Cloyster (Lead)



Cloyster

STATUS: GP Checks 2/2 Ready to upload

[Overview]
<h4>OU</h4>

<p>While Cloyster may seem like an unconventional choice for the OU tier, it's one of the few viable Spikes users with a STAB priority attack and Explosion in its repertory to fill the role of a lead. Cloyster's decent typing and great physical defense allow it to take hits from many powerful leads, such as Swampert, Aerodactyl, and Jirachi. Although Cloyster is a solid Spikes user, its HP and Special Defense are very low by OU standards, meaning that powerful neutral special attacks will heavily damage it and super effective hits will almost always eliminate it. Cloyster's decent offensive stats mean that it can run a mixed set with STAB moves in the form of Surf and Ice Shard, gaining fantastic coverage against the common leads in the current metagame. As always, Explosion is an excellent move for a lead that has fulfilled its job to deal great amounts of damage while preventing Cloyster from becoming set-up fodder. Overall, Cloyster is a good choice in OU for teams that need Spikes support from the get-go.</p>

[SET]
name: OU Lead
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Shard
move 4: Explosion
item: Life Orb
ability: Shell Armor
nature: Quiet
evs: 220 HP / 104 Atk / 180 SpA / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes advantage of Cloyster's set-up capabilities and great physical bulk. It can stack Spikes and deal with most leads in the current metagame with just its dual STAB moves. The combination of Surf followed by Ice Shard takes down many suicide leads, and Explosion lets it go out with a bang after it has finished its job. Shell Armor also helps to avoid random critical hits that may end Cloyster's Spikes set-up prematurely.</p>

<p>The EVs are tailored to beat or set-up against most common leads. In particular, the 220 HP EVs allow Cloyster to always survive Azelf's Fire Blast, take hits from Metagross's Meteor Mash and Jirachi's Iron Head, and even survive a Machamp's DynamicPunch, enabling a successful Spikes set-up. The 180 EVs in Special Attack along with the 104 Attack EVs are specifically used to take down Azelf leads with Surf followed by Ice Shard. 4 Speed EVs, even with a hindering nature, will allow Cloyster to outpace minimum Speed Tyranitar along with the slower Swampert and Machamp.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Cloyster's Surf can handle a lot of physically defensive leads like Metagross, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Skarmory, and Forretress without the need to use Explosion, thus saving the devastating move for stat-boosters like Gyarados and Suicune.</p>

<p>It is worth noting that a Life Orb-boosted Explosion is able to almost always take down Swampert, so teams that have problems with its early Stealth Rock can be stopped right away by sacrificing Cloyster early. If Stealth Rock isn't a problem for your team, then Cloyster can easily set up Spikes on the small damage taken from Swampert's Earthquake. Cloyster always survives Machamp's combination of DynamicPunch and Bullet Punch, meaning Cloyster can lay down one layer of Spikes and attempt to avoid the confusion from DynamicPunch and finish off Machamp with Explosion.</p>

<p>Cloyster functions well as a member of a Fire-, Water-, and Grass-type Pokemon core by covering its weaknesses with Heatran and Celebi; as a bonus, they can both set up Stealth Rock for your team. A Ghost-type partner might come in handy to block Rapid Spin; Rotom-A works best as it resists Cloyster's Electric-type weakness and is immune to its Fighting-type weakness.</p>

[Team Options]
<h4>OU</h4>

<p>If you're using Cloyster in OU, chances are that you're using it to set-up Spikes. As such, you should always pair it with Pokemon that enjoy Spikes support, like Dragon Dance Tyranitar and Swords Dance Infernape. SubCharge Rotom-A can also utilize the support, and has the additional ability to block any attempts to Rapid Spin away Cloyster's Spikes. Cloyster can also be a part of a hail team based on indirect damage that doesn't want to spoil the surprise too early with Abomasnow in the lead position; Abomasnow also synergizes well with Cloyster defensively, being able to take the Grass- and Electric-type attacks thrown at Cloyster.</p>

[Optional Changes]
<h4>OU</h4>

<p>One of Cloyster's main selling points has always been the move Rapid Spin, which can be used instead of Explosion. Mystic Water is an alternative item choice that can boost the power of Cloyster's strongest attack, Surf. If using Rapid Spin, another EV spread becomes viable: 220 HP / 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe, which allows Cloyster to 3HKO Azelf leads via Surf + Rapid Spin + Ice Shard. Toxic Spikes can go over Spikes in both sets. A Rash nature will Speed tie minimum Speed Metagross, but a few EVs can be taken from HP to possibly outspeed, though it will make Cloyster more prone to die by Azelf's Fire Blast, so tread carefully.</p>

[Counters]
<h4>OU</h4>

<p>As far as lead match-ups are concerned, Cloyster's worst enemies are Roserade, Celebi, Starmie, and Empoleon. Against Roserade, Cloyster can still badly hurt it with Ice Shard while also breaking its Focus Sash before getting slept by Sleep Powder or annihilated by Leaf Storm, but against all the others Cloyster has to flee for its life. Some common switch-ins after Cloyster has taken down the opposing lead are Suicune and Gyarados that want to use Cloyster as set-up bait just to be surprised by an Explosion; Rotom-A is another common revenge killer that Cloyster has no business dealing with.</p>
 

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
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hey look it's a lead that isn't immediately terrible

I'm actually fairly interested in this, since it looks like a pretty legit lead, and it actually does something on a fairly regular basis.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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Why not run Rock Blast? I'm not seeing anything on your lead matchup list that is better dealt with using Surf except Heatran (who beats you easily) and Hippo (who is uncommon and can be exploded on), and with Rock Blast you can have a stronger Explosion due to not having to split EVs and you don't have to run Rash (i.e. Azelf no longer ohkos you with Psychic). Rock Blast -> Ice Shard kills Azelf all the time and Infernape around half the time, and kills Aerodactyl through its sash. At the very least it deserves a slash (and Adamant a slash with Rash)
 

Seven Deadly Sins

~hallelujah~
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Killing Aerodactyl through the sash is a glitch, and I will never approve a thread that relies on abusing a glitch.

Bad FlareBlitz! Bad!
 

supermarth64

Here I stand in the light of day
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Plus Rock Blast has that ugly 80% accuracy.

/me slaps FlareBlitz around a bit with a large trout
 
Surf helps with metagross and swampert from the list (apart from those you mentioned), along with skarmory, bronzong, forretress, mamoswine, etc etc etc

And shell armor helps a lot on those damn crits from the start DX
 
Surf helps with metagross and swampert from the list (apart from those you mentioned), along with skarmory, bronzong, forretress, mamoswine, etc etc etc

And shell armor helps a lot on those damn crits from the start DX
Thing is, against most of those leads you should be Spiking, not attacking.
 
Indeed, but after the spiking there are times when exploding isn't the best response against those walls, like against forretress and skarmory, you can put a huge dent on them by surfing without dying (60-70% to standards), since both will be spiking along yourself.

Don't forget those Gliscor leads from time to time, since they survive even max + nature ice shard and sets up stealth rock, but dies through surf.

Kind of like, this isn't just a suicide lead, but a merge of leads.
 
I think that instead of Rash you should be running a Quiet nature, as you keep the boost in SpA and your SpD isn't harmed.
 
Yeah it could work, the only reason why rash is used is to be faster than metagross, but if you find bulk to be more important, then go with quiet and the 12 ev's go to HP.

With 158 speed it still beats swampert, machamp and slower leads. It speed tie's with Ttar lead, so 4 EV's can go on speed just to be able to do something against it.

EDIT: With quiet and 220 HP EV's, it has more chances of surviving the fire blast (80.41% - 94.59%) from azelf with enough HP to kill it next turn, psychic is still close to kill (41.02% of OHKO) death by life orb recoil if it survives.
 
Ah, this set looks pretty decent and reliable. I might test it.
Unlike Forretress it doesn't act a total set-up bait for Gyara/ Mence.
 

shrang

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Rapid Spin should get a slash, IMO. Apart from Spikes, one of Cloyster's biggest selling is Spinning. Hell, you can Surf + Rapid Spin to get the cool kill on Aerodactyl and letting it achieve absolutely nothing.
 
I thought so for an instance, but rapid spin (over Ice Shard) doesn't 2HKO Azelf and makes the lead lose to: Roserade, Ninjask, Dragonite among others which priority helps a lot.

Spinning, spiking and anti-leading, I believe it is too much to ask xD

The biggest issue here is that Cloyster lacks a strong physical stab attack (maybe Avalanche but it needs to be hurt first to work), with the strongest attack being Rock Blast, would be the same as the UU lead.

But maybe a bulkier spread with Spikes/Rapid Spin/Surf/Ice Shard

With all the attacking EV's for Surf and keeping Ice Shard just for the priority and some 4x damage to mence/nite.

Any suggestions for a set like it? I'm making the calcs, will post it later.

EDIT:

name: Spin\Spike Lead
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Shard
move 4: Rapid Spin
item: Mystic Water
nature: Quiet
Ability: Shell Armor
evs: 220 Hp / 32 Atk /252 SAtk / 4 Spd

Best EV spread I could come up with, without life orb recoil it survives a little longer while attacking (due Rapid Spin pitiful damage)

Azelf: Kind of better than the life orb attacker, since it survives fire blast and barely survives psychic, It can put a hurt with surf (71.92% - 84.59%), any azelf would like to get it's rocks before being revenge killed after killing cloyster, so you can spin right away (6.85% - 8.22%) and then almost always finish it off with ice shard (19.86% - 23.63%) with you surviving the face off and maybe with your taunt worn off.
The only way Azelf can survive is that you roll min damage on 3 attacks (98.63%) which is almost less than likely.

Aerodactyl: Great match up, as it can't get rocks up, if you get taunted surf+ice shard, if he got rocks surf+spikes+rapid spin.

Swampert: Still even matchup, spike he stealth rock, You rapid spin, he roars or quakes, if he quaked then spike he rocks, again quake while you spin, after you have 3 spikes and he doesn't have stealth rock surf deals 37.62%-44.52% of damage, so he will more than likely stealth rock, then you spin again to eat another quake with good chances of surviving the 4th you surf again for another 40~ damage, so taking into account leftovers (40 - 12 = 28 + 40 = 68 - 6 = 62) so 60% of damage done by now means that with another surf next turn will kill, so you might decide what is best for your team, a death pert or no rocks, so you will most likely decide to spin away those nasty rocks.
Here is a possible 9 turn of stall against these 2=
Turn 1=Spikes/Rocks 2=Spin/quake 3=Spikes/Rocks 4=Spike/quake 5=spin/quake 6=surf/rocks 7=spin/quake 8=surf/rocks 9=spin/quake Cloyster 100 74 74 50 26 26 1 1 0 Swampert 100 100 100 100 100 66 69 35 37
I took into account some turns of 3% leftovers gain due rapid spin dealing 3% damage too =D

So you get 3 layers of spikes without stealth rock on your side and a killable swampert that if it switches it will be left at 12%~ after switching back due spikes, pretty nice imo.

Metagross: Again rocks and spikes, then you spike while he meteor mashes to deal (36.49% - 43.92%) clean 3HKO, if it doesn't have meteor mash you can spin after the 3 quakes and keep on spinning until it kills you, so you can revenge it without having to deal with the rocks.
Or attempt to kill with 2 surfs (46.28% - 54.55%) from the start, if it survives then spin the rocks away to kill it alongside nicely, if it still manages to survive with 1%, ice shard for the lolz.
I believe the 2nd option is the best, since a team without rocks and grossless is better than 3 layers of spikes for your team, you decide what fits your team better.

Machamp: Worse matchup than before, you might attempt to hurt or setup a layer of spikes, surf deals 45.14% - 53.54% to standard attacking lead, so it gets close to the 2HKO if you decide to attack confused, or switch to a counter.

Jirachi: same as before, though he will get a useless mystic water to trick you and you don't have an scarfed explosion to revenge, still you can predict another trick your team and send cloyster to face it since even if it attacks iron head won't deal that much damage, for an easy spin of it's rocks while it stacks spikes damage =D

Same match up with the rest of the leads, tyranitar is hurt by 41.58% - 49.01% with surf, easily revenge killable after 2 surfs due being faster.
 

supermarth64

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Not a QC member but I'll weigh in anyway.

This is a great lead, being able to take advantage of bulky leads and laying up at least two layers against them. It's a bit eh against Azelf, as depending on their HP EVs, might not 2HKO with Surf + Ice Shard. I found Explosion useful but missed Rapid Spin at times.

Definitely needs Ghost-types to be paired up with this, namely Rotom-A. Rotom-H would be a good choice to take out Forry and Skarm who can switch in on this, and Forry can't spin away entry hazards. Rotom-H also takes Electric-type attacks aimed at Cloyster (if it has to), while Cloyster's Defense means it doesn't mind taking a few Crunches or Pursuits that Ttar does.

Also, Rotom-H and Cloyster together leaves it weak to Heatran (due to Cloyster being slower), so another bulky water is a good choice. Swampert can set up SR for more residual damage while Slowbro beats Machamp leads (something this set can have problems with if Cloyster hits itself in its confusion). Vaporeon, Suicune, and Milotic (I used Milotic to test it out) all also help out.

Haven't tried the Rapid Spin version before, though idk if it's really necessary since LO Surf 2HKOes both Forry and Skarmory and Cloyster vs Tentacruel is a bit bleh.
 

remlabmez

@dacopboss
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Bleh, I think I am convinced this thing can work...its just like phil and setsuna never provided how their test went, so I will wait for them to report in before I make a final decision
 
I've been using cloyster as a lead while you guys were still in diapers...

lol, jkjk...but here's the simplistic set I use:

adamant
focus sash

payback
iceshard
spikes
explosion

ev: 252 atk
252 hp
4 def

(yeah...lots of attack, baby)

payback smacks around azelf leads, and starmie and rotoms, who come to block, thinking you have rapid spin. With max attack you always rid starmie with payback+ice shard. Payback'll always 2HKO rotoms who switch into payback when you have your sash.

This set loses badly to heatran, but you get all the same matchups as previously mentioned. This sets up 2 layers of spikes on average and explosion takes out anything unresistant, naturally...

Hint...when someone tricks scarfs onto you when you're spiking, it's better to switch out for they might bring in a spinner and force you out anyways.
 
Yeah it could work, the only reason why rash is used is to be faster than metagross, but if you find bulk to be more important, then go with quiet and the 12 ev's go to HP.
I believe this would be classified as speed creep, which we should try to avoid. You can mention that a few speed EVs may help it outrun standard Metagross in the comments, though.
 
I believe this would be classified as speed creep, which we should try to avoid. You can mention that a few speed EVs may help it outrun standard Metagross in the comments, though.
Added to the comments, and lately the lead on the Metagross analysis has been shifted to 28 which is too much to take from bulk.

Tried Payback at first instance, but found the coverage from Surf more appealing.
 

AccidentalGreed

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Hm, yeah. I'm leaning towards no Rapid Spin, since the advantages of Ice Shard outweigh Rapid Spin and Cloyster is bulky in general.
 

Setsuna

Prototype
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I just want to say that I´m very pleased with how this lead worked. Definitely effective. I want to support the Life Orb user, as it proved to be more useful and boosting the Explosion through the item is definitely something you want. I would list Celebi and Roserade as leads that can be a real threat to Cloyster as they both get a straight OHKO with Leaf Storm 100% of the time. Because of this, Pokemon such as Shuca Heatran and support Jirachi are advisable secondary Pokemon for setting up SR while the aforementioned leads attack with their Grass-type STAB move.
 

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