Which I guess means that it should be Allowed since it provides some useful coverage but it is hardly threatening.
The situation is probably quite similar for Seed Bomb but Wood Hammer is prob a different story. Will wait and see GT's damage calcs.
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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter darkie
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The situation is probably quite similar for Seed Bomb but Wood Hammer is prob a different story. Will wait and see GT's damage calcs.
Because my damage calc suffers from last post of a page, I have to move it here in order to have everyone see it.
What's your reasoning for its ban? It's not needed? We don't ban Attacking moves because they're not that useful, we ban them because they're overpowered or give them type coverage we don't want the CAP to have. Since you're saying that Thunderpunch is neither too much type coverage or too powerful, surely you have no reason to want it Unallowed.
Very handy GT thank you! Are you sure about the calcs for Tentacruel though? They seem quite high given that Grass is neutral on Water/Poison.
Given that Wood Hammer is a 2KO on several Bulky Waters, I would say it should definitely be Controversial. Seed Bomb is only a 3KO so should be Allowable IMO.
I'm positive about Tenta and Wood Hammer. To be clear, 204 HP evs give Tenta 352 HP and with no defense EVs it has 166 Def. I went back to check and they're the same numbers.
The reason I assume Bulk Up is because it is, if you look at the statistics, a Required move for fighting types. 100% of Fighting types get Bulk Up, even if none of the rest of the non-fighting line got it. Fighting type = Bulk Up in the game canon. Period. No exceptions.
So you're either saying "Required" moves are in fact optional, or that X-Act pretty much wasted his time creating a Required moves thread.
This thread seems to be slipping more and more into the absurd. Why did we even have a counters discussion, when it seems the only thing that accomplished was a launching pad to put in moves to take out every potential check?
How many water types get Bulk Up? If you want to use the canon/flavor arguement then go ahead, just know that because this is a competitive project, and isn't sponsored by Nintendo, we have ultimate jurisdiction on whether we choose to follow the canon or not. This is our project, not Nintendo's. If we say that it would be broken to give it Bulk Up, then we won't give it Bulk Up. We don't need justification. We can do whatever we want, most times we choose to stay within the canon to appeal to more people, or because it makes sense. However, if at any moment we as a community decide to deviate from the canon (which is what this whole project is doing), we can. I know this opens up a slippery slope of sorts, because then "We're doing whatever we want, we should make Garchomp 2.0 and fuck stuff up" comes up. However, we have another, more important limitation, and that is arriving at a (pretty) balanced metagame after every new Pokemon is added and a grace period of a couple weeks. Deviating from the canon, if to satisfy that second requirement, is fine in my eyes. If we want to deviate from the canon "just because", I am firmly against it. Think of it as two laws, but one can be broken in "self defense" of the metagame.
That's what I was thinking too. Really, even though I thought it unnecessary, there needs to be a vote for checks and counters, so that we can stick to it, and anything that could take them out by any means wouldn't be allowed. I find it quite rediculous that people want Grass moves of all things, just to beat bulky waters.
All Grass Moves should stay controversial.
I defy anyone here to provide a definition for a balanced metagame, let alone how one would launch a defense of it. It can barely be decided upon in Standard OU, let alone our humble community. Revenankh seems to be a case study in what happens when you make a pokemon too powerful for its own good, and the rub is Revenankh actually has the most modest BSR out of all the CAP creations, and a fairly uninspiring movepool.
So why does it beat the stuffing out of everything? ShedRest + statup + STAB coverage. Of which, ShedRest is arguably the most important factor.
Why assume that any of these move are going to make it to the final movepool? None of them are set in stone except for Required moves and I believe even those moves can be removed if they're deemed too powering for a Pokemon at hand. Why is it ridiculous for people to suggest Grass and Electric to allow this Pokemon to beat Bulky Water. Seriously it's like some time honored tradition for all Physical Water types to be walled by other water types. What kind of stereotypical bullshit is that? The CAP project has the power to break traditions and stereotypes and manipulate flavor to suit it's needs, why can't we allow it to learn Thunder Punch or Seed Bomb or whatever? Sure those move could hurt those poor Bulky waters but they're wasn't a community agreement towards allowing every single Bulky water known to fucking man to be in it's list of "I wall the fuck out of you". At the least, I remember Slowbro, Suicune, and Starmie being thrown around, no one else. Gyarados was only mention once within discussion and everyone believed he's makes a good counter/check. You know this whole mess could be solved by saying that everything discussed so far be placed on the allowed list and then tell movepool makers that it's up to them to see what move they want to add or not. There...problem solved and we can get on with the next part of the project.
Thanks for completely pulling a strawman. I wasn't talking about Revenankh at all. I never said define a balanced metagame, I meant come to one that doesn't have any one Pokemon head and shoulders above the rest. Revenankh may come close, but there are plenty of checks for it if you know where to look, Scarf Jirachi and Celebi come to mind immediately. However, this isn't a discussion on Revenankh, this is a discussion on whether or not we should break canon just because it's canon, which is incredibly narrow-minded as I've said before. If we were to just stick to canon, there would be no Create-a-Pokemon project.
I did not realize that all Fighting types get the move, which certainly makes it a difficult trend to break here. I made a similar argument back when discussing Stratagem's movepool, and there was an Anti-Suicide-Lead faction that really didn't want Stealth Rock. But, like tennis said, we CAN break any trend, even one as blatant as the Fighting/Bulk Up trend you are mentioning. I know you know that DK, so I won't belabor it here. I was merely pointing out that I don't see a competitive reason for BU. I didn't realize you were assuming it because of game canon. However, if this pokemon's attacking movepool keeps going the way it is headed right now, I can easily see myself arguing against BU later on...
I also agree that the Counters discussion seems like a distant memory in this thread. We'll revisit the issue after CAP6 and see if we can put some more structure around deciding Counters/Checks. As it sits right now, we're still all over the map with this movepool.
If we were just to ignore canon at our whim, we would have a Create-A-Fanboyish-Wetdream project.
Maybe it's just coming from a writing standpoint, but if you aren't going to honor canon you are going to create a crapfic. It could be the most popular crapfic ever made, but it is still incoherent and tangential. It'd be like inserting Gandalf into the middle of Harry Potter through a dimension rift. It serves no purpose but to satisfy one's fanperson urges.
And again, X-Act created a Required Moves topic. Suggesting we ignore what is clearly evident in pokemon canon makes that topic worthless. Canon and flavor are two entirely different considerations. Canon is something you can point to that has a 100% occurrence rate given a certain condition. Flavor is something common but not definitive. If you make a creation that forgoes flavor moves, you still have a Pokemon. A Fighting type without Bulk Up is like a Ghost type without Shadow Ball. It is canonically impossible.
For an elaboration, consider Will-O-Wisp. Once made a TM, ALL Fire types got it. Ghost types? MOST of them got it. Which one's didn't? Froslass and Shedinja: Two Ghost types weak to Fire. Canonically, you cannot make a Fire type without Will-O-Wisp. Ghost types? There's certainly a trend, but it isn't iron-clad. Thus why Revenankh is not known for burning everything in sight. We made a decision that Fire moves did not fit a mummy theme, and thus WoW was disregarded.
However, it is difficult to believe we are making a "Pokemon" if we ignore iron-clad canonical rules. Once you ignore canon, you are not creating a "Pokemon," you are creating a creature only tangentially related to it, whose sole existence is to satisfy what you wish Pokemon was and not what it is.
Well again, I approach this from the perspective of a writer, and Pokemon isn't about writing. So no, I suppose violating canon would not be a huge blow to credibility among your average user, but it wouldn't sit right by me simply because we have named our Project Create-A-Pokemon, not Create-A-Creature.
If it were just about creating creatures with no relation to Pokemon, but that could be used to battle them in an online simulator, my objections would be irrelevant.
Were it Create-A-Creature, for example, I'd have had no problems with the much mocked "Warlax" creation of long ago. New, overpowered, crazy moves? Weird base stats? Completely incoherent regarding evolutionary progression? Who cares, it isn't like we're creating a Pokemon here.
One last thought on canon:
Before the Platinum Move Tutors, I would have heavily criticized any random Flying pokemon with a fire move(unless it was a Fire or Dragon type). When the Platinum Tutors gave Heat Wave to basically every winged pokemon, canon changed. Thus, why I'd still probably oppose Flamethrower on some kind of bird-themed Poison type, but would be open to discussion of Heat Wave.
In the case of the Crane-themed Art, I'd probably oppose Heat Wave premised upon Pellipper's lack of it, but wouldn't discount its validity entirely.
it seems like you're placing arbitrary restrictions on the creation process/metagame effect which is kind of the point of the project =\
in a large way cap is create a creature, especially with stuff like ancient beam. that's a much more potent "canon violation" that "this fighting type doesn't get this move that all the other ones do".
nintendo can violate canon too. wobba/unown are the only psychic types that don't learn psychic xD
in a large way cap is create a creature, especially with stuff like ancient beam. that's a much more potent "canon violation" that "this fighting type doesn't get this move that all the other ones do".
nintendo can violate canon too. wobba/unown are the only psychic types that don't learn psychic xD
You're clutching at straws, DK. This is extreme conservatism. In reality, some minor alterations to the standard Fight or Water movepool - alterations that are only so bizarre as giving Slowpoke Flamethrower, and certainly not so weird as giving Wooper punches - do not reduce CAP to a 'make-a-monster' farce.
CAP6 does not seem to be getting: "New, overpowered, crazy moves? Weird base stats? Completely incoherent regarding evolutionary progression?"
(Also, I take issue at the way you're abusing the concept canonical works, they not only to be mirrored entirely, they are to be drawn upon. But that's not really an issue to take up on this thread)
CAP6 does not seem to be getting: "New, overpowered, crazy moves? Weird base stats? Completely incoherent regarding evolutionary progression?"
(Also, I take issue at the way you're abusing the concept canonical works, they not only to be mirrored entirely, they are to be drawn upon. But that's not really an issue to take up on this thread)
Nintendo cannot violate canon because they are the source of the canon. If Nintendo creates a 5th generation with a single Fighting type incapable of learning Bulk Up, my entire argument collapses. For now it is canonically accurate.
Wobba/Unown are sequestered under another canonical feature: Pokemon that cannot learn any TMs or Tutor Moves (Ironically, Platinum Tutors created two separate canonical categories, now that Beldum and Magikarp get Tutor moves, but not TMs).
That's the beauty of good writing. To me, every pokemon is like a morphology page in a science book. It opens you into a fairly logical universe if you look at overarching trends.
There is nothing arbitrary about canon. Canon is what defines a series as what it is.
Punishment, Icy Wind, and Ice Fang are recommended for Allowed.
Punishment works well with Unaware to make big stat boosters pay.
Icy Wind is quite nice given that it could be used on a switchin to outspeed.
Ice Fang would be art dependent but is generally inferior to Ice Punch anyway.
Just move Punishment, Ice Fang, and Icy Wind to allowed. They probably have some use on CAP6.
Considering the average Speed of this Pokemon, I'd like to add my support for Payback, Revenge and Avalanche being added to Allowed. There's little harm in these moves going on, there aren't major conflicts with trends among Water and Fighting-types and on a Choice Band set they may find use, particularly Avalanche and Payback to strike second for more power than say, Ice Punch or Shadow Punch/Claw.
Also, I'd like to ask what people think about Bite and Crunch?
Also, I'd like to ask what people think about Bite and Crunch?
I'm with Deck Knight on this one. Not giving Bulk Up to a fully-evolved Fighting type is like not giving Rain Dance to a fully-evolved Water type. Would you EVER consider a Water Pokemon not learning Rain Dance?
Seriously, if we're going to break this trend, you should have looked into it when you voted for the stats and for the typing. You voted for those stats and for that typing. You can't say "yeah I vote for those stats and for this Pokemon to be Fighting-type but now I'm not going to give it Bulk Up".
By the way, the reason Revenankh has Bulk Up is precisely because it is a Fighting type.
I know that this is the attacking moves thread but I'm assuming that this Pokemon is going to have Rain Dance, Hail, Ice Beam, Blizzard, and Bulk Up in its movepool, because all Water types get the first 4 moves and all Fighting types get the last move. I'm not even sure about Surf but I'm pretty sure about those.
Seriously, if we're going to break this trend, you should have looked into it when you voted for the stats and for the typing. You voted for those stats and for that typing. You can't say "yeah I vote for those stats and for this Pokemon to be Fighting-type but now I'm not going to give it Bulk Up".
By the way, the reason Revenankh has Bulk Up is precisely because it is a Fighting type.
I know that this is the attacking moves thread but I'm assuming that this Pokemon is going to have Rain Dance, Hail, Ice Beam, Blizzard, and Bulk Up in its movepool, because all Water types get the first 4 moves and all Fighting types get the last move. I'm not even sure about Surf but I'm pretty sure about those.
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