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Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-128332195 is the replay, after 15 minutes of inactivity people won't be able to join the battle any longer.
Last gen, I used a set that is very similar:
Aggron @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Def / 0 SDef / 0 Spd
- Metal Burst
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Rock Slide/Head Smash
What you do is Protect to kill any turns that the other pokemon might use to set-up, and then Metal Burst their attack back at them. 0 IVs in Defense and Special Defense allow you to take maximum damage from any attack and bounce it back for maximum damage. Max HP also helps. Brave is the ideal nature as it makes Metal Burst work against the widest variety of pokemon, but a -Def nature could be used to reduce its still great physical bulk. Custap Berry is used so that, if the opponent has Sturdy, a Focus Sash, wimpy attacks (even on the special side, it can take strong SE attacks without Sturdy activating), and/or a very high HP stat, Aggron can move first next turn and destroy the foe. Earthquake is the main move to use here, as it won't miss, with Stone Edge or Rock Slide to handle those immune to ground. Head Smash can be used for maximum power, but that causes recoil which makes you lose or tie the match.
I've tried it out and it's not that great. Oddly enough, it isn't powerful enough to break through some bulky attackers, has to run Protect to guarantee its Mega speed tier (the protect turn can be abused by DragonDancers and Substitute users, among other things). It's also too frail to survive Greninja's Hydro Cannon, and mixed sweepers not named Aegislash are downright terrible in 1v1 in general. On the other hand, if you go fully physical, Intimidate ruins your day, and Lucario's Special movepool is somewhat disapointing. Most scarfers outspeed and OHKO it.
Finally, it has a 4 moveslots syndrome : it needs Protect, STAB options for Adaptibility abuse, priority, and coverage, which leaves no room for support moves like Charizard or Gardevoir can afford to run.
MegaGar and Genesect are also allowed. Gengar is great, but Genesect is in the same boat : it wants but cannot afford to go mixed, has to be scarfed in order to be effective (trololol 99 base speed + weakness to Zard), and relies on Download+Coverage to deal with common threats.
First of all, I want to say that I do not think that level 1 and 2 things should be banned from 1v1. (this argument mainly directed to ganesha27) They are not hard to counter at all, and around the 1400s or so on the ladder, you don't even need to consider them when making a team because so many of the common sets nearer to the top of the ladder beat it. Charizard X/Y (with Will-o-wisp), Mold Breaker (Gyarados-Mega and Haxorus, among others), and Teravolt (Kyu-B) are common enough that level 1 FEAR things all lose to many other things on the ladder, so you won't see them very much. Also, things that are Steel type like Mawile and Aegislash (and Specs Steelix Thisisafake name) pretty much wall these Sturdy abusers because they can't be poisoned. Alternatively, you could Trick or Switcheroo them a Choice item, locking them into Toxic/Endeavor, depending on which set you are facing. Or just Knock Off their Berry Juice.
However, I believe that focus sashes should not be unbanned. This is all just me theorymonning because I've never played when they weren't banned, but I'm going to try to address all of the arguments presented.
In response to the Charizard/Greninja thing: These pokemon are really strong, obviously. They hardly take any skill to use and just destroy what's in their path. However, they are not without checks. Charizard always loses to Kyurem Black, and Greninja always loses to Chansey/Blissey. Now I understand these are very specific counters, but they are also very common in the current metagame. Chansey/Blissey is the reason the top of the ladder has practically no special attackers (especially Charizard Y), and Kyurem Black is a check to many common threats not named Mawile. Also, since I've started playing 1v1, I've noticed that the game is more or less rock-paper-scissors in terms of what you get put up against, because if you're using Mawile and you get put up against Kyurem Black, you win. However, if you're using Mawile, and you get put up against Entei/Charizard, it's an instant lose pretty much. The best way that I've found to ladder is you play 10 games with a certain set, and after that you analyze what you saw, and switch to a set that beats most of them. Focus Sashes are not going to fix this Rock/Paper/Scissors style play, and if anything, make it more like this.
One more thing about Greninja: It could easily run Water Shuriken to get through these sashes, making them no less broken than before.
Focus Sashes are like Sturdy as an item, meaning you can have another ability in addition to a pseudo-Sturdy.
I know I'm theorymonning, and that's why I propose we test this. However, I don't think we should test it on the main ladder, as that could affect a lot of people's scores as they adapt to the new metagame. I believe that, in the style of OU suspect tests, there should be a separate ladder for 1v1 with Sashes, temporarily.
Just my 2 cents.
However, I believe that focus sashes should not be unbanned. This is all just me theorymonning because I've never played when they weren't banned, but I'm going to try to address all of the arguments presented.
In response to the Charizard/Greninja thing: These pokemon are really strong, obviously. They hardly take any skill to use and just destroy what's in their path. However, they are not without checks. Charizard always loses to Kyurem Black, and Greninja always loses to Chansey/Blissey. Now I understand these are very specific counters, but they are also very common in the current metagame. Chansey/Blissey is the reason the top of the ladder has practically no special attackers (especially Charizard Y), and Kyurem Black is a check to many common threats not named Mawile. Also, since I've started playing 1v1, I've noticed that the game is more or less rock-paper-scissors in terms of what you get put up against, because if you're using Mawile and you get put up against Kyurem Black, you win. However, if you're using Mawile, and you get put up against Entei/Charizard, it's an instant lose pretty much. The best way that I've found to ladder is you play 10 games with a certain set, and after that you analyze what you saw, and switch to a set that beats most of them. Focus Sashes are not going to fix this Rock/Paper/Scissors style play, and if anything, make it more like this.
One more thing about Greninja: It could easily run Water Shuriken to get through these sashes, making them no less broken than before.
Focus Sashes are like Sturdy as an item, meaning you can have another ability in addition to a pseudo-Sturdy.
I know I'm theorymonning, and that's why I propose we test this. However, I don't think we should test it on the main ladder, as that could affect a lot of people's scores as they adapt to the new metagame. I believe that, in the style of OU suspect tests, there should be a separate ladder for 1v1 with Sashes, temporarily.
Just my 2 cents.
You aren't going to KO a lot of mons with just Water Shuriken, js
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-128798207
Shouldn't Sleep be banned in 1v1 as you only have 1 Pokémon to use that too sleeps off!!!
Just banning the "Sleep" inducing moves (and even the ability "Effect Spore") would do the thing but I thing a better Clause can be put up ;p
We can have test for this thing now!
Shouldn't Sleep be banned in 1v1 as you only have 1 Pokémon to use that too sleeps off!!!
Just banning the "Sleep" inducing moves (and even the ability "Effect Spore") would do the thing but I thing a better Clause can be put up ;p
We can have test for this thing now!
I don't think so because :
- Physical Greninja is pretty much garbage
- Water Shuriken isn't OHKOing anything soon, even with a Band
- Hydro Canon + Shuriken means that 1) you have to survive the recharge turn, which is REALLY unlikely 2) you have to give up choice items
EDIT : Speaking of which... Greninja'd
I believe the problem is the general lack of absolutely nuclear special attacker (which is the case in OU, to a much lesser extent though). Bar Pixilate Hyper Beam and Spec Hydro Canon which have some well-known drawbacks, no special move comes close to things like Banded Cube's Outrage. There are no Mawile, DragonDance, Gyarados and Aggron special equivalent. Blissey is great, but it's really rare by now (although I use it 99% of the time). People should try using special sweepers though, as almost nobody bothers with SpDef EVs.
Please don't ask for a ban everytime someone beats you with a gimmick strategy... Umbreon is annoying, but not uncouterable at all (just Taunt/Magic Coat it and you're home).
Actually, all you have to do is to pick another mon if you keep running in counters. It's always a bit annoying, but you should adapt yourself to the metagame, not the other way around...
Case
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-128822468
I'm pretty new to the whole competitive scene, but how can porygon z use Hyper beam twice in a row like this?
his 3 abilities from what I know don't allow it and I don't know of an item that allows it. any idea?
Thanks,
Toeko
and I am sorry If I posted this in the wrong spot
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-128822468
I'm pretty new to the whole competitive scene, but how can porygon z use Hyper beam twice in a row like this?
his 3 abilities from what I know don't allow it and I don't know of an item that allows it. any idea?
Thanks,
Toeko
and I am sorry If I posted this in the wrong spot
When you use a protecting move, it doesn't make it recharge, the simulator just gets confused and says it does.
This happened because Hyper Beam only recharges if it actually hits the opponent, since you used Spiky Shield it didn't make contact so it didn't have to recharge.
edit: Peef Rimgar is a Greninjask
Yeah, sorry, I was thinking of low level Focus Sash abusers. Ignore that tiny bit of my argument.
I've unbanned all the banned moves because there are no more ties on PS.
FINAL GAMBIT ACCELGOR GO!
Edit: This is to test the moves in 1v1. It will be decided later on if anything should be banned.
FINAL GAMBIT ACCELGOR GO!
Edit: This is to test the moves in 1v1. It will be decided later on if anything should be banned.
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Final Gambit Scarf Victini is horribly overcentralizing... Outside of Blissey, Sturdy and Ghost Type, almost nothing can beat it.
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my current set:
Protean (Greninja) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 60 Atk / 252 SAtk / 196 Spd
Rash Nature
- Hidden Power [Steel] (because hydro cannon alone sometimes can't beat chad-Y, also guarantee win against WP Dragonite)
- Shadow Sneak (good vs sturdy, final gambit, slaking) / Ice Beam (HP steel > ice beam for dragonite)
- Hydro Cannon
- Grass Knot
instant lose: scarf kyu-b or alike, mega gengar, mega venusaur (even i can predict all spore/leech seed/sludge bomb i still die from LO recoil due to synthesis) and some fear set
Protean (Greninja) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 60 Atk / 252 SAtk / 196 Spd
Rash Nature
- Hidden Power [Steel] (because hydro cannon alone sometimes can't beat chad-Y, also guarantee win against WP Dragonite)
- Shadow Sneak (good vs sturdy, final gambit, slaking) / Ice Beam (HP steel > ice beam for dragonite)
- Hydro Cannon
- Grass Knot
instant lose: scarf kyu-b or alike, mega gengar, mega venusaur (even i can predict all spore/leech seed/sludge bomb i still die from LO recoil due to synthesis) and some fear set
I really don't like the unbanning of Final Gambit and Explosion in the meta. They are overpowered, hard to counter, and a cheap set. As Yozora was saying, it's very overcentralizing and making the meta not fun anymore. Also, Perish Song could potentially be very threatening but I haven't seen any uses of it yet.
goodknife
I don't see how HP Steel is an instant win vs Dragonite.
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Steel vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 60-71 (18.5 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Also, Shadow Sneak can't hit Slaking at all because Slaking is normal type, and Shadow Sneak is ghost.
This set seems to lose to a lot of things in the current metagame and I don't see what it beats that, say, CB Dragonite doesn't.
goodknife
I don't see how HP Steel is an instant win vs Dragonite.
252+ SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Steel vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 60-71 (18.5 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
Also, Shadow Sneak can't hit Slaking at all because Slaking is normal type, and Shadow Sneak is ghost.
This set seems to lose to a lot of things in the current metagame and I don't see what it beats that, say, CB Dragonite doesn't.
He just wants to become a Ghost type, be immune to Slaking's move. Make him loaf around and profit.
Yo I think the move final gambit needs to be banned from 1 v 1. It sort of has the same mechanics as self destruct and explode, and at the moment too many people are running choice scarfed victinis with final gambit with 404hp and they're basically killing themselves with final gambit but being rewarded with wins. 2 things should be done, either final gambit be nerfed and a tie is provided because it sort of makes sense, because there is no clear victor if both pokemon faint [which also occurs from a death from recoil damage] or final gambit be banned from 1 v 1 because it has the same mechanics as explode and self destruct, a sacrifice move in all essence. It just sort of defeats the object of 1v1 where the aim is to win over your opponent, with moves like final gambit you're rewarded for fainting yourself and the opponent
Please reban Final Gambit and Explosion, the meta is now completely broken.
I've got the same issue as what everyone else is saying: explosion and final gambit completely over centralize the metagame to an extent that nothing else can. The only things that can deal with scarf victini that packs final gambit is a faster scarfer, kyurem-b, blissey, mawile's sucker punch, or a sturdy user. So in my opinion, final gambit and explosion have ZERO place in a balanced metagame!