Moody

[XienZo]

It would make it all too easy to remove Bidoof and Octilary, as evasion would mean nothing and there is always that chance they got +2 Evade and -1 SpDef. Of course, this is Moody, so anything's possible, I just didn't realize solving anything was really the mission here; 30+ pages of back-and-forth so far has only really confirmed that yeah, it's a definite issue, but like most of them, there are ways around it. I just think, in the wide world of pokemon, there are bigger issues to worry about than this.

It wouldn't make them that much easier to handle, since they can just stall for a Sp.Def boost to tank the Shock Waves or Sp.Atk/Atk to just outright KO you.

I mean, when you treat Moody as just an evasion booster, you're COMPLETELY underestimating the entire capability of the ability.

 

[Sy123]

My issues with removing Inconsistant.

1) To my knowledge, abilites such as Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, which serve specifically to boost evasion without the element of luck, aren't banned, or non-dreamworld Froslass would be useless. Thusly, this sort of thing has no precedent, and is based on biased conjecture.
First you need weather to set this up (this isnt an issue but it can change a team around if you purposely want this ability to come into effect) Second, Inconsistent provides 2 evasion boosts (if lucky) while Sand Veil/Snow Cloak only provide 1. If you have been in the battle tower, then you will realise the huge impact 2 evasion boosts can have

2) Luck clearly isn't a big issue in the metagame, as concepts like ParaFusion and RestTalk have long been used and abused by players to create a primarily luck-based environment, even in just isolated pockets.
ParaFusion and Rest Talk can be dealt with. Inconsistent can be aswell except it is much much harder to deal with. Rest Talk basically brings in powerhouse ready to beat the pulp of blue scum (yes you Suicune) into oblivion. Parafusion is potentially requires 2 turns of set up, while Inconsistent needs you to switch in, and you potentially have an Octillery with awesome coverage at +2 speed, which previously could only be done with the careful strategy of Baton passing. Not to mention a potenital +2 evasion.

3) Attacks like Rapid Spin are crappy, but have a single side-effect that warrents there heavy usage, as it specifically combats specific threats. Priority attacks fall into this catagory too, and there are plenty of ways to abuse them by boosting their power. Why don't never-miss attacks fill this same niche, especially when most Moody users are either normal or water, making Aura Sphere and even Shockwave Super Effective(to run some numbers, Shock Wave with STAB is JUST as strong as STAB+Technician Bullet Punch. To put this into perspective, Shock Wave off of Magnezone is just as powerful as Bullet Punch Scizor)
So to combat Inconsistent evasion we must all pack a vital moveslot for pokemon that need it i.e Magnezone, Lucario, Dragonite.
Rapid Spin isnt that overused by the way

Lastly, I feel like a lot of logs of 'I got swept by Moody/Inconsistant' are biased; think of it like the news paper; the number of people who will complain about being beaten by it are ALWAYS going to be higher than the number of people who speak up about having no issue beating it.
If the people decide it's too big a deal, I guess there's not much to be said, but I don't really think it's really that broken.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Eh, this is where my post on Feint had gone? no wonder i couldn't find it. urgh. ignore this post, delete it, w/e. >_>

 

[guanlong]

Exactly my point though. 90 BP off of a 130 base stat is scary enough that I've seen him in ubers; you don't need a more powerful move, if you can get one that addresses a specific threat or shortcoming. If you're afraid of Moody evasion boosts, maybe you might wanna run a Shock Wave instead of Thunder(bolt). If you'd rather feel safe and comfortable with the consistancy and power of Thunder(bolt), and the removal of Moody, then why not. I wouldn't WANT to run Shock Wave, just because of Bidoofs, but the possibility is out there, and I don't think this sort of devation from competative play's comfort zone is THAT game-breaking - but of course, these are just my thoughts and observations, I'm sure competative pokemon will survive my opinions.

People use Scizor in Ubers as a Dragon or Dark resist that can revenge kill its targets with a strong STAB priority. Your comparison to Shock Wave is invalid; Scizor uses BP over Iron Head because it's as slow as fuck, whereas a user of STAB Shock Wave (eg Zapdos) would use Thunderbolt because it's more powerful. Shock Wave is weak and never missing has no benefits when Thunderbolt has 100acc AND a paralysis chance. In essence, you are using an otherwise useless move so as to check a luck-based strategy.

Rapid Spin, unlike never-miss moves, does not only remove Stealth Rock; it removes Spikes and Toxic Spikes. It can even get rid of Leech Seed! It isn't completely useless outside of removing Stealth Rocks and isn't even as common as such never-miss moves would be if Moody was to run rampant in OU again.

Restalk isn't luck-based in that its purpose is not to get good luck and beat the opponent solely with that method. In fact, if you say that Restalk is luck-based in the manner of Moody, we will arrive at a slippery slope where every fucking move with imperfect accuracy will have to be banned as thy are unreliable (Stone Miss and Focus Miss come to mind). I will concede that Brightpowder is luck-based and highly annoying, though; however, it has a higher chance of screwing you up if you fail (eg Starmie beats Garchomp should Ice Beam hit). Moody will still lead you to a victory if you get boosts in other stats (offensive stats for sweepage and defensive for Toxic stalling).

 

[Quixim]

I absolutely cannot understand why a 1/7th chance of an evasion boost is up for a ban when serene grace flinch abusers (especially with a choice scarf to almost ensure going first) gets scoffed off by the same people. It really, really baffles me.

And yes, there's ways to get around that flinching. You could pick a priority move (which have lower power than never-miss moves) or you could pick a pokemon that's guaranteed to outspeed it, or scarf something of your own (Which means you're limiting your pokemon and/or item choices to deal with a single threat, things which apparently are too damaging to the metagame).

If you're letting someone setup for -at least- two turns (ingrain and baton pass) without managing to either knock them out, cripple them, or in some other way stop their plans, then either they've eliminated a sufficient amount of threats to do so, or you're simply negligent as a battler.

 

[CTNC]

I absolutely cannot understand why a 1/7th chance of an evasion boost is up for a ban

This is where i stoped reading. You have never faced it.

 

[XienZo]

I absolutely cannot understand why a 1/7th chance of an evasion boost is up for a ban when serene grace flinch abusers (especially with a choice scarf to almost ensure going first) gets scoffed off by the same people. It really, really baffles me.

It'd baffle everyone, in fact.

Of course, as it turns out, Moody is FAR from a 1/7th chance of an evasion boost.

And why would they need Ingrain support? The whole point is to switch out whenever the RNG isn't on your side. Passing Ingrain would doom the Moody abuser more often then not.

 

[Dragon-Shinobi]

Haha that first picture is great. Anyways, in my opinion it shouldn't be banned. Mainly because the pokemon that get it aren't the biggest threats, but it's also somewhat balanced since it drops a stat too. I think non-Ubers being able to get Shadow Tag/Drizzle/Drought is worse than this.

That said, I've never faced an Inconsistent user so I've never had anything get +2 Evasion (in a competitive battle anyway).

 

[Showsni]

Haha that first picture is great. Anyways, in my opinion it shouldn't be banned. Mainly because the pokemon that get it aren't the biggest threats, but it's also somewhat balanced since it drops a stat too. I think non-Ubers being able to get Shadow Tag/Drizzle/Drought is worse than this.

That said, I've never faced an Inconsistent user so I've never had anything get +2 Evasion (in a competitive battle anyway).

Yeah, if you've ever faced it, you'd know how bad it can be. For instance, I've faced a team of six ubers. They smashed through 5 of my team with little problem. My final Pokémon was a Moody Bibarel. Protect, got a speed boost. Substitute. Repeat. Beat all six ubers on its own. It might not be totally broken; but it does at least allow anyone who just happens to get lucky to beat a superior team from time to time.

 

[Quixim]

Yeah, if you've ever faced it, you'd know how bad it can be. For instance, I've faced a team of six ubers. They smashed through 5 of my team with little problem. My final Pokémon was a Moody Bibarel. Protect, got a speed boost. Substitute. Repeat. Beat all six ubers on its own. It might not be totally broken; but it does at least allow anyone who just happens to get lucky to beat a superior team from time to time.

First off, you're assuming that I haven't faced it, which is incorrect.


Secondly: So? Anecdotal evidence isn't worth anything. I once had three -defensive- Pokemon fully swept by a choice scarf togekiss because it flinched them to death. It's more than conceivably possible that you could sweep an -entire- team with it unless they had something that could outspeed it, or that had inner focus.

On the topic of Inconsistent, the fact that nothing in a team of six can do anything about it if it's the last pokemon makes it sound a bit more like the Snorlax of gen 3. It can curse and rest and sleep talk and is practically impervious to harm during this, but I don't really remember it being in ubers (I wasn't around for much of that generation though, so correct me if I am wrong). What's more, if you have a priority attack to hit him before the substitute goes up, a phaser to spin him in and out during the match to wear down his health bar (Assuming of course you have entry hazards up), or someone with multi-hitting attacks to break the sub and damage him.

 

[Agent123]

@Quixum

That instance is invalid. The chance of a Moddy user gaining a Speed Boost and then sweeping your entire team is a 1/7 chance, while your example is significantly lower than that. Also, a team can easily stack 2+ Moody users to get an even bigger chance of sweeping, boosting the chances of winng to almost or even above 50%. Finally, it isn't just that guy who lost to a Moody user when he was winning the whole time. I've lost to a Moody user, others have lost to Moody user, almost everybody's lost to a Moody user, and there is almost no way to stop it. There are a ton of logs of a Moody Bidoof sweeping an entire team of Ubers.

 

[XienZo]

On the topic of Inconsistent, the fact that nothing in a team of six can do anything about it if it's the last pokemon makes it sound a bit more like the Snorlax of gen 3. It can curse and rest and sleep talk and is practically impervious to harm during this, but I don't really remember it being in ubers (I wasn't around for much of that generation though, so correct me if I am wrong). What's more, if you have a priority attack to hit him before the substitute goes up, a phaser to spin him in and out during the match to wear down his health bar (Assuming of course you have entry hazards up), or someone with multi-hitting attacks to break the sub and damage him.

Yeah, but it can avoid phasing through evasion boosts or KO your phazer with a +2 attack. Generally, they won't come in on the first place if you already have a strong priority user out, so they'll get a Sub up as you switch in. Multi-hitters would be fine if they didn't all get 2HKOed by non-boosted attacks.

 

[Quixim]

Yeah, but it can avoid phasing through evasion boosts or KO your phazer with a +2 attack. Generally, they won't come in on the first place if you already have a strong priority user out, so they'll get a Sub up as you switch in. Multi-hitters would be fine if they didn't all get 2HKOed by non-boosted attacks.

Hmm, you have a point. The chance of it boosting the evasion if I sent out a phaser to deal with it right away (Which is what I'd do) gives it two turns (Assuming it protects on the second turn) to attempt to get the evasion up in order to even try and avoid the phase.

I'm not worried too much about the extra damage - the majority of phasers are fairly tough (Hippowdon, defensive zapdos, skarmory).

At any result, this isn't a very huge issue, in my mind. There are plenty of things (Priority moves, auto-hit moves, phasers, taunters, multi-hitters, pranksters) that can work around it in some way or another, and of those, only multi-hitters and auto-hit moves aren't already very common.

 

[XienZo]

Hmm, you have a point. The chance of it boosting the evasion if I sent out a phaser to deal with it right away (Which is what I'd do) gives it two turns (Assuming it protects on the second turn) to attempt to get the evasion up in order to even try and avoid the phase.

I'm not worried too much about the extra damage - the majority of phasers are fairly tough (Hippowdon, defensive zapdos, skarmory).

All Moody abusers get access to Ice moves, and Hippo/Skarm don't take Hydro Pumps at all. Considering you get 2 turns to blast away at it, that's going to sting after a while.

At any result, this isn't a very huge issue, in my mind. There are plenty of things (Priority moves, auto-hit moves, phasers, taunters, multi-hitters, pranksters) that can work around it in some way or another, and of those, only multi-hitters and auto-hit moves aren't already very common.

The problem is, those pokemon only address the stalling aspect of Moody abusers. You have to remember that they CAN pack a punch, especially after a +2.

Not to mention you can just pack Wobba to deal with every single one of those bar multi-hitters.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

People use Scizor in Ubers as a Dragon or Dark resist that can revenge kill its targets with a strong STAB priority. Your comparison to Shock Wave is invalid; Scizor uses BP over Iron Head because it's as slow as fuck, whereas a user of STAB Shock Wave (eg Zapdos) would use Thunderbolt because it's more powerful. Shock Wave is weak and never missing has no benefits when Thunderbolt has 100acc AND a paralysis chance. In essence, you are using an otherwise useless move so as to check a luck-based strategy.

...Wait. Did I just hear, that comparing Pokemon A, using move B (with low power and a useful side effect), dealing with Ubers Threat C(dragons or moody, take your pick), is invalid, simply because one is competitively easier to abuse?
Personally, I don't really mind too much either way. I wont be impressed until I can see a legitimate log of a Smeargle without Baton Pass sweeping a good team(and then, I'll fight tooth and nail not to ban it; Smeargle needs the help IMO)

 

[XienZo]

...Wait. Did I just hear, that comparing Pokemon A, using move B (with low power and a useful side effect), dealing with Ubers Threat C(dragons or moody, take your pick), is invalid, simply because one is competitively easier to abuse?
Personally, I don't really mind too much either way. I wont be impressed until I can see a legitimate log of a Smeargle without Baton Pass sweeping a good team(and then, I'll fight tooth and nail not to ban it; Smeargle needs the help IMO)

That's rather biased though; asking for a handicapped Smeargle to sweep might be impressive, sure, but it's not relevant at all, since all (serious) Moody Smeargle sets WILL end up abusing Baton Pass.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

That's rather biased though; asking for a handicapped Smeargle to sweep might be impressive, sure, but it's not relevant at all, since all (serious) Moody Smeargle sets WILL end up abusing Baton Pass.

Biased, maybe, but a real test IMO; getting swept by a Bidoof is one thing, but I haven't heard of a single stand-alone Smeargle sweeping anything; and I for one think people are padding the numbers a bit here. Protect, Quiver Dance/Smash Shell, Spore, and I dunno, Double Edge or even Judgement if you can sketch it, should be able to take out the majority of an opposing team, if the claims of how powerful Moody is hold true. But again, I think Smeargle deserves to be more than just set-up for BP teams, so yeah, I'm a bit biased.

 

[XienZo]

Biased, maybe, but a real test IMO; getting swept by a Bidoof is one thing, but I haven't heard of a single stand-alone Smeargle sweeping anything; and I for one think people are padding the numbers a bit here. Protect, Quiver Dance/Smash Shell, Spore, and I dunno, Double Edge or even Judgement if you can sketch it, should be able to take out the majority of an opposing team, if the claims of how powerful Moody is hold true. But again, I think Smeargle deserves to be more than just set-up for BP teams, so yeah, I'm a bit biased.

I mean, it probably CAN do that, but anyone competent enough to abuse Moody in the first place is going to use Baton Pass to make the best of the boosts. And it (along with every Moody abuser) NEEDS both Protect AND Substitute to have any chance.

 

[Quixim]

All Moody abusers get access to Ice moves, and Hippo/Skarm don't take Hydro Pumps at all. Considering you get 2 turns to blast away at it, that's going to sting after a while.



The problem is, those pokemon only address the stalling aspect of Moody abusers. You have to remember that they CAN pack a punch, especially after a +2.

Not to mention you can just pack Wobba to deal with every single one of those bar multi-hitters.

Well, hydro pump only has 80 accuracy, so they're banking on multiple things. Something that's a mixed wall (Eviolite chansey, or a SpD specced Skarmory) should be able to handle both in at least some regard.

Furthermore, something like Gliscor (Again, with the Hydro Pump weakness, but bibarel's SpA is only 55) can taunt first, and Haxorus resists water but has a weakness to ice. If I'm worried about ice I can bring a Jellicent instead.

The end result of this line of theory is that it's possible for a pokemon with Inconsistent to, assuming it has the right moves at the right time and gets the right stat-ups, beat any other single pokemon one-on one. Maybe.

That just doesn't sound powerful enough for me.

 

[TLK]

This thing needs to be put to bed and people need to stop trying to go against the grain by saying it's not broken. I'm questioning how much you actually faced it, to be honest.

Fight tooth and nail not to ban it? It's gone. It got 97% votes to be banned and now people are considering banning it from UBERS because it's stupidly strong.

The reason people don't sweep with Smeargle is because it is outclassed as a sweeper under Inconsistent; Octillery and Bibarel do the job far better. Smeargle's main role with Inconsistent is to Baton Pass the boosts. That's why there's no log of a Smeargle sweep, because it would be entirely useless when Octillery can do it better with Sub, Protect, Scald, Toxic - which is only stopped by Toxicroak.

 

[guanlong]

Just posting to point out that a user stated earlier in this thread or the Ubers thread that he has swept Uber teams (legit ones, not the masses of Charizard-using fucktards) with Assist Power Smeargle...

 

[shadowbone66]

Yk what's a shame? No Unova Pokemon get this. Cuz if they did, you can bet ur ASS that that Pokemon would be on, like, every team.

...I find it humourous that my first post is merely wishful thinking.

 

[shadowbone66]

Yk what's a shame? No Unova Pokemon get this. Cuz if they did, you can bet ur ASS that that Pokemon would be on, like, every team.

...I find it humourous that my first post is merely wishful thinking.

Forgot to say that I meant this would only apply to VGC. XD

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

This thing needs to be put to bed and people need to stop trying to go against the grain by saying it's not broken. I'm questioning how much you actually faced it, to be honest.

Fight tooth and nail not to ban it? It's gone. It got 97% votes to be banned and now people are considering banning it from UBERS because it's stupidly strong.

I find this post disturbing, yes most people think they are wrong, but its not right to take away there privilage to talk about it. They should be able to debate it all they want, it doesn't matter if they are wrong. Just becuase someone is racist communist or anything else, and most people disagree with them. You don't throw them in jail for talking about there views.

 

[TLK]

I find this post disturbing, yes most people think they are wrong, but its not right to take away there privilage to talk about it. They should be able to debate it all they want, it doesn't matter if they are wrong. Just becuase someone is racist communist or anything else, and most people disagree with them. You don't throw them in jail for talking about there views.

Racism is a bad analogy in general since you can be thrown into prison for it.

You don't have to stop debating it, I just don't see the point in debating it anymore since it's almost universally considered broken and got nearly 100% votes to be banned.