredible check to the majority of the metagame. It's just gotta outclass Poliwrath, for the most part.
Adamant 252 CB ttar's stone edge does 44%-52% to a max hp/def impish forretress. You remember forretress, right? The one with 140 def who doesn't counter ttar because he doesn't resist stone edge and gets 2hko'd or even worse-- critted to death.
This is why if we want CAP6 to counter ttar, we should make it either ground, rock, or steel so that it resists the ridiculously powerful stone edge.
I'm going with fighting, because it's a great offensive type and it doesn't add any weaknesses to the top 10, unlike steel or ground. Also, it takes 6% from SR, which is surprisingly important when you're trying to make sure your scizor counter can take a couple of bullet punches.
This is why if we want CAP6 to counter ttar, we should make it either ground, rock, or steel so that it resists the ridiculously powerful stone edge.
I'm going with fighting, because it's a great offensive type and it doesn't add any weaknesses to the top 10, unlike steel or ground. Also, it takes 6% from SR, which is surprisingly important when you're trying to make sure your scizor counter can take a couple of bullet punches.
Seriously, vote Fighting. I am a massive fan of Poliwrath and we have the chance to make a better version of Poliwrath that isn't utterly crap offensively.
Fighting/Water resists both STABs of Heatran, Scizor, Tyranitar and Syclant. And is furthermore not weak to any of the common attacks carried by it. All of said pokemon will lose to a remotely bulky water/
It also resists Rock and fighting type means we can give this Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch to kill Strategem quite easily so its a great check to it. Blissey and Fidgit are laughed at by STAB Fighting and Water moves respectively.
It also walls the Waterfall / Ice Fang / Stone Edge Gyarados silly.
The only pokemon on that list not overly threatened by water/fighting are Revenankh, Zapdos and Pyroak and the latter two aren't switching in on STAB attacks with SR down easily anyway.
And oh yeah SR resist.
Dragon.... reason why?
To prevent the rebirth of Togekiss in the CaP metagame also because it scares off some of the OU viable pokemon threats.
To prevent the rebirth of Togekiss in the CaP metagame also because it scares off some of the OU viable pokemon threats.
I was down to three choices: Fire, Fighting, or Bug
Fire is weak to Ground and Rock
Bug is weak to Rock
Fighting is weak to Flying and Psychic
Fire got thrown out here because of the Ground AND Rock weak
Bug is weak to Rock
Fighting is resistant to Rock
Damn Stealth Rocks making my decision for me
Fighting means another flying weak CaP, but we just made Stratagem to semi-deal with Togekiss.
Fire is weak to Ground and Rock
Bug is weak to Rock
Fighting is weak to Flying and Psychic
Fire got thrown out here because of the Ground AND Rock weak
Bug is weak to Rock
Fighting is resistant to Rock
Damn Stealth Rocks making my decision for me
Fighting means another flying weak CaP, but we just made Stratagem to semi-deal with Togekiss.
This is what i was trying to mention in my post Doug elaborated on it alot more .... Water/Flying is gonna bring the Re-birth of Togekiss in the CaP metagame.
And no i wasn't voting.
A water/ghost type CAP pokemon would be interesting to see, not weak to SR,can take out Revenankh I'm guessing, Heatran, and Pyroak are covered somewhat though Pyroak might be a nuisance with its part grass typing. Weaknesses for this type would include: Ghost,Electric,Dark,Grass, only four weaknesses, that's not too bad.
Well, if it's going to be a decentralizer anyway, we could make it check-like. Able to switch into Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere or something on Togekiss, and threaten with a strong physical Ice attack. For Skymin, there's Ice Shard to consider.
I agree with the points, but it's not the end of the world to me.
(next time I'm really banking on an Electric or Steel type though)
Fighting is a good option though, same as Poliwrath and checks the top threats offensively well, I have no clue why people are complaining about that making it togekiss weak, Togekiss has been able to knock out most of the CAPs so far and it's still not top 10 in CAP server usage. If it becomes a problem you can carry a togekiss counter on your team? Togekiss won't become the Garchomp of the CAP server because there are things that solidly wall it. Plus the SR resist is amazingly nice to have.
Flying sounds nice on paper but really, SR weak cripples the typing. against multiple switchins and makes it unable to handle Tyranitar AND x4 weak to electric, which would make Zapdos even better.
Flying sounds nice on paper but really, SR weak cripples the typing. against multiple switchins and makes it unable to handle Tyranitar AND x4 weak to electric, which would make Zapdos even better.
Even though, I also am liking elec/water a lot, it is still weak to grass as well... again, learn your type chart.
Ok.. well while reading through this thread I changed my mind four times, /Fight, /Ghost, /Ground (Almost went to /Bug here) then back to /Fight.
The reason being that I think Tyranitar is the most urgent Pokemon to effectively check/counter. SS is rampant in CaP, and unlike say Revvy or Stratagem Tyranitar has no solid common counters. It is to variable and the only things that can take virtually all sets tend to be UU/BL or very low OU, because outside of countering Tar they are not that useful.
Also its a great STAB type, SE on Steel/Rock/Normal/Dark and Ice. This means that Tar will fall, Strata can't come in on any STAB attacks, Blissey dies (unless we make it special) and we have another attack against Heatran.
The main problem with it (as Doug rightly points out) is the flying weak. In normal OU Flying is quite a poor offensive type, but in CaP some Pokemon can viably use their Hidden Power slot with it, and things like BounceDDGyrados are not unheard of. That is quite a step. However we can correct this in future by making more Flying resistant Pokemon, that is part of the beauty of CaP.
Also to those who fear the grass weak:
Out of those three users of Grass moves in the top 10 (Stratagem: Giga Drain 55%, Zapdos: HP Grass 32%, Pyroak: Grass Knot 33%) only one both commonly uses the move and can do significantly more harm with Grass attacks than other moves.
That means out of the top 10 only one will really use a Grass weakness to its advantage against CaP 6. And even then only just over half of Stratagems carry Giga Drain.
IMO Tyranitar's STAb moves are more important than Grass. Fighting also helps with the ever prevalent SR.
Edit: /Ghost is my second fave type, but the lack of resists and Dark/Ghost weakness is not worth having a STAB move against Rev.
The reason being that I think Tyranitar is the most urgent Pokemon to effectively check/counter. SS is rampant in CaP, and unlike say Revvy or Stratagem Tyranitar has no solid common counters. It is to variable and the only things that can take virtually all sets tend to be UU/BL or very low OU, because outside of countering Tar they are not that useful.
Also its a great STAB type, SE on Steel/Rock/Normal/Dark and Ice. This means that Tar will fall, Strata can't come in on any STAB attacks, Blissey dies (unless we make it special) and we have another attack against Heatran.
The main problem with it (as Doug rightly points out) is the flying weak. In normal OU Flying is quite a poor offensive type, but in CaP some Pokemon can viably use their Hidden Power slot with it, and things like BounceDDGyrados are not unheard of. That is quite a step. However we can correct this in future by making more Flying resistant Pokemon, that is part of the beauty of CaP.
Exactly, Electric is LONG overdue. And I suppose Steel could be interesting.
Also to those who fear the grass weak:
Out of those three users of Grass moves in the top 10 (Stratagem: Giga Drain 55%, Zapdos: HP Grass 32%, Pyroak: Grass Knot 33%) only one both commonly uses the move and can do significantly more harm with Grass attacks than other moves.
That means out of the top 10 only one will really use a Grass weakness to its advantage against CaP 6. And even then only just over half of Stratagems carry Giga Drain.
IMO Tyranitar's STAb moves are more important than Grass. Fighting also helps with the ever prevalent SR.
Edit: /Ghost is my second fave type, but the lack of resists and Dark/Ghost weakness is not worth having a STAB move against Rev.
This. Really guys, lets bring some other Flying types into the metagame. That will decentralize it.
You have no idea. (Well, you do actually xD)
A lot of people sound like they want to support ghost, but are concerned about being dark weak, more specifically pursuit which makes it unsafe to switch out.
Ignoring the previously pointed out fact that is CaP6 was faster than the biggest pursuit user, Tar, it could threaten to KO against before pursuit went off, there are still plenty of ways to protect the pokemon.
When you know you are forcing a switch, substitue, reflect, and will-o-wisp all let you reduce the damage of physical pursuit and are still useful even if a different pokemon is switched in. These are also the major reasons why the Dark weak ghosts still in OU (the Rotom-As and Gengar) havent been completly phased out by Tar and Rev.
Alternitivly, giving it Baton pass or U-Turn could let either scout, if it was slower, or escape, if it was faster. Overall there are option and it isnt completly destroyed by Dark. After all the only Dark STAB use in CAP OU is Tar, which it threatens. Weavile is the only other one in Standard and if it actually managed to come back to OU in response to this poke, we know it still could be protected. Plus its rise would once again, encourage decentralization.
Ignoring the previously pointed out fact that is CaP6 was faster than the biggest pursuit user, Tar, it could threaten to KO against before pursuit went off, there are still plenty of ways to protect the pokemon.
When you know you are forcing a switch, substitue, reflect, and will-o-wisp all let you reduce the damage of physical pursuit and are still useful even if a different pokemon is switched in. These are also the major reasons why the Dark weak ghosts still in OU (the Rotom-As and Gengar) havent been completly phased out by Tar and Rev.
Alternitivly, giving it Baton pass or U-Turn could let either scout, if it was slower, or escape, if it was faster. Overall there are option and it isnt completly destroyed by Dark. After all the only Dark STAB use in CAP OU is Tar, which it threatens. Weavile is the only other one in Standard and if it actually managed to come back to OU in response to this poke, we know it still could be protected. Plus its rise would once again, encourage decentralization.
No, a check should be able to switch in quite often (even if not as often as a counter), and that SR weakness is a too big hole in my opinion. Especially when a lot of top-OU are walls that dont mind repeated switches
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