Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

[Mymble]

Having now voted to ban Shuckle, I feel it is time to explain my reasoning. I don't personally feel that Shuckle is broken, in that it provides unstoppable support. However, becuase of how reliably it can set up Sticky Webs it can support a team of five wall breakers with little synergy. It does this so well that with very little knowledge or skill players are able to win games they probably shouldn't. This is possible because of how there is pretty much one Sticky Webs team with a few minor variations in the Pokemon on them. While being completely cookie-cutter should be a problem, Shuckle Sticky Webs is so effective that being identicle to every other Shuckle Sticky Webs team doesn't massively effect its viability. On top of that it severly limits what other offensive teams can run, while stall gives zero shits about Shuckle it still has to go up against five wall breakers, not impossible to beat by any means but bot quite as easy as other posts suggest.

tl;dr: Voted to ban. Shuckle limits team building, is over centralising, and allows less knowledgable and skilled players to win games they shouldn't.

 

[termi]

The teams I met on the suspect ladder can be divided into 3 categories: fat teams, web teams, shit teams.

That's not even true Spikes HO is still very good :[

Also Molk is a faget and didn't tell you yet but apparently the amount of votes required for Shuckle to be banned has been reached so you can say goodbye to your favorite turtle (inb4 "b-but torkoal is muh fav turtle ;-;")

 

[Max Carvalho]

I don't really think Leavanny will rise too much if Shuckle does indeed get banned. The main difference between the two is that Shuckle gets Stealth Rock while Leavanny does not. Shuckle also has enough bulk to set up both Stealth Rock and Sticky Web. Because Stealth Rock are pretty much required for every team, you're going to need something else on your team to provide the Stealth Rock. With Leavanny+Stealth Rock support+Doublade, that only leaves you with 3 potential offensive sweepers which restricts team building much more than Shuckle does. Shuckle does basically what a Sticky Web user+another Stealth Rock user in one Pokemon, giving you one more critical team slot. Shuckle is such a good support in this regard that it can accomplish the roles of two other Pokemon normally. Also, if you are resorting to two different Pokemon setting up SR+Web, it opens up more possibilities of your opponent getting rid of the hazards since you need to use a turn to switch to get the other hazards up.

I can see Doublade getting Stealth Rock in ORAS. The main advantage Leavanny has over Shuckle is that (often) Leavanny isn't a sitting duck late-game. Or a death fodder, which is useful but after Shuckle made its job and assuming you have Doublade and Braviary you won't have much trouble (most matches) to keep the hazards in field and Shuckle won't be worth to nothing the rest of the game. Also its very unlikely that Shuckle set up its hazards twice. And Leavanny has got Speed, you don't need to give it a freaking Mental Herb. Ofc, Leavanny has good Atk stat, allowing it to do solid damage to threats in the tier like this: 252 Atk Life Orb Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 270-320 (111.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. 52 Atk Life Orb Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 390-460 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (like fucking kidding me 75% after rocks.). Leavanny also benefits from its own hazards; for instance, it outspeeds Delphox and KOes with Knock Off. If you want to Leavanny have yet a more supportive role you can also use it with Heal Bell and Synthesis tho Aromatisse does it way better.

My thoughts on Shuckle:

• The easiest style to play in RU is indeed HO Sticky Web. I played with this team in the suspect test ladder and I kept at least one hazard in almost all matches. Sticky Web sucks against stall teams, but Stealth Rock is still necessary.
• Shuckle by itself isn't broken, no one said it here, what is broken is its combo Stealth Rock + Sticky Web. Shuckle can easily set up at least one of these hazards (if you can set up only one Sr for stall teams, Sticky web against Offensive teams.). Nothing can KO Shuckle because of its bulk, and a smart player isn't going to set up because of Encore. You can only hope for a flinch from things like Yanmega and Durant or lead with a hazard remover.
• Shuckle restricts teambuilding and blablabla overcentralizate blablabla everyone talked about this here.
• Stall teams can't easily win against a team with Shuckle and Hitmonlee, Doublade, Braviary, Yanmega, Exploud and dat shit. They are incredibly strong all alone and Shuckle can act as a sleep absorber against a Amonguss as against most stall teams Shuckle is going to survive mid- and late-game. btw 204 EVs in speed outspeed Amoonguss but the turtle is going to be banned who cares.
• Alomomola for ubers.

That's it let's see how is the metagame without Shuckle. As Aladynn stated, we can always retest it when RU reaches some point.

 

[Ningildo]

That's not even true Spikes HO is still very good :[

Also Molk is a faget and didn't tell you yet but apparently the amount of votes required for Shuckle to be banned has been reached so you can say goodbye to your favorite turtle (inb4 "b-but torkoal is muh fav turtle ;-;")

#FuckleTheShuckle

 

[Turtleye]

That's not even true Spikes HO is still very good :[

Also Molk is a faget and didn't tell you yet but apparently the amount of votes required for Shuckle to be banned has been reached so you can say goodbye to your favorite turtle (inb4 "b-but torkoal is muh fav turtle ;-;")

Torterra is the best turtle we all know that :(

I can see Doublade getting Stealth Rock in ORAS. The main advantage Leavanny has over Shuckle is that (often) Leavanny isn't a sitting duck late-game. Or a death fodder, which is useful but after Shuckle made its job and assuming you have Doublade and Braviary you won't have much trouble (most matches) to keep the hazards in field and Shuckle won't be worth to nothing the rest of the game. Also its very unlikely that Shuckle set up its hazards twice. And Leavanny has got Speed, you don't need to give it a freaking Mental Herb. Ofc, Leavanny has good Atk stat, allowing it to do solid damage to threats in the tier like this: 252 Atk Life Orb Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 270-320 (111.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. 52 Atk Life Orb Leavanny Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 390-460 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (like fucking kidding me 75% after rocks.). Leavanny also benefits from its own hazards; for instance, it outspeeds Delphox and KOes with Knock Off. If you want to Leavanny have yet a more supportive role you can also use it with Heal Bell and Synthesis tho Aromatisse does it way better.

I'm not sure on Leavanny, as it plays differently than Shuckle does. It also gets raped by Cinccino and is rather frail, so fast taunters like Archeops and Cobalion laugh in your face since you're almost restricted to useing Focus Sash as item.

 

[dwarfstar]

Torterra is the best turtle we all know that :(

Truth.

I'm not sure on Leavanny, as it plays differently than Shuckle does. It also gets raped by Cinccino and is rather frail, so fast taunters like Archeops and Cobalion laugh in your face since you're almost restricted to useing Focus Sash as item.

It certainly does have a lot more trouble staying alive than Shuckle does and is at a disadvantage due to the lack of SR. It bears mentioning, though, that you can use Magic Coat on a predicted Taunt to force the Taunter to attack next turn, giving you the time you need to set up Webs. Magic Coat can also reflect SR from a Cobalion lead if you predict right, which could be fun.

 

[EonX]

I still see Leavanny being effective enough to keep Sticky Web teams alive and kicking. While Shuckle has the titanic defenses, it's not nearly as easy to set up on Leavanny. Magic Coat can still reflect Taunt, though it's quite prediction-reliant. One thing I can really see coming up is SR+SD Cobalion. So many people are making a big deal out of the fact that Shuckle has both Rocks and Webs, but I honestly see a lot of Web Offense teams just using Cobalion. It can set Rocks and benefits from Webs itself, as now Jolteon, Superpower Durant, Heliolisk, and grounded Scarfers (Emboar and Delphox primarily) are all slower than it. It can still run SD as it doesn't terribly miss Stone Edge (though it does make things trickier against Moltres) as Iron Head still hits most of the targets for neutral damage (Braviary, Yanmega, Golbat, etc.) So yeah, I can totally see SR+SD Cobalion becoming a thing on Web Offense teams now as it doesn't really strip them of an offensive mon.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

EonX I can totally see SR+SD Cobalion becoming a thing on Web Offense teams now as it doesn't really strip them of an offensive mon.

Please don't tell me that Cobalion will be under suspect :(

We want more mons in RU, why the only mon we got from NU is Sigilyph (that annoying mon again). I hope more mons drop from UU based on usage and NU ban list grows. ;)

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

You can use anything from NU in RU if you want, you know

 

[LightningLuxray]

Please don't tell me that Cobalion will be under suspect :(

We want more mons in RU, why the only mon we got from NU is Sigilyph (that annoying mon again). I hope more mons drop from UU based on usage and NU ban list grows. ;)

Fletchinder and Magneton came up too :o

They weren't banned though, just came up through usage.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Fletchinder and Magneton came up too :o

They weren't banned though, just came up through usage.

Yup, and I like that LighteningLuxray. I want to use primeape so it comes up through usage ;) Defiant Primeape, competing with braviary ;)

 

[Turtleye]

You can use pokemon from NU, just saying.

Also as it is now, Houndoom has 3.01% usage in UU so it might drop :O

 

[Lord Death Man]

Leavanny has a host of other problems separating it from Shuckle. The lack of stealth rocks in particular gives a huge edge to Moltres and Fletchinder, both of which already hurt web teams pretty badly and aren't afraid of Stealth Rock + SD Cobalion (and Cobalion doesn't have the power to be threatening without Swords Dance) or really any common SR setter except Rhyperior, who struggles to find a niche on Sticky Web teams. It's also pretty vulnerable to set-up, though whatever tries to set up has to be sure Leavanny doesn't 2hko, but that still leaves a whole host of dangerous things that can grab momentum in a way they couldn't against Shuckle HO.

Leavanny is easy enough to get rid of, and rapid spin and defog are easy enough to get out (though you may have to give up your hazard remover, once Leavanny is out of the way it's a non-issue) that I can't see it being anywhere near the level of Shuckle HO.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

You can use pokemon from NU, just saying.

Also as it is now, Houndoom has 3.01% usage in UU so it might drop :O

Delphox > Houndoom :(

 

[Lord Death Man]

Delphox > Houndoom :(

Houndoom is more of a dangerous mixed attacker than a special sweeper. It also traps and kills Delphox and has a safer switch-in on a lot of dangerous RU threats than Delphox and can't be trapped and killed with Pursuit and it's also not sucker punch weak. They fill completely different niches.

 

[SlottedPig]

While I still don't think shuckle is too good for the meta (whereas froslass definitely was), I have come to realize that it makes the game unhealthily matchup based, as shuckle offense has a significant advantage against offensive and even balanced teams lacking powerful, speedy pokemon immune to SW -- and while I don't think these pokemon are necessarily obscure, the shuckle factor definitely does limit team building. In addition, shuckle team archetypes have become rather stale because shuckle is nearly always used with braviary + doublade as well as hitmonlee (which doesn't really protect the hazards but there's really no reason not to run hitmonlee on SW). I don't think it's quite the level of metagame cancer that froslass and deo-d were / are, but I do believe the metagame would be a lot better without SW copypasta teams everywhere. As such, I voted to ban it although it's probably too late to have made a difference anyways.

Also, I think it's safe to say that if houndoom drops, NP mega houndoom will give delphox (whose best set is LO calm mind) a lot of competition. Better typing, setup, speed, the ability to run a utility move in the fourth slot, and the fact that it doesn't have to use a life orb (which adds up a lot with sr damage) will all give houndoom edges over delphox.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Houndoom is more of a dangerous mixed attacker than a special sweeper. It also traps and kills Delphox and has a safer switch-in on a lot of dangerous RU threats than Delphox and can't be trapped and killed with Pursuit and it's also not sucker punch weak. They fill completely different niches.

well after your explanation, I kind of like Houndoom as the premier Delphox counter ;) thanks. It can also counter Mega-banette (WoW) and threaten Doublade in the current meta (all the more reason to run sacred sword on doublade, tho it cant live to land a blow).

75 / 90 / 50 / 110 / 80 / 95
Flash Fire / Unnerve / Early Bird

75 / 90 / 90 / 140 / 90 / 115
Solar power

There is no denying that Mega-Houndoom will bring more diversity, looking forward to more drops ~_~

 

[Talpr0ne]

Wtf are Infernape and Blissey being THAT detrimental on Houndoom's performance in UU? I recall the dog being one of the strongest mons in UU before June.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Wtf are Infernape and Blissey being THAT detrimental on Houndoom's performance in UU? I recall the dog being one of the strongest mons in UU before June.

What was the set that was frequently used TalprOne? a Mixed set with pursuit?

 

[Skankovich]

Idek, I mean Mega Houndoom 2hkos Blissey after rocks under sun, and infernape is 1hko'd, I don't get why people have suddenly stopped using it.

 

[termi]

Wtf are Infernape and Blissey being THAT detrimental on Houndoom's performance in UU? I recall the dog being one of the strongest mons in UU before June.

Apparently so. Problem is that in RU, Mega Houndoom, with its excellent speed tier, probably will end up being broken, whereas regular Houndoom faces very stiff competition from Zoroark, which sacrifices some bulk (which barely matters on either mon) and a Fire STAB for better offensive stats and the ability to run way more different sets thanks to a better offensive movepool. Houndoom does have a niche in completely countering Delphox though, so that's at least something, but idk how it will fare in ru just yet.

What was the set that was frequently used TalprOne? a Mixed set with pursuit?

iirc Nasty Plot was the set it was running pretty much all the time. What used to make it so dangerous was that it had great coverage with its STABs alone, leaving one moveslot open to run whatever it wanted (a HP to OHKO specific threats, Destiny Bond for a last ditch kill, Taunt to set up on walls, Sucker Punch to pick off weakened threats etc). Guess drops like Goodra, Infernape and Blissey just made it that much harder for him to successfully sweep.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Apparently so. Problem is that in RU, Mega Houndoom, with its excellent speed tier, probably will end up being broken.

iirc Nasty Plot was the set it was running pretty much all the time. What used to make it so dangerous was that it had great coverage with its STABs alone, leaving one moveslot open to run whatever it wanted (a HP to OHKO specific threats, Destiny Bond for a last ditch kill, Taunt to set up on walls, Sucker Punch to pick off weakened threats etc). Guess drops like Goodra, Infernape and Blissey just made it that much harder for him to successfully sweep.

I don't agree that it will be broken as much. Not with sharpedo, Gligar and Lee to stop it from sweeping.

Yes, it will have a great offensive presense and Delphox & Moltres would go out of fashion. But there are ways to check Mega Houndoom. It fails to OHKO Gligar even with HP ice (running timid) without boost, and uninvested gligar can do 63.6 - 76% on it. Leaving it to be in the KO range of Mach punch Lee.

and Yes, the RU meta will centralize around it for a while; but I don't see it being broken. Anyways, thats just mho. But I hope it stays around, as the meta needs to grow a bit wider and it might make weather more viable in the RU meta.

p.s: Thanks for informing about its sets. I definitely would like to try out the NP set with sucker punch.

 

[termi]

I don't agree that it will be broken as much. Not with sharpedo, Gligar and Lee to stop it from sweeping.

Yes, it will have a great offensive presense and Delphox & Moltres would go out of fashion. But there are ways to check Mega Houndoom. It fails to OHKO Gligar even with HP ice (running timid) without boost, and uninvested gligar can do 63.6 - 76% on it. Leaving it to be in the KO range of Mach punch Lee.

and Yes, the RU meta will centralize around it for a while; but I don't see it being broken. Anyways, thats just mho. But I hope it stays around, as the meta needs to grow a bit wider and it might make weather more viable in the RU meta.

Why would you let Mega Houndoom switch in on a Gligar though. The idea is that you switch it in on smth that can't hurt it (like Delphox) and then set up. The only relevant M-Houndoom vs Gligar calc is:

+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 360-424 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Counters??

Also, any fast offensive mon has checks, but that doesn't suddenly make every single one of them managable. Mega Houndoom is very fast, meaning that only Jolteon, Scarfers and powerful Mach Punch users can revenge kill it. Mega Houndoom is strong, base 140 SpA doesn't need a boosting item to hit the majority of the tier hard and after an NP its damage output becomes very respectable. Something that people seem to be forgetting though, is that Mega Houndoom is pretty bulky. 75/90/90 might not be incredible without investment, but it is just enough for this to happen:

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 195-229 (67 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As opposed to this:

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Houndoom: 307-361 (105.4 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And it generally makes him much more capable of setting up on a lot of threats. Don't underestimate Mega Houndoom, is all I'm saying. There aren't many mons that can reliably tank a +2 STAB move and hit back hard enough to KO.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

I don't agree that it will be broken as much. Not with sharpedo, Gligar and Lee to stop it from sweeping.

Yes, it will have a great offensive presense and Delphox & Moltres would go out of fashion. But there are ways to check Mega Houndoom. It fails to OHKO Gligar even with HP ice (running timid) without boost, and uninvested gligar can do 63.6 - 76% on it. Leaving it to be in the KO range of Mach punch Lee.

and Yes, the RU meta will centralize around it for a while; but I don't see it being broken. Anyways, thats just mho. But I hope it stays around, as the meta needs to grow a bit wider and it might make weather more viable in the RU meta.

p.s: Thanks for informing about its sets. I definitely would like to try out the NP set with sucker punch.

After trying Sucker Punch Mega Houndoom (in UU) I gotta say that it is kinda shit and not worth running, 90 attack without boosting item is really weak, and if your opponent surprise you with a surprise substitute you could find yourself in trouble. Instead run Flame Charge. After 1 Flame Charge it should be able to outspeed everything in the tier. As shown above it also has an ok-ish amount of bulk to survive even SE STAB priority, added to its sucker punch resistance, it will be extremely hard to RK at +1 speed.

 

[PowerStyler]

Idek, I mean Mega Houndoom 2hkos Blissey after rocks under sun, and infernape is 1hko'd, I don't get why people have suddenly stopped using it.

Drought being banned from UU might have something to do with it.

Calcs without sun:
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 147-174 (20.5 - 24.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 125-147 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 66-78 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO

It'll definitely be a threat in RU (assuming it drops, that is), but it should be manageable, especially in a tier with Sharpedo and Hitmonlee on every other team.

Obligatory Alomomola for Ubers.