np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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2 nitpicks.

1. You name the suspect thread "sandstorm." Normally I wouldn't have a problem with this but due to the recent "bandwagon" been going around, I feel this is just going to create more bias and potential bans of mons/abilities that are unfairly judged.

2. Really?????????? 1400? WHAT THE FUCK SHIT I DON'T WANT MORE SCRUBS VOTING. We had 80~ voters with 1450 who the fuck thinks 1400 is a better fucking idea. If anything make the fucking requirement HIGHER.

Edit: what the fuck is the "brain trust" smoking cause I want some.
I'm both highly insulted, and agree with you 100% at the same time.

Two months ago (I know....Old news), I broke into PO for a couple of months. I am usually a WiFi only type of battler. I only used old teams I battled with on WiFi, with a few very small tweeks to go with Gen 5. After my third day on, I stayed between 1350 (a little low, I know), and 1425. Again....USING OLD WIFI TEAMS.

Obviously I'm no scrub to pull that off, but I was a noob when it came to PO (and Shoddy for a short time).

So yeah, I agree....What would people say if WiFi teams of somewhat random sets, and Theorymon stuff became viable? I was making viable things like (I have the logs to prove if need be) an attacking lead Tentacruel that really worked.

Do you really want someone like me voting on things around here? Honestly, I wouldn't.
 

DetroitLolcat

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Okay, people complaining about reqs and levels and Smogon Council and all that stuff...

Thank God you're pushing the req limit back to 1450, but I fear that Smogon is actually becoming too lenient with giving out voting requirements. 1400 is obscenely low, it allows anyone who's remotely good at Pokemon to vote on Suspects. However, I think Smogon is making one big error in deciding requirements: We're correlating skill at Pokemon with actual ability to vote.

Tell me, why should hitting an arbitrary rating on a flawed ranking system against random opponents in a metagame where the RNG is king qualify you to make the most important decision on Smogon? One could hit those reqs in a night with a little, and I mean a little effort and not nearly be qualified to make decisions on the metagame. I was testing out a Drizzle team and it didn't get me far, but I really wanted to vote in the Suspect test so I looked in the RMT Forum, found a guy with some badges, and carbon copied his team. After a few hours of laddering, I shot up to a lofty 1456 and called it quits, and now I have a fancy little check mark by my name.

Am I knowledgeable about the metagame? Maybe. I played a lot of battles, read a lot of RMTs, and delved through the forums numerous times. I at least attempted to arm myself with knowledge so I could at least try to make my vote count. However, I bet a ton of voters stripped something from RMT, pasted it onto PO, and got reqs. They know nothing about the metagame, and their vote counts as much as the best damn battler on the site.

Secondly, look at how many idiotic voters say "I don't like having this pokemon" or "this pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame" and then click the Ban box for them. Those people should be getting infractions, not check marks! Dammit, half the voters only pick what makes the metagame easier for them! And there are a lot more people who have no idea what they're talking about then people who can make an informed decision.

So, Mr. Lolcat, you seem to be whining about the process. How do you go about fixing it? I know my opinion matters nada around here, but I still want to continue my rant/present an opinion about this/increase my post count, so I'll tell you!

Some people want to bring back the Smogon Council because it ensures that only qualified voters will vote and it's probably the quickest and easiest method next to our early ADV "Suspect Test". However, the Smogon Council is ten times worse then what we're doing now. Honestly, I would consider leaving Smogon if we brought that method back, as it completely undermines what makes Smogon University the competitive Pokemon community.

What makes the Smogon Suspect Test procedure great is that it uses a large, but not insanely large, pool of voters to make a democratic decision. At the risk of contradicting my last few paragraphs, Smogon should not be abandoning a democratic process anytime soon. I think it could use a little reformation, though. There are two kinds of voters in Smogon, "good voters" and "bad voters" (there are probably "okay voters" too but just go with it)

"Good voters" are those that make a decision based on: 1. if the Pokemon breaks the metagame and 2. are knowledgeable about the metagame to truly decide on a Pokemon's tiering.

"Ban voters" are those that do not vote based on the two aforementioned characteristics. Basically, if you vote Garchomp Uber because you like Flygon or you have no idea what you're voting about (I would guess Smogon's elite are more angry about the second), then you're a "bad voter". Otherwise, you're probably "good".

Rating on PO doesn't really correlate to whether you're a good voter or not. If you're at 1600 but only because you abuse broken shit and vote the broken shit OU to stay at 1600, you're a bad voter because of you're bias. If you're at 1300 but only can't succeed because of hax, RL interfering, etc. but have read a lot and put some thought into voting, then you would be a "good voter" regardless.

However, the first case isn't common. Smogon is a large community, but not insanely large. Most people who can consistently get above 1500 are pretty well known around here, and anyone who can get to 1600 is probably a multi-badged "famous" battler, so we don't need to worry about crazy-high ranked bad voters. However, quite a few good players didn't feel like laddering or didn't have PO access and didn't vote because of it while some noob who lucked out to 1450 will be getting their spot. That's the big problem with everything.

So we get to the meat and potatoes of all this tl;dr I'm posting at 3:00 in the morning. I've been implying throughout this post that we need upper and lower reqs, and we do. I've implied that too much objectivity is bad, and it is. I think what could be good for Smogon is very high upper reqs, pretty low lower reqs, and a paragraph system.

Upper reqs are to distinguish players who are exceptionally skilled at Pokemon and could make an informed decision with little effort. These people wouldn't need to worry about personal bias because they kick ass at Pokemon and would do fine whether the Suspects got banned or not. I would think a number like 1525 could suffice here.

Lower reqs, which most people would be voting with, would distinguish players that might have the ability to make an informed decision and are at least somewhat skilled at the current metagame. Basically, it promotes democracy in Smogon and makes sure only the "good voters" vote. These members would submit paragraphs (paragraphs, not sentences) detailing why each Suspect is or is not broken. Whoever reviews the paragraphs would look for if the person is voting for the good of the OU tier or for the good of their own team and would get or be denied rights depending. A number like 1375 or something could suffice as lower reqs, as only a small degree of competency at pokemon is needed to be good at Pokemon decision making.

tl;dr version

Well, there's my rant. This system seems to be unfavorable, Smogon Council is a giant load of horse shit, upper reqs should be really high, lower reqs should be low and need paragraphs.

I will now pause for user: Aeroblacktyl to vent the rage I assume he has towards me...

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P.S. Use Landorus w/HP Ice. Drizzle isn't broken and Flygon still sux.

P.P.S. ~80 voters is fine as long as they know what they're talking about. ~20-30 voters is fine as long as they know what they're talking about. We need to fix quality of voters, not quantity of voters.

@ below post. It's called reasoning. It's good for you.
 
Is choice scarf manectric with lightingrod a counter? since it can absorb and boost it's sp.at from any electric move that thundurus used then manectric can outspeed it use thunderbolt which will do between (264 and 312) and there is 20.51 percent to KO it (before stealth rocks damage) and after stealth rocks it will be a 100 percent KO
 

Matthew

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honestly Manetric sounds good but in the end even if it does get rid of Thundurus (which isn't even a 100% chance) then it's kind of dead-weight on the team. It'd be better if it had a way to boost its Special Attack through something like Nasty Plot but without that it's honestly just pretty bland.

But if you want to counter Thundurus that way I guess it works!(?)
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
If you're looking for a gimmick Thundurus check then scarf-Lanturn is better since it's bulkier and has an useful dual stab. I've used it on some rain dance team and it worked pretty well.
 
Why are people calling stuff like Manectric "counters" to Thundurus when you know they're on the team via Team Preview and can thus try and outpredict them with Focus Blast, which OHKO's 100% of the time with Stealth Rock, even without a Nasty Plot. A +2 HP Ice will OHKO even without Rocks. Even if you don't KO, they don't get the boost, so you can just switch in your bulky mon to deal with Choiced Manectric.

Also, Gastrodon can block Thunderbolt and survive a +2 Focus Blast with a specially defensive spread, letting you OHKO 100% of the time, without Stealth Rock, with an uninvested Ice Beam.
 
Manectric has a 28.2% chance of being OHKO'd on the switch-in by Timid LO Focus Blast (and 2HKO'dd by neutral Hidden Powers, yuck), which is pretty poor considering it relies on the Lightningrod boost to KO. So Lanturn seems to be the... trick.

EDIT: 19 second ninja'd.
 

shrang

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Why are we theorymoning stuff like Scarf Manectric when Jolteon exists? He doesn't even need a Scarf to outspeed Thundurus, meaning can he can use Specs, or LO, or even Leftovers.

Also, Calm Mind Raikou is also a fabulous Thundurus check, provided you don't haxed to hell with Nasty Plot + Thunder Wave. You can outspeed Thundurus and boost up to +1 to avoid being OHKOed by anything, then OHKO Thundurus with Thunderbolt in return.
 
So... wow. I'm glad to see Garchomp gone, I agree with almost everything Lolcat has posted, and... while I personally think Excadrill is broken as all hell, I agree that it shouldn't be running Jolly - as long as people keep running that, it will seem worse than it is due to missing some KOs it should get otherwise. (It's already fast enough to only be killed by priority in Sand, why the hell is Jolly needed?)

Anyways, re: Thundurus, I honestly don't have enough experience with it. The few times I remember coming up against it, I got murdered, though - hopefully, this testing period, I'll see a fair few and be able to accurately judge. If not.. well, I could try running one, but I'm honestly not a fan. I will if that's what's needed to understand the metagame, though.
As for people listing off Thundurus' checks/counters, how many are we looking at? This is a lot more problematic than, say, Excadrill or Stealth Rock, which have several answers. (Okay, so SR only has Rapid Spin, but a fair few things learn that) Thundurus has very specific checks, no general styles/attacks that get past him. Compare to, say, Excadrill vs. priority, Wobbuffet vs. Taunt, or SR vs. Rapid Spin. All have very vague general counters.
(Also, keep in mind that Thundurus can utterly destroy Quagsire/Gastrodon if it opts for Taunt over Sub, so even that's not a safe counter.)
Edit: SR also has Magic Coat/Bounce now, so... even more available there. Thundurus' checks/counters are way too limited, methinks. :/

Not expecting to hit reqs ever, since I only play while at work, but hopefully I'll be able to at least contribute in arguments, at least?
 
I don't really get why people are thinking up random checks for Thundurus. Just because something got put on suspect watch, doesn't mean the metagame has to now bend over backwards for it. Deal with it the way you've been doing for the past 4 rounds. Use Excadrill, Starmie, Jirachi, Azumarill, Chansey, scarfuser1234, whatever. These are all viable pokemon that have little trouble with making sure Thundurus doesn't ruin you. It shouldn't even get to the point where Thundurus is about to sweep your team with +2, as you can see Thundurus in Team Preview and therefore should know how to plan a route and stop it. It's not exactly a hard pokemon to take down.

Regardless of that, priority Thunder Wave is much better anyway, it allows to Thundurus to act similar to Tornadus with Rain Dance or Tailwind in that it can do something before it's killed off (unless you're facing an Excadrill). It also prevents you from being swept by random shit like scarf Rotom-W.
 
Gastrodon isn't "wrecked" by Taunt, its most common sets run 2 or more attacks, and if Thundurus tries to Taunt Gastrodon then it's getting OHKO'd by Ice Beam. In addition, even Thundurus' LO Grass Knot fails to OHKO specially defensive sets.
 

SJCrew

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Gastrodon is a check. It cannot OHKO Thundurus with Ice Beam after Rocks, not even assuming the standard set of 4th gen, which includes 44 Sp. Att EVs (44 EVs too many for something as defensively unimpressive as Gastrodon). Even under Rain, Ice Beam is the best option it has. Stone Edge operates off of a weaker attack stat, so the damage evens out to about the same. Defensive Gastrodon is incapable of OHKOing Thundurus.

On the other hand, the calc for a +2 Focus Blast is not pretty. If Thundurus can even get one hit in, it can easily follow up with HP Ice for the KO. Even two consecutive Focus Blasts from Leftovers variants can KO, and they're harder to wear down throughout the course of the match because of, well, Leftovers.

Thundurus in Team Preview and therefore should know how to plan a route and stop it. It's not exactly a hard pokemon to take down.
It is a hard Pokemon to take down. Team viewing mechanics do not automatically make your prediction perfect and Thundurus somehow suddenly have more counters. Thundurus users are aware of what you could be using to check it too. While you're planning a route to stop me, I am planning a route to sweep you. Even when I take the offensive just tossing around attacks, all of your vaguely listed checks are at risk. These types of arguments mean nothing.
 
My bad, calcs for Ice Beam were messed up. But then again, relying on two consecutive Focus Blasts is never something you should be doing :P
 
Gastrodon, in fact, is a very good pokemon against rain teams. It is immune to electric and gets a free spatk boost from water attacks via storm drain... In return it has an excellent dual stab and criple other threats with burn from scald and toxic, in addition to having recover to heal off any damage.
 
In a precedent team i've run a Recover+3attack Gastrodon. He works extremely well, the only thing that cripple him is toxic and obviusly the physical attack.
That's a real good pokes.
 
I don't think anything else should be banned. We shouldn't ban a Pokemon just because it is too good. The purpose of banning is to ban Pokemon that are unfair and unhealthy to the metagame.
Pokemon like Excadrill, for example, may seem broken with its great ability and high attack stat, but it is counterable and doesn't make the metagame any less fun.
Thundurus, too, is easily counterable for me. I even used Thundurus and he actually got replaced because he died so quickly.
Heck, even Garchomp IMO should not have been banned. Sure, the whole Sand Veil hax could be frustrating, but hasn't Pokemon always been partly luck? Not all moves have 100% accuracy, many moves have a chance of additional effects appearing, etc.

This is just my opinion but I don;t think we should just ban a Pokemon for being too good.
 
well, im kinda new around here, and i saw the suspect round 4, and i got to say a couple of things:first, i see no reason why they made a vote for banning excadrill, latios, deoxys-S and latios, and for garchomp im glade he's being banned, i really hate this guy =].

anyway, back to thundurus,excadrill,latios and deoxys-S, i see no reason to ban them, at all. why? to show you, i will write the best way i know, in order to counter each pokemon who was a suspect.

starting of with excadrill- his typing makes him varneble to priority fighting and water attacks such as mach punch and aqua jet, which are used by azumarrill, conkeldurr, infarnape and even lucario with its vacumm wave can beat it.
secend, physical walls like hipodown, gliscor, unware quagsire,skarmory and my favorite wall, evolite dusclops can take him easlly even if he sets up one swords dance.

as for latios, most of the people around here know the answer- blissey, a pink nightmare for any special attacker, and latios of course is no exception. besides blissey, pokemons like sp.defensive jirachi, ferrothron and defensive steel types can switch into latios draco meteor and stop him or revenge kill it [for example, ferrothorn can thander wave it while scarf jirachi can kill it with ice punch].
finally, there are the well known pursuiters like Ttar and scizor who can trap it with pursuit or kill it with a STAB crunch or STAB u-turn].

deoxys-S has no reasons to be a suspect because he can only function as a lead or an anti lead and its thin defenses are below avarage so therefore, any priority [with the exception of mach punch of course] can kill it.

and finally thundurus, one of my fav pokemons that allmost got into the ubers which i think in my opinion, that its completly unfair. fast pokemons or scarfed pokemons can revenge kill it like starmie, weavile, mamoswine, azumarril and lucario's extreemsped.
of course there is also the pink blob blissey who can stop the nasty plot set and there is swampert and quagsire, who can phaze it or slowly kill it [oh yea, did i mention stealth rock?].


so thats it, im not a very big expert at the metagame, but i dont think these guys deserve to be suspects.
and of course, im not here to hurt anybody, so there you go =]

[oh yea, i listed the counters not because i thought you didnt knew, which is totally not true, i just tried to prove my point =]
 

PK Gaming

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How did you guys forget about Specially Defensive Quagsire? Don't get me wrong, Gastrodon's a cool pokemon but when it comes to countering Thundurus look no further than Quagsire, its the best Thundurus counter in the game, bar none.

(Yes, Grass Knot obliterates it, no Grass Knot isn't remotely common.)
 
Ok please. Last round they didn't reset the ratings, so therefore more people had higher scores. They reset it this round. There should actually be less people at 1400 thanks to this and the fact you can't just park the account.

Stop being a bunch of bitches.
 
Then, Thundurus have only a real solid counter (excluding scarfers) the rest of the metagame is OHKO or 2HKO by him, that's not a real portrait of a playable pokemon.

I'll not face the weathers war argument (it was discuss and re-discuss), i'll leaving it to the voters (hoping to be in) and i hope you're ok with that.
 

alexwolf

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How did you guys forget about Specially Defensive Quagsire? Don't get me wrong, Gastrodon's a cool pokemon but when it comes to countering Thundurus look no further than Quagsire, its the best Thundurus counter in the game, bar none.

(Yes, Grass Knot obliterates it, no Grass Knot isn't remotely common.)
Yes Specially defensive Quagsire exists but is it really worth to spend evs on 95/65 defences???
Especially when the most common special attacker in the tier eats him for breakfast(Latios).The same goes for Reuniclus.And for Rotom-W.
So even if he counters Thundurus i don't see any reason to run a specially defensive set when the most prominent special attackers can still 2hko(or even 1hko in latios's case)him and he loses his marginally better physical bulk!
For me Quagsire is only worth it if he is physically defensive...
 
Yes Specially defensive Quagsire exists but is it really worth to spend evs on 95/65 defences???
Especially when the most common special attacker in the tier eats him for breakfast(Latios).The same goes for Reuniclus.And for Rotom-W.
So even if he counters Thundurus i don't see any reason to run a specially defensive set when the most prominent special attackers can still 2hko(or even 1hko in latios's case)him and he loses his marginally better physical bulk!
For me Quagsire is only worth it if he is physically defensive...
That is exactly why I use Gastrodon over Quagsire, Gastrodon is much more specially bulky than Quagsire and can also fare pretty well against the special attackers in OU. It can check latios pretty well also, as it can heal off damage from DM and respond with toxic or burn from scald.
 
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