Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[bioober]

I was close to using BoldCaps on you because even power drills aren't sufficient enough to get through your skull. Kangaskhan has perfect coverage with Return, Crunch/Sucker Punch, Earthquake, and Power-Up Punch. If Power-Up Punch were to be removed for some reason, replace with Fire move and PRESTO!



What he said.

I used a picture earlier explaining how I feel about this thread and those that don't listen. I won't repeat it again, but you should honestly know what you're saying BEFORE posting.



Oh the irony...

Let's look at the moves Kangaskhan would normally use.

Power-Up Punch
Crunch
Sucker Punch
Earthquake
Fire Punch
Return

Assuming Return and Power-Up Punch are staples, this leaves us with only two available move slots. Which are usually the combination of Sucker Punch/Earthquake, Sucker Punch/Crunch, Crunch/Earthquake.

The set lacking Sucker Punch can easily be taken out by faster Fighting Pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Earthquake can be easily countered by any Flying/Levitating pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Crunch can be countered by steel types that can deal enough damage back.

 

[bioober]

Unfortunately bioober, you came to the wrong neighborhood. Especially by naming mewtwo at all in this thread. I wonder what carnage kanga will wreck in ubers.

I didn't name mewtwo, Shadowmario did.

 

[Azure Demon]

How many MKangas run Fire Blast? Honestly, I've NEVER encountered one. Kanga runs some combination of Fake Out/Return/EQ/Crunch/SuckerPunch/Power up Punch. The outliers might run Brick Break to shatter screens. It's not worth wasting a moveslot for a Special attack, honestly.

Actually it is seeing as it allows it to break past skarmory, ferrothorn, gorgeist, cobalion, scizor, and steelix no issue what so ever.
I've seen quite a few running fire blast myself to test how effect it could be without PUP and it's still really strong.lol

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers

Let's look at the moves Kangaskhan would normally use.

Power-Up Punch
Crunch
Sucker Punch
Earthquake
Fire Punch
Return

Assuming Return and Power-Up Punch are staples, this leaves us with only two available move slots. Which are usually the combination of Sucker Punch/Earthquake, Sucker Punch/Crunch, Crunch/Earthquake.

The set lacking Sucker Punch can easily be taken out by faster Fighting Pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Earthquake can be easily countered by any Flying/Levitating pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Crunch can be countered by steel types that can deal enough damage back.

And ummm which one of these faster fighting pokemon would we be switching into kangaskhan today?

Lucario? Nope! Terrakion he is bulky right?! Not bulky enough, eq no boost ohko. But azure surely keldeo could do it!? Nope, sorry man keldeo would die to a return.

So please tell me which fast fighting type counters him because I'm hell of interested to know.

 

[PathofEro]

I'd like to say that my Rhyperior is a decent counter with an impish nature, it even does well with an adamant nature.( I run only 130 HP due to it needing some attacking prowess)
Take a look at these Calcs.
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 130 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 192-228 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 130 HP / 252+ Def Rhyperior: 381-450 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
And while yes, it doesn't tank the hits all so well, it dishes out good damage for a revenge killer to come in and kill too.
126 Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 159-187 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
Critical hit does 237-280 (67.5 - 79.7%)
Also, after sticky web, Rhypherior outspeeds and will most likely 2HKO it.
So in general, it does work well with sticky web but I still believe Kangaskhanite should be banned. Even a physically bulky pokemon like Rhyperior still gets 2HKO'ed. Dammit Gamefreak.

 

[Orga777]

Let's look at the moves Kangaskhan would normally use.

Power-Up Punch
Crunch
Sucker Punch
Earthquake
Fire Punch
Return

Assuming Return and Power-Up Punch are staples, this leaves us with only two available move slots. Which are usually the combination of Sucker Punch/Earthquake, Sucker Punch/Crunch, Crunch/Earthquake.

The set lacking Sucker Punch can easily be taken out by faster Fighting Pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Earthquake can be easily countered by any Flying/Levitating pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Crunch can be countered by steel types that can deal enough damage back.

The problem with this is that if Sucker Punch is missing then that means that the team built for such a minus is going to have Sticky Web, Tailwind, or both, negating your faster fighting types (who still cannot switch in safely), and will then demolish said "check." If it has SP/Crunch/PuP/Return, it covers every possible situation for at least almost half damage for Kanga if anything tries to switch in at any point. To me, M-Kanga is pretty much a Shadow Tagged pokemon since you pretty much NEED to let the pokemon already out die since you can't bring anything in without taking massive damage. Due to Team Preview, it is REALLY easy for Kanga players to see what will... slow it down (not even STOP!) making it completely redundant and countered in no time.

 

[Axe_Raider]

Wobafett can take a +1 return or crunch and ko in return, it can take a +2 if it has the repective resist berry.
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: 561-660 (96 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
The kanga user can get around this by using power up punch, but then it come down to a prediction game as the wobafet user could also use encore to lock the megaskan into power up punch which results in megaskan dying.

 

[NoULyons]

Here is your gorgeist

0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 201-237 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or we can go with this

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers

I mentioned the chance to 2HKO after SR..

Also, I've NEVER seen Fire Blast on MegaKhan, so I don't know what that's all about.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Except that analogy doesn't work at all in relation to MegaKhan.

In chess, the target in question (The king) can only move one square in any direction. Not only that, but once it's checkmated, the game is over no matter what other pieces remain. Sacrificing pieces and weakening your side pays off.

In Gen VI Pokemon OU, the target in question (MegaKhan) is a behemoth that punches massive holes in any team with little to no effort. If you manage to take it out, the game is not over; you now have to deal with its five teammates that will proceed to floor your team, which you allowed to get weakened and abused just to take out one component of another perfectly competent squad.

Chess analogies?

It's pretty simple. MK is the queen and almost every other piece is a pawn waiting to get eaten up because they can never advance far enough to get promoted.

Exaggerations aside, MK is like 2 pokemon bundled into one. You're bringing essentially seven Pokemon into a fight instead of six with MK. doesn't really get any more ridiculous than that

 

[Azure Demon]

I mentioned the chance to 2HKO after SR..

Also, I've NEVER seen Fire Blast on MegaKhan, so I don't know what that's all about.

I have multiple times.lol

Besides it doesn't matter what you have and haven't seen it's about what the pokemon is and is not capable of doing.
I was talking about sludge bomb gengar to a mod last gen and they said they never saw it turned out about 35% of the gengars used had it as a coverage move. He was amazed to say the least.

 

[Azure30]

The difference between Mega Khan and other Ubers like Kyogre is that the other Ubers are either much more powerful without boosting (Kyogre, Deoxys in general) or are much better tanks than Kanga (Giratina, Groudon, Ho-oh, to some extent Lugia) or are much better boosting sweepers (Blaziken, Arceus, Mewtwo).

There's a multitude of options to keep M-Khan down like Sticky Web, Stealth Rock and other hazards and phazing it out so that it can't get in and out scot free, combined with saccing a Pokemon to take it out. This option doesn't exist for many other Ubers like ExtremeKiller Arceus, Kyogre, etcetera. You can even use another Mega like Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X to outspeed and KO.

6v6 Pokemon is a game I often compare to chess. This just brings it closer to chess -- you sacrifice your pieces purposefully to gain board position and win, rather than mindlessly sending out counter after counter. It's not like the metagame is particularly diverse anyway because people just find the next thing that's good and try to break it.

It doesn't matter how well it works in Ubers. So there goes your first paragraph.

'Multitude of options'. Sticky Web, first of all, is a restrictive option thanks to it having miserable distribution with arguably no worthwhile pokemon learning it. Stealth Rock only does neutral damage to it so thats not any more of a problem for it than it would be to any other pokemon. Phazing it out requires moving last unless you're wearing a red card (lol) and I'm not sure theres anything that will survive a neutral hit from it to be able to do that.. and even then.. what have you actually accomplished? If you don't get KO'd you still take an enormous chunk of your life just so you can push Khan out so that it suffers... another 12.5% damage coming back in? lol, okay. Saccing a pokemon to take it out is just wrong.. the correct phrase is 'saccing a pokemon for a CHANCE at taking it out'. Since the pokemon you sacrifice might actually be the pokemon you wanted to keep to prevent the rest of Khans team in check... it can just switch out and let its team handle whatever else... or hell, how about a teammate that wish passes, or screens? Or lets just throw in Jirachi and now it's got all of that in one. How about Cresselia or Smeargle with Lunar Dance? Now all you've done is sacced a pokemon just to technically ruin a pokemon other than Kangaskhan. You gonna run an entire team of suiciders? Just so you know, you lose the battle when all your pokemon faint. Fainting is the worst thing you can do as far as competitive strategy goes. Pinsir isn't even as fast as MKhan unless its mega already and Charizard speed ties and cannot KO so thats just wrong too.

Sacrificing pieces in chess is usually done to force the opponent into moving in a way such that they lose more than you do. This is not a similar case. Mega Kangaskhan can just switch out and you'll be down one less pokemon that may have otherwise been holding other pokemon of Khan's team in check. If you absolutely need more than one pokemon just to have a CHANCE at taking down one pokemon, then it is broken, full stop.

 

[Tressed]

Let's look at the moves Kangaskhan would normally use.

Power-Up Punch
Crunch
Sucker Punch
Earthquake
Fire Punch
Return

Assuming Return and Power-Up Punch are staples, this leaves us with only two available move slots. Which are usually the combination of Sucker Punch/Earthquake, Sucker Punch/Crunch, Crunch/Earthquake.

The set lacking Sucker Punch can easily be taken out by faster Fighting Pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Earthquake can be easily countered by any Flying/Levitating pokemon.
The set using Sucker Punch/Crunch can be countered by steel types that can deal enough damage back.

Nobody runs Kang without Sucker Punch.
Flying / Levitators get Returned, which is enough at +2 to 2HKO Skarmory, who resists it. Alternatively, Sucker Punch.
See above calc with Skarmory for Steel types. Also, PUP allows you to keep boosting. Also, no Steel type that can actually take hits and kill Kanga off fast enough, barring Cobalion, who isn't that good right now.

 

[Azure Demon]

Nobody runs Kang without Sucker Punch.
Flying / Levitators get Returned, which is enough at +2 to 2HKO Skarmory, who resists it. Alternatively, Sucker Punch.
See above calc with Skarmory for Steel types. Also, PUP allows you to keep boosting. Also, no Steel type that can actually take hits and kill Kanga off fast enough, barring Cobalion, who isn't that good right now.

Remember cobalion doesn't even 1 shot with cc

 

[NoULyons]

Covered already. Gourgeist is not even a good check since most run both SP and Crunch these days, and if Kanga is already at even +1, well... Yeah.

How is it gonna get +1 and then not get hit by a WoW? Stays base form, get a PuP on Gourgeist, goes mega next turn Crunch for ~70% then gets WoW'd. Even if Gour is nearly dead, ~15% top end from PuP then ~76% top end for Crunch, -12.5% from 2 turns of leftovers leaves Gour at ~21.5% and MegaKhan with a burn. I'm not sure how this isn't even decently reliable?

I have multiple times.lol

Besides it doesn't matter what you have and haven't seen it's about what the pokemon is and is not capable of doing.
I was talking about sludge bomb gengar to a mod last gen and they said they never saw it turned out about 35% of the gengars used had it as a coverage move. He was amazed to say the least.

I'd say Sludge Bomb Gengar is common enough to not be considered an anomaly, but what % of MegaKhan run Fire Blast? Maybe 10%? Sure if Gourgeist became common it could be run more, but that would take up one of it's precious extra moveslots to open up additional counters(perhaps).

 

[Azure Demon]

How is it gonna get +1 and then not get hit by a WoW? Stays base form, get a PuP on Gourgeist, goes mega next turn Crunch for ~70% then gets WoW'd. Even if Gour is nearly dead, ~15% top end from PuP then ~76% top end for Crunch, -12.5% from 2 turns of leftovers leaves Gour at ~21.5% and MegaKhan with a burn. I'm not sure how this isn't even decently reliable?

Because sr +crunch or fire blast says no. Not to mention (sorry for beating a dead horse guys) mega kangaskhan can have cleric support. Some nice aroma therapy or maybe some relaxing heal bells to clear all that right up and thennnnnn your gorgeist can still be dead as hell...

 

[Orga777]

How is it gonna get +1 and then not get hit by a WoW? Stays base form, get a PuP on Gourgeist, goes mega next turn Crunch for ~70% then gets WoW'd. Even if Gour is nearly dead, ~15% top end from PuP then ~76% top end for Crunch, -12.5% from 2 turns of leftovers leaves Gour at ~21.5% and MegaKhan with a burn. I'm not sure how this isn't even decently reliable?

Because you have to worry about the rest of the team that will most certainly have something that covers for Will-O-Wisp? Heck, if you expect a switch, it doesn't even need to PuP. It can just Mega-Evolve, Crunch the incoming Gourgeist, and swap out resulting in a ravaged Gourgeist against something that cares nothing for Burn or is immune to burn. There are plenty of pokemon in Ubers that get hammered hard by Burn too. Doesn't mean that just because of that, they should be in OU.

 

[bioober]

Nobody runs Kang without Sucker Punch.
Flying / Levitators get Returned, which is enough at +2 to 2HKO Skarmory, who resists it. Alternatively, Sucker Punch.
See above calc with Skarmory for Steel types. Also, PUP allows you to keep boosting. Also, no Steel type that can actually take hits and kill Kanga off fast enough, barring Cobalion, who isn't that good right now.

I'm just going off what Shadowmario's posts, since apparently I'm not thinking and he is.
The +2 only comes off a successful Power-Up Punch, which I have had no problem preventing with Protect or Ghost-types.
Also pokemon like Ferrthorn with Rocky Helmet inflicts around 14/24th of Mega-Kengaskhan's health every turn, especially usable if you're switching into a Return or Crunch even a Power-Up Punch.

 

[bioober]

The problem with this is that if Sucker Punch is missing then that means that the team built for such a minus is going to have Sticky Web, Tailwind, or both, negating your faster fighting types (who still cannot switch in safely), and will then demolish said "check." If it has SP/Crunch/PuP/Return, it covers every possible situation for at least almost half damage for Kanga if anything tries to switch in at any point. To me, M-Kanga is pretty much a Shadow Tagged pokemon since you pretty much NEED to let the pokemon already out die since you can't bring anything in without taking massive damage. Due to Team Preview, it is REALLY easy for Kanga players to see what will... slow it down (not even STOP!) making it completely redundant and countered in no time.

Wouldn't that mean I have set-up as well? Ex. my own Sticky-Web or Rapid spin?

 

[Orga777]

I'm just going off what Shadowmario's posts, since apparently I'm not thinking and he is.
The +2 only comes off a successful Power-Up Punch, which I have had no problem preventing with Protect or Ghost-types.
Also pokemon like Ferrthorn with Rocky Helmet inflicts around 14/24th of Mega-Kengaskhan's health every turn, especially usable if you're switching into a Return or Crunch even a Power-Up Punch.

Please stop with Ferrothorn.... My god... It never goes away no matter how many times it is covered that it is not viable overall in a healthy team building scenario... Also, all you are doing is delaying the inevitable with the Protect strat. It is not hard for Kanga to get +2 and doesn't need it to weaken the team overall and leave the other five pokemon to mop up a bunch of weakened pokemon that are now harmless because they tried too hard to kill M-Kanga.

Wouldn't that mean I have set-up as well? Ex. my own Sticky-Web or Rapid spin?

Can't switch them in reliably against M-Kanga. You DO know this is the main problem, right?

 

[Dragontamer]

How is it gonna get +1 and then not get hit by a WoW? Stays base form, get a PuP on Gourgeist, goes mega next turn Crunch for ~70% then gets WoW'd. Even if Gour is nearly dead, ~15% top end from PuP then ~76% top end for Crunch, -12.5% from 2 turns of leftovers leaves Gour at ~21.5% and MegaKhan with a burn. I'm not sure how this isn't even decently reliable?

Then Gourgeist is almost dead, Mega-Khan is at full HP, and someone else on the Khan team uses Aromatherapy or Heal Bell. Or, Khan uses Crunch, then switches out on the WoW for Talonflame (because lol Gourgeist can't do jack to it).

The WoW argument has been invalidated ever since Khan has a team. One of the mod's posted a battle where it was filled with nothing but Lunar Wish / Healing wish users. The opponent had to face Mega-Khan at full HP 3 different times. Remember, Healing wish cures status and Lunar Wish maximizes your PP as well as curing status and putting a `mon back at 100%

 

[NoULyons]

Because sr +crunch or fire blast says no. Not to mention (sorry for beating a dead horse guys) mega kangaskhan can have cleric support. Some nice aroma therapy or maybe some relaxing heal bells to clear all that right up and thennnnnn your gorgeist can still be dead as hell...

You're dealing with a lot of hypothetical situations. It CAN carry Fire Blast, it CAN have a cleric, but in most common situations it won't have either of those. That's like saying a Gengar CAN run Thunderbolt and 2-shot your Vaporeon, but in an overwhelmingly large number of cases it won't have TBolt.

 

[Mood4food77]

i mentioned fire blast and ice beam as a way for mega kanga to get around the rocky helmet shenanigans cause even when running 0 EVs and a - nature, he can 2HKO most garchomp, ferrothorn, and skarmory (the three biggest culprits of rocky helmet use) and live on to see another day

it's more viable to run fire blast or ice beam on mega kanga than it is to run thunderbolt on gengar as thunderbolt provides next to nothing on gengar while fire blast and ice beam allow it to get past the three most common holders of rocky helmet, it's a coverage move, crunch is still the best one but it's a very viable option

 

[Orga777]

You're dealing with a lot of hypothetical situations. It CAN carry Fire Blast, it CAN have a cleric, but in most common situations it won't have either of those. That's like saying a Gengar CAN run Thunderbolt and 2-shot your Vaporeon, but in an overwhelmingly large number of cases it won't have TBolt.

The scary thing about Kanga is it doesn't matter. The fact it still has a team of five pokemon that can kill the one or two WEAKENED counters, means that this is not a real debate and is just getting silly now...

 

[NoULyons]

Because you have to worry about the rest of the team that will most certainly have something that covers for Will-O-Wisp? Heck, if you expect a switch, it doesn't even need to PuP. It can just Mega-Evolve, Crunch the incoming Gourgeist, and swap out resulting in a ravaged Gourgeist against something that cares nothing for Burn or is immune to burn. There are plenty of pokemon in Ubers that get hammered hard by Burn too. Doesn't mean that just because of that, they should be in OU.

I'm not saying it's not Ubers worthy or whatever, I'm just tired of people treating it as so cut-and-dry as they do. I'm not even a fan of MegaKhan, so whether it goes or not doesn't bother me, but the fact that people just say, "It's uncounterable", without giving it a second thought annoys me. I'm just putting forward something that could, with some reliability, switch into it and cripple it.

 

[DaiGuren]

You're dealing with a lot of hypothetical situations. It CAN carry Fire Blast, it CAN have a cleric, but in most common situations it won't have either of those.

And theorymoning counters and checks against MegaKhan is not hypothetical?? In restropect, most common OU teams will never carry a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn/Garchomp, Eviolite Dusclops, and Effin Confagrigus. Even freakin Sableye was UU alst gen. Now do we take those options out as well because "in most comomon situations, it wont have either of those?"

That's like saying a Gengar CAN run Thunderbolt and 2-shot your Vaporeon, but in an overwhelmingly large number of cases it won't have TBolt.

I dont't even get this analogy. Vaporeon cant do jack to Gengar, why bring it up?

 

[Orga777]

I'm not saying it's not Ubers worthy or whatever, I'm just tired of people treating it as so cut-and-dry as they do. I'm not even a fan of MegaKhan, so whether it goes or not doesn't bother me, but the fact that people just say, "It's uncounterable", annoys me. I'm just putting forward something that could, with some reliability, switch into it and cripple it.

It is too infrequent, and the amount of pokemon that can come in safely are limited to.... maybe five at best, and most of them are gimmicky as hell that would mostly be useless against everything not named M-Kanga? That is what makes it pretty much un-counterable.