Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Roadsigns]

I did say have both, right? You can have analyses assume Level 100 OU since that's clearly the Smogon standard, and people playing Level 50 OU can modify their EV spreads accordingly, if even necessary at all (sometimes it is but for 4/252/252 etc. spreads it isn't)

Also it's not JUST me who has a problem with spending lots of time leveling everything up to 100; I apologize if that's what you got from that but there are other people who don't have the time to do that.

You could already adjust your EVs according to level 100 analyses, and just test it on console. I'm really not sure I understand the point of creating an entirely different metagame for very slight conveniences for a small minority.

Especially if you're not even trying to get new analyses for level 50 pokemon.

 

[Manaphy]

No, saying "you can't bring Arceus to OU" is a rule. Saying "don't use Double team" is a rule.

Making Spore fail on simulators where it otherwise would work on cartridge is altering a core game mechanic.

But that goes against the game mechanics as well, even in the games where Sleep clause was allowed, the move just did not do anything and it was up to the player to not be stupid.

Actually, according to Smogon rules, if Sleep Clause is in affect in in-game battles, and another Sleep move is used, that person instantly loses.

So yeah, still following the game perfectly.

I don't like repeating myself maybe 3 minutes after I made that post. We follow the game mechanics just fine.

 

[rockspet]

Really, why do people care about wi-fi? I've never battled online, I just do it with my friends in person. The simulator simulates the game. If we cared about wi-fi, it would be called Global Link Showdown. Lvl 100 is the basis of pokemon. Be the best you can be. It's kind of silly to make the change to lvl 50 because its unnecessary.

 

[PKMN1]

I don't like repeating myself maybe 3 minutes after I made that post. We follow the game mechanics just fine.

umm, what does this have to do with explaining to the person EXACTLY why the sim does not just stop you from using the move.

 

[BKC]

I don't like repeating myself maybe 3 minutes after I made that post. We follow the game mechanics just fine.

Er, no. When you sleep a second pkmn on wifi... the game continues. When you sleep a second pkmn on the sims... the move fails.

 

[Roadsigns]

Er, no.

When you sleep a second pkmn on wifi... the game continues. When you sleep a second pkmn on the sims... the move fails.

That's the sim, though, not Smogon's rules. Despite how closely they work together, they're not the same.

 

[PKMN1]

Er, no.

When you sleep a second pkmn on wifi... the game continues. When you sleep a second pkmn on the sims... the move fails.

yeah, any game that enforced the sleep clause (Stadium 1 and 2 for example) does exactly what the sim does, make the move fail. We were pointing out that is what actually happens when the game enforces the sleep clause and that the Sim is following actual game mechanics.

It is just common courtesy to use the sleep and double team clause during wi-fi battles, has nothing to do with Smogon or Game Freak (though Gf started the sleep one and Smogon possibly started the double team one)

 

[TROP]

Am I the only one that thinks that only battle mechanics should be the only thing that must be followed at 100% on the sims? Grinding the elite 4 with animations off and with easy lucky eggs and the broken exp all, it is really easy and fast and probably takes about 2 hours at most for all of them to get to lv 100. And this is ignoring potentially traded pokemon and exp powers.

And for anyone that thinks getting things like Wish Chansey is easy ingame:

Hide

good luck getting one of those legal without cheating devices, pokegen and a fake gts, or an emulator.

 

[Manaphy]

Er, no. When you sleep a second pkmn on wifi... the game continues. When you sleep a second pkmn on the sims... the move fails.

You guys are silly. According to smogon rules, if a person violates Sleep clause over an In-game battle, They INSTANTLY lose!

What happens after has no importance because they would've lost.

Please actually read what I say before quoting me.

 

[SkaterTrainer]

The only argument I've seen that makes sense FOR 100 is that people will have to relearn max stats. I understand that change is a big thing but honestly, do it really effect it THAT much?? I understand sticking to our roots but the difference is really minimal. I understand that its emulating playing with friends and such but most people play online now. It's not gen 3 anymore, we don't have to meet up and link cable. We aren't a wifi community, I get that, but people who are against 50 are just stuck in their ways. Everything will be the same at 50 if it were at 100, why is the number of 100 so crucial to you guys?

 

[Roadsigns]

Because it won't be the same. 2HKOs become OHKOs, Speed Tiers are switched around, and it boosts the power-creep. It's really not that minimal.

The beautiful thing about simulators is that it CAN be like battling your friends via cable link, except you can do it from anywhere in the world. There's no reason that has to change just because GameFreak changed the way wifi battling works.

 

[PKMN1]

You guys are silly. According to smogon rules, if a person violates Sleep clause over an In-game battle, They INSTANTLY lose!

What happens after has no importance because they would've lost.

The game could care less about rules that people follow, and not everyone competitive battler follows smogon. Even then, the Sleep Clause was created by GF in Stadium 1 and 2 and has NOTHING to do with Smogon anyway.

 

[Runic]

You're all arguing semantics. Even if it changes a mechanic, neither it nor anything else in the simulator cannot be manually enforced.

 

[Manaphy]

The game could care less about rules that people follow, and not everyone competitive battler follows smogon. Even then, the Sleep Clause was created by GF in Stadium 1 and 2 and has NOTHING to do with Smogon anyway.

The creation doesn't matter; and 'not everyone follows our rules' is a moot point; the point I'm making is that we follow the games perfectly in the simulator via our ruleset.

 

[Roadsigns]

The game could care less about rules that people follow, and not everyone competitive battler follows smogon. Even then, the Sleep Clause was created by GF in Stadium 1 and 2 and has NOTHING to do with Smogon anyway.

They're talking about Smogon rules because you're talking about the way SMOGON DOES SIMULATION.

If there is a way to make Smogon more relevant to this conversation, I'm really not sure what it could be.

The whole point of the conversation is to decide the standard for Smogon.

 

[rockspet]

The game could care less about rules that people follow, and not everyone competitive battler follows smogon. Even then, the Sleep Clause was created by GF in Stadium 1 and 2 and has NOTHING to do with Smogon anyway.

So we should just remove all of smogon tiering forever?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

If you want to read up on it, Smogon has been debating the implications of the current sleep clause for probably a decade now. This is the latest iteration of that debate.

Honestly though can we move on from this, it is kind of topic to the thread. It is only vaguely related to the topic in the way that is is something in which simulators don't have to the game exactly, and there are a few practical reasons as to why, but that is literally an entirely different debate.

 

[Tribute]

I feel like people are talking about wifi battles as against randoms.

"simulating wifi battles" its a given it means wifi per smogon clauses/tiers

 

[PKMN1]

*head desk* I was saying that last post to the person because he seemed to be implying the rules apply everywhere and no matter what, I AGREE with the sleep clause and am happy the way the simulator does it becasue that is EXACTLY the way the Stadium game implemented it ( Though i do like the idea of finally getting rid of the tier system since it stops creativity and makes new players think only 15-20 pokemon are actually any good)

 

[Sprocket]

This is an interesting discussion, and I'm surprised it wasn't brought up back in Gen V.

Nintendo has clearly established meta games in Gen V and Gen VI, and pseudo-established meta games in Gen IV.

Smogon is not Nintendo. There is no reason why Smogon should follow the same metagame that Nintendo has laid out. If we did, there would be no reason to exist and make our own metagame. Smogon's metagame has always existed as its own thing, regardless of what Nintendo's grand vision is.

I voted for level 50, but it is merely for convenience sake when I do cartridge play. Its not terribly hard to reach level 100 in XY, nor is it hard to breed flawless IV'd Pokemon and EV train in any generation, its just time consuming. Convenience shouldn't be the primary motivation for changing from 100 to 50; there needs to be some other good reason. Also keep in mind that the auto-level 50 option over Wi-Fi prevents things like "Level 1 Endeavor" from being a thing; other official metagames like VGC and BW PGL do not auto-level up, merely auto-level down.

 

[666lumberjack]

The only argument I've seen that makes sense FOR 100 is that people will have to relearn max stats. I understand that change is a big thing but honestly, do it really effect it THAT much?? I understand sticking to our roots but the difference is really minimal. I understand that its emulating playing with friends and such but most people play online now. It's not gen 3 anymore, we don't have to meet up and link cable. We aren't a wifi community, I get that, but people who are against 50 are just stuck in their ways. Everything will be the same at 50 if it were at 100, why is the number of 100 so crucial to you guys?

The very point of this discussion is that things are not the same at level 50. There are metagame inplications. Somebody earlier pointed out that CB Terrakion 2HKOs Hippowdon at level 50 but does not at level 100. That's the difference between countering and not countering a very popular Pokemon - how is this not a big deal. It's very easy to look at the difference of ~5% and say "oh, that doesn't really matter, it's only small". But Pokemon is a multiplicative system and even small changes can become a big deal amplified through several steps. It means SDef Zapdos has a chance to die to Landorus's HP Ice in two hits after SR (yes, with the BP nerf) rather than three at level 50, but not at level 100. This isn't an irrelevant change, it has actual metagame implications, and it would be foolish to ignore them in making our decision purely to better emulate something which has never been the focus of Smogon.

 

[Roadsigns]

I feel like people are talking about wifi battles as against randoms.

"simulating wifi battles" its a given it means wifi per smogon clauses/tiers

And the reply that everybody has been making to this argument is that Smogon is not simulating wifi, it's simulating pokemon. The focus is not on the wifi meta, but on the capabilities established by the actual games themselves in terms of what is possible to battle with.

Read: The best you can do with what is possible in the games.

 

[SkaterTrainer]

The very point of this discussion is that things are not the same at level 50. There are metagame inplications. Somebody earlier pointed out that CB Terrakion 2HKOs Hippowdon at level 50 but does not at level 100. That's the difference between countering and not countering a very popular Pokemon - how is this not a big deal. It's very easy to look at the difference of ~5% and say "oh, that doesn't really matter, it's only small". But Pokemon is a multiplicative system and even small changes can become a big deal amplified through several steps. It means SDef Zapdos has a chance to die to Landorus's HP Ice in two hits after SR (yes, with the BP nerf) rather than three at level 50, but not at level 100. This isn't an irrelevant change, it has actual metagame implications, and it would be foolish to ignore them in making our decision purely to better emulate something which has never been the focus of Smogon.

Then I stand corrected.

 

[Absolete]

Much of the arguments for level 100 seem kind of like a chess piece argument to me.

"Well, I mean, this 2 dollar thrift store plastic chess set IS the same game as this $200 Staunton set, but it's just not the same to play on..."

If you're a real lover of chess, you'll accept that the game is where the beauty lies, in the intricacies and strategy, not in the shiny pieces.

Yes, I do own a $200 chess set, that doesn't mean I'm not equally as happy to play on my portable $8 one.

I think the level cap should be 50, as that's how the actual cartridge does it. It links ALL parts of the meta, not just the one we think of here on Smogon. This includes Battle Maison, VGC, Nintendo Tournaments, and in game Wi-Fi. There's no reason to have it be 100 simply because it's "more satisfying to have them be level 100."

 

[jas61292]

The very point of this discussion is that things are not the same at level 50. There are metagame inplications. Somebody earlier pointed out that CB Terrakion 2HKOs Hippowdon at level 50 but does not at level 100. That's the difference between countering and not countering a very popular Pokemon - how is this not a big deal. It's very easy to look at the difference of ~5% and say "oh, that doesn't really matter, it's only small". But Pokemon is a multiplicative system and even small changes can become a big deal amplified through several steps. It means SDef Zapdos has a chance to die to Landorus's HP Ice in two hits after SR (yes, with the BP nerf) rather than three at level 50, but not at level 100. This isn't an irrelevant change, it has actual metagame implications, and it would be foolish to ignore them in making our decision purely to better emulate something which has never been the focus of Smogon.

I've made my main points elsewhere, so I'm not going to make a large post here, but I just want to say that this mindset is very much not what we should be using to make this decision. Choosing 50 has metagame implications, sure. So does choosing 100. But the fact is THERE IS NO METAGAME YET, so while whatever choice we make will have effects, it won't change anything in the meta. It can't, because the metagame doesn't exist. Yeah, so Zapdos may die to a certain hit at 50 that it would not at 100. But if we choose 50, then in 6th gen, that is always how it was and always how it will be. We are not changing the meta. We are creating it.