Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[Chou Toshio]

Pretty much-- mostly losing so far, but I'm working out the kinks. It's actually surprising how good the synergy of a team like this works; sure it's missing answers to lots of crap, but Psychic types (who bring the heal/lunar dance and screens) also happen to be the Pokemon that destroy fighting types and one-shot Gengar. These are things better suited for the Kang thread though, but it does show off one more potential route for kang abuse.

 

[SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant]

I personally lean towards leaving Mega-Kangaskhan in OU for now, as I feel it would be best to see how the metagame evolves a bit more and see if anyone discovers new ways of handling him. That being said, I wouldn't mind if he went Uber very much.

Edit: I meant to say that Mega-Kangaskhan should definitely be #1 for suspect testing once Pokebank is up.

 

[sidakarya]

I disagree. From what we see of this thread and the Kangaskhan thread I think, we've basically exhausted all options of trying to beat this thing - and we're not doing a good job of it. However, we are finding new and exciting ways to abuse Kang - for example: new Façade mechanics and Kang vs. the World.

 

[noobcubed]

I personally lean towards leaving Mega-Kangaskhan in OU for now, as I feel it would be best to see how the metagame evolves a bit more and see if anyone discovers new ways of handling him. That being said, I wouldn't mind if he went Uber very much.

The problem with this argument is that if you let a broken Pokemon stay the metagame will grow largely around said Pokemon in an unhealthy way. Thus by maintaining something this broken you are actively inhibiting the very evolution that you are relying on to make the problem disappear.

(PS MegaKhan is a she. Not relevant in any way, but...)

 

[Azure Demon]

Dedicated walls don't work well against mixed attackers, more news at 11

The issue at hand is proving that no wall works good against mega kangaskhan with or without PUP. Thanks for helping with that. How about making smart ass comments and just say something smart?

To further my point of mega kanga not getting walled even on it's physical sets without pup. While we could potentially remove it's ability to directly boost it's stats we can not remove it's ability to lower other pokemon's defensive stat through the effect of stacked crunches and with a move slot free mega kangaskhan could actually pack crunch and sucker punch if it wanted so it didn't have to scrap the def lowering for priority. Funny thing is before a set like this would get check by skarm or even heatran with a balloon

Crunch, sucker punch, return, earthquake or fire blast.

 

[Shurtugal]

I'm telling you right now. I said it in my previous post.

Kanga is going to be banned.
I am bummed, because I like it a lot, both fighting it, and when I use it on my team.

However, I know 100% that after that, the next poke coming in, is going to be Mega Lucario, with its Adaptability. Then all of you people who were against Mega Kang, are gonna be against Mega Lucario.

In time, Mega Lucario is going to be banned.

After that, we are going to chill for a while, and everyone is going to scramble to find the next Mega Kang/Lucario, and it will probably end up being Mega- Mawile or mega pinsir.

This is gonna be a never ending cycle of eliminating the Megas, until you are left with nothing to show for the new mechanics of Gen VI.

Might as well just import all of the new pokemon into Gen5 OU, ban Megas, and call it a day.

The game has Mega-Evolved, and Smogon needs to also! Complex bans were avoided? Well, it's become a more complex game. GROW. No need to send cool pokemon back to the land of CI(Completely Ignored) just because of one move that is the source of all of these +2 calculations and fear mongering. I have never faced a Kanga at +0 and said to myself, OH well, game over!

Pokemon that were once completely ignored got a new lease on life with Mega Stones. If one move means a pokemon can never be used again, ban the move dammit, don't ban the pokemon that is otherwise viable in OU. You have banned certain abilities on Pokemon, why can't you ban certain moves? It's not hard to program it in the simulator, and it's not like we are gonna suddenly have 100 pokemon we have to ban moves on.

Think forward!

This is not true. M-Lucario will only be banned if it is found to be broken. (I personally am 50 / 50 on that right now because it certainly has checks and counters, and it can be revenged killed quite easily, and is no where near Kang's level of strength). So no, not everyone who is against Kangs will be against M-Lucario too. I'm certainly undecided that's for sure!

Complex bans are avoided for a reason: it makes the metagame sloppy and messy when we do it. Look at one of ours only Complex Bans in Aldaron's Drizzle + SS suggestion! That ruined BW since Drizzle ended up dictating the next few suspects for like a year (Thundurus / Manaphy / Tornadus-T / Keldeo / etc.) and they were all found (except for Keldeo) broken because of the drizzle support. Smogon even admitted that Drizzle deserved suspect, but because BW had pretty much ended, that we would end up keeping Drizzle. (Drizzle also has +6 evasion in BW so...)

So the one time we did it we messed the entire metagame up: no more complex bans please.

Banning a move + Pokemon is downright retarded: think of the effects it would have on the metagame and suspect testing in general. It would be a catastrophe.



EDIT: Also, you can leave Pokemon in the metagame for a bit to see how it develops. You don't need a suspect test every goddamn month so while the metagame might stay "unhealthy" it does work out. I'm not saying this to postpone Kang, only to point this out in the future. PO bans to quickly and Smogon bans to slowly imo. We need a steady, consistent pace.

 

[LordRandomness]

Pretty much-- mostly losing so far, but I'm working out the kinks. It's actually surprising how good the synergy of a team like this works; sure it's missing answers to lots of crap, but Psychic types (who bring the heal/lunar dance and screens) also happen to be the Pokemon that destroy fighting types and one-shot Gengar. These are things better suited for the Kang thread though, but it does show off one more potential route for kang abuse.

Is it being discussed there/are there more replays there? It's kind of hilarious.

I disagree. From what we see of this thread and the Kangaskhan thread I think, we've basically exhausted all options of trying to beat this thing - and we're not doing a good job of it. However, we are finding new and exciting ways to abuse Kang - for example: new Façade mechanics and Kang vs. the World.

I'm not 100% convinced of this, although that might just be from not knowing the metagame and what won't be dead weight in other scenarios well enough. Still, I feel like options like Focus Blast users, Prankster, stronger physical walls, and possibly Foul Play haven't been entirely explored yet. Again, this is probably more my personality talking than any logical basis but I've just got this niggling feeling...

 

[KaminaSan]

Pretty much-- mostly losing so far, but I'm working out the kinks. It's actually surprising how good the synergy of a team like this works; sure it's missing answers to lots of crap, but Psychic types (who bring the heal/lunar dance and screens) also happen to be the Pokemon that destroy fighting types and one-shot Gengar. These are things better suited for the Kang thread though, but it does show off one more potential route for kang abuse.

Why didn't you show them http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69374352
or
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69404561

You lost to BOTH teams in here that had any form of recoil damage giving pokemon, and the only way you came close to winning was by healing up Kanga multiple times at the cost of your other pokemon's lives....

I feel like this just shows how easily it can be countered. All the other teams you won against had absolutely NO answer to Kanga.

I know you were trying to prove a point, but the proof is in the replays.

 

[Pyritie]

Funny thing is that ferrothorn is a relaxed natured meaning it was a mixed wall...

It's a x4 110 BP move coming off of 60 SpA (90 if you include parental bond). What were you expecting?

 

[LordRandomness]

Why didn't you show them http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69374352
or
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69404561

You lost to BOTH teams in here that had any form of recoil damage giving pokemon, and the only way you came close to winning was by healing up Kanga multiple times at the cost of your other pokemon's lives....

I feel like this just shows how easily it can be countered. All the other teams you won against had absolutely NO answer to Kanga.

I know you were trying to prove a point, but the proof is in the replays.

I think "working out the kinks" covers this. I mean being able to 1v6 by itself is hardly a requirement for something to be broken, and being able to win in this way at all is a fairly impressive feat for a single Pokemon. I imagine the plan is to use the remaining 2~3 slots to clean up other Kanga answers and such at some point in the future.

 

[Hawky]

Is it being discussed there/are there more replays there? It's kind of hilarious.



I'm not 100% convinced of this, although that might just be from not knowing the metagame and what won't be dead weight in other scenarios well enough. Still, I feel like options like Focus Blast users, Prankster, stronger physical walls, and possibly Foul Play haven't been entirely explored yet. Again, this is probably more my personality talking than any logical basis but I've just got this niggling feeling...

Plenty of posts about how to kill it.
Not enough posts of how to switch in on it, only about revenge killing it.
Prankster sableye has been discussed many times, strong physical walls like skarmory, gliscor, heatran, ferrothorn, even lugia has been discussed.
Foul play on mandibuzz and klefki have been covered as well.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Why didn't you show them http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69374352
or
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69404561

You lost to BOTH teams in here that had any form of recoil damage giving pokemon, and the only way you came close to winning was by healing up Kanga multiple times at the cost of your other pokemon's lives....

I feel like this just shows how easily it can be countered. All the other teams you won against had absolutely NO answer to Kanga.

I know you were trying to prove a point, but the proof is in the replays.

His opponent's team was specifically designed to handle Mega Kanga...

 

[Tachnicla]

Why didn't you show them http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69374352
or
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69404561

You lost to BOTH teams in here that had any form of recoil damage giving pokemon, and the only way you came close to winning was by healing up Kanga multiple times at the cost of your other pokemon's lives....

I feel like this just shows how easily it can be countered. All the other teams you won against had absolutely NO answer to Kanga.

I know you were trying to prove a point, but the proof is in the replays.

Thanks. Two passive damage Pokemon in the first match, even though Mega Kangaskhan did fine.

The second match with a Defensive Gengar and Rocky Helmet Skarmory. Great.

Besides, why are you relying on anecdotal evidence instead of freaking calcs?

 

[sidakarya]

Also, that stall team would've been utterly obliterated, had Kangaskhan used Crunch on Gengar (which I don't think I've seen used; could be one of the "fixes" to Kang v. the World)

 

[Azure Demon]

It's a x4 110 BP move coming off of 60 SpA (90 if you include parental bond). What were you expecting?

Not expecting someone to actually post here to have something intellectual to contribute to the thread instead of a dumb ass post that gives nothing to the discussion, but apparently that's too much to ask for. The point if was proving is that mega kangaskhan had a way around the premier walls of OU even without PUP. If fire blast gives him ways around the bulkiest steel types (primary resist/walls that resist his stab) and return can still 2 hit kill a mandibuzz max hp and def after rocks my point was proven.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Okay, I'm going to try and go at another angle to convince people. Let's look at Kangaskhan. It's a kangaroo. WITH A BABY. It's also a marsupial, a subgroup of the mammal line. And mammals have the characteristic of being very protective of their offspring. So Kangaskhan will do ANYTHING to protect its baby. That involves turning into a bulky ass monster that destroys everything with a CB's power, but can switch moves. We cannot defeat it. It is too powerful. It is a mammal. Science.

 

[LordRandomness]

Plenty of posts about how to kill it.
Not enough posts of how to switch in on it, only about revenge killing it.
Prankster sableye has been discussed many times, strong physical walls like skarmory, gliscor, heatran, ferrothorn, even lugia has been discussed.
Foul play on mandibuzz and klefki have been covered as well.

Yeah, I guess needing to switch something in with correct prediction is a bit harsh (although Sucker Punch does make it easier).

 

[Hawky]

Okay, I'm going to try and go at another angle to convince people. Let's look at Kangaskhan. It's a kangaroo. WITH A BABY. It's also a marsupial, a subgroup of the mammal line. And mammals have the characteristic of being very protective of their offspring. So Kangaskhan will do ANYTHING to protect its baby. That involves turning into a bulky ass monster that destroys everything with a CB's power, but can switch moves. We cannot defeat it. It is too powerful. It is a mammal. Science.

It also inherits the name of "Khan" who pretty much conquered the world in the 12th Century.

Yeah, I guess needing to switch something in with correct prediction is a bit harsh (although Sucker Punch does make it easier).

If you fail to predict then your pokemon pretty much dies.
If Kangaskhan fails to predict, well its not game breaking.

 

[Mizticall]

Whilst I do think that this is broken (due to its good speed, crazy hitting power and above average bulk) I really do feel like Lucarionite should have been suspected first because I feel like that has less counters than Mega Kanga. Oh well, either way I think Mega Kanga should be banned because it is extremely difficult to wall and revenge-kill, and therefore is unhealthily centralising.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Why didn't you show them http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-69374352
or
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-69404561

You lost to BOTH teams in here that had any form of recoil damage giving pokemon, and the only way you came close to winning was by healing up Kanga multiple times at the cost of your other pokemon's lives....

I feel like this just shows how easily it can be countered. All the other teams you won against had absolutely NO answer to Kanga.

I know you were trying to prove a point, but the proof is in the replays.

As others said, the fact that I said, "working out the kinks" covers it-- I'm still playing with the design, and my win percentage with that team is only going up. Instead of expecting something as ridiculous as a flawless win percentage, maybe you should think about how any player experimenting with a new team concept would be losing without care by play testing on the lower ladder.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

One question I'd like answered before Mega Khan is banned is which Khan is actually the Mega Khan? The Baby or The Mother? Or are both the baby and the mother Mega Kangaskhan and the title of "Mega Kangaskhan" refer to both of them at once.

 

[Soul Fly]

One question I'd like answered before Mega Khan is banned is which Khan is actually the Mega Khan? The Baby or The Mother? Or are both the baby and the mother Mega Kangaskhan and the title of "Mega Kangaskhan" refer to both of them at once.

I don't even........ How is this even relevant.

The best possible serious answer to the question will be that we treat Both as a single entity "Mega Kangaskhan" which we get upon Mega Evolving with Kangaskhanite.
The child along with it's excrutiating existential dilemma is an aesthetic issue and has nothing to do with the competitive aspect of the Pokemon which is under discussion here.

 

[Pyritie]

What if we take cobalion and use him as a tank, taking advantage of his 129 base def??

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 81-94 (25 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 42-49 (13 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock (and gives Cobalion +2 Atk)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 159-189 (49.2 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 84-102 (26 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 160-189 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 84-99 (26 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 423-498 (130.9 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and in return...

144 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 330-390 (94 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 566-668 (161.2 - 190.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 422-500 (120.2 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You need 112 speed EVs on him to outspeed adamant 252 Speed kanga, with the 144 being what's left after dumping 252 into Def.

Can survive anything at +0 and non-SE moves at +2, and if you switch him in on a crunch, the +2 you get from justified will OHKO kanga back.

And if you manage to burn her beforehand...

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 211-249 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Could even run a balloon or weakness policy on him if you can switch him in on a +0 kanga

Anyone tried anything like this before?

EDIT: forgot parental bond activates justified twice

 

[LordRandomness]

If you fail to predict then your pokemon pretty much dies.
If Kangaskhan fails to predict, well its not game breaking.

Yeah, that does make a fair bit of sense. And there really isn't anything that can come in 100% safely, is there? I guess that's what happens when base power finally gets pushed too far...

EDIT: Although some things can come in on PuP relatively safely since they won't take enough damage from a +0 attack to be overly threatened.

 

[preserve]

There's two things I have to mention. People are arguing that its checks require you to lose a pokemon. That may not always be true as you can volt switch or u turn on it and get switch initiative. Either way most people won't switch kangaskhan into any attack because they want it as full health as possible which means that if you want to come in on a free switch, you either have to volt switch/u-turn yourself of have on of your pokemon die as well. So it goes both ways. And I just found of another way to somewhat check it. I haven't tried it out so it's just in theory. A scarfed pangoro with party shot or if it's scarfed it can just outspeed and kill it. People can complain that that they don't like bringing in obscure pokes just to handle one pokemon, but doing so actually brings diversity to the meta game, something that people so desperately complain that the meta game lacks. Besides, I can see a scarf pangoro actually being decent. As I mentioned before, Kangaskan's biggest flaw is that it needs to rely on power up punch to really be successful and this opens up the opportunity to damage it and revenge kill it with another pokemon or but a status on it.

Another thing I heard is this thing about team support. Many threatening pokemon can use team support to weaken it's counters to enable it to sweep, so I don't think this is a good argument.