Competitive Suicide

[SillySod]

So, before we get to the main thrust of debate I figure its worth introducing myself so you all know where I'm coming from, my playing style, and my weaknesses.

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I'm a relatively new player who never played any of the gameboy games. I was pointed this way by a friend as a fun little distraction but have stuck around because, hey why not, this pokemon thing is deep and suprisingly interesting. Naturally I dropped myself in at the deep end and having flailed for a bit I've now got a dragon based team that I'm very pleased with along with another couple of teams that are coming along nicely.

I am significantly more comfortable with aggressive sweeping and trading tactics than I am at trying to stall people out. I understand the basic concepts of stall but I know alot more about how to power through a poke than about coordinating a successful defence. I have difficulty constructing something watertight and this really shows when I attempt to stall.

Pokemon is all about momentum. How to gain momentum, how to abuse it, and how to throttle it and take it back by force. One of the most interesting aspects of the game is the way it uses momentum as a comeback mechanism - every time one of your pokemon dies you gain a hefty chunk of momentum and an opportunity to swing the game back in your favour (you get a free switch). Being able to recognise and control these shifts in momentum is, therefore, an important game skill.

Right now I am very interested in the potential that suicide moves can offer. A suicide move is useful because it can give you a big chunk of momentum and a powerful effect in exchange for a life. Granted, the more lives you throw away the closer you are to losing but often an individual poke isnt actually that valuable to you. Maybe they are hard countered by the other team, or they already lost alot of HP, or perhaps you are already ahead but need things to stay that way. Whatever, life is cheap, momentum is trickier to grasp. Its also worth pointing out that some of the effects you get from suicide moves are amazing. Killing your own poke obviously gives you an instant switch but killing or crippling an opposing poke at the same time? Bargain.

What pokes can run suicide moves effectively and what kind of tricks can they pull off with them?

(here is a basic list of tricks that I'm hoping you can add to)

Lots of these are attacks are indescriminate.... which is awsome, nothing better than a suicide poke to cover gaping weaknesses in your team :)

Destiny Bond

Destiny Bond is simple but amazing. If your opponent knocks you out then they go down too.

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Destiny bond gives you slightly different options depending on whether you are faster or slower than your opponent.

Tricks:
- kill an opponent and then use destiny bond... your damaged poke just took out a second opponent
- take out a dangerous sweeper (destiny bond is super because it covers so many potential gamewinners)
- combined with encore you can create a trap where your opponent either KOs you (killing themselves) or gets a non-attacking move encored and becomes setup fodder
- stall for multiple turns to take advantage of leftovers or to let status cause more residual damage to an opponent
- spam destiny bond to get a free attack or free switch. Nobody wants to lose their healthy poke to a retarded gimmick when they could just outstall you with non-damaging moves. Fast destiny bond users can take advantage of the opportunity to throw in a random attack with relatively low risk. Slower pokes cant get free attacks this way but can still get a free switch.
- destiny bond is the only way several ghost types can escape from a pursuit user. Either the attacker has to accept the trade or allow the ghost to switch out of a terrible matchup

Issues:
- requires accurate prediction or a complimentary move to enable a trap
- vulnerable to status effects, indirect damage bypasses destiny bond
- low PP, eight is plenty but you can definately run out

Explode / Self Destruct

These moves pack alot of punch and occur instantly. Unlike destiny bond you dont run the risk of your opponent setting up on you or any shenanigans like that.

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Tricks:
- instant switch into a new poke while garuanteeing that the new poke will take no damage on the way in
- perfect for maintaining momentum after setting up weather, hazards, or trick room. Rain dance -> explode! -> swift swim is a pretty brutal way of switching into a sweeper: its quick, it maintains pressure, and its 100% safe
- trade away an unfavourable matchup
- bypasses taunt

Issues:
- Protect! Substitute! These moves can screw you up.
- might not kill your opponent which could be a disaster
- does not work against ghost types

Memento

Memento is a little different from the other attacks because it cripples the opposing pokemon rather than killing it. This seems weak until you realise that a crippled poke is sometimes worse than a dead one. Since your poke died you get a safe switch in and since they got crippled you can setup with impunity... two turns is a super huge shift in momentum and that free turn of setup might well be gg right there. Think about what volcorona or haxorus can do after a single dance.

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I havent really looked at memento very much yet. Its on the to do list so I'm especially keen to find out what sort of filth people have dreamed up for this one. My best guess is...

Dugtrio -> revenge kill something (hurrah for arena trap) -> opponent counters dugtrio -> memento -> win?

Final gambit

Final gambit is interesting because it causes an exact amount of damage so there is a little less luck and a little less calculation involved. Unfortunately it is completely useless if you already took alot of damage, which makes it alot less dangerous than some of the other suicide moves.

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Victini looks like the primary benefactor. Victini is relatively fast and relatively bulky and comes with a whole bunch of other great options. V-create is awsome but runs the risk of being absorbed by a heatran or some BS like that (plus it comes with stat drops, urgh). Final gambit is a straightforward way to bypass those kind of problems.

Choice scarf or physical sweeper victini's seem like the most obvious build but I'm ever hopeful that someone will have constructed some sort of fabulously ingenious (and utterly ridiculous) set. Chestorest-gambit anyone?

So, how do you guys use these moves competitively. What teams do they fit and what tricks have I missed?

 

[Stratos]

And here I thought that when I saw the phrase "competitive Suicide" and "new player" together it was bound to be a bad thread...

just proves that you can't judge a book by its postcount!

 

[Byrne]

Frankly, in the fifth generation, these moves really flew under the radar, primarily because of the nerf to Explosion's power. It no longer halves the opposing Pokemon's defense, making it significantly less strong so Pokemon like Metagross can no longer have a foolproof automatic KO on basically anything.

Final Gambit kind of has it's uses on things like Victini, but other than that it kinds of sucks and you basically have to design your set for it rather than slapping it on as a last resort, guaranteed KO like Explosion was. Basically, you have to use it when at full health or else it slowly gets worse and worse.

Destiny Bond is extremely good on Froslass, which is an underrated Pokemon in OU, to be honest. Even without hail, it basically encompasses a Spikes user and a spin blocker in one, freeing up valuable teamslots. Destiny Bond then works to get a free kill against something that's just trying to stop you from putting up more hazards.

Memento is something I've never really used or tested, but I can definitely see it's merits on a hyper offense team that's wants to do something like setting up screens with Latios and using Memento to basically guarantee a boost or two from one of it's sweepers. Could definitely be used to great effect.

 

[New World Order]

Don't really have anything to share. But I think its worth mentioning Healing Wish/ Lunar Dance in the OP as well. While they might not be the most useful moves, especially in the upper tiers, they can certainly turn the tides of a match in 1 turn.

 

[ssbbm]

just to talk about explosion: sure, it's not *as* good as last gen, but it's still pretty amazing. run it on something like azelf with lo and you're guaranteed at least 75% of any enemy that doesn't resist explosion.

 

[Emperor]

I've tried the other suicide moves but DB is the one that just seems to work the best. I've always like to fit it in my team if I can. It's a quick and easy way to get solid momentum any time during the match. :)

My favorite users are scarf Gengar and a nasty Smeargle lead set which I'm not posting here since I like to keep it as my personal trump card for when I feel like using it :P

 

[2sly4u]

Memento is my personal favorite out of all of those. It gets quite a few notable members, but the most intriguing is easily Dugtrio, who can learn in through breeding in Gen V.

The biggest risk that Memento presents is sacrificing on the wrong pokemon. If your opponent switches in a Phazer or wall as you attempt to sacrifice, you're basically down a pokemon with no benefit. Dugtrio fixes this problem with his blistering Speed and ability, Arena Trap. You're guaranteed to cripple the right pokemon, setting the stage for a setup sweeper to destroy the opposing team.

Gastrodon is interesting as well, since it can fit on such a large number of teams and doesn't really suffer from 4MSS. A set of Toxic/Recover/STAB Move/Memento could be fun to try out.

 

[GARCHOMPZILLA]

i dont like them as much as i used to cause even though they changed the cpu rules u will still die using these first when ur at ur last pokemon. dest. bond is the best cuase it requires no call, sacrifice or hp dependence

 

[chrisrandom9]

Lunar Dance and the like are probably quite relevant. Probably the most useful move in terms of going for a sweep. It's like a chestorest that doesn't take up a moveslot on your sweeper (although it does take up a whole teamslot)

 

[Iceydude168]

I run Scarf Gengar in Ubers. With Destiny Bond, of course.
-Takes out Kyogre, who blithely Surfs me when I come out to revenge it. Destiny Bond KO. Then I bring in Groudon for some Sun, I now have control over the weather.
-Takes out Extremekiller Arceus, which needs Shadow Claw to KO it. Destiny Bond KO.
-Takes out all forms of offensive Arceus.
-Takes out Darkrai.
-Takes out Mewtwo.
-Takes out all Scarfed Pokemon that it outspeeds (i.e. Palkia)

There's a reason why I love it <3 The only problem is that I can only have one Gengar per team :o

 

[Katakiri]

Saying Lunar Dance/Healing Wish takes up an entire team slot is a stretching it. It only takes up one move slot and the Pokemon that can use the move, can definitely spare a move slot for it. It's users are far from useless. Jirachi, Celebi, Latias, Lilligant, & Shaymin don't mind giving up a move slot and ending a sweep a turn early, if they're going down the next turn anyway, to fully heal it's team's Dragonite, Volcarona, or Weather Starter back to full health regardless of SR & Spikes since it heals them before they take entry hazard damage. "SR is up & Ninetales is below 25% HP, I can just fodder my Politoed. Okay now time to swee-WTF?!"

There are other users like Blissey, Clefable, Gardevoir, & Mesprit, but they're generally better off using something else. I can't even think of any kind of team where Blissey would KO itself for any reason.

 

[Aleva]

@Katakiri
Just pointing out, hazards do damage before Healing Wish heals.

Healing Wish on Lilligant seems to be especially popular, with the doubled speed from Chlorophyll, it gives an almost guaranteed successful pass.

I haven't seen many explosion users though.

Memento Dugtrio is amazing. Kill their weather starter, Memento, pass to Dragonite/Volcarona/anyone who loves a free turn of set-up. If you have screens up as well then a neutral attack is treated as a 4x resistance. Amazing.

 

[Katakiri]

No Healing Wish heals before hazards. It was fixed months ago. I should know better than anyone since I use it every day. Go try it. It's a guaranteed Full Restore + Max Elixir (Yes it restores all PP) to any Non-fainted Pokemon.

 

[ΩDonut]

No Healing Wish heals before hazards. It was fixed months ago. I should know better than anyone since I use it every day. Go try it. It's a guaranteed Full Restore + Max Elixir (Yes it restores all PP) to any Non-fainted Pokemon.

Healing Wish isn't supposed to heal PP - that's a PO glitch that'll be fixed next update. Only Lunar Dance does.

 

[Sprocket]

There's a reason why I love it <3 The only problem is that I can only have one Gengar per team :o

There's always Choice Scarf Haunter :P

On that note, there's potential for Destiny Bond use in doubles with slow and bulky Pokemon under Trick Room, namely Dusclops or Dusknoir. Hell it's a dangerous move to use in doubles or triples in the first place.

 

[Birkal]

I personally have done a lot of work with Final Gambit Victini, and the results always vary. I used it on one of my Sun-teams with it as a Choice Scarf lead with FG, V-Create, and U-turn. I'd recommend getting in some practice if you're going to attempt to use one. If the opponent is packing a Reuniclus or a Blissey, you need to learn to keep on the down low AND remove hazards before bringing in Victini; nothing is worse than using Final Gambit on those with greater HP. However, OHKOing a Tyranitar who thinks it can use Pursuit or a Politoed spamming Hydro Pump is one of the best feelings. And even if that doesn't work out, you can often break their core when they switch into something like Gliscor or Landorus. It's a strategy that is certainly viable but not always reliable. You'll certainly catch some users off guard. But if your opponent is prepared for the Final Gambit and is doing all he/she can to keep up hazards, then it will be an uphill match.

 

[Treadshot A1]

Can I just make a suggestion, that we include Recoil moves as well? Because often I like to use HJK until I either win or die from recoil, and that actually isn't as bad as it seems. It gives a free switch, and it means that a Choice Bander or Swords Dancer can come in and either wreak havoc or set up.

Anyways, as for the moves you mentioned, I always liked the idea of hating Memento, but recently I've been considering it. Still, I wish it did kill, but the OP is right in saying its sometimes better than a kill. Personally, though, I often have trouble fitting it into the team, but I agree with the sentiment that not wasting your sweeper's moveslots is great.

Oh, and the Explosion nerf really turned me away from that move.

 

[min min]

Oh man I thought this was going to be an awesome new fun meta where the point is to kill yourself ASAP. Guess not.

And Explosion is still usable, but you better have at least a Choice Band or a Normal Gem equipped for that.

 

[Taylor]

Memento, if I had to choose between the moves presented, is my personal favourite amongst you moves listed.

Light Clay, Modest/Timid Latios with Draco Meteor dents anything coming your way that is not resisting it. Once your screens are set, Memento to ensure that even Choice Band Haxorus/Terrakion can't penetrate through your Shell Smash user that follows.

 

[Phi]

I think there's a few other broader topics that could be covered here under the idea of "taking advantage of a pokemon's death competitively." Switches are generally bad things to do because especially with the prevalence of entry hazards you're basically giving your opponent free damage every time you switch. Compound that with how much harder it is to reliably switch in to most powerful offensive threats, even for stall teams it's often a better idea to simply let whatever you have stay in and cripple the opponent with a decent chunk of damage or status than switch out. Similar strategies include:

Life Orb: This is a biggie because it lets heavy offense basically spend the entire battle either setting up or attacking with minimal switches. Your HP is the gas in the tank that's the life orb, and it's moving them towards constant damage output. If your sweeper is powerful enough, which it should be if you'e entrusted it with this power, even a NVE STAB move should be shaving off a decent chunk of your opponent's HP that basically puts it in guaranteed kill range from almost anything else on your team. Or at least that's how it usually goes with me and walls. :\

Guts/Quick Feet/Toxic Boost(lol) + Toxic/Burn Orb: Kinda the same thing, except with the boost in power and the damage output being constant I'd usually play these like a choice bander that can switch attacks than as a set up sweeper like a lot of stuff with life orb.

Focus Sash/Sturdy: Kinda doesn't count, but when you're surviving an attack at 1% you're not expecting to live long afterwards. It's great for pokemon that only need one guaranteed turn to do what they need to do, though obviously it doesn't happen to occur outside of the lead position. Also obviously it needed to be brought up here anyways because this item basically invented the term "suicide lead" as far as that exists as anything these days.

Hail: Hail's a lot cooler as an offensive weather that deals damage than Sandstorm because a lot fewer of the most common defensive and offensive and used Pokemon resist/get defensive boosts from it. Also Abomasnow brings change you can believe in with his ridiculous STABs kill every weather starter but Ninetails, but more importantly basically destroy most of the main weather abusers except volcarona. Anyways, the disadvantages of hail as a playstyle are numerous, but having a way of guaranteed nullifying all of your opponent's leftovers can be invaluable to a lot of offensive teams, and in combination with stuff like life orb or recoil moves you can have a pokemon skidaddle as quick as you please, though watch out since you're basically putting everything that doesn't have lefovers or isn't abomasnow on a timer.


Perish Song: Um, i think i'm just pulling stuff out of my ass here, now. :/

Conversely though also sometimes it's a good idea to switch out instead of dying because then you can use whatever that was as death fodder for an invaluable free switch later on. I'd say more but it's complicated and whoa it's three twenty AM in mountain time or whatever's to the east of my standard time so i gotta um do some stuff.

 

[Spork]

Controlled suicide in the form of Memento or Lunar Dance/Healing Wish are the most 'competitive' imo, since they're reliable and actually give you momentum. Explosion and Destiny Bond are both pretty unreliable, and also pretty easy to get around, especially considering the explosion nerf - explosion is still Azelf's best suicide move, though.

The best use of suicide, imo, is on dual screeners - by suiciding after screening, you gain a ton of momentum, and often the ability to use a set up move at least twice (once on the switch, once on the buffered attack of the switch-in). Lunar Dance Cresselia is one of my favourites here as a mid-game dual screener, and Memento is also pretty great, as it basically guarantees a switch, even if your switch-in, in most other situations, is killed by the target.

 

[The Silent Storm]

Memento.
Uxie (M) @ Light Clay
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Memento
- Stealth Rock
'nuff said

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Memento.
Latios (M) @ Light Clay
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Memento
- Draco Meteor
'nuff said

Fixed...

Explosion still has a nasty 250 BP guys which means its going to dent shit that doesn't resist it in the very least.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Interesting topic, great first thread.

My gripes with Final Gambit on Victini in particular is that the only way to guarantee max damage is to switch it in on a set up move or from a U-turn / Volt Switch that moved second, all while keeping entry hazards off the field. In the latter case, you've probably done significant damage with your CB Scizor or Specs Rotom (remember, slower) to where you can just switch in something else to do the job. You're only free to invest 4 EVs in another stat, which leaves it 237 Attack or Special Attack - quite weak and almost leaving you without a back up plan bar U-turn.

 

[NoUserName]

No Healing Wish heals before hazards. It was fixed months ago. I should know better than anyone since I use it every day. Go try it. It's a guaranteed Full Restore + Max Elixir (Yes it restores all PP) to any Non-fainted Pokemon.

Katakiri is right, It used to be in 4th gen when it heals after taking hazards.

Sadly due the new mechanics do a pokemon poisoned from TS after being healed by Healing Wish.

But, Katakiri, I disagree with you in the point of, you said Mesprit is not good for Healing Wish, I used it in 4th gen as a support pokemon in OU and it is pretty good, I also think Lopunny could be good as the same role in lower tiers(Actually, I copied the strategy of Lopunny on Mesprit in upper tiers)



About the topic, don't forget Grudge.