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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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in the sun...no comment.
though, seriously, sun starmie should still have a water attack, imo.
HP Fire+Sun... I'm with blarajan, Starmie could use a little insurance against other weathers should 9Tails go down.
Water moves definitely shouldnt be used on Starmie in sun. There's no reason to drop Bolt-Beam, it's too good of coverage to pass up. HP Fire destroys Ferrothorn and Scizor; Starmie hits other water types with thunderbolt anyway, so if for some reason, sun isn't up, it shouldnt be too big of a deal.
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Heh, that reminds me. Under sunlight, starmie is setup fodder for volcorona. If you have space for it power gem puts an immeadiate end to that potential threat. Really specific, but it works if you need it to. Much like the few volcorona I've seen who ran psychic just for my terrakion...
Could someone please explain SubRona to me (assuming lefties dual stab + quiver i guess)? What are you specifically "fishing for flame body hax against" and how does that help it sweep? I'm not doubting its effectiveness, moth on it's own is pretty antimeta, but I just don't get the logic behind that set. Does it help ease prediction against teams that rely on sneaking in excadrill/scarfer to beat it before it gets too many dances? I guess a sub could be helpful for stopping priority revenges from cbnite and azu too... Some help would be appreciated :)
It makes it so Excadrill can't swap in and revenge you. If you sub on something like Celebi, you pretty much get a shot at their revenger since Volcarona can usually OHKO them from behind sub. Teams in general are very Volcarona weak besides revenging it if they don't have Terrakion or Dragonite. (Bold volca can even beat nite if it switches in on a QD and isn't packing CB outrage, which it can even survive at full and 2HKO back)
Yea that's another plus but ChestoRest does that too. What niche does sub have that the other standards can't offer?
Edit@eggbert: Yeah I was thinking that. I just didn't know that was the main purpose. It makes sense though like I said a lot of people rely on sneaking in exca to beat it
Actually, everything I listed can tank a +2 Fire Blast under the Sun after SR, if they use specially defensive sets. None of them ever do, so my point is sorta moot, but j/s.
As for the Rapid Spinners thing, you're right that we seem to be lacking. In OU, we have Starmie and Exca for Offensive Spinners, then Forry and Tenta for Defensive Spinners, and that's about it. No, I'm not counting Hitmontop or Donphan, simply because, well, they work, but they're just not the best imo.
What do you guys think about Cloyster as an Offensive Spinner (assuming White Herb)? It could replace Water-STAB, I guess. Gengar can't handle a +2 Speed Cloyster at all. +2 Rock Blast only 2HKOes Jellicent, so it could still burn you, though. It doesn't look as effective at eliminating spinblockers as Exca is, but it would be less expected and could work. The Water-STAB always seemed superfluous to me anyway.
Well, it does have a surprise value, but one miss step means game over.
Also, Excadrill still outspeeds it even after Shell Smash, but seeing as it won't survive a Icicle Spear attack, that hardly seems an issue.
Great idea, but make sure you don't screw up. Make your opponent think you're just another, regular Cloyster and hope that he doesn't have Unaware Quagsire.
Also, Excadrill still outspeeds it even after Shell Smash, but seeing as it won't survive a Icicle Spear attack, that hardly seems an issue.
Great idea, but make sure you don't screw up. Make your opponent think you're just another, regular Cloyster and hope that he doesn't have Unaware Quagsire.
Reposting something I've said before:
"Bold Cloyster, yes Bold, can OHKO Max HP Multiscale Dragonite with Icicle Spear with no Attack investment & survive a +1 Outrage (58.6% - 69.4%) with no Defense investment. That's right, 4th Gen Cloyster; Bold, 252/0/0/0/252/4 Cloyster completely counters the #1 boosting Dragon around, doesn't even need to run so much as a neutral attacking nature. Haxorus is the same story, it just has to run a neutral nature to OHKO it. Too bad most people don't know this as they're too busy trying to find a Pokemon to revenge them with like Ditto instead of completely countering it so you don't lose a Pokemon in the first place."
That's talking about 252 HP/252 Sp.Def/4 Spd Cloyster. You can give up your Sp.Def EVs & and invest it in Speed & Attack & still laugh at every +1 physical Dragon. Offensive Cloyster is a damn good Rapid Spinner. Not dead weight at all even if it can't use Shell Smash for whatever reason.
"Bold Cloyster, yes Bold, can OHKO Max HP Multiscale Dragonite with Icicle Spear with no Attack investment & survive a +1 Outrage (58.6% - 69.4%) with no Defense investment. That's right, 4th Gen Cloyster; Bold, 252/0/0/0/252/4 Cloyster completely counters the #1 boosting Dragon around, doesn't even need to run so much as a neutral attacking nature. Haxorus is the same story, it just has to run a neutral nature to OHKO it. Too bad most people don't know this as they're too busy trying to find a Pokemon to revenge them with like Ditto instead of completely countering it so you don't lose a Pokemon in the first place."
That's talking about 252 HP/252 Sp.Def/4 Spd Cloyster. You can give up your Sp.Def EVs & and invest it in Speed & Attack & still laugh at every +1 physical Dragon. Offensive Cloyster is a damn good Rapid Spinner. Not dead weight at all even if it can't use Shell Smash for whatever reason.
Cryogonal can actually function pretty well as a spinner on a hail team, despite it's physical frailness. It has great Sp.Def and over-average speed and Sp.Atk, acces to Rapid Spin, Recover, Blizzard, Light Screen and Reflect, along with other utility moves. Overall, it's a good rapid spinner, but just don't switch him in on physical attacks.
I think the main reason for running sub on Volcarona is to remove checks. Excadrill can revenge it with Rock Slide, but not while it has a sub up. Terrakion might survive one Bug Buzz or Fiery Dance and threaten with Stone Edge, but it can't survive two hits.
It's also bloody difficult to compromise lategame. If you have no good answers to it, it becomes nigh impossible to damage without taking heavy damage. It's like SubCM Latias, but it can boost it's speed.
It's also bloody difficult to compromise lategame. If you have no good answers to it, it becomes nigh impossible to damage without taking heavy damage. It's like SubCM Latias, but it can boost it's speed.
Volcarona is dangerous because it sets up everywhere if you give it the smallest chance. It can even set up on psychic Reuniclus and Latias if it switches in while they boost and then counter sweep then since it will be faster after a boost.
I have used Cloyster as a rapid spinner when Garchomp was still around. Impish. It could take 50% from a 2+ EQ and KO through the sub. Cloyster had two problems: It itself was incredibly hazards weak meaning something like Forry can win in a hazards war. It also couldn't break spinblockers like Jellicent, and Gengar could probably OHKO it with thundershock.
I have used Cloyster as a rapid spinner when Garchomp was still around. Impish. It could take 50% from a 2+ EQ and KO through the sub. Cloyster had two problems: It itself was incredibly hazards weak meaning something like Forry can win in a hazards war. It also couldn't break spinblockers like Jellicent, and Gengar could probably OHKO it with thundershock.
Cloyster is prolly better left as a Shell Smasher
I've been using Kabutops on my Sun-team with some relative success as a rapid spinner.
Kabutops @ Air Balloon
Swift Swim
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Waterfall
- Rapid Spin
Jolly
252 Spe / The rest go where you like.
It has an awesome 4x resist to fire while resisting Flying and Ice-type attacks as well. These resistances are incredibly useful on Sun-based teams that have weaknesses in those specific areas. Kabutops is not dead weight at all offensively (Base 115 Atk). It can OHKO Tyranitar and give Hippodown something to fear. Politoed fears showing its face in general due to Swift Swim, which can allow Kabutops to switch in, freely spin, and threaten with boosted Waterfall. The EVs I gave allow Kabutops to tango with Heatran. When it comes in on Ninetales, Earth Power is coming, so it's essentially a free switch-in. Superpower will 2HKO all non-defensive variants. It definitely has its flaws, but overall, Kabutops is carrying more offensive weight than many other spinners.
Kabutops @ Air Balloon
Swift Swim
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Waterfall
- Rapid Spin
Jolly
252 Spe / The rest go where you like.
It has an awesome 4x resist to fire while resisting Flying and Ice-type attacks as well. These resistances are incredibly useful on Sun-based teams that have weaknesses in those specific areas. Kabutops is not dead weight at all offensively (Base 115 Atk). It can OHKO Tyranitar and give Hippodown something to fear. Politoed fears showing its face in general due to Swift Swim, which can allow Kabutops to switch in, freely spin, and threaten with boosted Waterfall. The EVs I gave allow Kabutops to tango with Heatran. When it comes in on Ninetales, Earth Power is coming, so it's essentially a free switch-in. Superpower will 2HKO all non-defensive variants. It definitely has its flaws, but overall, Kabutops is carrying more offensive weight than many other spinners.
^ Waterfall on a Sun team? You're barely going to scratch a Geodude with that.
What ever happened to cloyster? Every one used to think its over powered and cheap but now its just like lvl 1 aron :P
Its probably just misused. Most people go for life orb, while white herb is the superior item as it prevents cloyster from getting picked off by every physical priority. white herb can also help you get 2 shell smashes which could punch holes through most teams. To be fair, its still hanging around in OU and will probably be a pretty dominany pokemon in UU.
There's a lot of misuse of Cloyster, believe it or not.
I wasn't very happy with Smash Cloyster at first, but then I tried it out a month or two back because of Lee's way of using Cloyster. And wow, it worked. Sets up on physically defensive foes, and even after a defense drop, Bandless Scizor fails to do anything significant to Cloyster. No need for Life Orb, since Icicle Spear OHKOes Ferrothorn with Icicle Plate.
And yes, since this went unanswered, Donphan works wonderfully on Sunlight-based teams.
I wasn't very happy with Smash Cloyster at first, but then I tried it out a month or two back because of Lee's way of using Cloyster. And wow, it worked. Sets up on physically defensive foes, and even after a defense drop, Bandless Scizor fails to do anything significant to Cloyster. No need for Life Orb, since Icicle Spear OHKOes Ferrothorn with Icicle Plate.
And yes, since this went unanswered, Donphan works wonderfully on Sunlight-based teams.
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