np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[blarajan]

Then use Swords Dance...the only good Terrakion isn't Double Dance.

 

[Raikaria]

To be completely frank, if people are seriously starting to suggest runing HP Ice on EVERY PHYSICAL SWEEPER, then it's getting to the point of rediculous.

If Gliscor is making people say *Stick HP Ice on physical sweepers with low Sp.Attack* then it's getting to the stage where Gliscor would be considered suspect.

Hell, Garchomp has a x4 weakness to Ice, but you didn't see people suggesting 'Run HP Ice on Meinshao'.

Note, I'm not saying Gliscor is suspect, because there are loads of ways around it.

I'm making a point about how laughable it is that people are suggesting to run HP Ice on specially inept physical attackers, JUST for Gliscor.

I mean, you don't see everything that can't get past Ferrothorn or Tyranitar running HP Fighting, do you? [Sure, Psychic types with small movepools like Espeon might, but outside of that...]


Honestly, if you don't want your physical attacker to not be walled by Gliscor... don't use that physical attacker. Use something like Infernape, which can rip Gliscor, Tyranitar Jirachi and Ferrothorn new behinds.

Not to mention Rotom-W isn't safe from Close Combat [Dosen't appreciate Grass Knot either]


It's not like Infernape didn't get 1001 new toys anyway. He got Work Up, making his mixed sets even more insane, especially with the switches he forces. And Acrobatics, although that requires the loss of LO, you can slaughter Fighting-Types. And Flame Charge, use it on a swith you forced, ad you have a Super-Speed Ape that Thunderus is slower than [Unless it uses Thunder Wave/Taunt]

Its just too bad his Troll 108 Speed is trolled by the Genies. But I'd like to see them fearlessly switch into Infernape anyway, who may be carrying HP Ice, and will be carying a Fire STAB.


Hell, if you want to be a complete troll you can use things like Fake Out, Stealth Rock, or even MAGIC COAT [Thunderus does not approve of Thunder Waves and Taunts being thrown back at him] Of course, 4MMS probobly means we'll never see Magic Coat Infernape... especially as he's frail enough to be killed by Thunderbolt anyway.

----

Besides, from my personal experiance, Terrakion dosen't really sweep. He dies to Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet. He's suspectable to all status, and needs 2 turns to really get into a sweeping position, in which case, he's limited to QuakeEdge/STAB combo. He's also weak to Ground, Water, Grass, Steel, Fighting, and Psychic. And dosen't resist Dragon or Electric.

You know, those being amoung the most common attacking types.

Honestly... if you let Terrakion get a Rock Polish and Swords Dance, without crippling it, you DESERVE to be swept.

 

[Stratos]

As one who has used a naive gyarados with fire blast on a sun team before for the purpose of killing ferrothorn (which it fails to do), I can say with certainty that abusing his special moveset isn't worth it. The surprise factor is useless when the surprise doesn't accomplish anything. If you want a physical attacker who can get away with using special attacks, use Cranidos in LC or Sheer Force Tauros.

As mentioned, conkeldurr is a good partner for gyarados. So is virizion and bronzong.

Special gyarados reminds me of a quote that used to be in a sig:

"(paraphrased) The element of surprise means nothing if the surprise isn't effective. Yes, I could sneak up on you and throw cottonballs at you, but what would happen? You would simply take a couple cottonballs to the face and then slug me unconscious. [Special Gyarados] (the original was Offensive Whimsicott) is that cottonball."

 

[blarajan]

@Raikaria. Running HP Ice on Mienshao is standard. That aside, your logic isn't making that much sense. If Gliscor is a Pokemon's one true counter, and you can kill it with a simple moveset adjustment, why is that a problem? Terrakion can solidly 2hko a Gliscor with HP Ice, and outside of its CombatEdge coverage, it doesn't really need that third moveslot. Many Rotom-W run HP Fire to beat Ferrothorn. Often Ninetales runs HP Fighting for Tyranitar (special case but I'm running out of ideas). If you have a stat and a move option/slot that can take out the one Pokemon hindering you from showing your potential or from letting your team get the advantage, that's something you should take into consideration. While Ice Beam on Golurk is a bit ridiculous, HP Ice on Terrakion or Mienshao or something to beat Gliscor is perfectly reasonable.

Gliscor walls a huge chunk of the metagame. Without Gliscor checking things, many things would be broken. Nominating it for suspect would allow those things to run rampant. But in your individual team, if Gliscor is walling too much, then arbitrary HP Ice to catch it off guard...is intelligent! Surprise movesets and tactics like that to beat your usual checks or counters is generally a good thing. It's not as ridiculous as you're making it seem.

And Infernape's cool, I like him. Work Up/Flame Charge/Acrobatics/Magic Coat aren't the best options though, due to his frailty.

 

[dori]

Using a low attack stat to abuse something's 4x weakness has always been common practice. We can start all the way back to RBY, where Persian used Bubblebeam to get past Golem and Rhyperior, or Thunder to get past Cloyster. We move on to GSC where things like Machamp and Snorlax used Fire Blast to get around Skarmory and Forretress who were annoying the shit out of it. Then in RS we have Metagross using HPGrass to get around Swampert, or HPFire to get around Forretress or even Thunderpunch for Skarmory. This was also when Gengar was routinely using Focus Punch to get around Blissey. In DP, Mamoswine was using Blizzard to get past Skarmory, and earlier in this thread on this page, we even see mention of Fire Blasting Gyaradoses.

So what's wrong with Terrakion using HPIce? It's common knowledge the only necessities you have are Stone Edge and Close Combat. Everything else is a luxury. It makes me question your competence in Pokemon by your disbelief that people allow Terrakion to get +2/+2. Terrakion has both moves and uses one that is relative to the battle. If it faces a stall team, most likely Terrakion will always be faster and can just plow through with Swords Dance. If it's a fast offensive team, like the generic Rain team, it can usually devastate with just Rock Polish and Life Orb. Having both of these options are LUXURIES. It doesn't need both to succeed. It also has 180 min Special Attack if you feel so ashamed of using 'laughable' stats.

Don't be ignorant, Raikaria.

 

[Valo525]

I'll just throw in Terrakion's ability, which means that if it comes in on a dark-type attack it gets +1 attack and that also helps it sweep.

 

[November Blue]

Not to mention Rotom-W isn't safe from Close Combat [Dosen't appreciate Grass Knot either]

Rotom-W wishes that more people would run grass knot. At 20 base power it's a 4x resist, not a weakness.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Ok I did do some battle testing, and Gyarados fire blast is not "that cottonball". He routinely KO'd all of the switch ins that thought they could take him. Skarmory, Scizor, and Ferrothorn all died. Ferro's that are specially defensive are a 2HKO I believe, but after the switch in he took a hit and then died. Actually my Gyarados set has been doing pretty well. The only move worth putting in Fire Blasts spot would be Earthquake, as I have bounce and waterfall already. But he honestly is good. And it really isnt that ridiculous to run moves on a mon that are designed to specifically get past their counters. In gyara's case, Ferrothorn is the #1 OU pokemon. So I'm seeing ferrothorn everywhere, and if I don't adapt to the metagame, my Gyarados will be hard stopped by him every time. Same thing with Skarmory and Scizor to an extent.

On another subject, how many dragon dances does Gyarados need to be able to KO most common gliscor sets with waterfall? WIth no DD's my gyara set is at 257 att.

 

[alphatron]

Infernape doesn't learn magic coat guys. Learn to play the real game every now and then instead of looking at serebii's movelists lol.

Said it before. Balloon terrakion kills Gliscor. Swords dance on the switch. Stone edge it twice. Hp ice terrakion is worse than hp fire forretress guys. Just run a special attacker who can ko gliscor. Base 70 spA is horrible, and does nothing when your terrakion now sucks.

 

[alphatron]

Skarm isn't ko'd by gyara fire blast at all.

 

[Nkululeko]

Ok I've read a couple of posts here and I'm confused. This is Smogon, the best resource for competitive pokemon battling on the internet. Why are people so confused as to how to deal with Gliscor? Does nobody run special sweepers anymore? You don't need to make every Physical sweeper mixed just to take down one pokemon. If Gliscor is that much of an annoyance than let me suggest you pack a Gliscor counter instead of nerfing your Terrakion or Mienshao's best offensive stat just to take it out. If you really want a Terrakion to sweep, then shouldn't you plan take care of it's counters first?

Edit: Ninja'd by alphatron. And btw, @alphatron, thank you.

 

[November Blue]

On another subject, how many dragon dances does Gyarados need to be able to KO most common gliscor sets with waterfall? WIth no DD's my gyara set is at 257 att.

Four.

Gyarados @ Leftovers using Waterfall on 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Gliscor does 97%ish minimum. You can raise Gyara's Attack to 261 for a guaranteed KO.

 

[blarajan]

Ok I've read a couple of posts here and I'm confused. This is Smogon, the best resource for competitive pokemon battling on the internet. Why are people so confused as to how to deal with Gliscor? Does nobody run special sweepers anymore? You don't need to make every Physical sweeper mixed just to take down one pokemon. If Gliscor is that much of an annoyance than let me suggest you pack a Gliscor counter instead of nerfing your Terrakion or Mienshao's best offensive stat just to take it out. If you really want a Terrakion to sweep, then shouldn't you plan take care of it's counters first?

One. Nobody's confused as to how to handle Gliscor. You can't just "throw in a Gliscor counter" on every team. In many instances, that will offset its synergy or purpose. What you CAN do is use an unexpected move to beat Gliscor. Gliscor always switches in on Terrakion. Terrakion uses HP Ice and beats Gliscor. It's not a terrible concept.

Two. Nobody's nerfing their best offensive stat...Generally when someone wants to go mixed they nerf a defensive stat. In Terrakion's case, that's not necessary as - Spa nature still solidly 2hkoes Gliscor with Poison Heal.

Three. @you and alphatron: Mienshao standard has HP Ice because of its very usable special attack stat.

Four. Neither of you have actually made any sense. A well played Gliscor will never stay in on a special sweeper who will obviously kill it. The purpose of Gliscor is to wall physical threats. Thus, Gliscor switches in on a physical threat (Terrakion). If instead it's a special threat (Reuniclus, Rotom-W, etc), Gliscor doesn't switch in. Its purpose is to wall the physical sweepers without super effective STAB moves. It does that job very well and generally switches in on Terrakion, accordingly. That's when you take it by surprise!

Capitalizing on the general use of a Pokemon to net a surprise KO to aid your way to a sweep isn't bad. In Terrakion's case especially, it doesn't need a third attacking option. One boosting move, its STAB moves, HP Ice to kill the one Pokemon that really beats it. What's the problem?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

To be completely frank, if people are seriously starting to suggest runing HP Ice on EVERY PHYSICAL SWEEPER, then it's getting to the point of rediculous.

If Gliscor is making people say *Stick HP Ice on physical sweepers with low Sp.Attack* then it's getting to the stage where Gliscor would be considered suspect.

Swampert in ADV.

Note, I'm not saying Gliscor is suspect, because there are loads of ways around it.

I'm making a point about how laughable it is that people are suggesting to run HP Ice on specially inept physical attackers, JUST for Gliscor.

I mean, you don't see everything that can't get past Ferrothorn or Tyranitar running HP Fighting, do you? [Sure, Psychic types with small movepools like Espeon might, but outside of that...]

Honestly, if you don't want your physical attacker to not be walled by Gliscor... don't use that physical attacker. Use something like Infernape, which can rip Gliscor, Tyranitar Jirachi and Ferrothorn new behinds.

Huh waitwaitwait, what. You complain Gliscor would be a suspect because it makes random shit use HP Ice to be viable and then say Gliscor isn't suspect and that we... shouldn't use those things to begin with?

If HP Ice is what makes a specially inept physical sweeper do its work, then why not use it? It's not ridiculous, it works.

 

[BurningMan]

The problem is that Gliscor is a pain to take out by switching in a special sweeper it can switch in for free since its neutral to stealth rock, immune to spikes and gets double lefties recovery while being immune to status. Thanks to all of this Gliscor is easy to keep alive for the whole match if you want it to. If you want to kill it its best to bait it out and cripple it with an unsuspected HP Ice.
If you best way to deal with it is switch in Latios or Rotom-W you won't get it down, because it will simply switch out without penalty.

 

[alphatron]

I Mienshao can get away with using hp ice because its special attack stat is actually usable. Whenever a primary physical attacker uses a special attack, its because their SpA is actually good.

This doesn't work for Terra. Sure, you 2HKO one counter. Now you lose to everything else. Hp fighting cresselia and hp ice excadrill have already shown that they don't work. Hp ice terrakion doesn't even ko dugtrio. If it works for you though...

I mean, I use solarbeam on my rapidash afterall. 2hkos jelli.

 

[blarajan]

Okay. What else do you lose to? What do most teams carry to check terrakion that isn't gliscor? Please ad some substance to your statements. Why does terrakion NEED something else? And why would you hp ice a dugtrio when a stab close combat hits much harder? Most common terrakion check: gliscor. Dead glicor ==> terrakion sweep. Killing gliscor made easy.

Ps when trying to be funny when attempting to undermine someone's argument with a silly example, please atleast have it paralel. Rapidash has a super effectve wild charge to hit jellicent on its much weaker defense stat, and is killed by jellicent scald on the charge turns.

 

[Woodchuck]

But you don't "lose to everything" else. Where is that even coming from? You aren't changing your nature and you aren't moving any EVs from Attack to Special Attack. You also aren't even sacrificing that much coverage as Terrakion already has all of the coverage it needs with HP Ice. (also, if you're suggesting using SD and Balloon to beat Gliscor, then expecting two Stone Edges to actually hit to get the KO makes me go -___________-)
SD / Stone Edge / Close Combat / HP Ice wrecks a ton of defensive cores, so I don't see why you "lose to everything else"
and why the hell do you care about using HP Ice on Dugtrio when you KO with Close Combat >.>

I'm sorry, alphatron, but many of your arguments aren't really relevant -- Excadrill's SpA stat is awful and it needs the coverage in any case, Cresselia is RU, and Rapidash is... lol
not to be offensive but I wish you'd come up with points that are actually more relevant to OU. I could say Swords Dance sucks because Anorith sucks with it, but that doesn't mean all users of SD suck. The same goes for taking advantage of Hidden Power.

EDIT: fffffs ninja'd by blarajan

 

[alphatron]

Actually I was being serious. Scald doesn't ohko under sunlight and solarbeam also hits rotom-W.

I'd run X-scissor for the increasingly common celebi, the lati@s and hydrie switch in, bold reuniclus, slowbro, rare tangrowth, bulky shaymin, and a few others I might be missing.

Then I still beat Gliscor with balloon and +2 stone edge twice in a row. And I'm not running friggin hp ice to do it.

hp ice against trio was to show how weak the attack is. And I mention the balloon because it...works.

 

[Eggbert]

Terrakion's CB set can pretty much weaken its own counter as Gliscor can't switch into stone edge more than once with SR (and it still has a chance to be 2HKOd the first time). HP ice has no space on the double booster sets and is useless on the CB set. Stone edge hits twice more often then it doesn't and relying on a 36% chance of it missing isn't good for you.

Rotom-w is very good against Gliscor because you can volt switch their Ferro / Lati@s switch so eventually their Gliscor will be a liability.

 

[blarajan]

Yeah okay so one) your balloon hasn't been popped two) you hit stone miss twice in a row (64% chance) three) if gliscor has protect, it avoids the 2hko.

Anyways, Stone Edge hits Latios, Close Combat hits Hydreigon, X-Scissor does laughable damage against Slowbro AND Tangrowth (who is not rare at all), nobody uses Shaymin but is still hit hard by Close Combat.

Especially at +2, which you've been assuming the entire time. Oh PS I can afford to use Life Orb, outdamaging your set easily. +2 Stone Edge/Close Combat will hit all of those things. You're going to lose to Slowbro and Tangrowth no matter what you do. It's super effective, but doesn't do shit.


Edit: @Eggbert. Duh it's not on double booster or CB. It's on a Rock Polish or Swords Dance/Close Combat/Stone Edge/HP Ice set. CB Terrakion can weaken Gliscor, yes, but then gets killed by EQ or anything faster. CB is a great set, but I'm just offering an alternative that can and DOES work.

 

[alphatron]

Saying that an attack will miss isn't a counter arguement in the case of stone edge. You get to +2 the same way any sweeper does. The balloon isn't broken yet because you're a good player.

I use the balloon with double dance for setting up rp on exca. Like I said, I was being serious. I got to early 1400s with rapidash. If hp ice terra works for you, go ahead.

 

[Nkululeko]

Gliscor walls a huge chunk of the metagame. Without Gliscor checking things, many things would be broken. Nominating it for suspect would allow those things to run rampant. But in your individual team, if Gliscor is walling too much, then arbitrary HP Ice to catch it off guard...is intelligent! Surprise movesets and tactics like that to beat your usual checks or counters is generally a good thing. It's not as ridiculous as you're making it seem.

For the record, the ridiculous part of running HP Ice on every physical attacker is that your over-specializing a pokemon to take out one that is easily handled by special or mixed sweepers. I never doubted Mienshao running a HP, it's special attack stat is good. I argued against Terrakion, whose Sp Atk isn't useful outside of taking out Gliscor, which it can do physically and should have teammates who can handle it.

And Infernape's cool, I like him. Work Up/Flame Charge/Acrobatics/Magic Coat aren't the best options though, due to his frailty.

Acrobatics isn't too bad of an idea, but I will agree that Infernape has better options.

One. Nobody's confused as to how to handle Gliscor. You can't just "throw in a Gliscor counter" on every team. In many instances, that will offset its synergy or purpose. What you CAN do is use an unexpected move to beat Gliscor. Gliscor always switches in on Terrakion. Terrakion uses HP Ice and beats Gliscor. It's not a terrible concept.

If one of your pokemon, especially a sweeper, is walled by Gliscor, then it's in your best interests to prepare to check/counter that Gliscor. That's called good team building. You can use a Dunsparce HP Ice to attack Gliscor, doesn't mean you should if you want to win. And the unexpected move is only a good concept if it has uses outside of attacking one pokemon. Otherwise it's taking away from that pokemon's potential to sweep, which is why you should leave countering Gliscor to Gliscor counters.

Two. Nobody's nerfing their best offensive stat...Generally when someone wants to go mixed they nerf a defensive stat. In Terrakion's case, that's not necessary as - Spa nature still solidly 2hkoes Gliscor with Poison Heal.

Taking away from Terrakino's physical moveset is nerfing it's physical attacking power by removing what it can do with it's physical attack. When you take away something that could let Terrakion sweep a team, like X-Scissor or Stone Edge, you leave Terrakion open to pokemon who would normally not be an issue and in Terrakion's case unless you predict correctly (red flag for a bad counter) you're forced out unless you invest in Sp Atk or carry Balloon (which uses it's superior Physical attack and gives it that extra opportunity to sweep more consistently than HP Ice)

Three. @you and alphatron: Mienshao standard has HP Ice because of its very usable special attack stat.

I addressed this issue before. This is irrelevant since we were discussing Terrakion.

Four. Neither of you have actually made any sense. A well played Gliscor will never stay in on a special sweeper who will obviously kill it.

If we're not making sense it's because you're not getting the concept of a pokemon battle. It's 6 on 6. Meaning that if a Physical Terrakion has issues with one pokemon, one of it's 5 teammates should be able to handle it if you're good at team-building. If you force out or KO Gliscor, then Terrakion has an easier time sweeping. That's called synergy. If you want to use Terrakion, why do you refuse to support Terrakion offensively?

The purpose of Gliscor is to wall physical threats. Thus, Gliscor switches in on a physical threat (Terrakion). If instead it's a special threat (Reuniclus, Rotom-W, etc), Gliscor doesn't switch in.

You're assuming one out of many possible outcomes in a battle. If Gliscor comes in, and Terrakion's walled, you can counter Gliscor with a strong special sweeper and grab a boost on the switch or dent something coming in and make sure if Terrakion needs to come in again, it can sweep easily.

Its purpose is to wall the physical sweepers without super effective STAB moves. It does that job very well and generally switches in on Terrakion, accordingly. That's when you take it by surprise!

Read Pwnemon's reference to surprise factors. It's only a good surprise if it threatens anything else, otherwise you're over-specializing a pokemon when it's teammates should be supporting it for that purpose.

Capitalizing on the general use of a Pokemon to net a surprise KO to aid your way to a sweep isn't bad.

Never said bad, I pointed out that Terrakion has better things to do.

In Terrakion's case especially, it doesn't need a third attacking option. One boosting move, its STAB moves, HP Ice to kill the one Pokemon that really beats it. What's the problem?

You leave yourself open to things that wouldn't normally be an issue, like Reuniclus.

Huh waitwaitwait, what. You complain Gliscor would be a suspect because it makes random shit use HP Ice to be viable and then say Gliscor isn't suspect and that we... shouldn't use those things to begin with?

If HP Ice is what makes a specially inept physical sweeper do its work, then why not use it? It's not ridiculous, it works.

It leaves you open to things that would normally not be an issue when the original issue can be remedied by good team building. The idea that every physical sweeper is tested with Hp Ice undermines the fact that there are pokemon who can handle the single pokemon that beats it. When you use pokemon that can counter each others counters you create team synergy, which apparently is becoming outdated.

Edit: Reuniclius. That is all. If you're ok with that then fine, just remember that you're leaving yourself open unnecessarily.

 

[blarajan]

Congrats on the dash, then. If a Gliscor has protect>taunt, you lose. And in the case of those other Pokemon, you don't need X-Scissor to hit them hard. You have failed to mention anything that you lose to by carrying HP Ice, except maybe Celebi (hate that fucking pixie).

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Skarm isn't ko'd by gyara fire blast at all.

Um.. yes it is. With the set I run it's a 2-3HKO, and that's only if the skarmory has max hp, max spdef, and a +spdef nature.

edit: Which is a solid 2HKO if you hit him on the switch with waterfall, and spikes, provided you've gotten a DD already.
(the kind of situation the opponent would send a skarm in anyway for)