Yeah, because they best way to wall a Pokemon is to just hope it misses. Sure, whatever you say. Seriously, since when has imperfect accuracy of main attacking moves ever been a good argument against a wallbreaker?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Banned deucer.
Yes. A lot of things could be considered "wallbreakers" if they ran moves like Blizzard instead of Ice Beam, but they don't because there are pokemon that can do the same damage without compromising their accuracy.
I'm going to give a slightly different look into keldeo as to why i think its not quite worthy of A+
A large portion of the support for keldeo to go to A+ rank stems from its choice specs set. The major problem I have with this is that unlike certain other choice item users, keldeo is entirely reliant on selecting the right move or being punished for it. It has no volt-turn, no trick/switcheroo or even other support moves like healing wish/memento to take advantage of in utilizing its choice item. If you go up against something that takes advantage of hydro pump being the selected move, you need to swap out and lose momentum.
If we look at the A+ and S ranked mons, only genesect stands out as a noticable choice user in those ranking tiers, and for a damn good reason: it's (often boosted) STAB u-turns offering momentum back to the user as well as being one of more than one viable set stands out significantly. Being choice locked greatly restricts you from keeping your opponent from getting a free turn to use, as for example, after you take out one of their mons, they could send in gyarados after the kill and then you have to switch out into something that stops gyarados from sweeping you with its DD set.
Now granted, hydro pump's power makes that rather difficult to achieve, but there's still pokemon that can achieve this, that have already been proven by calculations in this thread (or stated otherwise). I know people will be keen to quote prediction as a means to show how deadly keldeo is but I disagree with that, rather that prediction counts against it due to being choice-locked giving you one chance to get it right, before having to switch out until you get the opportunity to try again.
I also take issue with hydro-pump being the only option keldeo has to wall-break. Yes its a stupidly powerful move to do so with, but the lack of options outside of that make this a problem. Secret sword is good for getting past certain special walls, but fighting is fast becoming a really bad attack type to lock yourself into this meta. I don't like how a good portion of the S, A and even B ranked pokemon will make you pay for locking yourself into secret sword. Icy wind is even worse unless you were using it to revenge kill a quad-ice weak mon, and for a specs keldeo, that restricts you to non-DD Zygarde and garchomp (unless yache chomp is still a thing).
Now granted, if you can still achieve its incredible wall-breaking power with something like a life-orb or e-belt, I would say continue making the argument for keldeo in A+ rank, but otherwise, keldeo can stay where it is.
A large portion of the support for keldeo to go to A+ rank stems from its choice specs set. The major problem I have with this is that unlike certain other choice item users, keldeo is entirely reliant on selecting the right move or being punished for it. It has no volt-turn, no trick/switcheroo or even other support moves like healing wish/memento to take advantage of in utilizing its choice item. If you go up against something that takes advantage of hydro pump being the selected move, you need to swap out and lose momentum.
If we look at the A+ and S ranked mons, only genesect stands out as a noticable choice user in those ranking tiers, and for a damn good reason: it's (often boosted) STAB u-turns offering momentum back to the user as well as being one of more than one viable set stands out significantly. Being choice locked greatly restricts you from keeping your opponent from getting a free turn to use, as for example, after you take out one of their mons, they could send in gyarados after the kill and then you have to switch out into something that stops gyarados from sweeping you with its DD set.
Now granted, hydro pump's power makes that rather difficult to achieve, but there's still pokemon that can achieve this, that have already been proven by calculations in this thread (or stated otherwise). I know people will be keen to quote prediction as a means to show how deadly keldeo is but I disagree with that, rather that prediction counts against it due to being choice-locked giving you one chance to get it right, before having to switch out until you get the opportunity to try again.
I also take issue with hydro-pump being the only option keldeo has to wall-break. Yes its a stupidly powerful move to do so with, but the lack of options outside of that make this a problem. Secret sword is good for getting past certain special walls, but fighting is fast becoming a really bad attack type to lock yourself into this meta. I don't like how a good portion of the S, A and even B ranked pokemon will make you pay for locking yourself into secret sword. Icy wind is even worse unless you were using it to revenge kill a quad-ice weak mon, and for a specs keldeo, that restricts you to non-DD Zygarde and garchomp (unless yache chomp is still a thing).
Now granted, if you can still achieve its incredible wall-breaking power with something like a life-orb or e-belt, I would say continue making the argument for keldeo in A+ rank, but otherwise, keldeo can stay where it is.
I agree with its viability, but I'd like to point out that water/dragon is fantastic typing both offensively and defensively. Offensively, its almost as good as fire/dragon with only 4 pokemon resisting both (of which, only Azumarill and Ferrothorn are common in OU). Defensively, only dragon and fairy hit it for SE damage, and so there's not too terribly many things that KO it through its acceptable bulk of 75/95/95. This adds up to a great pokemon that can pretty consistently get a turn to set up, and can cause pretty impressive damage to a lot of the tier. The general increase in bulkiness of the metagame hurt it, but it's new scope lens set really makes up for it, as even ferrothorn is 2HKO'd by 100% crit draco meteors. For this reason, I'd say B or even B+ as you'd be hard pressed to choose it over something like Keldeo or Gyarados, and it has trouble against specific walls, but it can consistently fulfill the role you assign to it and easily give you momentum for the rest of your team
You were right, I didn't investigate how those pokemon actually perform against Keldeo, because I didn't know how in the actual world, stealth rock was a given. Let me tell you how my match ups with Keldeo usually go down.
Dragonite*: switches in on either STAB, roost stalls until there's a miss (or I restore Multiscale), dragon dances, repeats. Usually Keldeo ends up switching out. Since Dragonite got free set up it usually KOs the next poke and they bring Keldeo back in to KO with Icy Wind, but this time, I outspeed and usually OHKO.
Azumarill: Switches in on anything, taking at most 46.7%, takes another, leaving it with around 20% left, OHKO's with Play Rough. That's the worst case scenario.
Slowbro: I've only ever run AV sets, which makes Keldeo's strongest attack a 4HKO
Mega Venusaur: Forces Keldeo out every time
Tangrowth*: Switches in on either Hydro Pump or Sacred Sword. 2HKO's with giga drain while restoring its health to avoid the KO (This is with the physically defensive AV set, never tested any other)
Toxicroak: Actually, I agree with you on this one. Only added it because someone asked me to. I guess they're using it in OU, but I don't think that's the norm.
Celebi*: Switches in on either STAB, Giga Drains til it wins.
Trevenant: switches in on either STAB (nobody's been dumb enough to get locked into sacred sword with a ghost type left yet though), and Horn Leech til it wins
Jellicent: Keldeo switches out
Tentacruel: SR usually is up for this one, hence the need for Tentacruel. I switch in, Knock off (prolongs to 4HKO), rapid spin, and if I'm still around I lay down a hazard. You're right though that he doesn't do much to damage Keldeo, but it is free support, so its gotta count for something.
Sylveon: I ran specially defensive, which can switch in, take 2 hits, and KO with hyper voice pretty consistently
*vulnerable to predicted icy winds, but since Keldeo is usually brought in to remove a specific threat, it rarely predicts the switch like that. If you're playing against a very skilled opponent, the starred checks are less viable
Obviously, things like crits and misses occur, but these examples show how I've usually dealt with Keldeo. If I didn't have 1 of these, I usually either baited the Hydro Pump and relied on a bulky water to fight it, but that didn't always work out as cleanly.
None of these pokemon is in the top 10 for usage stats as of December, but between them, you'll find at least 1 on a lot of teams.
Keldeo earned its A rank because of how good it does its job, but without support, there's plenty instances where it can be rendered ineffective. With all the defogs and rapid spins running around, its really hard to assume it'll get SR support. Rain support's even less realistic as Politoed would rather just keep the rain to itself for its own wall breaking, and rain dance isn't exactly easy to set up without giving up momentum. Keldeo is great for eliminating a troublesome wall that would otherwise stop you cold, but it can't just blow up whatever it wants. Between priority, hazards, pokes that outspeed it, pokes that aren't OHKO'd, that 20% chance to miss, and Arceus knows what else, it'll take a lot of damage doing its job, so you can't expect it to perform past its assigned niche. For that reason, I do not believe it is deserving of A+. None of his other sets really reach A+ either as there are better calm mind sweepers, and his life orb / e belt sets directly contend with Greninja, who is arguably better thanks to protean, yet is only A itself (I say "only A" as if its a bad thing, being A shows how great it is, but also how it can't take on the world and win)
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Sub/CM Keldeo with leftovers is more than viable this gen as both a wall breaker and semi-durable sweeper. Shit set last gen because Jellicent could immune both stabs, but he's in UU right now. Certain dual resists like Tentacruel can't touch you unless it runs something stupid like giga drain, and even then you can still set up on it and break it down. Your main counters are the Latis, who are conveniently destroyed by Tyranitar.
Gonna chip in again, this time with Gardevoir. Both Gardevoirs see use on teams for one main reason: fast, powerful Fairy attacks, which aren't provided by any other Fairy-type so far since they are for some reason really slow. But there are reasons why Gardevoir itself would compete with Mega-form, rather than being terrible when compared to it (Pinsir and Mawile come to mind).
Mega-Gardevoir boasts the strongest Special Fairy attack, and since it is Pixilated Hyper Voice it can blast through Substitutes as well. Mega-Gardevoir's main niche in OU would be Calm Mind, making use of its high special stats to take special attacks while dishing out some serious hurt. Mega-Gardevoir has a good enough movepool to maintain solid 3-move coverage: Focus Blast hits Steels like Heatran and Ferrothorn, while keeping stuff like Scizor from switching in comfortably; Shadow Ball hits Aegislash; Psyshock hits Venusaur, Volcarona and special walls; Thunderbolt hits Charizard....basically everything that resists Fairy have to watch out for potential coverage moves. Its speed can also threaten a good majority of Pokemon found on buly offense, but it falls short on favorable targets like Garchomp, Greninja, and the musketeers. which is where Gardecoir comes in....
Scarf Gardevoir to be specific. Scarfed Moonblast off 125 Special Attack threatens a lot of speedy attackers, as the majority do not resist the move and a fair few are weak to it. Again, it boasts all the coverage moves Mega-Gardevoir has, so Fairy-resists will have to watch their step. In addition, Scarf Gardevoir now has the speed to use such moves as Memento, Destiny Bond, and Healing Wish, which can really mess up opponents that do not expect them. The one trick Gardevoir has that MegaVoir does not is....well, Trick. Trick is the easiest way to screw over Aegislash, its most common switch-in, since not only can the sword not switch back into Shield Stance, but the increased speed can potentially expose it to foes that it could outslow before. Unfortunately, Trick is a bit riskier in this Generation due to the advent of Mega-evolutions, which are immune to Trick, but it's still something Gardevoir can do.
Both Gardevoir and MegaVoir share their biggest flaw: low HP and Defense, which puts them at risk from pretty much every physical attack bar Fighting. It doesn't help that they are weak to Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak. Their natural speed isn't bad, but MegaVoir falls short of being considered "speedy" while Gardevoir is definitely considered 'average'. It's not so much MegaVoir's speed is bad rather that it isn't sufficient; part of what makes Garchomp good (back then) is that it outsped nearly everything (including offensive threats) it could threaten, namely Jirachi and Salamence. MegaVoir misses the mark, which wouldn't be quite so bad if its Defense wasn't so atrocious. B Rank for both Gardevoirs.
Mega-Gardevoir boasts the strongest Special Fairy attack, and since it is Pixilated Hyper Voice it can blast through Substitutes as well. Mega-Gardevoir's main niche in OU would be Calm Mind, making use of its high special stats to take special attacks while dishing out some serious hurt. Mega-Gardevoir has a good enough movepool to maintain solid 3-move coverage: Focus Blast hits Steels like Heatran and Ferrothorn, while keeping stuff like Scizor from switching in comfortably; Shadow Ball hits Aegislash; Psyshock hits Venusaur, Volcarona and special walls; Thunderbolt hits Charizard....basically everything that resists Fairy have to watch out for potential coverage moves. Its speed can also threaten a good majority of Pokemon found on buly offense, but it falls short on favorable targets like Garchomp, Greninja, and the musketeers. which is where Gardecoir comes in....
Scarf Gardevoir to be specific. Scarfed Moonblast off 125 Special Attack threatens a lot of speedy attackers, as the majority do not resist the move and a fair few are weak to it. Again, it boasts all the coverage moves Mega-Gardevoir has, so Fairy-resists will have to watch their step. In addition, Scarf Gardevoir now has the speed to use such moves as Memento, Destiny Bond, and Healing Wish, which can really mess up opponents that do not expect them. The one trick Gardevoir has that MegaVoir does not is....well, Trick. Trick is the easiest way to screw over Aegislash, its most common switch-in, since not only can the sword not switch back into Shield Stance, but the increased speed can potentially expose it to foes that it could outslow before. Unfortunately, Trick is a bit riskier in this Generation due to the advent of Mega-evolutions, which are immune to Trick, but it's still something Gardevoir can do.
Both Gardevoir and MegaVoir share their biggest flaw: low HP and Defense, which puts them at risk from pretty much every physical attack bar Fighting. It doesn't help that they are weak to Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak. Their natural speed isn't bad, but MegaVoir falls short of being considered "speedy" while Gardevoir is definitely considered 'average'. It's not so much MegaVoir's speed is bad rather that it isn't sufficient; part of what makes Garchomp good (back then) is that it outsped nearly everything (including offensive threats) it could threaten, namely Jirachi and Salamence. MegaVoir misses the mark, which wouldn't be quite so bad if its Defense wasn't so atrocious. B Rank for both Gardevoirs.
Hi, I am not sure if it has been mentioned yet and I am fairly new to the competitive scene and Smogon but I would like to nominate Espeon for a B as well as get some feedback regarding this. I feel Espeon fits the B category because of her niche of being the fastest support Pokemon with the Magic Bounce ability (Mega Absol has 5 more base speed but doesn't play the same role she does). As well as having the Magic Bounce ability and base 110 Speed Espeon has a fairly varied support move pool including Reflect, Light Screen, Yawn, Calm Mind, Baton Pass and Wish. Magic bounce allows her to switch into predicted hazard set ups/status inflicting moves and bounce them back meaning opponents have to think twice before using particular moves, on top of this magic bounce prevents Espeon from being taunted and therefore she can generally set up both screens with ease. Although she plays a duel screen support role generally she does in fact have a base 130 Special attack this therefore makes it hard for certain Pokemon such as Breloom to set up on her.
However Espeon is definitely not with without flaws. Since support Espeon should run both screens this only gives her 2 moves left. If you have baton pass to escape pursuit trappers and and Psychic for her offensive move she therefore can do nothing against Pokemon that resist Psychic which can set up again her. If you have Yawn instead of Baton pass to prevent Pokemon setting up/force switches then Espeon becomes easily trapped and with a base 65 HP and Defence and weakness to Dark she is extremely vulnerable to this. Another problem Espeon faces this generation is that with the nerf to steel types Dark/Ghost types have become much more common and other threats that out speed her such as Greninja have been introduced and are a common lead.
Overall Espeon I feel is a great Pokemon. From the battling experience I have learnt so far teams love to run entry hazards, sleep powder will-o-wisp thunder wave and the ability to be able to switch in a Pokemon and just deflect them and then set up a screen to benefit your team is very useful.
As the B rank states:
"Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait
for dangerous sweepers."
Generally she can do her job due to being immune to taunt and status such as sleep that would otherwise hinder her however the problem she faces is strong priority moves such as bullet punch and aqua jet hitting her before she can set up reflect and her lack of offensive coverage. Examples of Pokemon who do particular well against Espeon are Tyranitar and Scizor as they can pursuit trap her as well as abuse her low Defence and Pokemon like Aegislash can easily set up on her. I would like to hear what other people have to say about Espeon, I'm new to all of this so there are probably a few things i didn't cover regarding Espeon but I do think shes a good Pokemon and excels at preventing/delaying hazards being set up and supporting her team with duel screens as well as deflecting status inflicting moves otherwise aimed at her team mates.
However Espeon is definitely not with without flaws. Since support Espeon should run both screens this only gives her 2 moves left. If you have baton pass to escape pursuit trappers and and Psychic for her offensive move she therefore can do nothing against Pokemon that resist Psychic which can set up again her. If you have Yawn instead of Baton pass to prevent Pokemon setting up/force switches then Espeon becomes easily trapped and with a base 65 HP and Defence and weakness to Dark she is extremely vulnerable to this. Another problem Espeon faces this generation is that with the nerf to steel types Dark/Ghost types have become much more common and other threats that out speed her such as Greninja have been introduced and are a common lead.
Overall Espeon I feel is a great Pokemon. From the battling experience I have learnt so far teams love to run entry hazards, sleep powder will-o-wisp thunder wave and the ability to be able to switch in a Pokemon and just deflect them and then set up a screen to benefit your team is very useful.
As the B rank states:
"Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait
for dangerous sweepers."
Generally she can do her job due to being immune to taunt and status such as sleep that would otherwise hinder her however the problem she faces is strong priority moves such as bullet punch and aqua jet hitting her before she can set up reflect and her lack of offensive coverage. Examples of Pokemon who do particular well against Espeon are Tyranitar and Scizor as they can pursuit trap her as well as abuse her low Defence and Pokemon like Aegislash can easily set up on her. I would like to hear what other people have to say about Espeon, I'm new to all of this so there are probably a few things i didn't cover regarding Espeon but I do think shes a good Pokemon and excels at preventing/delaying hazards being set up and supporting her team with duel screens as well as deflecting status inflicting moves otherwise aimed at her team mates.
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In my humble opinion, Salamence is entirely outclassed as a DD sweeper. The ability to choose for Hydro Pump barely is an argument, because if you really want to beat bulky grounds with a special attack, you can use Dragonite with Ice Beam, which might not hit quite as hard, but considering Weakness Policy sets are quite common nowadays, you'll be able to pack quite a punch, I reckon.
Now of course this would all be fine if Salamence could boast something else, but he really doesn't. If you want guaranteed setup and a potential +2 boost to both offensive stats, choose Dragonite. If you want a base 100 speed tier, immediate offensive presence and amazing dual STAB, choose Charizard-X. If you want the bulk to set up with more than once, no SR weakness and ground STAB, choose Zygarde. If you want to be able to kill Hippowdon slighty easier, choose Salamence???
Look, Salamence is by no means bad, but its competition is simply overwhelming, and the fact that people are seriously suggesting the possibility to run Hydro Pump to handle Lando-T and Hippowdon slightly better than the rest as something that distinguishes it from the rest shows how awfully outclassed he really is. I guess we still have Moxie, but it just doesn't seem that relevant anymore when Dragonite can easily get +2 extra in both offenses if he wants to, it's just not enough to distinguish Salamence from the rest.
Unless someone can show me a set that distinguishes Salamence from the other dragons entirely (don't mention Scarf that shit sucks nowadays), I suggest we place him at B- rank at best, possibly even C+ rank as he is almost entirely eclipsed by other Pokemon.
Now of course this would all be fine if Salamence could boast something else, but he really doesn't. If you want guaranteed setup and a potential +2 boost to both offensive stats, choose Dragonite. If you want a base 100 speed tier, immediate offensive presence and amazing dual STAB, choose Charizard-X. If you want the bulk to set up with more than once, no SR weakness and ground STAB, choose Zygarde. If you want to be able to kill Hippowdon slighty easier, choose Salamence???
Look, Salamence is by no means bad, but its competition is simply overwhelming, and the fact that people are seriously suggesting the possibility to run Hydro Pump to handle Lando-T and Hippowdon slightly better than the rest as something that distinguishes it from the rest shows how awfully outclassed he really is. I guess we still have Moxie, but it just doesn't seem that relevant anymore when Dragonite can easily get +2 extra in both offenses if he wants to, it's just not enough to distinguish Salamence from the rest.
Unless someone can show me a set that distinguishes Salamence from the other dragons entirely (don't mention Scarf that shit sucks nowadays), I suggest we place him at B- rank at best, possibly even C+ rank as he is almost entirely eclipsed by other Pokemon.
The difference between Hydro Pump Salamence and Ice Beam Dragonite is the fact that it has the space to do it, Dragonite does not, since it has to run either ESpeed or Roost to not outclassed by other Dragons. Intimidate also makes go very far in terms of aiding Salamence in setting up. Hydro Pump is certainly not a desperate attempt to not get outclassed by other Dragons because it is not losing much coverage even when not running it, i.e. you still get the same Dragon + Ground coverage that Dragonite and Zygarde has. Fire Blast and Hydro Pump is simply a bonus because you have that available slot, and you can. The "the fact that people are seriously suggesting the possibility to run something to handle for something shows how much it is outclassed" argument is a bad argument in general. In fact, it is as bad an argument as saying "Charizard is a bad user of Dragon Claw, the fact that people are even trying to run a Physical Fire STAB on it to handle Steel types shows how much it is outclassed by Salamence", think about it, its practically the same argument with a different subject and object, and its just such a terrible basis of an argument. Such an argument is only a valid one when you are running something so obscure that fulfilling that niche is not a fail deal. In Salamence's case with Hydro Pump you win Lando-T, Balloon-Tran, Hippowdon, Gliscor while losing to Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Scizor, it seems as a fair deal, since all 6 are very relevant treats to DD dragons. Besides, the other DD dragons do not even have the choice to get past the former 3, and Dragonite and Zygarde sometimes even having problem with the latter 3. You don't need a set that is entirely distinguished entirely to not be outclassed, you just needs something that can do that no other similar Pokemons can do. In Salamence's case, this something is the ability to get past stuff that troubles other dragon sweepers. The only other dragon dancers, if you make any of them try to take on what Salamence can take on, they cannot even sweep properly anymore. The fact that Salamence has the option to get past them at such a low opportunity cost is already a good niche over them.
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But if you run Hydro Pump instead of Fire Blast, then you are losing the main niche of ScarfMoxieMence. Getting Genesect is the prime reason to run Fire Blast.
Are you even reading what youre typing? Dragonite doesnt NEED to run anything, it automatically has dual screen support just by being at full health, thats why he outclass every other dragon dancer. They are forced to have a reason to be used over dragonite in order to be viable and this hydro pump crap is salamence's failed attempt at doing this. Did you knew that dragonite can use expert belt+surf and get similar results? Who cares about heatran, if he has hidden power ice he wins anyway, if he doesnt you just pop his baloon and equake it. Hippowdon is going to phaze or stone edge you. Are you seriously suggesting being walled by skarm/scizor/ferrothorn is worth it lol. I'd pick zygarde over salamence anyday and you know why? Because he can ACTUALLY setup a dragon dance without being koed in the process. This is C-B rank material and nothing else. Too frail to setup, choice sets are useless, easily revenge killed, its just completely outclassed by other dragons.
Woah wait. What happened to "one does not simply switch into specs keldeo"? silenced made a some good arguments.
Finally, I think the main reason why Keldeo will not be able to get past A is because it cannot hope to win against the premier wall in OU right now, MSaur. And as far as firepower goes, ZardY outclasses Keldeo sans Secret Sword, which is both a boon and a bane becuase of Choice Specs. And ZardY ain't getting past A rank anytime soon.
Bullshit. Genesect cant ever hope to get past venusaur without every odd being on his side yet he is S rank. Thundurus cant get past it even with nasty plot yet he is A+. Alakazam completely trashes it yet its sitting at B rank. Venusaur is not the measurement of how good a sweeper is, the metagame itself is. Keldeo has very few switch ins and even less are viable, and thats why its so good at blasting holes in teams, specially offensive ones. Tell me next time your charizard can come in on stealth rock while taking only 6% damage or when he can speed tie with terrakion.
Regarding Kingdra:
It's definitely better than the current B- mons (Galvantula and Klefki) but not quite as good as even some B mons (alakazam, infernape, mega-manectric, etc.). Not to split hairs or anything, but I think B rank is suitable for it.
Good points, however in practice while it's rare to OHKO Kingdra, it's pretty easy to 2HKO, especially since it almost never invests in bulk. This is bad considering you need that one turn of set-up to not suck, and makes Kingdra slightly predictable as you know it's not going to attack you the first turn it's out.
It's definitely better than the current B- mons (Galvantula and Klefki) but not quite as good as even some B mons (alakazam, infernape, mega-manectric, etc.). Not to split hairs or anything, but I think B rank is suitable for it.
0 SpA Expert Belt Dragonite Surf vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 187-221 (49 - 58%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Expert Belt Dragonite Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 204-242 (48.5 - 57.6%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragonite fails to even guarantee a 2HKO on Lando and Hippowdon with Surf. Salamence can actually get the KO on both even if it switches in on a Dragon Claw followed by a Hydro Pump. Lets not assume Salamence has the problem on attack slots and Dragonite doesn't, by running Surf, you lose out up to 2 of ES/EQ/Fire Punch for coverage, since DD is a given, and Roost is what makes Dragonite so easy to set-up. Dragonite is already having quite a bit of 4MSS as it is, since without ES it is even more easily easily revenged than Salamence; without EQ all Heatran walks all over you; without Fire Punch you are facing the same problem as Salamence without Fire Blast.
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 244-292 (68.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 232-276 (70 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Are you seriously thinking that Salamence is that much frailer than Zygarde? With Intimidate, Salamence can set up a DD against physical attackers equally fine, while boasting better Atk and Spe after the set-up. And let's not forget Scarf Genesect is a death sentence to any DD user that is not Salamence or Charizard X
How in the fuck are you getting an intimidate drop on a revenge killer? Wth is 0/0 zygarde? Why do you continue with this when you just acknowledge that salamence is going to have problems regardless of what it runs?
I don't want to drag this out too long, so this will be my last post on keldeo.
While I think that Keldeo is still one of the best pokemon in OU for wall breaking and in general, and deserves A+ rank, I wont be too upset if it doesn't change.
Just wanted to add, that modest is (although not always the best) an option for specs keldeo. With modest, many of these possible 2HKO's turn into guaranteed 2HKO's and can get past dragonite, azumarill, trevenant if it doesn't have stirus berry, and slyveon. It outspeeds all of these pokemon anyways. Its lowered speed isn't too much of a problem if its a) not your only answer to killing pokemon faster than 100 base speed or b) really mostly for wall breaking.
Specs keldeo never relied on rain support. In fact it always did best on teams with Tyranitar, which can pursuit trap some of the counters you mentioned such as slowbro, celebi, trevenant, and jellicent. Relying on one pokemon to take out about half of its counters, and some of its checks, means keldeo actually needs very little support. The weather nerf actually helped it, as it no longer takes passive sandstorm damage throughout the match.
While I think that Keldeo is still one of the best pokemon in OU for wall breaking and in general, and deserves A+ rank, I wont be too upset if it doesn't change.
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Standard DD Zygarde runs 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/zygarde-qc-0-3.3496852/), which I simply put 4/0 because I couldn't recall the value at the time of the calculation. I just used Mamoswine's Ice Shard as an arbitrary Physical attack to run a calculation on to demonstrate Salamence's physical bulk.
Fire Punch at +1 still does not 2HKO Skarmory, loses to Genesect instead of Scizor, Ferrothorn still has a chance to survive. Dragonite is basically not beating anything that Fire Blast-less Salamence is not beating. On top of that, running Fire Punch means it is not running EQ, ES AND Surf, which makes it lost more things than Salamence is ever going to lose to. Running EQ over Fire Punch is not that much better. Now you have a change to 6HKO Skarmory (Salamence's +0 Hydro Pump can do it in 2 if Skarm switches into Dragon Claw), while losing to Ferrothorn as well. Salamence simply has the offensive niche in that it has way better coverage options than Dragonite.
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Pitiful. I took you for being potentially more intelligent than the other Salamence fanoys. Guess I was horribly wrong.
Since you missed something so critical as Haxorus using Dragon Dance the turn Landorus-T switches in proves you're merely grasping at straws to find a mediocre niche for Salamence.
That is assuming Dragon it only obtains one Dragon dance. And if we are to be hasty on both being prone to Genesect I could always point out Salamence is always prone to Gale wings Brave Bird among other things.
Your baseless conjecture continues to amuse me. You're only proving the following:
1) The majority of Dragons have roughly the same issues as Salamence.
2) The Dragons still have very similar solutions to their issues while still out classing and over again.
Are you fucking kidding me? Charizard alone is difficult to guess if it is running X or Y. That alone makes it harder to tell apart than Salamence and Dragonite. And Dragonite is not easy to guess has Choice Band because it has Choice Band too.
Let's throw Salamence in C for amusement. It barely makes a stand this generation and B is the best I can justify for it. Oh how the mighty have fallen.
You just demonstrated that a 0/0 zygarde has better bulk than intimidate salamence which... works completely against your case. I am honestly not sure what i am even arguing about now. Yeah, read the above post because i am pretty much done with this at this point.
0\0 Zygarde is the dd set.
He does actually acknowledge that Salamence can have problems regardless of set, but his point is Salmence has viable mixed options. Options good. Intimidate and moxie good. Oog oog oog.
Also, regarding the above post-considering Zygarde has basically the best natural bulk in the game, it is a compliment. Uhhh not including Arceus.
Has the list been updated recently? There were à few agreed upon rankings in between msaur stupidity.
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On with the personal insult when you realize you can't get a sound argument out huh.
If Haxorus uses Dragon Dance the turn Lando comes, it already have to take an attack because a +0 Aqua Tail fails to KO either, while Salamence can get the kill without take a hit, it's a big difference when you are trying to sweep.
Except you failed to realize that Salamence manages to solve some problem that other dragons have big problems with, in terms of Lando, Hippo etc.
You literally take 1 turn to figure out which Charizard it is and then have a safe switch in. Dragonite's set is also easily revealed after turn 1. Salamence on the other hand, sometimes takes a few turns before you can be certain which set it is running.
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Discussion aside, turn down the flamethrower. Just because you're a Moderator doesn't give you a free pass to act like a jerkoff.
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Dam, this is just so stupid i cant be done with it even if i wanted.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 214-252 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 170-202 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 316-372 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 214-254 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 271-321 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) + 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 180-213 (42.8 - 50.7%)
4 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 211-249 (55.2 - 65.1%) + -1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%)
Outclassed - decisively surpassed by something else so as to appear to be of a lower class inferior - of or characteristic of low rank or importance.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outclassed
What safe switch ins LOL.
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 214-252 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 170-202 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 316-372 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 214-254 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 271-321 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 133-157 (41 - 48.4%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 231-273 (55 - 65%) + 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 180-213 (42.8 - 50.7%)
4 SpA Mega Charizard X Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 211-249 (55.2 - 65.1%) + -1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 204-240 (53.4 - 62.8%)
Outclassed - decisively surpassed by something else so as to appear to be of a lower class inferior - of or characteristic of low rank or importance.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/outclassed
What safe switch ins LOL.
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