np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]

[haunter]

Hi folks! Our next, and possibly last for this Generation of Pokemon, suspect is Keldeo. In order to obtain voting rights, you must achieve a Glicko2 rating of 2000 or higher and a Glicko2 deviation of 60 or lower on the "OU (suspect test)" ladder AND the normal OU ladder. Like in the most recent tests, there will be two ladders: one where Keldeo is banned (OU (suspect test)), and one with the current tiering (with Keldeo unbanned).

Timeline of this suspect test:

• Wednesday, August 14th: OU (suspect test) ladder is created and OU ladder is reset.
• Monday, September 2nd: The Suspect Round ends. A screenshot of the ladder will be posted at that time in the Voter Identification thread.
• Within September 3rd and September 8th we will evaluate special applications and post the voting thread.

Don't worry about your current ranking on the OU ladder. The data will be saved and, when the test is over, the standard ladder will be restored.

Let me point out a few things:

1. if you wish to post in this thread, avoid making aggressive or disrespectful posts - I will, personally, moderate this discussion;
2. stay on topic. This thread is focused on Keldeo's suspect status. Don't bring up arguments regarding the tiering of other Pokemon or the tiering process in general;
3. when you achieve the voting requirements, take a screenshot of your record, but don't post it here. A dedicated identification thread will be posted at the end of the test.

When casting your vote, keep in mind these words of wisdom from Aldaron:

There is a very important point I want all of you to focus on: do not vote / post about "liking x metagame better." That isn't the purpose of our tests...the purpose is finding out whether or not Genesect Keldeo is broken, which is why, in special applications, we'll probably emphasize the ladder that has it included. The ladder without it is for you to better grasp the context of the metagame and see firsthand what happens when it is gone and from this, more completely understand what about its overall presence broke the metagame...not to use as evidence of a subjectively preferable metagame.

If you have questions regarding the current test, then feel free to contact me via PM.

Good luck everybody and have fun on the ladder!

P.s. The title of this thread is only provisional. Iconic\Aldaron will change it to a funnier one.

ICONIC EDIT: Ok

BLACKLIST (One Post Per Day)

Pocket
X5Dragon
Curtains
SmashBrosBrawl

 

[MikeDawg]

As of now I feel as if Keldeo is broken by Iconic(?)'s standards: It is inherently harmful to the metagame.

It makes blanket special walls like the pink blobs irrelevant due to secret sword

But alongside this, even specialized checks like jirachi, celebi, amoongus, latias, etc. aren't safe due to hydro pump spam (or even specs/ebelt icy wind).

Keldeo is an incredibly low risk, high-reward pokemon for this reason.

Lest you are running a sturdy water immunity (which only discourages hpump spam, they don't completely wall keldeo), you are forced to check Keldeo offensively which is problematic for two reasons: 1) That is forcing an even further dependence on offense (which admittedly isn't an inherently bad thing, simply something that many seem to frown upon) and 2) It is difficult to check keldeo even offensively. The latis can come in after a kill, but keldeo can simply switch out to jirachi or the like. Otherwise they can only switch in once to hpump and are killed outright by icy wind. Few pokemon outspeed and it is very durable, particularly due to its stealth rock resistance, common type resistances, and resilience to priority.

Keldeo has the whole package and while it does have its share of checks, the fact that it single handedly discourages general special walls while still maintaining the ability to get past almost every single one of its checks makes it an uber in my book

I do think Keldeo in Rain is broken

Given that rain exists in the ou metagame...

Also @Haunter the normal ladder wasn't reset. Idk if that's intentional but just for the record

Edit: Just reset

 

[Mr_Bramboy]

I do not think it is broken. I do think Keldeo in Rain is broken, but that would bring up the question if Weather + Pokemon is broken. It's a very hard decision, but I don't think it should be banned. Latios counters Keldeo unless it has HP Ice or Icy Wind. Scarfed Keldeo is a great revenge killer though, but I don't think it's broken.

 

[jg1198]

I would say that keldeo is just barely broken, and that may be mostly due to how easily it can be slapped on any team and how crazy strong it is while still running a "mixed" set. Besides when you can just pick a hidden power to completely blow away one of your 2 or 3 viable counters that aren't already destroyed by secret sword hydro pump or icy wind, trying to stop this thing is just too much for the metagame.

 

[Joeyboy]

Real quick, but how is "It makes blanket special walls like the pink blobs irrelevant due to secret sword" relevant? This statement as a means of deeming something broken is so wrong in my opinion. So what, a Pokemon makes certain other Pokemon not as good in the meta? That could be said with literally anything. You could say Rain makes Fire-types irrelevant because it lowers their STAB. Oh man who Celebi makes Grass/Fighting Pokemon like Breloom irrelevant... I see no difference between any of these.

Maybe this is just me though

 

[MikeDawg]

Real quick, but how is "It makes blanket special walls like the pink blobs irrelevant due to secret sword" relevant? This statement as a means of deeming something broken is so wrong in my opinion. So what, a Pokemon makes certain other Pokemon not as good in the meta? That could be said with literally anything. You could say Rain makes Fire-types irrelevant because it lowers their STAB. Oh man who Celebi makes Grass/Fighting Pokemon like Breloom irrelevant... I see no difference between any of these.

Maybe this is just me though

Because it means that because of the presence of keldeo, you can't just run something like Jirachi to wall special threats, you would have to run a celebi or something alongside it. This takes up even more team slots for an arguably redundant purpose, only further exasperating the issue of not being able to cover all of the threats of the metagame.

If there were a multitude of hpump spamming pokes that couldn't be handled by jirachi or blissey or etc., then fine.

But if ONE pokemon, with rain boosted hpumps and the inherent ability to go mixed, is able to render a number of otherwise fine special walls insufficient then there is a problem

 

[Soul Fly]

Real quick, but how is "It makes blanket special walls like the pink blobs irrelevant due to secret sword" relevant? This statement as a means of deeming something broken is so wrong in my opinion. So what, a Pokemon makes certain other Pokemon not as good in the meta? That could be said with literally anything. You could say Rain makes Fire-types irrelevant because it lowers their STAB. Oh man who Celebi makes Grass/Fighting Pokemon like Breloom irrelevant... I see no difference between any of these.
Maybe this is just me though

^I love how people like to apply the Spherical Cow to every argument to trivialize it.

 

[superstar]

It's time to Pony Up guys

Should be interesting to see a metagame without Keldeo. I really can't wait to play balance again and not have to use Latias.

EDIT: I am absolutely LOVING this name choice. I laughed for about a minute

 

[phantom]

Can the NP title please be called "my little pony"? ):

Keldeo-less OU will be interesting to see. I think this'll probably give people who are on the fence a better idea on whether or not Keldeo is broken and whether its role in OU is positive or not. Oh, and in the suspect ladder, I've been playing teams using Keldeo... I thought that suspect in question gets removed in the suspect ladder?

Edit: Ah, it just got removed. Never mind.

 

[Goutland]

I'm on the edge about Keldeo; I think this one might be broken, as it poses a massive threat to pretty much every play style, rain or not, Tyranitar support or not. But for now, I'm on the do-not-ban side until convinced otherwise.

That being said, I agree with Joeyboy's argument. Not being able to use a "blanket wall" for something doesn't necessarily mean it's broken. Hell, it can mean nothing at all. For example, Darmanitan in sun pretty much breaks every physical wall in OU with ease. But it's the furthest thing from broken due to requiring sun support, being weak to rocks, being extremely frail, taking massive recoil, etc. We really need to look at things on a case by case basis, rather than applying blanket statements like that to determine if something is broken. Also it's not like defensively oriented teams only need one physical wall and one special wall anyway.

I also don't really agree that having to run a second check to something is a waste of a teamslot, hindering you from covering more threats. It can be the case, but not always. An example here would be the Amoongbro core, both of which can check Keldeo and don't have redundant typing with each other, allowing one to check a variety of threats that the other can't.

 

[Smogon420/vp/]

New to the forums, but a long time metagame veteran

It needs to go, its more powerful than Landy-I, especially in the rain.


It resists bullet punch with 91/90/90 defenses

108 base speed supported by icy wind

Only truly countered by Jellicent and Celebi, whom both can be taken care of with hidden power

The only time I manage to get rid of this thing without it doing massive damage to my team is when I have my scarfed Rotom-W still healthy and I can get in a successful volt switch, which is still very hard


Ill be voting to ban this little pony

 

[MikeDawg]

I'm on the edge about Keldeo; I think this one might be broken, as it poses a massive threat to pretty much every play style, rain or not, Tyranitar support or not. But for now, I'm on the do-not-ban side until convinced otherwise.

That being said, I agree with Joeyboy's argument. Not being able to use a "blanket wall" for something doesn't necessarily mean it's broken. Hell, it can mean nothing at all. For example, Darmanitan in sun pretty much breaks every physical wall in OU with ease. But it's the furthest thing from broken due to requiring sun support, being weak to rocks, being extremely frail, taking massive recoil, etc. We really need to look at things on a case by case basis, rather than applying blanket statements like that to determine if something is broken. Also it's not like defensively oriented teams only need one physical wall and one special wall anyway.

I also don't really agree that having to run a second check to something is a waste of a teamslot, hindering you from covering more threats. It can be the case, but not always. An example here would be the Amoongbro core, both of which can check Keldeo and don't have redundant typing with each other, allowing one to check a variety of threats that the other can't.

I was about to write out a long post about the difference between darm's case and keldeo's case.

But then I realized that doing so is stupid, because it is incredibly obvious (and I even pointed a main reason out in my original post).

So yay!

 

[GaviGator]

I think Keldeo is broken. Calm Mind, Hydro Pump, HP Ghost all of this makes it broken. Its a rain abuser.

 

[Nglittleguy]

Voting to ban. The damage it can deal to teams given ttar pursuit or rain boosted hydro pump is just ridiculous. CM set can theoretically take on even dedicated counters if they don't have a phazing move.

 

[TCTphantom]

Well, Keldeo us surely the biggest threat out there. To quote myself, Keldeo is broken due to secret sword, it being so low risk to support, and it being able to choose its counters with Hidden Power. Will show post from evaluating thread to show what i mean...

"Keldeo is without a doubt the scariest pokemon in practice. I see Keldeo's threatening status is due to three main factors, its power under rain, Secret Sword, and its unique use of Hidden Power. Its power with its Hydro Pumps under rain is obscene, being able to OHKO or 2HKO most of the metagame. Secret Sword, while being a fantastic attack, makes Keldeo almost a mixed attacker, and shortening its pool of counters. However, its unique usage of Hidden Power pushes it over the edge, as between HP Ghost, Bug, and Electric, (don't know about Grass, thoughts on it?), it can remove a check or counter from its feared list, as checks such as Jellicent, Celebi, and Gyarados cant wall it after hazards, or are OHKOed in Gyarados case. Keldeo can also be many things, from a Expert Belt lure that works great as a wallbreaker, a devastating choice user, or even a scarce yet powerful Calm Mind set. Personally, I see it as leaning towards broken, but I see this is going to be 50/50 likely...

252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 269-317 (66.58 - 78.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is supposed to be the best counter to Keldeo.

252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 365-432 (103.39 - 122.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 175-209 (43.42 - 51.86%) -- 72.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost/Bug vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 146-173 (48.34 - 57.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, how do the best special walls hold up to Keldeo's onslaught?

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 214-253 (52.97 - 62.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 658-778 (100.92 - 119.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So Jirachi can't switch in, while Blissey will just die...

Also, it is rather easy to remove almost all of Keldeo's counters, save for the likes of Amoongus, via Pursuit trapping. Scizor and TTar are both exceptional at Psychic slaughtering, with Scizor having great synergy with Keldeo under rain.

Will I be upset if Keldeo is not suspected? Yes. Will I be upset if Keldeo is not banned, yet suspected? Not at all, it was the community's choice to let it "rain" supreme, but at least it was put up for debate. I personally also see its complete power and destruction combined with unique traits as a little suspicious, but thats just me..."

 

[MoosyDoosy]

My thoughts on Keldeo is that it's very underwhelming in rain, and is only a true threat with rain support. But when one has to take into account the fact that Keldeo is able to wield an arsenal of Icy Wind, Hidden Power, and Secret Sword, the little pony becomes quite threatening. I really like Keldeo and I've enjoyed using him, but when I actually face the truth, I can see that the pony is able to wreck teams with correct prediction, and under rain, becomes a mere Hydro Pump spammer. It's even able to completely destroy its checks with its arsenal, and the remainder can be wiped out with proper team support. It's also able to laugh at SR, increasing its amount of usage. No, when one goes to the heart of the matter, Keldeo needs to go. I hope that everyone realizes this as well and votes to ban. Thanks to those who read this. :)

 

[CrobatFTW]

My two cents: Keldeo is not broken. It honestly has the movepool of a door. I'm serious though. It has 4 maybe 5 usable attacks (Hydro Pump / Surf / Sacred Sword / Hidden Power / and maybe Icy Wind). When I have suggested Icy Wind as a way of offense and not for speed lowering abilities (like this is sometimes useful on Gengar due to the speed reduction it provides) you know it has a horrible movepool.

It's only boosting move is Calm Mind. It's decent, but it's susceptible to Physical attacks and loses to many Choice Scarf Users and perhaps Banded Mach Punch Breloom after some entry hazards.

Once you know what set Keldeo is running, it isn't that hard to defeat.

Scarf sets are walled by Jellicent, even ones with HP Ghost.

252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 146-174 (36.22 - 43.17%) -- 97.75% chance to 3HKO

In some cases, HP Ghost is a 4HKO, and Jellicent has access to Recover. A Toxic can easily be set up on it, Shadow Ball could be spammed so it loses HP, whatever.

Even Celebii walls it if it has HP Ghost, which it will run for Hidden Power most of the time, other than Ice, in my experience. Only once have I seen HP Bug and Celebii lived it actually well. With Giga Drain, Celebii more often than not could take two HP Bug attacks. Gyarados also can check this set as long as Keldeo doesn't have HP Electric, and I have never seen one run that. With HP Electric, all of a sudden Celebii counters it without fail.

252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 112-132 (27.72 - 32.67%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 224-264 (55.44 - 65.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Calm Mind sets are still walled by Jellicent, as you can set a Toxic up on it while you can live some attacks at +1 and +2. Then send in a fast sweeper or scarf user after some turns of Toxic damage and it's gone. Celebii still is a good wall to this set since it has access to Thunder Wave and Giga Drain to gradually recover health, even at +1. From there, it isn't hard to revenge kill with a not Ferrothorn speed attacker.

Specs sets can be an issue, but Hidden Power Ghost is still just a 3HKO on Jellicent. It's susceptible to fast sweepers like Latios and choice scarfers now

Swords Dance Keldeo can pose a problem for nope

All in all, without the Rain, Keldeo is 100% not broken. I agree in the Rain Keldeo can be a problem, but that's what Gastrodon and Jellicent, and I guess to some degree Latias are for. Every team should be prepared to check a rain team with something. People must consider rain teams when building a team. This doesn't mean ban Keldeo because some people don't have enough foresight to prepare to fight a rain team XD. But obviously the weather discussion doesn't really involve Keldeo and weather in OU is another discussion so I won't go into that.

Edit: Upon some further thinking, Starmie also checks this thing really well. It's faster and has both Thunderbolt and Psyshock to scare it away.

Well that's my seemingly well thought out two cents.

 

[TehRaquaza2094]

Remember when Smogon battlers knew how to deal with Hyper Offensive teams? Pepperidge farm remembers. But seriously, Keldeo is easy to counter and beat if you're a somewhat competent battler
Specs forces you to get locked into a move
Scarf makes you lose power
Calm Mind can be stalled by special walls, and like Bats up above said, Celebi can live hits relatively well
Swords Dance Keldeo, has literally 3 moves it can muster up that are usable, and even then, how are you gonna beat celebi if you only have waterfall/aqua jet/CC?

All in all, Keldeo is hardly a threat. Oh, and for the, but he's too powerful in rain, argument, why in a tier that has 1/4 rain teams, are you not preparing for rain?

That's my two cents.

 

[MikeDawg]

This thread went to shit real fast...

In any case, I just about have normal reqs and have started the suspect ladder and I very much enjoy it. I've been able to switch celebi => rotom-w and latias => latios to fill in some holes and there haven't been any negative consequences! It's great.

GTFO, Keldeo

 

[Muddy Rain]

People say that Keldeo is not broken because it does not have a good movepool. It does not need a vast movepool. It needs Hydro Pump. Secret Sword. Icy Wind. and Hidden Power. That is all it needs to be broken. This thing needs to go.

 

[Sound]

Remember when Smogon battlers knew how to deal with Hyper Offensive teams? Pepperidge farm remembers. But seriously, Keldeo is easy to counter and beat if you're a somewhat competent battler
Specs forces you to get locked into a move
Scarf makes you lose power
Calm Mind can be stalled by special walls, and like Bats up above said, Celebi can live hits relatively well
Swords Dance Keldeo, has literally 3 moves it can muster up that are usable, and even then, how are you gonna beat celebi if you only have waterfall/aqua jet/CC?

All in all, Keldeo is hardly a threat. Oh, and for the, but he's too powerful in rain, argument, why in a tier that has 1/4 rain teams, are you not preparing for rain?

That's my two cents.

SD Keldeo? That isn't a thing. At all. Notwhatsoever. Also, you missed E-Belt (which is a fantastic set).

It's not just preparing for Rain. Keldeo restricts team building quite a bit. You either need to carry A. A fully invested wall from the pool of counters and hope to god the Keldeo you face isn't one of the ones that beats it. B. Carry a scarfer that is faster than 108 speed.

I have already played a few matches on the Keldeo ladder, and so far, I'm not liking Keldeo. Please keep in mind that I'm still low on the ladder, and have played little BW2 OU. I was using a quick Custap weatherless HO team, which used E-Belt Keldeo (H-Pump, SS, Icy Wind, HP Bug) as a lure. It preformed fabulously. It wasn't just a lure, even without specs and rain, it was still punching holes. To check Keldeo, I was using Scarf-gar (so I wouldn't need to use another spot to spin block). Yeah, I had to sac something to get it in, but hey, HO. Anyway, it did the job. I was slightly annoyed at points, though. Any team carrying a Starmie and a Keldeo was a pain, since I wouldn't be able to keep my hazards. Also, I felt it lacked power.

I really don't think I've seen Keldeo used against me enough to come to a decision. However, simply from me using it, I would lean towards banning it.

 

[Viktor24]

Noob question but, what should I do in order to vote after getting the required Glicko for voting?

 

[Lady Alex]

Some of these posts are depressing...

My thought on Keldeo is, as it has been for a couple months now, that it's unhealthy for the meta and needs to go. People who throw around comments like "Just learn to check it. If you're keldeo weak, you're just not building good teams, etc." are being silly. You're forced into selecting from a small pool of defensive checks (that Keldeo can still pressure very effectively) or it's going to really open you up. No one is saying that you can't play around it, because that simply isn't true. It's rare to encounter a team that is utterly demolished by it because everyone is forced to run one of its checks specifically for Keldeo. I don't expect much to be said that hasn't already been said in the original thread, so I doubt I'll be convinced that it isn't banworthy. Can't wait to get rid of it.

 

[haunter]

Noob question but, what should I do in order to vote after getting the required Glicko for voting?

It's clearly stated in the OP. Acquire the required rating and deviation on both the ladders and take a screenshot. Then wait for the identification thread to be posted.

Also, thank you guys for shitting up this thread so fast.

 

[ciaranroy]

You can't just say "Keldeo isn't broken because it can be countered". Almost every Pokemon can be countered. Genesect was completely walled by Heatran, didn't make it any less broken. I disagree with the sentiment that we shouldn't ban things just because its apparently "bad" to ban a lot of things. If its broken, then we ban it. Simple as that. Sure, Jellicent walls it almost effortlessly, but everything that isn't immune to Water or has a resistance AND titanic special bulk is being decimated by Hydro Pump. This thing is so unhealthy for the metagame its ridiculous. It restricts teambuilding in a way not seen before, or at least for a long time. You are forced to run at least two strong checks to even stand a chance against it. Also, revenge killing is completely out of the question unless you happen to be running something like Scarf Lati@s. Which again, restricts teambuilding. So you can't just say "any decent player knows how to handle it", because if that was true, then the council wouldn't entertain a suspect test, and the pro-ban side wouldn't have so much support.