Scarfed Ogre almost always runs 252+...
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The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
Scarfed Ogre almost always runs 252+...
I'm probably gonna get crucified for this, but ho hum.
Charizard is not that bad. It's still extremely average (if that), but it doesn't deserve its own "omg look at how sucky this is don't use it lol" tier.
Base 100 speed in Ubers is good, outpacing the hordes of base 90s, Kyurem forms, Rayquaza, and Genesect, as well as tying with Palkia. It hits like a nuclear bomb under the sun as well, with a sun boosted solar power overheat hitting harder than specs Ogre's Water Spout. Of course its advantages don't stretch much beyond that. It's 100% weather dependent, and seeing as Sun is already hard pressed to win the weather war in BW2, Charizard may be dead weight in many matches. Its bulk is nothing short of lackluster, and its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired, making its only relevant defensive role a switch in to Genesect (who just U turns out anyway). Furthermore, there seems little reason not to choose a similar sun nuke like Kyurem-W when considering the superior offensive typing and coverage dragons offer (though Zard gets a very powerful D Pulse under the sun). And ofc there is the 4x SR weakness.
But overall, Charizard isn't inherently terrible like Shedinja (who actually does deserve his own POS tier); it's simply outclassed. Reshiram is also outclassed, yet that's not dropping down to E tier anytime soon. If you build around Charizard, you can succeed with it; that alone should grant it removal from E tier. I'm not even pushing to have it ranked, just removed from E would be nice.
Anyway, after probably destroying any credibility I may have built on these forums, I'll have a look at MM's list. It all seems very well ranked really. I WOULD push for S rank to be separated into low and high, with Dialga, Ho-oh and Latias in low, and Ghostceus in Kyogre in high, but I'm fine with the current layout. Arceus Electric should be low B though. All it needs is rain support and it becomes an amazing check to hyper offense. It's fast enough to beat every prominent offensive poke bar weather abusers and scarfers, has enough bulk to take p much any non ground attack, and hits ridiculously hard with a 30% chance to cripple any non ground switch in. Groudon doesn't like switching in to ice beam either. It's definitely as usable as Dragonceus, I mean come on...
Charizard is not that bad. It's still extremely average (if that), but it doesn't deserve its own "omg look at how sucky this is don't use it lol" tier.
Base 100 speed in Ubers is good, outpacing the hordes of base 90s, Kyurem forms, Rayquaza, and Genesect, as well as tying with Palkia. It hits like a nuclear bomb under the sun as well, with a sun boosted solar power overheat hitting harder than specs Ogre's Water Spout. Of course its advantages don't stretch much beyond that. It's 100% weather dependent, and seeing as Sun is already hard pressed to win the weather war in BW2, Charizard may be dead weight in many matches. Its bulk is nothing short of lackluster, and its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired, making its only relevant defensive role a switch in to Genesect (who just U turns out anyway). Furthermore, there seems little reason not to choose a similar sun nuke like Kyurem-W when considering the superior offensive typing and coverage dragons offer (though Zard gets a very powerful D Pulse under the sun). And ofc there is the 4x SR weakness.
But overall, Charizard isn't inherently terrible like Shedinja (who actually does deserve his own POS tier); it's simply outclassed. Reshiram is also outclassed, yet that's not dropping down to E tier anytime soon. If you build around Charizard, you can succeed with it; that alone should grant it removal from E tier. I'm not even pushing to have it ranked, just removed from E would be nice.
Anyway, after probably destroying any credibility I may have built on these forums, I'll have a look at MM's list. It all seems very well ranked really. I WOULD push for S rank to be separated into low and high, with Dialga, Ho-oh and Latias in low, and Ghostceus in Kyogre in high, but I'm fine with the current layout. Arceus Electric should be low B though. All it needs is rain support and it becomes an amazing check to hyper offense. It's fast enough to beat every prominent offensive poke bar weather abusers and scarfers, has enough bulk to take p much any non ground attack, and hits ridiculously hard with a 30% chance to cripple any non ground switch in. Groudon doesn't like switching in to ice beam either. It's definitely as usable as Dragonceus, I mean come on...
Why was Arceus-normal downgraded to A rank? Arc-normal is, imo, better than ghostceus. Specially offensive ghostceus (its best set) is fucked by a bulky Ho-Oh, physical ghostceus has the same counters as Ekiller (plus a lot of extras because his Extremespeed is wayyyyyyy weaker), and both sets are vulnerable to sleep and/or a huge hit from Darkrai, who Ekiller ohkos after a single swords dance. Ekiller can even set up on Darkrai if he carries a lum berry.
I get that ghostceus doubles as a spinblocker, and that's very useful to a lot of teams, but you only get one Arceus. He's so fucking deadly that I prefer to have Giratina-O spinblock. A lot of Forretress in ubers carry toxic, and you don't want your best sweeper or your best wall eating a toxic from that shitty little bug. G-O can eat the toxic, 2HKO with HP fire (even in the rain with rocks if spikes are down, and they are down because you're fucking spinblocking), and now your significantly more threatening Arceus is still alive and healthy.
TLDR: Ghostceus deserves his s-rank, but arceus-normal deserves it at least as much as ghostceus does.
The real reason Charizard seems to be on this ranking to begin with it is because Charizard is a rather common Pokemon on newbie teams, and as such, a point needs to be made and emphasized that it is not worth using at all. I personally still don't get that logic, as I rarely see Charizard being used on the ladder outside of good players making teams based on it to troll the ladder (and by this logic, stuff like Dragonite, Politoed, and Ninetales would have to be added to E as well), but it's become a rather notorious Pokemon in the community so it's probably here to stay.
I love Silk Scarf EKiller because it offers strong priority, good bulk, and an excellent cleaner. However, it is easily checked by a myriad of threats whereas CM Ghostceus can only be effectively checked by Ho-Oh (offensive Ho-Oh cannot switch in if SR is up), pink blobs (Substitute variants lacking Recover destroy them) Specially Defense Kyogre (can really only phaze it out) and Arceus-Dark (dislikes Focus Blast). CM Ghostceus can not only clean teams late game, but because of its superior coverage it can afford to run Recover, meaning there is no reason to shelter it for a late-game sweep in an attempt to conserve its energy. It spinblocks as well, so unlike EKiller it can actually support the team. I like them both a lot and feel that Arceus-Normal is badly underrated by competitive players because of how well it matches up against the most common team archetype (offense). However, CM Ghostceus is slightly superior.
Charizard is going to have to simply because it's become the poster boy for really bad Pokemon that scrubs use. It's even been featured multiple(?) times in smog articles with this image. Yes, it's not that horrendously bad but you should still never use and yet many people do.
Since S rank is so small I'm just going to leave it without divisions. If more stuff gets added to it I'll make the splits.
Those are some good points about Electriceus. Another thing worth noting is that under rain it serves as a nice Ho-Oh check/counter. As far as pure wall breaking power Dragonceus outclasses it IMO but to be fair, Dragonceus is probably the only Arceus forme that resembles a wall breaker. Again, I'm not going to move it up just yet because, to be honest, I'm not that familiar with it. However, if more people support it I have no problem doing so.
As for Ekiller, I honestly would have no problem dropping it further. The whole power and advantage of Arceus in Ubers is the ability to choose your typing to combine with that excellent bulk, nice speed and acceptable offenses to serve as the ultimate glue in teambuilding. Ekiller throws all that away just to be another cleaner and it's arguably not even the best one there is. There are a lot of checks and counters that are common place on offensive teams and defensive ones have zero problem with Ekiller. It's one of the weakest offensive threats in Ubers, 120 base attack and an 80 base power STAB (with those terribly weak coverage moves BB and SClaw) is really nothing to write home about. Swords Dance is its saving grace in the offensive department and even then it is only good at what it does because of the natural bulk to ease setup and Prio STAB to bypass most attempts to check it offensively (as in, bring something faster and try to KO it first). Ghost Arceus, on the other hand, has excellent coverage options (okay Focus Miss sucks when is doesn't hit) and it maintains that wonderful utility typing that you should be using Arceus for in the first place. The max SpAtk set actually 2HKOs standard Tank Ho-Oh after SR making it a shaky switch-in. (you have to predict the CM) It can also take a defensive approach and not be outclassed by one of its peers (Leftovers isn't worth being a useless Normal type) which makes it a pretty omnipresent Pokemon.
Edit: (in response to a VM from Magcargo2)
Except Kingdra isn't SR weak, has a typing worth using and once under its weather it really excels. Basically, Reshiram suffers from a lot of flaws and even its advantages are very limited. Kingdra may be reliant on team support but it definitely pays off and is an active team member.
Kyurem-B is a pretty terrible Pokemon. It serves the same role as Kyurem-W except it doesn't do it nearly as well while suffering from the same flaws.
Since S rank is so small I'm just going to leave it without divisions. If more stuff gets added to it I'll make the splits.
Those are some good points about Electriceus. Another thing worth noting is that under rain it serves as a nice Ho-Oh check/counter. As far as pure wall breaking power Dragonceus outclasses it IMO but to be fair, Dragonceus is probably the only Arceus forme that resembles a wall breaker. Again, I'm not going to move it up just yet because, to be honest, I'm not that familiar with it. However, if more people support it I have no problem doing so.
As for Ekiller, I honestly would have no problem dropping it further. The whole power and advantage of Arceus in Ubers is the ability to choose your typing to combine with that excellent bulk, nice speed and acceptable offenses to serve as the ultimate glue in teambuilding. Ekiller throws all that away just to be another cleaner and it's arguably not even the best one there is. There are a lot of checks and counters that are common place on offensive teams and defensive ones have zero problem with Ekiller. It's one of the weakest offensive threats in Ubers, 120 base attack and an 80 base power STAB (with those terribly weak coverage moves BB and SClaw) is really nothing to write home about. Swords Dance is its saving grace in the offensive department and even then it is only good at what it does because of the natural bulk to ease setup and Prio STAB to bypass most attempts to check it offensively (as in, bring something faster and try to KO it first). Ghost Arceus, on the other hand, has excellent coverage options (okay Focus Miss sucks when is doesn't hit) and it maintains that wonderful utility typing that you should be using Arceus for in the first place. The max SpAtk set actually 2HKOs standard Tank Ho-Oh after SR making it a shaky switch-in. (you have to predict the CM) It can also take a defensive approach and not be outclassed by one of its peers (Leftovers isn't worth being a useless Normal type) which makes it a pretty omnipresent Pokemon.
Edit: (in response to a VM from Magcargo2)
Except Kingdra isn't SR weak, has a typing worth using and once under its weather it really excels. Basically, Reshiram suffers from a lot of flaws and even its advantages are very limited. Kingdra may be reliant on team support but it definitely pays off and is an active team member.
Kyurem-B is a pretty terrible Pokemon. It serves the same role as Kyurem-W except it doesn't do it nearly as well while suffering from the same flaws.
Well that's just stupid then. Losing to opposing base 90 scarfers is a massive price to pay for that slight boost in power. Though from I've seen most scarfed ogres run 252 SpA/252+ spd. ~shrugs~
The increase in power is very notable. It allows you to 2HKO 252/0 Arceus after SR with a 131 BP Water Spout, kill 0/0 Giratina-O, etc.
As far as other Base 90 Scarfers go, Zekrom beats you anyway, you beat Resharim anyway, and Ho-Oh won't risk coming in considering it can't kill you in one shot. Dialga is a threat worth considering, true, but not worth the power trade off imo, especially considering Scarf Dialga wants to run Modest even more than Kyogre does (site standard for Scarf Dialga is 204 Modest).
EDIT: Also about Charizard...I'd much rather run Charizard on my team than Dugtrio come on
I don't think Ekiller is just another cleaner. It's literally unstoppable unless you have something that resists espeed and is faster (scarf Terrakion, scarf Dialga if the Arceus is low health), have a Poke that can survive an attack and phaze/burn it (physically defensive Groudon, defensive Giratina, a full health G-O), or you win the speed tie with your own Ekiller. You are correct that extremespeed is relatively weak in ubers (even with silk scarf, it's 80% of the strength of any other Arceus's judgment), but I believe the +2 priority and the ability to boost with swords dance instead of calm mind more than makes up for that.
I won't comment on defensive normal Arceus since I've never used it, but I think Ekiller alone is superior to Genesect, Latias, Dialga, and all the other high A rankers (except Ho-Oh, who is probably the best Poke in ubers when stealth rock isn't on the ground).
I was just giving examples, not trying to name em all, but you're right. However, Skarm doesn't really serve a purpose in ubers except for countering Ekiller, Lugia is beaten if stealth rocks are down, physically defensive Forry can be beaten by using brick break over earthquake, and Kabutops and Excadrill will give any of the S-rank guys trouble if their weather of choice is up. I might be wrong because I don't post here often, so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this, but I don't think S-rank means you're uncounterable.
Darkrai? Powerful physical scarfs?
I don't know if it's controversial, but I feel like as excellent as Ghostceus' coverage is with just two moves, both of which are admittedly more powerful than what Ekiller tends to run, reliance on Focus Blast is also a limitation. 70% accuracy is awful and haunts it pretty much every match, at least something that Ekiller never has to worry about.
Ekiller is also a rare sweeper in that is still largely functional when paralyzed. Ghostceus can still enjoy its great bulk and spinblock effectively, but unless it already has a few boosts under its belt paralysis will prevent any kind of sweep.
That's true, but for a significant proportion of the checks and counters they simply need to be softened up slightly. The offensive checks are ALL conditional, requiring either significant prior damage, weather support, or both, and all of them are OHKO'd if they fail to OHKO Arceus first. The defensive checks must rely on WoW's 75% accuracy, or phaze it (which hardly leaves it crippled). By and large, the defensive checks can scarcely hurt Arceus and many of them (including Skarmory, which is the only Pokemon that laughs at any move Arceus tends to carry and has reliable recovery) are unable to do much anything to it if it's the last mon.
Also, where single Pokemon fail to stop Ghostceus, unlike Ekiller, it can be stopped by an onslaught of powerful faster Pokemon. Yes, it means needing to sack Pokemon, but it also means that something like HO can manage it without needing to pack any dedicated answer to it.
Skarm does waaay more than just counter E-Killer. It's a spike stacker, in a metagame where spikes are so crucial to nabbing key kills (Ubers is commonly known as the land of 1%, or similar sayings). It boasts very substantial physical bulk, allowing it to check almost all variants of physical Arceus, Groudon without FB/Overheat, Kyurem B, Kabutops, and SD Ludicolo (I'm not the only one that uses this right? lol). It also gets access to taunt, which is such a good move in the tier. Skarm outspeeds Ferrothorn, Forretress, and can be ev'd to outspeed things like Groudon and Dialga. This means it can keep hazards off the field for a team that doesn't want to commit to a spinner, which is so good. Seriously, get Brave Bird off your Skarm and put taunt on, it's not like being taunt bait matters when Brave Bird hits nothing anyway. So yea, please don't underrate Skarm, it's very very good.
E Killer can't beat Forry with Brick Break, l0l. It does less than EQ, and by then Forry has already poisoned you and you've only got a handful of turns just to take it down, let alone a team. EKiller dropping is good imo. I think I pushed for it a while back here, but the thread was kind of dying then anyway, so it's good to see it implemented straight away. Ekiller just comes at such a big opportunity cost for a team. No doubt it's terrifying when set up without checks, but its checks are so ubiquitous that its rare EKiller ever sweeps at a high level of play. The biggest thing is that it simply can't beat its checks, unlike Ghostceus or Kyogre. And then the prominence of scarf Terrakion in BW2 has really hurt it.
Yea, honestly I could see EKiller being as low as low A, but it still does work at a low to mid level of play, so it's fine outside S for now.
EDIT: @Blue Jay. One of Ghostceus' boons is that it can actually forgo FB and replace it with W0W. That way you can beat EKiller more reliably, then sweep later on. You don't even lose out on that much. Ferrothorn can be stalled out thanks to burn, Forretress isn't taking boosted Judgments anyway, you weren't beating Darkrai in the first place, and T-Tar can also be burned and neutralised. Not much else can stand up to Judgment anyway.
How is WoW more reliable than Focus blast when it only has 5 less acc,and many Arceus-Normal are seen with lum berry.I don't get it .-.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/arceus-revamp-gp-0-2-not-ready-for-gp-checks-yet.3469167/"
Look at the checks and counters section; if you read it thoroughly, you will realize why ALL your arguements about Arceus-Normal are terrible.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/arceus-revamp-gp-0-2-not-ready-for-gp-checks-yet.3469167/"
Look at the checks and counters section; if you read it thoroughly, you will realize why ALL your arguements about Arceus-Normal are terrible.
Despite insistence on Extreme Killer Arceus being the best Pokemon in the game by far, I disagree and I wish it to be dropped lower on the viability rankings. Although these rankings are just petty guesstimates of how Pokemon of different roles come together in a level environment, I do believe they hold some merit to beginners scouting the Ubers subforum to investigate what the best Pokemon of the tier are. There are a few reasons why I detest using an Extreme Killer on any of my teams.
Conclusion: Arceus has several checks and counters much like any Pokemon. If you could sweep with an Arcues end game, there's a good chance you could probably sweep with any offensive Pokemon
2 + 3.) I believe these points are rather self explanatory, but I will explain it anyways. Normal-type gives you no defensive synergy whatsoever which often leads to a team weakness. Chansey and Blissey are praised for having a Normal typing due to the fact nothing can hit it supereffectively with a Special move barring the abysmal Fighting-type moves, so they can wall pretty much anything special. Arceus on the other hand can run an offensive set with a typing which checks Pokemon on the other team as well which Extreme Killer doesn't take advantage of. Arceus-Fighting for example can check Darkrai, Extreme Killer, Dialga, etc. while running a perfectly viable Calm Mind set or even a lure set with Stone Edge. Extreme Killer on the other hand checks literally nothing. It can revenge kill with Extreme Speed, yes, but does that equate to being an effective check to Mewtwo and co.? A particularly strong ExtremeSpeed can be useful for picking off threats, but by no means is Arceus a strong check to anything. If you could make better use of this slot and fit in a different Arceus forme, your team will probably be less weak to opposing threats and more effective in the long run.
Conclusion: Running an ExtremeKiller often makes your team weaker to opposing threats than if you were running a different Arceus forme which provided some defensive synergy to a team.
4.) ExtremeKiller Arceus lovers often make it seem like it's running like 3 items simultaneously. If it has Lum Berry, it's missing out on too many crucial KO's which gives the often more time to kill it. If it's running Silk Scarf or Life Orb, it is easily burned. The same applies to its moveslot as well. It cannot have Swords Dance, Fire Blast, ExtremeSpeed, Earthquake, Brick Break, Aqua Tail, Recover, Shadow Claw, etc. all simultaneously. If it choses a particular move, it's walled by another Pokemon which is presumably common. For example, say you wanted to use Fire Blast instead of Earthquake. You now are far weaker to Tyranitar and Dialga.
Conclusion: Arceus is hard pressed for moveslots which makes it vulnerable to opposing threats.
Although Arceus has some pros, I believe it is still a mediocre Pokemon at best and its formes are far superior. Keep in mind that I am a big fan of Walleus, so Arceus shouldn't fall below A-rank in my opinion, but it definitely isn't S-rank.
- It is too easily walled with several common checks and counters that aren't individualized.
- It provides no defensive synergy for a team.
- It wastes your Arceus slot which often is a glue for teams.
- 4MSS / Item slot indecision
Conclusion: Arceus has several checks and counters much like any Pokemon. If you could sweep with an Arcues end game, there's a good chance you could probably sweep with any offensive Pokemon
2 + 3.) I believe these points are rather self explanatory, but I will explain it anyways. Normal-type gives you no defensive synergy whatsoever which often leads to a team weakness. Chansey and Blissey are praised for having a Normal typing due to the fact nothing can hit it supereffectively with a Special move barring the abysmal Fighting-type moves, so they can wall pretty much anything special. Arceus on the other hand can run an offensive set with a typing which checks Pokemon on the other team as well which Extreme Killer doesn't take advantage of. Arceus-Fighting for example can check Darkrai, Extreme Killer, Dialga, etc. while running a perfectly viable Calm Mind set or even a lure set with Stone Edge. Extreme Killer on the other hand checks literally nothing. It can revenge kill with Extreme Speed, yes, but does that equate to being an effective check to Mewtwo and co.? A particularly strong ExtremeSpeed can be useful for picking off threats, but by no means is Arceus a strong check to anything. If you could make better use of this slot and fit in a different Arceus forme, your team will probably be less weak to opposing threats and more effective in the long run.
Conclusion: Running an ExtremeKiller often makes your team weaker to opposing threats than if you were running a different Arceus forme which provided some defensive synergy to a team.
4.) ExtremeKiller Arceus lovers often make it seem like it's running like 3 items simultaneously. If it has Lum Berry, it's missing out on too many crucial KO's which gives the often more time to kill it. If it's running Silk Scarf or Life Orb, it is easily burned. The same applies to its moveslot as well. It cannot have Swords Dance, Fire Blast, ExtremeSpeed, Earthquake, Brick Break, Aqua Tail, Recover, Shadow Claw, etc. all simultaneously. If it choses a particular move, it's walled by another Pokemon which is presumably common. For example, say you wanted to use Fire Blast instead of Earthquake. You now are far weaker to Tyranitar and Dialga.
Conclusion: Arceus is hard pressed for moveslots which makes it vulnerable to opposing threats.
Although Arceus has some pros, I believe it is still a mediocre Pokemon at best and its formes are far superior. Keep in mind that I am a big fan of Walleus, so Arceus shouldn't fall below A-rank in my opinion, but it definitely isn't S-rank.
ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Kyu-W is A+ rank material no matter how hyped it was. Specially defensive Kyogre is still 2HKO'd by Specs Draco Meteor and the very fact the king of ubers is forced to sacrifice its attacking power to barely check one pomemon should give you an idea of how centralizing it is. Speaking of centralizing, Kyu-W is the only reason Genesect runs Iron Head, an awful coverage move. Its 95 base speed means it's incredibly easy to come in against the plethora of base 90 speed ubers and nab free KO's.
Kyu-B is B+ rank worthy instead. It's one of the most unpredictable offensive behemoths in the tier, being able to destroy the common specially defensive tanks such as Ho-oh and the aforementioned Kyogre, make Groudon run for its life (something Zekrom can't do) and do funny things like luring Scarf Palkia, survive the incoming Spacial Rend with its specially defensive set and Ko back. Even steel types arent entirely safe since a LO boosted Focus Blast will leave its mark.
Kyu-B is B+ rank worthy instead. It's one of the most unpredictable offensive behemoths in the tier, being able to destroy the common specially defensive tanks such as Ho-oh and the aforementioned Kyogre, make Groudon run for its life (something Zekrom can't do) and do funny things like luring Scarf Palkia, survive the incoming Spacial Rend with its specially defensive set and Ko back. Even steel types arent entirely safe since a LO boosted Focus Blast will leave its mark.
Demon Lord Ghirahim
Banned deucer.
Since when were you under the impression that Extreme Killer Arceus is a wall-breaker (AKA Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat rather than a Sweeper Offensive Threat), and that Will-O-Wisp's unreliability as a means of checking Arceus-Normal owes itself entirely to the possibility of Arceus-Normal holding Lum Berry (keeping in mind that the probability of Will-O-Wisp missing is equal to that of a Pokémon being fully paralyzed)?
Kyurem-W hits really hard, but beyond that it's riddled with problems. It's extremely vulnerable to any hazards and can't really find any way to heal this damage (Leftovers makes it weak, it lacks the speed/bulk to really run Roost). It wants to run Choice items or Life Orb, both of which pair terribly with a vulnerability to entry hazards. Its best move is Draco Meteor which neuters it and forces it out (yay more entry hazard damage). Its poor speed, poor defensive typing and average bulk also mean that it can rarely come in (it really doesn't want to switch in on attacks and plenty of things outspeed it). And one of the biggest downsides to choiced mons is that they often give an opponent a free turn when they're inevitably forced out (due to being locked into a move that will hardly do anything and cost you your mon if you stay in).
Also, making it sound like Kyurem-W is such a potent threat that "the king of ubers is forced to sacrifice its attacking power to barely check [it]" or in any way centralizing is completely ludicrous. Not only is a SDef Ogre not at all necessary to handle Kyurem-W, but taking hits from Kyurem-W so well is just one of MANY reasons to use SDef Ogre (handling Darkrai, helping with most CM Arceus formes, general status absorber, far more reliable rain support due to longevity, etc). If it was good for nothing but walling Kyurem-W, no one would use it.
Okay, a specially defensive Kyu-B? Alright then, sacrifice your attacking power/speed for the chance totake out one variant of Palkia while taking massive damage at the same time. Don't mind the mere presence of SR being enough to mess this set up.
Oh, and speaking of attacking power, Ice Beam and Focus Blast, the most common coverage moves on Kyu-B's mixed set (since RageBolt is a given), only work in certian situations, and even then, they rarely pack the power for a clean kill, even with SR up. This problem is further compounded by Focus Blast's inaccuracy and the ability of many of its intended targets (Ferro, Excadrill, Dialga, etc.) to one-shot Kyu-B. Weakness to SR and the recoil from Life Orb cause residual damage to rack up very quickly, allowing faster pokes to easily clean it up within 1 or 2 turns. Yes, Kyu-B may have enough speed to outrun 90-base pokes and a devastating Outrage, which may well be underappreciated, but it has far too many failings to justify such a dramatic rise to B+.
ExtremeKiller lacks sufficient power to break through several common checks and counters without Life Orb. Comparing Will-o-Wisp to paralysis chance is rather futile considering that is simple math. Coining bullshits terms like "Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat" and "Sweeper Offensive Threat" really do nothing besides make you look like a superficial elitist. If you could sweep with an Extreme Killer late game, you could probably sweep with any other strong sweeper which actually provides some defensive synergy.
To further explain my points, the best offensive teams are built around "doubling up". In short, you two of more Pokemon with similar checks and counters to weaken them to the point where one of them can break though and sweep. This is why Lum Berry Groudon + Life Orb ExtremeKiller has been used by good players in the past; however, my stance is that you're going to have a team weak to something if you use ExtremeKiller due to the fact it checks nothing. A core I gave Sweep the idea of (you can view his RMT to find out) was utilizing SD Groundeus and Kabutops togethers to break past the Giratinas. Both of these Pokemon check other on the opposing team, and it makes building an effective team far easier. ExtremeKiller's lack of defensive synergy is a fatal flaw which will make offensive teams inferior to a good team with a different Arceus forme.
To further explain my points, the best offensive teams are built around "doubling up". In short, you two of more Pokemon with similar checks and counters to weaken them to the point where one of them can break though and sweep. This is why Lum Berry Groudon + Life Orb ExtremeKiller has been used by good players in the past; however, my stance is that you're going to have a team weak to something if you use ExtremeKiller due to the fact it checks nothing. A core I gave Sweep the idea of (you can view his RMT to find out) was utilizing SD Groundeus and Kabutops togethers to break past the Giratinas. Both of these Pokemon check other on the opposing team, and it makes building an effective team far easier. ExtremeKiller's lack of defensive synergy is a fatal flaw which will make offensive teams inferior to a good team with a different Arceus forme.
Ok i wanna point out a few things: First the list of supposed checks.''Lugia, Giratina-A, Giratina-O with defensive EV's, Walleus, Ho-Oh, Choice Scarf Terrakion, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Steel, Scizor, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Groudon, Kabutops, Scarf Dialga, Ferrothorn, Zekrom, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Fighting''
First things first, both giratinas are relying entirely on will-o-wisp to check it so they are not in any way reliable counters. The threat of shadow force instead of shadow claw in some arceus sets pretty much makes this point moot. Giratina is taking 80% with a phys def spread, sp def giratina has a 50% to be ohkoed and giratina-o is outright ohkoed. Ok seriously ho-oh? Max hp ho-oh is taking (85.54 - 100.72%) from a boosted exspeed and cant ko arceus back while offensive ho-oh is always ohkoed. With a 47% chance to get a burn with sacred fire this is in no way a reliable check. In fact i cant even consider this a check at all. Even phys def ho-oh is taking 60% minimum. About terrakion, well considering that arceus always invests heavily in hp it can avoid the ohko from close combat and ko back with quake. Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel are destroyed by quake even with a max hp spread and again are relying on burns to check. Scizor cant ohko arceus with superpower even after rocks and gets koed by a boosted quake. Hippowdon can actually be 2hkoed by a boosted exspeed and can only phaze arceus at best. Landorus-t cant do anything to arceus other than lowering its atk but at the same time giving arceus a free turn to setup another swords dance. Dialga doesnt ko and gets koed back by quake. Kabutops is in the same boat. Ferrothorn will always lose, its not even remotely a check. Zekrom can survive a hit with a max hp spread, fail to ohko with band bolt strike and gets koed next turn. Arceus ghost is in the exact same boat as the giratinas. Arceus fighting cant ohko either and get 2hkoed by a boosted exspeed. Tbh i could go on with other supposed checks but the fact is, arceus is beaten by hitting it hard with something that can survive a boosted exspeed and finishing it off with another, or phazing it, setuping hazards and trying to wear it down through the match. The huge pressure it puts on the opponent (you CANT let it setup or you will be forced to sack//weaken something to beat it and will be swept if these things are down) is just ridiculous. This thing rules the tier as much as kyogre does. You NEED to have something to deal with it, in fact multiple ways to deal with it. Its so much S-Rank worthy its not even funny. Idc if it doenst bring defensive energy (its not like kabutops is bringing any), its job is just to clean once the opponent team has been at least a little bit weakened and it does it wonderfully. Bottom line, its freaking arceus, its every bit as good as it always was, its in no way outclassed by other formes and overcentralizes the tier as much as the leviathan. S-Rank imo.
First things first, both giratinas are relying entirely on will-o-wisp to check it so they are not in any way reliable counters. The threat of shadow force instead of shadow claw in some arceus sets pretty much makes this point moot. Giratina is taking 80% with a phys def spread, sp def giratina has a 50% to be ohkoed and giratina-o is outright ohkoed. Ok seriously ho-oh? Max hp ho-oh is taking (85.54 - 100.72%) from a boosted exspeed and cant ko arceus back while offensive ho-oh is always ohkoed. With a 47% chance to get a burn with sacred fire this is in no way a reliable check. In fact i cant even consider this a check at all. Even phys def ho-oh is taking 60% minimum. About terrakion, well considering that arceus always invests heavily in hp it can avoid the ohko from close combat and ko back with quake. Arceus-Rock and Arceus-Steel are destroyed by quake even with a max hp spread and again are relying on burns to check. Scizor cant ohko arceus with superpower even after rocks and gets koed by a boosted quake. Hippowdon can actually be 2hkoed by a boosted exspeed and can only phaze arceus at best. Landorus-t cant do anything to arceus other than lowering its atk but at the same time giving arceus a free turn to setup another swords dance. Dialga doesnt ko and gets koed back by quake. Kabutops is in the same boat. Ferrothorn will always lose, its not even remotely a check. Zekrom can survive a hit with a max hp spread, fail to ohko with band bolt strike and gets koed next turn. Arceus ghost is in the exact same boat as the giratinas. Arceus fighting cant ohko either and get 2hkoed by a boosted exspeed. Tbh i could go on with other supposed checks but the fact is, arceus is beaten by hitting it hard with something that can survive a boosted exspeed and finishing it off with another, or phazing it, setuping hazards and trying to wear it down through the match. The huge pressure it puts on the opponent (you CANT let it setup or you will be forced to sack//weaken something to beat it and will be swept if these things are down) is just ridiculous. This thing rules the tier as much as kyogre does. You NEED to have something to deal with it, in fact multiple ways to deal with it. Its so much S-Rank worthy its not even funny. Idc if it doenst bring defensive energy (its not like kabutops is bringing any), its job is just to clean once the opponent team has been at least a little bit weakened and it does it wonderfully. Bottom line, its freaking arceus, its every bit as good as it always was, its in no way outclassed by other formes and overcentralizes the tier as much as the leviathan. S-Rank imo.
I don't really want to walk you through all the various checks and counters. Doing so would mostly require me giving you different spreads and movesets along with explaining how some are just checks whereas others are counters. (which it also seems I'd have to explain what we mean when we say check or counter) Also, just because WoW is inaccurate doesn't mean you should be discounting so easily. Even with Lum Berry the odds are in your favor to burn. Point is that it doesn't rule the tier. About half of it can serve as a check without even really trying to while a large portion of the remainder are fair deterrents to it trying to setup. It's far from the end of the world when it gets an SD, that's the only time it begins to be remotely threatening. It's not a terrible cleaner but it's one you are using at the price of an actually useful Arceus forme, unlike a Kabutops. (who's arguably a more worthwhile choice as a cleaner than Ekiller because it can also double up as a Rapid Spinner)
I think that Deoxys-S should go down, preferably to Top B-Rank. Deoxys-S is not very good in the metagame since most opposing leads can beat it. Genesect can U-turn out and switch to a priority user (which are pretty common. Giratina_o can 2HKO it with shadow sneak. Ghostceus can bounce back its hazards with magic coat and bring it down to its sash with judgement. Custap forretress can use the combination of gyro ball and rapid spin to prevent it from doing anything and the list goes on and on. And unlike the aforementioned pokemon, Deoxys-S cannot function any other major role effectively. The only thing that keeps Deoxys-S in Top B-Rank is the dual screens set, which can allow a frail sweeper such as rayquaza to set up with ease.
Also, I'm confused why victini is top C-Rank while reshiram is mid C-Rank (not saying that reshiram is good, but it appears to be better than victini thanks to its better STAB combo and typing).
Sorry if I'm confusing, but its 1 am where I live so I am somewhat tired (not like you guys care).
Also, I'm confused why victini is top C-Rank while reshiram is mid C-Rank (not saying that reshiram is good, but it appears to be better than victini thanks to its better STAB combo and typing).
Sorry if I'm confusing, but its 1 am where I live so I am somewhat tired (not like you guys care).
Funnily enough, Victini has the better typing since it allows it to check things like Mewtwo. (which isn't exactly common so it's a nice niche) V-Create is also a giant nuke under the Sun and hits for the generally softer physical side of the metagame. Having stuff like U-turn adds to it's utility (although SR weakness is sad) and Bolt Strike is great for bulky waters. (the popularity of Sp.Def Ogre completely ruins Reshiram) It's not much better but it gives more excuses to be used on your team.
I agree that good teambuilders will have many options at their disposal to prevent Deo-S from lazily laying hazards early game but it is still very effective at this role. (one of the reasons Magic Coat is getting so popular) I'm personally not a big fan of it myself but I didn't want to not give it enough credit.
I agree that good teambuilders will have many options at their disposal to prevent Deo-S from lazily laying hazards early game but it is still very effective at this role. (one of the reasons Magic Coat is getting so popular) I'm personally not a big fan of it myself but I didn't want to not give it enough credit.