Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[AOPSUser]

Thats the thing though, why not buff types that need them instead of banning Talonflame which will hinder Fire's ability to be competitive.

We can't buff types since it would mean changing game mechanics. Also, even with a Talonflame ban, Fire and Flying won't really miss it, with powerhouses like Skarmory, Gliscor, Landorus, Charizard, Heatran, Infernape, etc.

The problem with your claim is that Kaiser mains Steel mono. With bias he would gladly see TalonFlame gone. That and I know them both they know what they are talking about. They are way more credible for the discussion of this if they been playing that much and is safe to assume they care about the tier. Which is why getting the higher ladders is a part of a regular ban/suspect

Steel has so many ways to check Talonflame it's not even funny. Heatran, already great on Steel for its Fire immunity, almost puts a full stop to Talonflame (and I say almost only because Stallbreaker set exists) and gets Stealth Rock to boot, Mega Aggron laughs at Talonflame's attempts to do damage if it runs RestTalk, or it can invest in Attack to OHKO Talonflame with Heavy Slam after SR, Scarf Cobalion can revenge kill Talonflame fairly well (although only once), as does Scarf Magnezone assuming Adamant Talonflame. Also, the fact that many Steels get Stealth Rock and Rock-type moves certainly helps.

A few calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 111-132 (28.7 - 34.1%) -- 99% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 136-162 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (ResTalk set)
0 Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 114-135 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 150-177 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ------ NOTE: this variant is not entirely safe due to being 2HKOed by CB Talonflame, but according to PS! it's the highest in usage.
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 148-175 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO ----- LO Talon on above Aggron
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 189-223 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 452-532 (151.6 - 178.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 52-61 (18.4 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 312-368 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even Volt Switch)

How many people high on the ladder main Grass, Bug, or Fighting? Find one of those people, and figure out how they deal with Talonflame. In fact, if I mained Steel, I would be biased a little bit towards anti-ban since running Talonflame means one less teamslot on an opponent's mono-Fire team (which could potentially be a lot more threatening than Talonflame to mono-Steel).

 

[DoW]

How many people high on the ladder main Grass, Bug, or Fighting? Find one of those people, and figure out how they deal with Talonflame. In fact, if I mained Steel, I would be biased a little bit towards anti-ban since running Talonflame means one less teamslot on an opponent's mono-Fire team (which could potentially be a lot more threatening than Talonflame to mono-Steel).

I was going to make this point, but you got there first. I would, however, like to expand on what would likely replace Talonflame. My first thought, as a flying user, is that I'd put MegaZard X on my team, probably a dd/roost/flare blitz/eq set which is only walled by skarmory on steel teams (assuming I can break heatran's balloon). (And even skarm doesn't properly wall).
On my fire team, I might be more inclined to go for espeed banded entei, or maybe infernape. Neither is particularly liked by steel, both being able to spam powerful, relatively fast fire, and both being able to counter heatran as well.
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 377-447 (112.8 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+Death on Wings

 

[Crazy Horse]

We can't buff types since it would mean changing game mechanics. Also, even with a Talonflame ban, Fire and Flying won't really miss it, with powerhouses like Skarmory, Gliscor, Landorus, Charizard, Heatran, Infernape, etc.

Did you not read my post? Unless you counter all my points on fire's reliance on talonflame I don't see how you can just say that in one sentence. Fire WILL really miss it. I also said talonflame serves as a sort of balance to bug teams.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

I'm aware of the lack of representation that this Thread is getting, and am working to expand its acknowledgement.

Concerning this matter, let us all realize that although many Monotype players cross over from Frost, it is still it's own independent Server and it could thus, theoretically, use their own rules- if the majority of Monotype players there disagree with the discussion, it's completely within your rights to hold your own.

It's also not exactly fair to say that the players of Frost weren't aware of the Thread, as I have posted it in the Monotype Room on Frost, along with Kaiser's and DarkJak's Leagues, respectively, among others. So to use Kaiser's unawareness of the Thread, if it could even be called that, as an example isn't very accurate, as he did indeed know about it, but assumed that it was a joke instead of investigating it as true or false.

Does that mean that Rorschach is wrong in his claim that many experienced players who could contribute greatly to this discussion aren't present? No. In fact I'd say he's right. That being brought to light, I agree that anyone who has a played Monotype deserves to be apart of this discussion, especially the many seasoned players that Frost has.

The question is how we can fix that. However,

May I remind everyone that purpose of this Thread is to or not to Ban Talonflame, and your reasons why or why not.

That being established,

Rorschach brought up some good points. But let me reiterate that the purpose of this discussion or any other Metagame suspect is to Balance the Tier, where everyone of every Playstyle can use any Monotype they want, whether it be good or bad; to make these Types, Playstyles, and strategies usable, not necessarily better or worse. If that were the purpose, we could remedy the unbalance by giving the aforementioned Monotypes boost; we could just give Bug Genesect again, Fighting Mega Lucario back, Shaymin-Sky for Grass, etc.

The point of a Banlist is to balance the Metagame, or to make several if not every Playstyle, strategy, or in this case Monotype Teams, usable; not necessarily better or worse.

So, even if people were to[Many people have ignored the needs of the Monotypes TFlame can be used on]"
that would be justifiable as both of these Types would still useable if it were to be Banned.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't think about how the Ban would effect these Types, either. In order to do this, we need to figure out what exactly Talonflame is doing for Flying and Fire respectively.

Talonflame on Flying:

Between the transition of Gen. V to Gen. VI, Flying received several buffs in the form of 4 Mega Evolutions that each in its own respect give it an edge against Types it struggled against, the addition of new Threats such as Vivillion while also getting back some Ubers, and of course, what it wanted most: a solid answer to Stealth Rocks in the form of Defog. All of that considered, is Talonflame really essential to Flying?

Talonflame can be used on Mono Flying as a Revenge Killer, a speedy Utility in Taunt/WoW, or a Set Up Sweeper when given the opportunity. It is mainly needed as a Revenger against the very few Pokes that soar above Flying's Speed Tiers, such as Greninja, Garchomp, Latios, and/or Swift Swim Pokes, especially. As a Utility, Talonflame can support it's Team with hit-and-run Burns via Will-o-wisp, by stopping Status Moves or Defog from disrupting its Team's pressure, or even fire off a Tailwind before it dies. For a more Offensive approach, Talonflame can of course use SD or Bulk Up to Sweep up Weakened Teams. It can even Scout with U-turn.

But Flying is so diverse in that it doesn't need Talonflame to have access to these things. It already has several Pokes who can fulfill these Roles, if not better.

Although Flying has relatively limited access to powerful Priority, it's so diverse in that it has many Walls to choose from that can Check if not Counter the aforementioned Threats. Whether Talonflame is outclassed or not as a Utility isn't even up for argument , since Flying has one of the fastest Taunt and Paralyze inducers with Thunderus back along with how widespread Taunt is in Flying, while Megazard X or even Bulky Zard Y's WoW is simply a better fit to their Bulk. I'm not even going to compare it to the other Scouters or Set Up Sweepers Flying has, as their are that many (without the *4 Stealth Rock Weakness, mind you).

So would Flying suffer if Talonflame were to be Banned? I don't think so. Not even a little bit.

Talonflame on Fire:

Simply said, Talonflame does a lot for Fire and would miss it if it were to go. As was mentioned, Fire suffers from a lack of Speed in the Scarfer department, and is heavily constricted to using either Scarf Darmanitan, who at Base 95 Speed is outpaced by many opposing Scarfers, Scarf Victini, who, despite its high Base Power Attacks, has just average Offenses that causes it to miss out on the KO's that other Scatters otherwise would scores, while Delphox (lol) is just flat out Weak and outclassed (only reason why it's being mentioned is because I know a few people who use it to get the jump on Garchomp). That being said, Fire has to, outside of Banded Entei's Extreme Speed and Infernape's disappointingly weak Mach Punch, depend heavily on Talonflame's Priority Brave Bird to Revenge Kill Threats that Fire's Scarfers otherwise could not. Among being the best Revenge Killer Fire has, Talonflame can also provide it's Team with Utility by shutting down Stealth Rocks with Taunt or by temporaryily solving it's Speed issue with Tailwind. And, of course, it can be both a Scouter and Sweeper as well.

What sets Fire apart from Flying and induces sympathy from me is that it is an extremely fragile Type that practically is incapable of Walling; for example, as Rorschach has mentioned, practically any Poke with a 100 Speed Tier or better that has managed to reach +1 or anything that has gone further to +2 with a Water or Rock Move practically ends the game. Gyarados is the best example I can think of here, as it can fodder Manu Fire Types and literally Sweep the Team.

But,

"Although we would like to think Monotype is the place where we can always use any type to the same effectiveness as the other types unfortunately that's not true. This is a MetaGame and there will always be Superior and Inferior."

As Rorschach himself has pointed out. Going off that and the definition of balancing a Metagame, whether Fire is inadvertently Nerfed or not if Talonflame were to go doesn't matter, as it is still useable. Although it's going to suffer in the Speed department, it still has Entei, which rivals Talonflame's power with the added perk that it isn't resisted by much, and Infernape's Mach Punch to dispatch Terrakion's.

And if indirectly nerfing 1 Type to make 3 usable, it's worth the sacrifice to me. Because Fire is still going to be good, while Bug, Fighting, and to a lesser degree Grass, would be revived as well.

So that's why I think Talonflame should still, despite the evidence that has been brought up, be Banned. However, I think an agreement between both sides of this argument can agree that it's only a real problem on Flying, while Fire would suffer- for that, I also support a complex Ban where TFlame is Banned only on Mono Flying.

P.S.: I wrote this on a phone, so bear with me. I'll Edit or Repost later to mske this more understandable, and if it's not already sorry.

 

[Barida]

I'm aware of the lack of representation that this Thread is getting, and am working to expand its acknowledgement.

Concerning this matter, let us all realize that although many Monotype players cross over from Frost, it is still it's own independent Server and it could thus, theoretically, use their own rules- if the majority of Monotype players there disagree with the discussion, it's completely within your rights to hold your own.

It's also not exactly fair to say that the players of Frost weren't aware of the Thread, as I have posted it in the Monotype Room on Frost, along with Kaiser's and DarkJak's Leagues, respectively, among others. So to use Kaiser's unawareness of the Thread, if it could even be called that, as an example isn't very accurate, as he did indeed know about it, but assumed that it was a joke instead of investigating it as true or false.

Does that mean that Rorschach is wrong in his claim that many experienced players who could contribute greatly to this discussion aren't present? No. In fact I'd say he's right. That being brought to light, I agree that anyone who has a played Monotype deserves to be apart of this discussion, especially the many seasoned players that Frost has.

The question is how we can fix that. However,

May I remind everyone that purpose of this Thread is to or not to Ban Talonflame, and your reasons why or why not.

That being established,

Rorschach brought up some good points. But let me reiterate that the purpose of this discussion or any other Metagame suspect is to Balance the Tier, where everyone of every Playstyle can use any Monotype they want, whether it be good or bad; to make these Types, Playstyles, and strategies usable, not necessarily better or worse. If that were the purpose, we could remedy the unbalance by giving the aforementioned Monotypes boost; we could just give Bug Genesect again, Fighting Mega Lucario back, Shaymin-Sky for Grass, etc.

The point of a Banlist is to balance the Metagame, or to make several if not every Playstyle, strategy, or in this case Monotype Teams, usable; not necessarily better or worse.

So, even if people were to[Many people have ignored the needs of the Monotypes TFlame can be used on]"
that would be justifiable as both of these Types would still useable if it were to be Banned.

But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't think about how the Ban would effect these Types, either. In order to do this, we need to figure out what exactly Talonflame is doing for Flying and Fire respectively.

Talonflame on Flying:

Between the transition of Gen. V to Gen. VI, Flying received several buffs in the form of 4 Mega Evolutions that each in its own respect give it an edge against Types it struggled against, the addition of new Threats such as Vivillion while also getting back some Ubers, and of course, what it wanted most: a solid answer to Stealth Rocks in the form of Defog. All of that considered, is Talonflame really essential to Flying?

Talonflame can be used on Mono Flying as a Revenge Killer, a speedy Utility in Taunt/WoW, or a Set Up Sweeper when given the opportunity. It is mainly needed as a Revenger against the very few Pokes that soar above Flying's Speed Tiers, such as Greninja, Garchomp, Latios, and/or Swift Swim Pokes, especially. As a Utility, Talonflame can support it's Team with hit-and-run Burns via Will-o-wisp, by stopping Status Moves or Defog from disrupting its Team's pressure, or even fire off a Tailwind before it dies. For a more Offensive approach, Talonflame can of course use SD or Bulk Up to Sweep up Weakened Teams. It can even Scout with U-turn.

But Flying is so diverse in that it doesn't need Talonflame to have access to these things. It already has several Pokes who can fulfill these Roles, if not better.

Although Flying has relatively limited access to powerful Priority, it's so diverse in that it has many Walls to choose from that can Check if not Counter the aforementioned Threats. Whether Talonflame is outclassed or not as a Utility isn't even up for argument , since Flying has one of the fastest Taunt and Paralyze inducers with Thunderus back along with how widespread Taunt is in Flying, while Megazard X or even Bulky Zard Y's WoW is simply a better fit to their Bulk. I'm not even going to compare it to the other Scouters or Set Up Sweepers Flying has, as their are that many (without the *4 Stealth Rock Weakness, mind you).

So would Flying suffer if Talonflame were to be Banned? I don't think so. Not even a little bit.

Talonflame on Fire:

Simply said, Talonflame does a lot for Fire and would miss it if it were to go. As was mentioned, Fire suffers from a lack of Speed in the Scarfer department, and is heavily constricted to using either Scarf Darmanitan, who at Base 95 Speed is outpaced by many opposing Scarfers, Scarf Victini, who, despite its high Base Power Attacks, has just average Offenses that causes it to miss out on the KO's that other Scatters otherwise would scores, while Delphox (lol) is just flat out Weak and outclassed (only reason why it's being mentioned is because I know a few people who use it to get the jump on Garchomp). That being said, Fire has to, outside of Banded Entei's Extreme Speed and Infernape's disappointingly weak Mach Punch, depend heavily on Talonflame's Priority Brave Bird to Revenge Kill Threats that Fire's Scarfers otherwise could not. Among being the best Revenge Killer Fire has, Talonflame can also provide it's Team with Utility by shutting down Stealth Rocks with Taunt or by temporaryily solving it's Speed issue with Tailwind. And, of course, it can be both a Scouter and Sweeper as well.

What sets Fire apart from Flying and induces sympathy from me is that it is an extremely fragile Type that practically is incapable of Walling; for example, as Rorschach has mentioned, practically any Poke with a 100 Speed Tier or better that has managed to reach +1 or anything that has gone further to +2 with a Water or Rock Move practically ends the game. Gyarados is the best example I can think of here, as it can fodder Manu Fire Types and literally Sweep the Team.

But,

"Although we would like to think Monotype is the place where we can always use any type to the same effectiveness as the other types unfortunately that's not true. This is a MetaGame and there will always be Superior and Inferior."

As Rorschach himself has pointed out. Going off that and the definition of balancing a Metagame, whether Fire is inadvertently Nerfed or not if Talonflame were to go doesn't matter, as it is still useable. Although it's going to suffer in the Speed department, it still has Entei, which rivals Talonflame's power with the added perk that it isn't resisted by much, and Infernape's Mach Punch to dispatch Terrakion's.

And if indirectly nerfing 1 Type to make 3 usable, it's worth the sacrifice to me. Because Fire is still going to be good, while Bug, Fighting, and to a lesser degree Grass, would be revived as well.

So that's why I think Talonflame should still, despite the evidence that has been brought up, be Banned. However, I think an agreement between both sides of this argument can agree that it's only a real problem on Flying, while Fire would suffer- for that, I also support a complex Ban where TFlame is Banned only on Mono Flying.

P.S.: I wrote this on a phone, so bear with me. I'll Edit or Repost later to mske this more understandable, and if it's not already sorry.

Ok First of all sir, Talonflame isnt even like a threat. This is what separates the good monotype players from the bad, you must work around ur weakness, YOU MUST STAY DAY AND NIGHT ON SHOWDOWN TO FIND A WAY TO BEAT IT. there is many ways to beat it with a fighting team i use talonflame on my flying, yes ik its power but in 2014 in April a boy named Barida found a way to beat talonflame with fighting. Just go to replays and look at
Elite Fou✘ Barida
And then u will see how to beat it, it took me day and night to find out how to beat talonflame and going back to my point separating the good mono players from the bad. Talonflame isnt a issue in this monotype society trust me. It will almost never be a issue and do you know i know this BECAUSE I DID IT. ive use monotype on flying with talonflame and im not going to fucking lie ive lost to bug with talonflame on my team before and it was because that bug player was good. So going back to my point this is where we see a difference. Thats all i have to say try to rebuttal that sir if u can . **COME CHECK OUT THE IMPERIUM LEAGUE ON FROST** cough Barida the Flying Player, Barida the Flying OG, Barida the coolest, Barida is out

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Ok First of all sir, Talonflame isnt even like a threat. This is what separates the good monotype players from the bad, you must work around ur weakness, YOU MUST STAY DAY AND NIGHT ON SHOWDOWN TO FIND A WAY TO BEAT IT. there is many ways to beat it with a fighting team i use talonflame on my flying, yes ik its power but in 2014 in April a boy named Barida found a way to beat talonflame with fighting. Just go to replays and look at
Elite Fou✘ Barida
And then u will see how to beat it, it took me day and night to find out how to beat talonflame and going back to my point separating the good mono players from the bad. Talonflame isnt a issue in this monotype society trust me. It will almost never be a issue and do you know i know this BECAUSE I DID IT. ive use monotype on flying with talonflame and im not going to fucking lie ive lost to bug with talonflame on my team before and it was because that bug player was good. So going back to my point this is where we see a difference. Thats all i have to say try to rebuttal that sir if u can . **COME CHECK OUT THE IMPERIUM LEAGUE ON FROST** cough Barida the Flying Player, Barida the Flying OG, Barida the coolest, Barida is out

Lol Barida, I love how you managed to write all that and still managed to contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion at all. This is the place where you at least pretend to act professional, not come on and embarrasse not only yourself but your server too.

All I got out of that is that you play a lot and pride yourself with thinking your the best. And you know, maybe you are a good player and all bit you coming here and swinging your dick around makes you lose all credit, just hope you know that.

Anyhow point is my argument still stand whereas your points... Oh wait, you had none. So all I gotta is keep this shit on Showdown, cuz this isn't the place for you to show off or promote your Leage. Maybe of you conducted yourself with some respect people would naturally wanna check out your League, but got damn do you have to make it so obvious? Btw everyone, hey, hey, Barida is in Imperium if you missed that. Not everyone is as idiotic as him, so don't judge them based off of his actions.

 

[Spark Flight 17]

Well how about just banning Gale Wings? Since Gale Wings makes Talon a threat to some types, but banning Talon could mess up Fire Teams, banning Gale Wings isn't that bad of an idea. Talon still has speed and usage, but the metagame could be a little more balanced with the removal of Gale Wings. Some types could start to be more common, such as Grass, Fighting, and Bug, while there could be more diversity in Teambuilding for Fire AND Flying

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Well how about just banning Gale Wings? Since Gale Wings makes Talon a threat to some types, but banning Talon could mess up Fire Teams, banning Gale Wings isn't that bad of an idea. Talon still has speed and usage, but the metagame could be a little more balanced with the removal of Gale Wings. Some types could start to be more common, such as Grass, Fighting, and Bug, while there could be more diversity in Teambuilding for Fire AND Fl

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Let me start this post by addressing the people who would rather see Gale Wings banned than Talonflame. The problem with this strategy is that, as an ability, Gale Wings isn't completely broken in Monotype. Earlier in the thread, somebody paralleled this with the banning of Gengarite, noting that despite Shadow Tag being what made Mega Gengar so terribly broken, it was still Gengarite that was banned. This is because the OU council did not believe that Shadow Tag as a whole was broken. The same logic can be applied here: yes, Flame Body Talonflame would still be usable in Monotype, but it's Talonflame that is broken and not Gale Wings. In the end, Talonflame is potentially broken in Monotype because of Gale Wings, but Gale Wings isn't potentially broken because there are other viable users of the ability that aren't anywhere near broken. If people want to use Gale Wings Fletchinder on Mono-Fire to strengthen their matchup against Mono-Fighting, they should be able to do that.

 

[DoW]

Ok First of all sir, Talonflame isnt even like a threat. This is what separates the good monotype players from the bad, you must work around ur weakness, YOU MUST STAY DAY AND NIGHT ON SHOWDOWN TO FIND A WAY TO BEAT IT. there is many ways to beat it with a fighting team i use talonflame on my flying, yes ik its power but in 2014 in April a boy named Barida found a way to beat talonflame with fighting. Just go to replays and look at
Elite Fou✘ Barida
And then u will see how to beat it, it took me day and night to find out how to beat talonflame and going back to my point separating the good mono players from the bad. Talonflame isnt a issue in this monotype society trust me. It will almost never be a issue and do you know i know this BECAUSE I DID IT. ive use monotype on flying with talonflame and im not going to fucking lie ive lost to bug with talonflame on my team before and it was because that bug player was good. So going back to my point this is where we see a difference. Thats all i have to say try to rebuttal that sir if u can . **COME CHECK OUT THE IMPERIUM LEAGUE ON FROST** cough Barida the Flying Player, Barida the Flying OG, Barida the coolest, Barida is out

I take it you're referencing this game? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-421918
Kudos for going to the trouble of finding it yourself, BTW ._.
Anyway, doesn't seem like much of a tactic to me. Scaring out banded varients with cobalion while setting up rocks? What if they're LO? Or SD? What if they switch to Skarmory then defog?

What if, IDK, you played someone competent? Instead of a gym trainer vs. an elite four?

Honestly, Rorscharch put forward the strongest argument so far, but I have yet to see an argument that convinces me Gale Wings Talonflame does not need a ban.

 

[Drakner12]

Okay, the problem i have with the talonflame ban. is that it is NECESARRY for fire, without TF fire becomes relatively beatable to a standard, in every meta in every game in existence there will always be something that is good, or even OP. but its not the things that are OP that need to be focused upon and banned. it is the things that are BROKEN. the things that completely affect how everyone has to play the meta, granted talonflame does do this. but, tf has counters. for one, mamoswine. after rocks ice shard from mamo can take it out, and TF does have switch ins, thing with roar. some of the most common things in the meta are COMMON to counter talonflame. talonflame is good, a problem every team should think of but should most definately NOT be banned. gale wings for flying/fire is too much of a game changer. flying would likely be okay without tf, but fire would not. fire would fall off. relatively hard, to the point of any type that is prepared enough for common fire mons can beat it, including grass. i think the TF discussion is completely overlooking the truely BROKEN things, Swift Swim, Steel, and Normal Cores. theese things need to be looked at more specifically. if talon flame gets banned the entire meta changes. and i dont think that change is something people are willing to go through.

~Drakner

 

[Barida]

Lol Barida, I love how you managed to write all that and still managed to contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion at all. This is the place where you at least pretend to act professional, not come on and embarrasse not only yourself but your server too.

All I got out of that is that you play a lot and pride yourself with thinking your the best. And you know, maybe you are a good player and all bit you coming here and swinging your dick around makes you lose all credit, just hope you know that.

Anyhow point is my argument still stand whereas your points... Oh wait, you had none. So all I gotta is keep this shit on Showdown, cuz this isn't the place for you to show off or promote your Leage. Maybe of you conducted yourself with some respect people would naturally wanna check out your League, but got damn do you have to make it so obvious? Btw everyone, hey, hey, Barida is in Imperium if you missed that. Not everyone is as idiotic as him, so don't judge them based off of his actions.

First of all sir i think ur being very childish by calling me out like that because i believe that talonflame shouldnt be banned. Are u mad that my argument was to good to beat urs but in other news Talonflame is a good pokemon and yes it recks the meta. But are u about to ban it from Meta just because it beats bug and Grass. When it comes to on a flying team we can live because we have staraptor who just recked house in gen 5 but when it comes to fire monotype oh lord bug will go back to beating it and i think grass could beat it to when it comes to the user ability. Im sorry for the dicks that we have on showdown to go ahead and talk trash on a fourm, most of are showdown members know better then that. He is just a little dick from the Monotype room that thinks hes the.... wait i wont drop to his level. But like i was saying i believe that Talonflame is just a regular pokemon that is op like we complained about Salemence and most op pokemon iin the past. I believe that the monotype should get it own ban list but when it comes to Talonflame on the ban list, comon now?

 

[Barida]

I take it you're referencing this game? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-421918
Kudos for going to the trouble of finding it yourself, BTW ._.
Anyway, doesn't seem like much of a tactic to me. Scaring out banded varients with cobalion while setting up rocks? What if they're LO? Or SD? What if they switch to Skarmory then defog?

What if, IDK, you played someone competent? Instead of a gym trainer vs. an elite four?

Honestly, Rorscharch put forward the strongest argument so far, but I have yet to see an argument that convinces me Gale Wings Talonflame does not need a ban.

I respect Rors comment, but you must have never been in a league sir to be honest there are some gym trainers that can beat e4, gym trainer wrath is a ok/good player so u cant say i only won because he is a trainer. Rors nice comment but i dont agree with it

 

[Parker.]

First of all sir i think ur being very childish by calling me out like that because i believe that talonflame shouldnt be banned. Are u mad that my argument was to good to beat urs but in other news Talonflame is a good pokemon and yes it recks the meta. But are u about to ban it from Meta just because it beats bug and Grass. When it comes to on a flying team we can live because we have staraptor who just recked house in gen 5 but when it comes to fire monotype oh lord bug will go back to beating it and i think grass could beat it to when it comes to the user ability. Im sorry for the dicks that we have on showdown to go ahead and talk trash on a fourm, most of are showdown members know better then that. He is just a little dick from the Monotype room that thinks hes the.... wait i wont drop to his level. But like i was saying i believe that Talonflame is just a regular pokemon that is op like we complained about Salemence and most op pokemon iin the past. I believe that the monotype should get it own ban list but when it comes to Talonflame on the ban list, comon now?

this doesn't make sense

lol just because something CAN be beaten doesn't make it not overcentralizing or broken. an OU player can beat mega gengar with some shit like Shed Shell Blissey switching to Pursuit Aegislash or something. does that mean it's not broken? your logic makes zero sense

 

[Barida]

this doesn't make sense

lol just because something CAN be beaten doesn't make it not overcentralizing or broken. an OU player can beat mega gengar with some shit like Shed Shell Blissey switching to Pursuit Aegislash or something. does that mean it's not broken? your logic makes zero sense

Well then im not even a debater lmfao let me just walk away like a good boy :( but i was just saying tho that talonflame has counters for every type just need to make use of it to beat talonflame and if u say it can be beaten by something WHY DO WE CALL IT BROKEN

 

[AOPSUser]

Did you not read my post? Unless you counter all my points on fire's reliance on talonflame I don't see how you can just say that in one sentence. Fire WILL really miss it. I also said talonflame serves as a sort of balance to bug teams.

If your definition of "balance" means "pretty much make unviable", then I don't know what to say.

Basically, there's two sides to this. On one side, losing Gale Wings would decrease Fire's viability, but this is in exchange for making Bug and Grass the least bit usable, and Fighting viable again. It's not possible to have everything at once. Also, I completely disagree with mono-Fire becoming completely unviable. Infernape, already used on pretty much every mono-Fire team, provides a great Terrakion check with Mach Punch. Against mono-Water, Fire has the option of running Mega Charizard Y or Ninetales to summon Sun, and Rotom-H has a potential clean sweep. These options might not be great, but they exist.

Another thing to take into account is the scenario. Fire has an easy time boosting its moves and weakening Water's moves with Drought, and has powerhouses like Darmanitan and Mega Charizard Y to take advantage of this. When Mega Charizard Y comes out against mono-Fighting, suddenly neither Terrakion nor Keldeo can switch into Fire Blast without taking a bunch of damage, let alone Solar Beam. (Keldeo proceeds to lose one-on-one to Charizard anyway) Any mono-Bug team is pretty much doomed if their Scarf Heracross is dead, and the fact that Mega Charizard Y is immune to Sticky Web helps. Gyarados can't switch in because it risks getting 2HKOed by Fire Blast, while opposing Charizard and Salamence don't fare any better. (Scarf Salamence can't even OHKO Char Y with Outrage) Talonflame essentially gives mono-Fire a free win against mono-Bug and mono-Fighting by removing the need to play around their threats. Talonflame also screws over mono-Dragon pretty well, a type that naturally should give mono-Fire difficulty, absolutely destroys mono-Ghost teams, and has potential to ruin many more types (such as Psychic).

The scenario is equally important for mono-Flying. If Dragonite (or your own Charizard) gets in before Mega Charizard X, it can Dragon Dance up and kill Charizard before possibly sweeping. Keep in mind that Mega Charizard X means you are facing either another mono-Flying, which is simply determined by how well either side battles, or mono-Fire, which, as you already mentioned, doesn't have great priority users outside of Talonflame. Scarf Thundurus outspeeds Adamant Kabutops and every slower Swift Swimmer in Rain, or you can use Hawlucha to try to set up a sweep of its own. Finally, Dragonite with Multiscale intact can beat every Swift Swimmer one-on-one once as a last resort.

For mono-Flying or mono-Fire, there are options other than Talonflame to defeat those kinds of troublesome teams. Mega Charizard X is a great example, as it can sweep an entire team given the satisfaction of a couple conditions. Dragonite is similar (but less powerful). Mega Charizard Y can nuke everything in its path (but loses to mono-Water thanks to Politoed). Gyarados can also sweep a team and can even take a couple hits here and there. Banded Dragonite can perform two functions, as a revenge killer and wallbreaker, Infernape and Entei can revenge also, while being great attackers in general.

We also need to consider Swift Swim. Currently, it is very powerful against many teams, mostly because you can't just slap Chansey or Ferrothorn onto any team you want. Even Electric and Dragon have trouble with mono-Water, and those types are supposed to beat Water. The absolute best counter to Swift Swim is mono-Grass, thanks to Ferrothorn, Celebi, and the many other Grass-types available, but mono-Grass is made unviable by Talonflame. If Gale Wings or Talonflame goes, Grass will be usable again, so there will be teams that can hard stop Swift Swim. (imo Drizzle+SwSw is too good even then but that's a whole different can of worms)

Fire is going to lose its strongest priority. Grass, Bug, and Fighting are going to be actually usable again. That's a really good trade-off for the metagame.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I'm aware of the lack of representation that this Thread is getting, and am working to expand its acknowledgement.

Concerning this matter, let us all realize that although many Monotype players cross over from Frost, it is still it's own independent Server and it could thus, theoretically, use their own rules- if the majority of Monotype players there disagree with the discussion, it's completely within your rights to hold your own.

It's also not exactly fair to say that the players of Frost weren't aware of the Thread, as I have posted it in the Monotype Room on Frost, along with Kaiser's and DarkJak's Leagues, respectively, among others. So to use Kaiser's unawareness of the Thread, if it could even be called that, as an example isn't very accurate, as he did indeed know about it, but assumed that it was a joke instead of investigating it as true or false.

Oh I think you have a misunderstanding with me. I wasn't even thinking of frost. I'm talking about main monotype players although now that you mention they are usually frequent frost. But yeah I brought up kaiser just as a point. A point that if its suspected the ultimate verdict should be done how its normally done on smogon. Although even a suspect is shady when people usually think I'm lying before telling them about this thread.

Well how about just banning Gale Wings? Since Gale Wings makes Talon a threat to some types, but banning Talon could mess up Fire Teams, banning Gale Wings isn't that bad of an idea. Talon still has speed and usage, but the metagame could be a little more balanced with the removal of Gale Wings. Some types could start to be more common, such as Grass, Fighting, and Bug, while there could be more diversity in Teambuilding for Fire AND Flying

banning Gale Wings makes it completely useless to fire mono. As I stated in my points of why fire needs it ,in every case because of its priority. Taking away that its just "a swellow with flare blitz" except swellow is slightly stronger :I

 

[Crazy Horse]

Well I don't think you really addressed my points well.

If your definition of "balance" means "pretty much make unviable", then I don't know what to say. Basically, there's two sides to this. On one side, losing Gale Wings would decrease Fire's viability, but this is in exchange for making Bug and Grass the least bit usable, and Fighting viable again. It's not possible to have everything at once. Also, I completely disagree with mono-Fire becoming completely unviable. Infernape, already used on pretty much every mono-Fire team, provides a great Terrakion check with Mach Punch. Against mono-Water, Fire has the option of running Mega Charizard Y or Ninetales to summon Sun, and Rotom-H has a potential clean sweep. These options might not be great, but they exist.

To start off Bug isnt unviable. I said that TFlame serves as a balance as in making it run 1 or 2 bug/rock pokemon. Which would make your next statement about there being two sides invalid. TalonFlame serves multiple purposes in Monotype besides carrying fire mono. Ans on your disagreement that fire mono is completely unviable... Bug tears apart fire w/out talonflame via bug/rock, pinsir. and if you want my mention on other matchups just read my post better. Enoch summed it up pretty well though. Fire is a very offensive typing and needs very offensive tools. However its limited with 100 base speed scarfs is there anything you have to say for that? Also against mono-water chari-y is its best bet, however it only manages to kill one pokemon on the solar beam during mega evo, after that its just a glorified ninetales(I have seen some water mono's with empoleon to even stop chari-y from getting that one kill). Now what do you do when you don't have reliable scarf options? Priority! However fire lacks in that department as well, limited to E-Speed entei and mach punch infernape. Its a bit annoying that im retyping this for you though. Also how does it matter that infernape can check a revenge killer? terrakion can just switch out to lets say hitmontop and then come in later to take out another fire type until all you have is that precious little infernape. That raises an eyebrow though. How come the offensive typing is on the ropes forced to play defensively and pressured defensively? Naturally you would just need something with good priority option and an offensive pivot to solve the problem. *cough* T-Flame *cough*. also rotom-h is a joke(exaggerating). Assuming you are running scarf set (which similarly to rotom-w serves as a momentum grabber). That momentum grabber is weak to rocks and also has a poor speed tier. Unlike rotom-h however it can't effectively run a bulky scarf set thanks to its typing and its monotype's playstyle(fire). Speaking of rotom-w, bulkyscarf rotom-w walks all over fire including talonflame. rotom-h isn't clean sweeping anything. Hell even steel users managed to topple rotom-h with scarf excadrill.

Another thing to take into account is the scenario. Fire has an easy time boosting its moves and weakening Water's moves with Drought, and has powerhouses like Darmanitan and Mega Charizard Y to take advantage of this. When Mega Charizard Y comes out against mono-Fighting, suddenly neither Terrakion nor Keldeo can switch into Fire Blast without taking a bunch of damage, let alone Solar Beam. (Keldeo proceeds to lose one-on-one to Charizard anyway) Any mono-Bug team is pretty much doomed if their Scarf Heracross is dead, and the fact that Mega Charizard Y is immune to Sticky Web helps.

What do you mean it has an easy time boosting moves? Besides having a poor defensive typing, Fire Type pokemon usually dont have boosting moves nor frequent circumstances to boost. darmanitan and char-y serves as wallbreakers to the offensive Monotype is and should be. Also if terrakion switches in on chari-y and scares u out it can SD,Sub(+ salac berry),Rock Polish, or setup rocks. As for keldeo and chari-y 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 236-278 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO while i suppose you are correct its not hard to pick off maybe 7 or so percent from chari-y especially when mono-fighting has a plethora of priority. I haven't seen many bug teams with scarf heracross due to sticky web. However scarfcross + sticky web fondles fire unless they have oh umm that thing that keeps it viable? oh Talonflame! sticky web destroys fire mono's answer to its mediocre speed tier and most of its revenge killing options.
I've also noticed you didnt bring up mono-flying laughing at mono-fire w/out the factor of talonflame. my Fire vs Flying matchup is one of the most prime examples talonflame is a must for mono-fire. Mega Gyara and Chari-x vacation at the bahamas drinking at the beach when vs Fire. Fire is meant to be an offensive typing but never had that pokemon i described above "Offensive pivot, answer to mediocre scarfs, Momentum Grabber". This made fire mediocre throughout the gens. However I believe if you take it out Mono-Fire wont be able to keep up with this gens threats because w/out talonflame fire is essentially back to gen 5. Outside of Defog Chari-Y.

i think the TF discussion is completely overlooking the truely BROKEN things, Swift Swim, Steel, and Normal Cores. theese things need to be looked at more specifically. if talon flame gets banned the entire meta changes. and i dont think that change is something people are willing to go through.

~Drakner

I agree with mostly everything you say in that post besides steel and normal being banned. Oh and AOPSUser could you please read the part of my first post about how talonflame isn't the full blame for bug/fighting/grass being low-mid tier. Its not gonna make it suddenly good. The threatlist and meta is like a pez stick. If you get rid of whats on top(big threat) the next big thing is just gonna come out. ~ Rorschach

 

[GodChef]

If your definition of "balance" means "pretty much make unviable", then I don't know what to say.

Basically, there's two sides to this. On one side, losing Gale Wings would decrease Fire's viability, but this is in exchange for making Bug and Grass the least bit usable, and Fighting viable again. It's not possible to have everything at once. Also, I completely disagree with mono-Fire becoming completely unviable. Infernape, already used on pretty much every mono-Fire team, provides a great Terrakion check with Mach Punch. Against mono-Water, Fire has the option of running Mega Charizard Y or Ninetales to summon Sun, and Rotom-H has a potential clean sweep. These options might not be great, but they exist.

Another thing to take into account is the scenario. Fire has an easy time boosting its moves and weakening Water's moves with Drought, and has powerhouses like Darmanitan and Mega Charizard Y to take advantage of this. When Mega Charizard Y comes out against mono-Fighting, suddenly neither Terrakion nor Keldeo can switch into Fire Blast without taking a bunch of damage, let alone Solar Beam. (Keldeo proceeds to lose one-on-one to Charizard anyway) Any mono-Bug team is pretty much doomed if their Scarf Heracross is dead, and the fact that Mega Charizard Y is immune to Sticky Web helps. Gyarados can't switch in because it risks getting 2HKOed by Fire Blast, while opposing Charizard and Salamence don't fare any better. (Scarf Salamence can't even OHKO Char Y with Outrage) Talonflame essentially gives mono-Fire a free win against mono-Bug and mono-Fighting by removing the need to play around their threats. Talonflame also screws over mono-Dragon pretty well, a type that naturally should give mono-Fire difficulty, absolutely destroys mono-Ghost teams, and has potential to ruin many more types (such as Psychic).

The scenario is equally important for mono-Flying. If Dragonite (or your own Charizard) gets in before Mega Charizard X, it can Dragon Dance up and kill Charizard before possibly sweeping. Keep in mind that Mega Charizard X means you are facing either another mono-Flying, which is simply determined by how well either side battles, or mono-Fire, which, as you already mentioned, doesn't have great priority users outside of Talonflame. Scarf Thundurus outspeeds Adamant Kabutops and every slower Swift Swimmer in Rain, or you can use Hawlucha to try to set up a sweep of its own. Finally, Dragonite with Multiscale intact can beat every Swift Swimmer one-on-one once as a last resort.

For mono-Flying or mono-Fire, there are options other than Talonflame to defeat those kinds of troublesome teams. Mega Charizard X is a great example, as it can sweep an entire team given the satisfaction of a couple conditions. Dragonite is similar (but less powerful). Mega Charizard Y can nuke everything in its path (but loses to mono-Water thanks to Politoed). Gyarados can also sweep a team and can even take a couple hits here and there. Banded Dragonite can perform two functions, as a revenge killer and wallbreaker, Infernape and Entei can revenge also, while being great attackers in general.

We also need to consider Swift Swim. Currently, it is very powerful against many teams, mostly because you can't just slap Chansey or Ferrothorn onto any team you want. Even Electric and Dragon have trouble with mono-Water, and those types are supposed to beat Water. The absolute best counter to Swift Swim is mono-Grass, thanks to Ferrothorn, Celebi, and the many other Grass-types available, but mono-Grass is made unviable by Talonflame. If Gale Wings or Talonflame goes, Grass will be usable again, so there will be teams that can hard stop Swift Swim. (imo Drizzle+SwSw is too good even then but that's a whole different can of worms)

Fire is going to lose its strongest priority. Grass, Bug, and Fighting are going to be actually usable again. That's a really good trade-off for the metagame.

My thoughts on Talonflame have been said in my previous posts so im not going into it again here.

You seem to be under the notion that removing Talonflame from the meta would magically fix grass, bug and fighting, this is debatable. Fighting is found at the higher Sazh Katzroy, GreenThunder are people who do well with it (I dont know how though, someone get them in here).

Grass would still be awful if Talonflame was removed from the tier. Having Talonflame in it certainly doesnt help but Tf isnt the sole reason grass is so under-represented. Its under-represented because its a bad type. The pokemon that have high speeds that are past 100 have an awful move pool/ weak offensive stats, and the pokemon that are there to tank hits are burdened by a plethora of weaknesses. Im sure at the higher tiers anyone most people if not all would say they have little trouble with grass and not all of them have access to Talonflame.

I have limited experience with regarding Bugs and Talonflame, talking to league members I get the impression that its the combination of SR and Talonflame that is the problem. Due to the mutual SR weakness Bug types lose out because they dont have access to the better utility of flying pokemon/or the benefit of the Sun to break down the pokemon capable of removing SR off the field.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Oh and this just popped into my head. Regarding banning talonflame for bug,grass. Those two types lose naturally to flying and fire anyways... I don't understand the big complaint that its making it unviable. Is it because it loses to its counter type with more ease? (Although bug beats fire w/out talonflame). As for fighting, I already gave my explanation of why I think thats fallen off and why the others fell off. Please dont ignorantly disagree with me if your not willing to read my first post and rebuttal my points that i took 20 mins to work up ;~;

 

[AOPSUser]

Pinsir cannot tear apart mono-Fire if Fire gets their Charizard out first. It and Heracross both have to wait to revenge kill, meaning the mono-Bug team has to sacrifice a mon to force Charizard out. Heracross must be scarfed to revenge, meaning it has to predict whether the Fire user will switch to Heatran/Infernape or not. Pinsir has to be already Mega Evolved, and it has to predict around a potential Rotom-H switch. Rotom-H, by the way, is perfectly viable on mono-Fire, as it is one of the few sources of Electric-type attacks on Fire-type teams. Also, mono-Fire stands no chance against mono-Water anyways, Talonflame or not, for one reason--Kabutops. Talonflame can't revenge kill a Kabutops, Char Y can't come in on it, and the general lack of Fire-type Pokemon that can take Water-type moves doesn't exactly help. Charizard Y is helpless against Politoed, which means that if Politoed comes in on Char Y, <insert Swift Swimmer here> will have an easy time running through a Fire-type team, Talonflame or not in the case of Kabutops (which also murders mono-Flying teams regardless of Talonflame). Fire does have Infernape's Mach Punch to revenge Kabutops, though.

About your scenario with Terrakion: Let's say Infernape is mixed. It predicts your switch and hits Hitmontop with a Fire Blast, a 2HKO. There goes your Hitmontop. There's also a risk of Terrakion getting burned by Torkoal, or missing a Stone Edge in a crucial moment. Terrakion doesn't walk over mono-Fire as much as to make it unviable.

When I said boosting moves I meant that Sun boosts the power of Fire-type moves. Charizard Y has a shitton of firepower, or if you want to go another route, you can try Heat Rock Ninetales (or just abandon Sun and try setting up a Charizard X sweep). Also, in the Charizard Y vs. Fighting scenario, no one says Charizard can't simply Solar Beam and just get rid of Terrakion/Keldeo right away. Oh, and if Terrakion SDs on a switch to Infernape, it has to switch or die (and at that point it can no longer take a Fire Blast). It's a constant fight for momentum, just like most good battles should be.

Scarf Heracross has the exact same problem as Scarf Terrakion and is weaker to boot. Stone Edge is not the most accurate move, and since Heracross doesn't get STAB on it Torkoal or Heatran can come in and threaten it out. If Heracross predicts the Heatran switch and uses Earthquake or Close Combat, and Charizard stays in, no more Heracross. Again, it comes down to the predicts. And in the case of mono-Fire vs. mono-Flying, neither Gyarados nor Charizard can actually switch into Mega Charizard Y because Fire Blast 2HKOes both of them under Sun. In fact, Char Y's Fire Blast does so much to Charizard on the first hit that it actually has a good chance of 2HKOing Mega Charizard X if the first hit lands while it's not Mega Evolved, and Tough Claws Dragon Claw does not OHKO Char Y in return. The only Pokemon in mono-Flying Char Y can't threaten is Dragonite (which has the potential to shit on Fire Talonflame or not). If the Fire team is running Char X, it's a desperate race to set up Dragon Dance first, which results in a momentum battle, again the sign of a good battle.

Talonflame might not be the only reason Bug, Grass, and Fighting are so unviable, but it's one of the largest. No other Pokemon on Flying or Fire is so hard to revenge (with the exception of Dragonite with Multiscale intact, but if you let it set up that much it's your fault there), so hard to tank (for those three types), and as a result no other Pokemon can threaten each of those three types instantly with 2-3 dead team members just by switching in. (and don't give me any of that "Armaldo/Shuckle" crap either, Armaldo is 2HKOed by Brave Bird and Shuckle is nearly 2HKOed)

As I see it, there are three conditions to be argued on this ban: sufficiency, necessity, and side effects. Your arguments target the sufficiency and side effects, but do not touch on the necessity. Bug, Grass, and Fighting might not suddenly be viable, but what most pro-ban posters are saying here are that without a Gale Wing ban or a Talonflame ban, these three types can never be very viable.

Why did I just waste 30 minutes of my life writing this

 

[Crazy Horse]

Something to dwelve before i turn in for the night. Before any idea of a ban list was introduced. Was there a frequency of "talonflame is op" "ban t-flame"? From what I've experienced no. Idk it just seems like it wasn't a recognized broken thing. People tend to do that though so not that much of a surprise. However, Swift Swim has always been complained about even before any idea of a ban list came along. So targeting T-Flame off the bat kinda urks me a bit when the real broken thing that is rather a one sided argument goes w/ few mentions here. I honestly expected it to be the first topic. My Suggestion: start off with a Swift Swim suspect/ban I seriously don't think its much to argue on that part. After that see how the meta adapts and work from there.

 

[DoW]

I respect Rors comment, but you must have never been in a league sir to be honest there are some gym trainers that can beat e4, gym trainer wrath is a ok/good player so u cant say i only won because he is a trainer. Rors nice comment but i dont agree with it

Me, never been in a league? I'm afraid you don't know who you're dealing with here Barida. Copied from the leaf league website (where I'm currently a professor):

Former Positions: Biblia: Flying Trainer, Rock Gym Leader, Water Gym Leader, Flying Gym Leader;
Sora: Flying Gym Trainer;
Shuckle: Flying Gym Leader;
Serenity: Flying Elite 4;
Monotype: Flying Champion

I know a gym trainer can beat an E4. But it's still about as far as you can get from an even match. Seriously, beat someone of your own level with that stratagy and then maybe I'll start considering what you say seriously. Maybe.

Back on topic, while Fire and Flying normally beat Bug and Grass even without Talonflame, that's not to say they always win. Bug and Grass stand far more chance without Gale Wings Talonflame, and a better Grass or Bug player will still beat Fire or Flying if they outplay their opponent well enough. This is far less likely without a ban. There's always going to be type advantages, but when it's almost impossible to win against a type disadvantage, that's when something needs to change.

 

[Pikachuun]

Well then im not even a debater lmfao let me just walk away like a good boy :( but i was just saying tho that talonflame has counters for every type just need to make use of it to beat talonflame and if u say it can be beaten by something WHY DO WE CALL IT BROKEN

Learn the definition of counters before you say that something has some. What I want you to do is name something that can take two of Talon's banded attacks (assuming perfect prediction on the opponent's account) for every type. Do not forget to account for Stealth Rock on your side, as the opponent's Skarmory (example) set some up. Then, account for the not-banded case, as Talonflame does get Natural Gift and Swords Dance and Bulk Up, and can run a Choice Scarf for the surprise/outspeeding other scarfers and KO'ing them with Flare Blitz factor. Now that you have that list, name something from that list that can win 1v1 versus every one of its sets. Only then do you have a Talonflame counter.

 

[Isza]

The problem with your claim is that Kaiser mains Steel mono. With bias he would gladly see TalonFlame gone. That and I know them both they know what they are talking about. They are way more credible for the discussion of this if they been playing that much and is safe to assume they care about the tier. Which is why getting the higher ladders is a part of a regular ban/suspect

I Don't main steel at all. I ladder with all respective types, so you really can't say i would not support the ban because it does not affect me. I have trouble with Talonflame on most of my teams as well, but i find other ways to deal with it.

 

[Crazy Horse]

My fault then kaiser, but that doesn't go without saying can we address swift swim first let things play out and if people still see t-flame as a problem go on from there?